How have Christians come to interpret "Lucifer" as the devil?

Joined
Jul 20, 2019
Messages
1,750
What do you understand by the concept of “midrash”?
Classical Jewish Rabbinical exegesis (passed through tradition) within their sacred literature, contained within a larger genre in Judaism which classifies as "Torah". Their notion of being Written Torah (Pentateuch) and Oral Torah (Talmud - in which Midrash is a stem of).
 






Red Sky at Morning

Superstar
Joined
Mar 15, 2017
Messages
9,344
Classical Jewish Rabbinical exegesis (passed through tradition) within their sacred literature, contained within a larger genre in Judaism which classifies as "Torah". Their notion of being Written Torah (Pentateuch) and Oral Torah (Talmud - in which Midrash is a stem of).
Well, the Bible is neither a Protestant book or a Catholic book, it is primarily a Jewish book, written within a Jewish interpretive framework. I say Jesus and not Rabbinic as that was developed later, starting with Ribaz. Getting to the original interpretive approach of the authorship and readership of the Bible is a great place to begin to understand it’s messages.

p.s. Seeing the message is scripture is not just an intellectual thing, otherwise Jews reading Isaiah 53 would all become Christians!!!

 






Last edited:
Joined
Jul 20, 2019
Messages
1,750
Well, the Bible is neither a Protestant book or a Catholic book, it is primarily a Jewish book, written within a Jewish interpretive framework. I say Jesus and not Rabbinic as that was developed later, starting with Ribaz. Getting to the original interpretive approach of the authorship and readership of the Bible is a great place to begin to understand it’s messages.

p.s. Seeing the message is scripture is not just an intellectual thing, otherwise Jews reading Isaiah 53 would all become Christians!!!

Well no, not for Christians. Christians interpret the "old testament" as a Christian book and not the other way around.

As you also said with Isaiah 53, if Christians had any concern for exegesis they would clearly know that Isaiah 53 is about the persecution of the Israelites, which is by extension the narrative of Jews and Judaism. An obvious example of Isaiah 53 repeating itself last century was the Halocaust.

As I've already made it clear to you before, the book of Exodus makes it pretty clear that the Israelites are considered "God's firstborn son".
 






Joined
Jul 20, 2019
Messages
1,750
Also the book of Job also plays into the overall message of Isaiah 53, it's not an isolated chapter it's all throughout the Old Testament (Tanakh)
 






Red Sky at Morning

Superstar
Joined
Mar 15, 2017
Messages
9,344
Well no, not for Christians. Christians interpret the "old testament" as a Christian book and not the other way around.

As you also said with Isaiah 53, if Christians had any concern for exegesis they would clearly know that Isaiah 53 is about the persecution of the Israelites, which is by extension the narrative of Jews and Judaism. An obvious example of Isaiah 53 repeating itself last century was the Halocaust.

As I've already made it clear to you before, the book of Exodus makes it pretty clear that the Israelites are considered "God's firstborn son".
Michael S. Heiser once said that debate is easy and research is hard.

First, a more succinct argument and counter-argument on the OP...


Second, a great study on Hebrew interpretation, 30 minutes in it gets to the principle of the way the connections and parallels in scripture are essential to a fuller and more complete understanding.

 






Joined
Jul 20, 2019
Messages
1,750
Michael S. Heiser once said that debate is easy and research is hard.

First, a more succinct argument and counter-argument on the OP...


Second, a great study on Hebrew interpretation, 30 minutes in it gets to the principle of the way the connections and parallels in scripture are essential to a fuller and more complete understanding.

Why do you still not get that Isaiah 14 is not ambiguous?
 






Red Sky at Morning

Superstar
Joined
Mar 15, 2017
Messages
9,344
Why do you still not get that Isaiah 14 is not ambiguous?
I feel comfortable with the concept of dual meanings in scripture. They are numerous and reveal the hand of a divine author, not just the immediate context of the writer and the political circumstances of that time.

 






Red Sky at Morning

Superstar
Joined
Mar 15, 2017
Messages
9,344
P.s. Another example of a dual meaning, this time from John 11...

47Then gathered the chief priests and the Pharisees a council, and said, What do we? for this man doeth many miracles. 48If we let him thus alone, all men will believe on him: and the Romans shall come and take away both our place and nation. 49And one of them, namedCaiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all, 50Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not. 51And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation; 52And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.
 






Joined
Jul 20, 2019
Messages
1,750
P.s. Another example of a dual meaning, this time from John 11...

47Then gathered the chief priests and the Pharisees a council, and said, What do we? for this man doeth many miracles. 48If we let him thus alone, all men will believe on him: and the Romans shall come and take away both our place and nation. 49And one of them, namedCaiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all, 50Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not. 51And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation; 52And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.
Dual meaning? This verse is clearly a "prophecy" about Jesus warning of his own death according to the writer of John. What else is it alluding to other than Jesus being killed?
This has no relevance to the theory you are trying to claim about Isaiah 14.
 






Red Sky at Morning

Superstar
Joined
Mar 15, 2017
Messages
9,344
Dual meaning? This verse is clearly a "prophecy" about Jesus warning of his own death according to the writer of John. What else is it alluding to other than Jesus being killed?
This has no relevance to the theory you are trying to claim about Isaiah 14.
Well, I have linked to the various perspectives compared, formed my own view and shared it as clearly as I have the skill for. You are welcome to make your own mind up on the topic. At present, I think our perspectives on the Bible are simply too different to find common ground on the question.
 






Top