To the specific question of the OP as set out by @Infinityloop ...
"Is Lucifer Satan? Does the fall of Lucifer describe Satan?"
There is no verse in the Bible that says, “Lucifer is Satan,” but an examination of several passages reveals that Lucifer can be none other than Satan. The fall of Lucifer described in Isaiah 14:12 is likely the same that Jesus referred to in Luke 10:18: "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.” A similar fall is depicted in Ezekiel 28.
Isaiah 14:12–18 describes the fall from heaven of one called “Lucifer,” a name that means “morning star,” “son of the dawn,” “Day Star / Daystar,” or “shining star.” The description of the one referred to shows us it can be none other than Satan. We know from Jesus’ own words in Luke 10 that Satan fell from heaven. So, when Isaiah refers to Lucifer (In Hebrew, helel) being cast down to earth (Isaiah 14:12), it can be none other than Satan. The reason for his fall is found in verses 13 and 14: “You said in your heart, ‘I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly, on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain. I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.’” This has always been Satan’s desire—to be God—and it is the very temptation he used in the garden of Eden to get Eve to disobey God: “You shall be as God” (Genesis 3:5).
Ezekiel 28 is another passage thought to refer to Lucifer/Satan. Although it begins with Ezekiel being commanded by God to “take up a lament concerning the king of Tyre” (v. 12), an evil idolatrous king, it soon becomes clear that the passage is referring as well to the power behind that king—Satan. Verse 13 says he was “in Eden, the garden of God.” Clearly, the king of Tyre was never in Eden. Verse 14 says, “You were anointed as a guardian cherub, for so I ordained you.” Apparently, Lucifer/Satan had a position of guardian angel in heaven “among the fiery stones,” thought to be the shining precious jewels that are seen in other descriptions of heaven (Exodus 24:10; Revelation 21:18–21). Since the king of Tyre was never in heaven, either, this can only be describing Lucifer. The rest of the passage describes the reason he was cast out of heaven. Because of his beauty, his heart became proud and his wisdom was corrupted (Ezekiel 28:17). Pride in his perfection, wisdom, and beauty (v. 12) became the source of his downfall, and God threw him to the earth (v. 17). This was witnessed by the Lord Jesus in heaven before His incarnation (Luke 10:18).
To summarize, Lucifer was cast out of heaven for his sin of pride and his desire to be God. Jesus referred to seeing Satan being cast out of heaven. Therefore, we can conclude that Lucifer and Satan are one and the same.
Dr. Dickason offers a detailed discussion on God's angelic creations and our relationship to them. A thorough outline covering the existence, origins, names, classifications, and ministry of angels is overviewed. Later sections discuss the activity in which Satan and his angels are involved. Their original state and fall, personality, and ultimate destruction is reviewed as well. Dr. Dickason concludes with a summary of the believer's defense against such powers of evil.
Pleae actually read that link, please also read Isaiah 14 for once too (I have posted the entire chapter several times now
It's for you to prove that the King of Babylon in 8th century BCE was "Satan", that you have to validate. So far there has been more than enough conclusive evidence provided in this thread to debunk your Unbiblical nonsense.
It is in the same vein as Satan isn't actually Satan but just a mere philosophy. At least you're not saying it is a 'planet' so it means it has a different meaning in your circle.
The reason that religion is so prevalent is , because it allows the common man to be a passenger rather than a driver of their lives
No, that's because we're longing for spirituality.
we honour God by accepting ourselves as God and not a grovelling set of filthy rags that needs his hand held .
God cares not about what you think his will is ! God wants you to prevail in Light by the imprint of our soul. Once again how can I accept God when we are God ?
"For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil."
John 3:17-19
Does not your eschatology require things to be getting worse in a inverse square from the crucifixion forward ? I would have to say we live in the most civil and peaceful times EVER on earth !
Sure in your masonic views of things, everything is becoming better :
More conflict in the middle east, more terror around the world, increase of natural disasters, climate change /more erratic weather, coronavirus.
In your circle, more chaos on earth will utimately leads to a 'novo ordo' so of course you say things are good now.
In the future people who think this way will be hospitalised for delusion and psychosis !
Your involved in religion, because you need group think and conformation .
I joined secret societies so I could be thrown into fear and darkness and monitored on how I prevail ! If you prevail you become a holder of True Light together with your Fraters .
And now we fall directly to the Antichrist ideology of enlightenment that brought us antitheist regimes.
I'm amazed to see how consistent you are from beginning to end.
Also I don't need to conform, it just happen that Jesus built a Church and i'm somehow part of it despite that I was non-believing in the past.
Now grow up a bit and shut your light off long enough so you learn to create your own Light which God recognises as his and your in one !
God is and is not !
Your god is lucifer the light bringer and that's not from me but from ex-masons. Look how much times you speak about a light created through human effort when the Bible says it's only darkness plus how esoterism and others occult practices are presented as an abomination in the sight of the Lord.
Sure it looks judgmental because God doesn't negotiate with evil. You believe in the new man that masons call 'Homo Deus', I believe man becomes new in Christ only.
I must say that Satan is great at marketing, to make the highest “levels” of attainment and apparent freedom something you can work a lifetime at, only to find yourself trapped at the bottom of a hole of sin and selfishness.
Contrast that with the words of Jesus in John 8...
34Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. 35And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. 36If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
These conversations ser zero purpose if your going to use a book as your one and soul reason for your life !
I would not trust any word of any book as the prime mover ! Books , words etc... are just that and nothing more ! Your free to have any belief in the world as long as it does not exclude others to punishment based on differences with that belief.
You are a fundamentalist person that represses more than you uplift !
You religion will fail you , because Faith is the result of mans fear of Death !
I found God not in religion, but in Me , and that defeated death here and ever after !!! I have no more to converse with you about . You have presented zero proof or examples outside of your beliefs .
Is it ok for me to believe that we are born from Giant space Moths who can only communicate through tiny Japanese girls ? Now before you say no way. I want you to know I own Mothra on Blu Ray so thats all the evidence I need .
Jesus spoke to me and said “ Stay away from my followers, because they are mental “
Also Wigi, I'd like to hear from you why you think that venus isn't a planet, it's a strange position I can't make any sense of. Venus does literally orbit in our solar system. You seem so quick to play apologetics for Pagan Astrotheology for some reason, yet you claim to be a Christian.
It seems, at least from what you've let on, that you're a little too influenced by Albert Pike and clearly haven't read what the Bible says in these matters.
Pleae actually read that link, please also read Isaiah 14 for once too (I have posted the entire chapter several times now
It's for you to prove that the King of Babylon in 8th century BCE was "Satan", that you have to validate. So far there has been more than enough conclusive evidence provided in this thread to debunk your Unbiblical nonsense.
The ability to find liberal Christian commentary on a topic and brandish it as superior learning does not a case make.
The “Jesus Seminar” is another example of “qualified” Christian commentary without the slightest spiritual comprehension!
Rather, it is for you to draw the conclusions you choose, and to understand why you do. It is for those who take a different view to understand why and politely share reasons for that alternate view.
These conversations ser zero purpose if your going to use a book as your one and soul reason for your life !
I would not trust any word of any book as the prime mover ! Books , words etc... are just that and nothing more ! Your free to have any belief in the world as long as it does not exclude others to punishment based on differences with that belief.
You are a fundamentalist person that represses more than you uplift !
You religion will fail you , because Faith is the result of mans fear of Death !
I found God not in religion, but in Me , and that defeated death here and ever after !!! I have no more to converse with you about . You have presented zero proof or examples outside of your beliefs .
Is it ok for me to believe that we are born from Giant space Moths who can only communicate through tiny Japanese girls ? Now before you say no way. I want you to know I own Mothra on Blu Ray so thats all the evidence I need .
Jesus spoke to me and said “ Stay away from my followers, because they are mental “
The ability to find liberal Christian commentary on a topic and brandish it as superior learning does not a case make.
The “Jesus Seminar” is another example of “qualified” Christian commentary without the slightest spiritual comprehension!
Rather, it is for you to draw the conclusions you choose, and to understand why you do. It is for those who take a different view to understand why and politely share reasons for that alternate view.
No matter how much mental gymnastics you do with your theory, even the word "lucifer" itself is blatantly the Latin word for Venus. You can't escape etymology. Considering that the old testament wasn't written in Latin also begs the question why you decide to call it by the Latin word and not by the Hebrew word for venus.
Here's the thing. When you have a chapter that is so straightforward in being a celebratory poem about the fall of the king of Babylon, you have no excuse to make up your own mythology about it. You are adding to the Bible and distorting what it says. Again, you're Unbiblical.
The Bible writers use metaphor a lot. This particular case is a clearly obvious example of it being that it compares the king of Babylon (a man) and his fall from power to a popular planet (thought to be a star in the ancient times because it was bright).
This man thought himself to be better than everyone and according to Isaiah, God kicked his butt.
Read the chapter again it's a celebration of the Babylonian Kings fall. Equating him with the falling star is clever polemical metaphor, seeing how Babylon like other polytheistic cultures had their own deity that represented Venus. Again, this stuff is not vague, it's pretty blatant in the text, you have no reason to make up your own subjective mythology about some "fallen angel" when the text disagrees with you entirely, you're UNBIBLICAL.
The Bible writers use metaphor a lot. This particular case is a clearly obvious example of it being that it compares the king of Babylon (a man) and his fall from power to a popular planet (thought to be a star in the ancient times because it was bright).
This man thought himself to be better than everyone and according to Isaiah, God kicked his butt.
Read the chapter again it's a celebration of the Babylonian Kings fall. Equating him with the falling star is clever polemical metaphor, seeing how Babylon like other polytheistic cultures had their own deity that represented Venus. Again, this stuff is not vague, it's pretty blatant in the text, you have no reason to make up your own subjective mythology about some "fallen angel" when the text disagrees with you entirely, you're UNBIBLICAL.
I love the intelligence Tolkien shows in an exchange between Bilbo and Gandalf in “The Lord of the Rings”
Good Morning!" said Bilbo, and he meant it. The sun was shining, and the grass was very green. But Gandalf looked at him from under long bushy eyebrows that stuck out further than the brim of his shady hat.
"What do you mean?" he said. "Do you wish me a good morning, or mean that it is a good morning whether I want it or not; or that you feel good this morning; or that it is a morning to be good on?"
"All of them at once," said Bilbo. "And a very fine morning for a pipe of tobacco out of doors, into the bargain.
It is in the same vein as Satan isn't actually Satan but just a mere philosophy. At least you're not saying it is a 'planet' so it means it has a different meaning in your circle.
No, that's because we're longing for spirituality.
You have the blasphemous belief that you're a god which was Satan's old trick in Eden.
"For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."
Genesis 3:5
Here is what Christianity teaches :
"For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil."
John 3:17-19
Sure in your masonic views of things, everything is becoming better :
More conflict in the middle east, more terror around the world, increase of natural disasters, climate change /more erratic weather, coronavirus.
In your circle, more chaos on earth will utimately leads to a 'novo ordo' so of course you say things are good now.
And now we fall directly to the Antichrist ideology of enlightenment that brought us antitheist regimes.
I'm amazed to see how consistent you are from beginning to end.
Also I don't need to conform, it just happen that Jesus built a Church and i'm somehow part of it despite that I was non-believing in the past.
Your god is lucifer the light bringer and that's not from me but from ex-masons. Look how much times you speak about a light created through human effort when the Bible says it's only darkness plus how esoterism and others occult practices are presented as an abomination in the sight of the Lord.
Sure it looks judgmental because God doesn't negotiate with evil. You believe in the new man that masons call 'Homo Deus', I believe man becomes new in Christ only.
Im not a Mason nor do I like the Masonic order ! I did not say Im a god ! We are all God ! Do you realise that the analogy of God becoming man in Jesus was so man can become God ???
Have you studied any theology that is not 150 yrs new ?
Your ignorance of the bible and how it came into being is mind blowing !
When was the bible assembled , by who , why , how long did it take , who wrote the books of the bible etc....?
Im far from your enemy. Ive just moved on from sunday school theology and quit condemning people who were different from me in thought .
Maybe some day you will hear your soul that knows the truth beyond your fear based religion and its story books .
Time and Space is very real and to quote one book as the answer to all is subject to great scrutiny!
Im not a Mason nor do I like the Masonic order ! I did not say Im a god ! We are all God ! Do you realise that the analogy of God becoming man in Jesus was so man can become God ???
Have you studied any theology that is not 150 yrs new ?
Your ignorance of the bible and how it came into being is mind blowing !
When was the bible assembled , by who , why , how long did it take , who wrote the books of the bible etc....?
Im far from your enemy. Ive just moved on from sunday school theology and quit condemning people who were different from me in thought .
Maybe some day you will hear your soul that knows the truth beyond your fear based religion and its story books .
Time and Space is very real and to quote one book as the answer to all is subject to great scrutiny!
Saint Germain is the chohan of the 7th ray and a master alchemist of the sacred fire brings the gift of the violet flame of freedom for world transmutation.
Your call of theories being unbiblical is no different than refuting the existence of Gandalf , and me calling it UN-Lord of the Ringical ! Sounds insane right ?
Your evidence is self supporting! No one here is asking for your dead mothers pension money ! We just want a dialectic other than a faith required book for it to be evidence! Is that over the line to ask of you ?
Saint Germain is the chohan of the 7th ray and a master alchemist of the sacred fire brings the gift of the violet flame of freedom for world transmutation.
Saint Germain is the chohan of the 7th ray and a master alchemist of the sacred fire brings the gift of the violet flame of freedom for world transmutation.
Eckhart Tolle’s logic is so fractured and he is by no mean a good philosopher imo or many other’s ! Christ means King ! Christos means Saviour . Jesus did not believe himself to be a God Saviour ! He saw himself as a King who is God as we all are God !
Your call of theories being unbiblical is no different than refuting the existence of Gandalf , and me calling it UN-Lord of the Ringical ! Sounds insane right ?
Your evidence is self supporting! No one here is asking for your dead mothers pension money ! We just want a dialectic other than a faith required book for it to be evidence! Is that over the line to ask of you ?
No, the thing is these Christians claim that their beliefs are based upon the Bible and this instance is a glaring example of them putting their fingers in their ears and screaming "ladedeladododod"
Their concept of lucifer is not supported by the Bible. This is the main point, that the text of Isaiah 14 says something entirely different from their fantasy ideas or theories about the 12th verse in isolation.
The assumption is that if they claim the Bible is the sole source of authority but believe such things that are literally nowhere to be found in the text, what does that show about their reading comprehension and where do such beliefs sit with the rest of Christianity?
I actually grew up believing that Satan used to be an angel called lucifer who was kicked out of heaven and fell to earth, only later in my adult years did I discover that it wasn't even a mainstream belief in Christianity and from just reading the chapter one can see with your own eyes the unadulterated truth that it's speaking about the king that it polemicizes against.
