How have Christians come to interpret "Lucifer" as the devil?

[SquaredCircle]

Read Isaiah 14, the whole chapter for the first time in your life please

Till the veil of the Welkin is upon us again my friend ! The sun is upon us and all bad Wizards should be off to there slumber . Lol ! Good night my friend

 

[SquaredCircle]

No, the thing is these Christians claim that there beliefs are based upon the Bible and this instance is a glaring example of them putting their fingers in their ears and screaming "ladedeladododod"

Their concept of lucifer is not supported by the Bible. This is the main point, that the text of Isaiah 14 says something entirely different from their fantasy ideas or theories about the 12th verse in isolation.

The assumption is that if they claim the Bible is the sole source of authority but believe such things that are literally nowhere to be found in the text, what does that show about their reading comprehension and where do such beliefs sit with the rest of Christianity?

I actually grew up believing that Satan used to be an angel called lucifer who was kicked out of heaven and fell to earth, only later in my adult years did I discover that it wasn't even a mainstream belief in Christianity and from just reading the chapter one can see with your own eyes the unadulterated truth that it's speaking about the king that it polemicizes against.

Sunday school theology at its best ! Sola Scriptura is as it does produce lunatics !
If these people studied the history and the contextual language of the bible as it is taught in 95% of Christian and Secular Schools their whole world would implode !

 

[SquaredCircle]

No, the thing is these Christians claim that their beliefs are based upon the Bible and this instance is a glaring example of them putting their fingers in their ears and screaming "ladedeladododod"

Their concept of lucifer is not supported by the Bible. This is the main point, that the text of Isaiah 14 says something entirely different from their fantasy ideas or theories about the 12th verse in isolation.

The assumption is that if they claim the Bible is the sole source of authority but believe such things that are literally nowhere to be found in the text, what does that show about their reading comprehension and where do such beliefs sit with the rest of Christianity?

I actually grew up believing that Satan used to be an angel called lucifer who was kicked out of heaven and fell to earth, only later in my adult years did I discover that it wasn't even a mainstream belief in Christianity and from just reading the chapter one can see with your own eyes the unadulterated truth that it's speaking about the king that it polemicizes against.

That reply was to our debater and not you ! Lol the one about Gandalf lol

 

[Infinityloop]

Sunday school theology at its best ! Sola Scriptura is as it does produce lunatics !
If these people studied the history and the contextual language of the bible as it is taught in 95% of Christian and Secular Schools their whole world would implode !

True stuff, I've already tackled Sola Scriptura and the cognitive dissonance (of which they've provided innumerable examples of) of Protestants with the Catholic church before on here but you're right, I find it difficult to accept that a lot of the people tying behind their computer screens in these threads are grown adults, it baffles my mind.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Your call of theories being unbiblical is no different than refuting the existence of Gandalf , and me calling it UN-Lord of the Ringical ! Sounds insane right ?
Your evidence is self supporting! No one here is asking for your dead mothers pension money ! We just want a dialectic other than a faith required book for it to be evidence! Is that over the line to ask of you ?

I think that in discussing the OP, @Infinityloop is right in looking for internal rather than external evidence.

So much of this thread comes down to the way you read the Bible, and that is where the point of divergence is.

Perhaps an eschatological example might shed some light...

Preterists take the view of prophecy as a checklist (once a short term fulfilment is demonstrated, no further fulfilment are indicated)

Futurists see it as a pattern, with possibilities of short, medium and perhaps ultimate fulfillments.

Conversations on this topic abound, but for the purpose of this example, @Infinityloop takes an interpretational position with a preterist style, whilst I take a futurist style. But that’s another can of worms...

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Sunday school theology at its best ! Sola Scriptura is as it does produce lunatics !
If these people studied the history and the contextual language of the bible as it is taught in 95% of Christian and Secular Schools their whole world would implode !

The broad way vs the narrow way.

“Fear” or good advice? People here are choosing. Choose wisely!

Luke 13
The Narrow Way

22 And He went through the cities and villages, teaching, and journeying toward Jerusalem. 23 Then one said to Him, “Lord, are there few who are saved?”

And He said to them, 24 “Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able.25 When once the Master of the house has risen up and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock at the door, saying, ‘Lord, Lord, open for us,’ and He will answer and say to you, ‘I do not know you, where you are from,’ 26 then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets.’27 But He will say, ‘I tell you I do not know you, where you are from. Depart from Me, all you workers of iniquity.’ 28 There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, and yourselves thrust out. 29 They will come from the east and the west, from the north and the south, and sit down in the kingdom of God. 30 And indeed there are last who will be first, and there are first who will be last.”

 

[SquaredCircle]

@SquaredCircle
Ok, so here is what you believe:



It is in the same vein as Satan isn't actually Satan but just a mere philosophy. At least you're not saying it is a 'planet' so it means it has a different meaning in your circle.



No, that's because we're longing for spirituality.




You have the blasphemous belief that you're a god which was Satan's old trick in Eden.

"For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."
Genesis 3:5



Here is what Christianity teaches :

"For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil."
John 3:17‭-‬19



Sure in your masonic views of things, everything is becoming better :
More conflict in the middle east, more terror around the world, increase of natural disasters, climate change /more erratic weather, coronavirus.

In your circle, more chaos on earth will utimately leads to a 'novo ordo' so of course you say things are good now.



And now we fall directly to the Antichrist ideology of enlightenment that brought us antitheist regimes.
I'm amazed to see how consistent you are from beginning to end.
Also I don't need to conform, it just happen that Jesus built a Church and i'm somehow part of it despite that I was non-believing in the past.



Your god is lucifer the light bringer and that's not from me but from ex-masons. Look how much times you speak about a light created through human effort when the Bible says it's only darkness plus how esoterism and others occult practices are presented as an abomination in the sight of the Lord.

Sure it looks judgmental because God doesn't negotiate with evil. You believe in the new man that masons call 'Homo Deus', I believe man becomes new in Christ only.

So your telling us from 1917-1948 things were better than today ? During that time period we had the Russian Revolution, WW1 ,WW2 were we saw the use of nuclear weapons , Spanish Flu that killed 50 million world wide , little to no EPA or concern world wide , blacks being hung in America yet , the pinnacle of the industrial revolution and coal use , the Israelis Arab Conflict started , the 1930’s had the most amount of extreme weather in the last 100yrs and somehow you think think we are worse today that then ???????
Your entitled to your own opinions, but not your own facts ! Your statement to me about the world being a worse place today than before is evidence of your evangelical need for their to be complete chaos , wars and rumours of war ,NWO , Devil’s behind all things , demonic behaviour etc etc etc..... , because that is what end time evangelicals are taught , translate and read from their bibles .
Eschatology and the book of Revelation is ignored in Orthodox Christianity for good reasons . Do you know that Eastern Orthodoxy is the oldest and closest ( far from perfect) Christianity to what the original Christian Mystics and Church Fathers taught !
If you read the Ancient Church Fathers you would see that they would have way more in common with Infinityloop and Myself than any post 800 AD theology.
We are not against you , we dont worship evil and peace and Love are at our hearts ! Its just the facts that your pies are so muddled that its really hard to communicate with you !
Now please dont state that modern dispensationalism replaces 1500 years of theology and mysticism.
I left a Orthodoxy , because of the Church and issues with coupling Jesus with Yahweh ! Yet in my heart Ill always be a ancient mystic Orthodox believer of Jesus and his secret cave teachings to just a few ! Amun and may God grant you wisdom to explore the truth of your own faith !
You believe what you were told , because there is no way a serious Christian could be as confused as you about the bible and the language of its history !
Fear is your prime mover and not Love ! You fear punishment more than Loving God !
Hell is your guide , when it should be time ! You only have so many breaths to build your subjective muscles and if your letting the Church and God do all your lifting , how can you you lift yourself from darkness when its the most important ? If you trust in God for all things you have failed . God gave you the whole of its self in you to find it alone and afraid with Truth as a reward.
Faith is built upon results !
If God wanted to do all the heavy lifting himself so he could radiate above man then why create Man !
Dont start in with the fall of man crap either !
We are all God ! Thats the truth Ruth !
The only reason magic and hermetic ways are said to be evil in Bibles and other Holy Books is , because when you dont need the Church , Temple ,See , Sanhedrin etc.... they loose control and gold . You see a free man owes nothing in blood or gold to any God of Love , and blood debt and oath is the sickest form of control and the most evil secret societies that have ever been in form of Jews,Christians and Muslim religions. There is no love or freedom in those 3 religions.
Now wake up and be an adult !

 

[SquaredCircle]

I think that in discussing the OP, @Infinityloop is right in looking for internal rather than external evidence.

So much of this thread comes down to the way you read the Bible, and that is where the point of divergence is.

Perhaps an eschatological example might shed some light...

Preterists take the view of prophecy as a checklist (once a short term fulfilment is demonstrated, no further fulfilment are indicated)

Futurists see it as a pattern, with possibilities of short, medium and perhaps ultimate fulfillments.

Conversations on this topic abound, but for the purpose of this example, @Infinityloop takes an interpretational position with a preterist style, whilst I take a futurist style. But that’s another can of worms...

Prophecy always works and is true when you write it post event !

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Prophecy always works and is true when you write it post event !

Indeed, but then it wouldn’t be prophecy ;-) what do you make of the OT prophecies fulfilled in the NT*?

*Some skeptics claim they were added later to add some veracity, but what of the fragments of NT books in the Qumran caves?

A good book on the subject...

Account Suspended

And another...

Account Suspended

 

[Phithx]

If I may be so bold please, as to state regarding this matter, that this is the Truth; the whole Truth; and nothing but the Truth; so help me God.

Isaiah 14 is referenced in there.

The Way home or face The Fire
1:1 Thousands of Earth years ago, far away, in THIS galaxy, on the Morning Star (Rev. 2:28), the Lord Guardian Of Divinity, King (Malachi 1:14), Ruler and Guardian of the Universe (Sura 23:86), put down a revolution led by Lucifer (Iblis)(Rev. 12:7-9).
1:2 The Morning Star (Venus) is inhabited by immortal “Beings of Light” (Spirit/Energy), whose civilization, based on “pure” love, is zillions of years old.
1:3 Lucifer; now known here on Earth as Satan (the Opposer) the Devil (the Liar/Slanderer)(RED dragon/serpent - Rev. 12:3, 9) from which the word D/evil is derived; because of his selfish and arrogant nature, wanted to over-throw the Lord and to take His place, so that he could rule, and inflict his own selfish opinion and evil desires on the heavens. He encouraged and misled many of the other inhabitants of the Morning Star; whom people on Earth know by the name Angels; to join him and he then started a war, against God (Rev. 12:7 & Isaiah 14:13-14).
1:4 Angels do not carry harps or have wings, they merely have a melodic sounding type of voice and they can fly. The very simple mentality of the people of the early biblical days; who had never seen anything on Earth flying, unless it had wings; led to the myth about angels.
1:5 Lucifer did not declare war and fight with honour, but sneaked around murdering and fought dishonourably (John 8:44 / King of kings’ Bible, John 8:35), as ALL terrorists do.
...

 

[Frank Badfinger]

If you read the Ancient Church Fathers you would see that they would have way more in common with Infinityloop and Myself than any post 800 AD theology.

Yet in my heart Ill always be a ancient mystic Orthodox believer of Jesus and his secret cave teachings to just a few !

So what books would you recommend for beginners to better understand what the Ancient Church Fathers believed?

 

[Infinityloop]

I think that in discussing the OP, @Infinityloop is right in looking for internal rather than external evidence.

So much of this thread comes down to the way you read the Bible, and that is where the point of divergence is.

Perhaps an eschatological example might shed some light...

Preterists take the view of prophecy as a checklist (once a short term fulfilment is demonstrated, no further fulfilment are indicated)

Futurists see it as a pattern, with possibilities of short, medium and perhaps ultimate fulfillments.

Conversations on this topic abound, but for the purpose of this example, @Infinityloop takes an interpretational position with a preterist style, whilst I take a futurist style. But that’s another can of worms...

The passage isn't about Prophecy, you're switching goalposts. Your position is that Isaiah 14:12 proves your Unbiblical belief that Satan was an angel called Lucifer who rebelled against God and fell from heaven. This has to do with pre-Adamic times in your belief.
(which has nothing to do with Prophecy, it has to do with the events before Genesis 2)

And I am proving you that Isaiah 14 explains itself explicitly that it is about the King of Babylon.


Now Red, put on some glasses and read the following passages from Isaiah 14 so that you can get through your head what the chapter is saying:

On the day the Lord gives you relief from your suffering and turmoil and from the harsh labor forced on you, you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon:
How the oppressor has come to an end!
How his fury has ended!
The Lord has broken the rod of the wicked,
the scepter of the rulers,
which in anger struck down peoples
with unceasing blows,
and in fury subdued nations
with relentless aggression.
All the lands are at rest and at peace;
they break into singing.
Even the junipers and the cedars of Lebanon
gloat over you and say,
“Now that you have been laid low,
no one comes to cut us down.”


All your pomp has been brought down to the grave,
along with the noise of your harps;
maggots are spread out beneath you
and worms cover you.
How you have fallen from heaven,
morning star (lucifer), son of the dawn!
You have been cast down to the earth,
you who once laid low the nations!
You said in your heart,
“I will ascend to the heavens;
I will raise my throne
above the stars of God;
I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly,
on the utmost heights of Mount Zaphon.
I will ascend above the tops of the clouds;
I will make myself like the Most High.”
But you are brought down to the realm of the dead,
to the depths of the pit.
Those who see you stare at you,
they ponder your fate:
“Is this the man who shook the earth
and made kingdoms tremble,
the man who made the world a wilderness,
who overthrew its cities
and would not let his captives go home?”


“I will wipe out Babylon’s name and survivors,
her offspring and descendants,”
declares the Lord.
“I will turn her into a place for owls
and into swampland;
I will sweep her with the broom of destruction,”
declares the Lord Almighty.
The Lord Almighty has sworn,

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

The passage isn't about Prophecy, you're switching goalposts. Your position is that Isaiah 14:12 proves your Unbiblical belief that Satan was an angel called Lucifer who rebelled against God and fell from heaven. This has to do with pre-Adamic times in your belief.
(which has nothing to do with Prophecy, it has to do with the events before Genesis 2)

And I am proving you that Isaiah 14 explains itself explicitly that it is about the King of Babylon.


Now Red, put on some glasses and read the following passages from Isaiah 14 so that you can get through your head what the chapter is saying:

On the day the Lord gives you relief from your suffering and turmoil and from the harsh labor forced on you, you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon:
How the oppressor has come to an end!
How his fury has ended!
The Lord has broken the rod of the wicked,
the scepter of the rulers,
which in anger struck down peoples
with unceasing blows,
and in fury subdued nations
with relentless aggression.
All the lands are at rest and at peace;
they break into singing.
Even the junipers and the cedars of Lebanon
gloat over you and say,
“Now that you have been laid low,
no one comes to cut us down.”


All your pomp has been brought down to the grave,
along with the noise of your harps;
maggots are spread out beneath you
and worms cover you.
How you have fallen from heaven,
morning star (lucifer), son of the dawn!
You have been cast down to the earth,
you who once laid low the nations!
You said in your heart,
“I will ascend to the heavens;
I will raise my throne
above the stars of God;
I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly,
on the utmost heights of Mount Zaphon.
I will ascend above the tops of the clouds;
I will make myself like the Most High.”
But you are brought down to the realm of the dead,
to the depths of the pit.
Those who see you stare at you,
they ponder your fate:
“Is this the man who shook the earth
and made kingdoms tremble,
the man who made the world a wilderness,
who overthrew its cities
and would not let his captives go home?”


“I will wipe out Babylon’s name and survivors,
her offspring and descendants,”
declares the Lord.
“I will turn her into a place for owls
and into swampland;
I will sweep her with the broom of destruction,”
declares the Lord Almighty.
The Lord Almighty has sworn,

Higher level symbolic meanings are a repeating theme in scripture (just read Revelation 12). They apply to many of the prophetic passages and also to interesting characters like Joseph who are typologies of Christ as well as historic figures.

The point was simply that the way you read the Bible applies to a range of interpretive possibilities. The kind of analysis that leads to a possible futurist interpretation of prophecy, and of the ability to pick up internal references and themes would also allow you to recognise the extrapolation from the historic king being referenced to those attributes that applied beyond mr that to Lucifer.

Turned the other way, the person who insists Daniel is only referencing Antiochus Epiphanies in Daniel 8 cannot see a valid future application to the Antichrist (referenced in Matthew 24).

The fact that Jesus was able to make the connections from historic to future must mean that in some circumstances at least, these derived references are valid.



Ecclesiastes 1:9
King James Version

9 The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.

 

[Infinityloop]

The point was simply that the way you read the Bible applies to a range of interpretive possibilities. The kind of analysis that leads to a possible futurist interpretation of prophecy, and of the ability to pick up internal references and themes would also allow you to recognise the extrapolation from the historic king being referenced to those attributes that applied beyond mr that to Lucifer.

No, the chapter is more than clear that it is speaking about one man and only that man.

As far as "futurist", no absolutely not.
However just like earlier incidents like the Israelites in Egypt, it is clearly part of an overarching story relating to the Israelites being held captive by an oppressive Pagan dictator and then God helping them out.
The role of Babylon as a symbol is definitely present in the NT and I do acknowledge that, we could see the Israelite's encounters with Babylon as poetically prefiguring future dictatorship, sure, but Isaiah 14 objectively only refers to the King of Babylon and more than explicitly. To create your own narrative over what the text says is Unbiblical.

 

[Infinityloop]

The fact that Jesus was able to make the connections from historic to future must mean that in some circumstances at least, these derived references are valid.

And as far as this, it is a completely different topic but the writers of Matthew Mark Luke and John all did openly quote verses from Isaiah in their books as part of their narration.

 

[Phithx]

Lucifer is the author and king of Babylon (-ian market system): Babble-on; Babylonian Talmud; banksters - magic fake legal tender etc., fractional reserve baking ...

Revelation 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and [I know] the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are NOT, but [are] (Idumeans) the synagogue of Satan.

 

[TokiEl]

God in His book has outed the god on the Temple Mount as one destined for the Pit.


2 Corinthians 4 4The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers so they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

Paul spoke about the god of this age who blinds his followers from the fact that Jesus Christ is the image of God.

Is a god with almost 2 billion followers worthy of an epithet like the god of this age ? Absolutely.

 

[Phithx]

Revelation 18:2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon (the City of Merchants - Market System) the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils (liars), and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

 

[Infinityloop]

God in His book has outed the god on the Temple Mount as one destined for the Pit.


2 Corinthians 4 4The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers so they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

Paul spoke about the god of this age who blinds his followers from the fact that Jesus Christ is the image of God.

Is a god with almost 2 billion followers worthy an epithet like the god of this age ? Absolutely.

This is another great example of eisegesis, trying to make the Bible say (and failing!) what it clearly doesn't say.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

And as far as this, it is a completely different topic but the writers of Matthew Mark Luke and John all did openly quote verses from Isaiah in their books as part of their narration.

What do you understand by the concept of “midrash”?