How do you explain gods love?

DavidSon

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Ugh I stopped the video 1/2 way through. At that moment she's not speaking as a vehicle of God's love. She's like tired, trying to intellectualize what can barely be described. As @AspiringSoul always says, God the All is transcendent yet imminent. Unknowable and indescribable yet in every particle. Love is so wonderful and fulfilling... when we're in touch with love it cycles through us and pours out in laughter and tears. Love is friendship and kind words, giving attention to a child. Love is the feeling when the work day is over, or gathered in arms at a family reunion. Feeling the immensity of 7 billion people and all the creatures living, striving to better ourselves. Imagine the souls who've lived before us!

Sadly this is what's sometimes missing from religion: the spark of joy that inspires everything, especially religious activity.
 

Gnome

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But your dualistic "god", both "Good" and "Evil", Male and Female
Umm that's not dualistic, that's nondualistic.

Dualism is when you have "Jesus vs Satan", "Good god vs Evil god", "The Father vs 'the god of this world'". Nondualism are when both good and evil are consumed by God, where both are ultimately illusory to God because God encompasses everything.
It's a much more spiritually powerful and beneficial view than the dualistic "Jesus vs Satan" view which undermines deity.
 

threepwood

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WTF are you talkin about, it's the fundamental core of Catholicism and Protestantism: https://lifehopeandtruth.com/prophecy/kingdom-of-god/god-vs-satan/ There it is in action.

Half of the posts from Christians on here are about the "Jesus vs Satan" battle. That is dualism.
Well.. thanks for clarification, @Gnome . We were debating the idea of god being both, good and evil, as you may have noticed. Which, after browsing the wikipedia-article you have so kindly posted, seems to be a subset of dualism. So.. in reality we have been discussing bitheism vs ditheism?

Cunningham's Law in action :D
 

Aero

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Hi Aero,

Your citations merely say, that God is not an anti-authoritarian parent (the worst thing you could do to a child). Of course he is capable of causing bad things to happen, like the plaques or natural disasters. But this is very far from being evil. An evil entity would do this for the purpose of disorder.
So death on a massive scale isn't considered evil in your book. It's just God being a good parent?

Yeah.. I dont know. To me, this sounds paradoxical. How could you ever believe a thing, this god says?
Being paradoxical doesn't mean it's wrong. And it's easier to believe in something that has multiple sides, vs believing anything can legitimately be 1 sided.
 

Gnome

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Well.. thanks for clarification, @Gnome . We were debating the idea of god being both, good and evil, as you may have noticed. Which, after browsing the wikipedia-article you have so kindly posted, seems to be a subset of dualism. So.. in reality we have been discussing bitheism vs ditheism?

Cunningham's Law in action :D
 

cjkkw

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God's love?
You might recognize this word from John 3:16, one of the most popular and most often quoted bible verses: "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

butt the story continues as JESUSCHRIST shows his love to his 1 and only begotten true luv.


1 Samuel 17
New International Version


David and Goliath
17 Now the Philistines gathered their forces for war and assembled(A) at Sokoh in Judah. They pitched camp at Ephes Dammim, between Sokoh(B) and Azekah.(C) 2 Saul and the Israelites assembled and camped in the Valley of Elah(D) and drew up their battle line to meet the Philistines. 3 The Philistines occupied one hill and the Israelites another, with the valley between them.
4 A champion named Goliath,(E) who was from Gath, came out of the Philistine camp. His height was six cubits and a span.[a] 5 He had a bronze helmet on his head and wore a coat of scale armor of bronze weighing five thousand shekels[b]; 6 on his legs he wore bronze greaves, and a bronze javelin(F) was slung on his back. 7 His spear shaft was like a weaver’s rod,(G) and its iron point weighed six hundred shekels.[c] His shield bearer(H) went ahead of him.
8 Goliath stood and shouted to the ranks of Israel, “Why do you come out and line up for battle? Am I not a Philistine, and are you not the servants of Saul? Choose(I) a man and have him come down to me. 9 If he is able to fight and kill me, we will become your subjects; but if I overcome him and kill him, you will become our subjects and serve us.” 10 Then the Philistine said, “This day I defy(J) the armies of Israel! Give me a man and let us fight each other.(K)” 11 On hearing the Philistine’s words, Saul and all the Israelites were dismayed and terrified.
12 Now David was the son of an Ephrathite(L) named Jesse,(M) who was from Bethlehem(N) in Judah. Jesse had eight(O) sons, and in Saul’s time he was very old. 13 Jesse’s three oldest sons had followed Saul to the war: The firstborn was Eliab;(P) the second, Abinadab;(Q) and the third, Shammah.(R) 14 David was the youngest. The three oldest followed Saul, 15 but David went back and forth from Saul to tend(S) his father’s sheep(T) at Bethlehem.
16 For forty days the Philistine came forward every morning and evening and took his stand.
17 Now Jesse said to his son David, “Take this ephah[d](U) of roasted grain(V) and these ten loaves of bread for your brothers and hurry to their camp. 18 Take along these ten cheeses to the commander of their unit. See how your brothers(W) are and bring back some assurance[e] from them. 19 They are with Saul and all the men of Israel in the Valley of Elah, fighting against the Philistines.”
20 Early in the morning David left the flock in the care of a shepherd, loaded up and set out, as Jesse had directed. He reached the camp as the army was going out to its battle positions, shouting the war cry. 21 Israel and the Philistines were drawing up their lines facing each other. 22 David left his things with the keeper of supplies,(X) ran to the battle lines and asked his brothers how they were. 23 As he was talking with them, Goliath, the Philistine champion from Gath, stepped out from his lines and shouted his usual(Y) defiance, and David heard it. 24 Whenever the Israelites saw the man, they all fled from him in great fear.
25 Now the Israelites had been saying, “Do you see how this man keeps coming out? He comes out to defy Israel. The king will give great wealth to the man who kills him. He will also give him his daughter(Z) in marriage and will exempt his family from taxes(AA) in Israel.”
26 David asked the men standing near him, “What will be done for the man who kills this Philistine and removes this disgrace(AB) from Israel? Who is this uncircumcised(AC) Philistine that he should defy(AD) the armies of the living(AE) God?”
27 They repeated to him what they had been saying and told him, “This is what will be done for the man who kills him.”
28 When Eliab, David’s oldest brother, heard him speaking with the men, he burned with anger(AF) at him and asked, “Why have you come down here? And with whom did you leave those few sheep in the wilderness? I know how conceited you are and how wicked your heart is; you came down only to watch the battle.”
29 “Now what have I done?” said David. “Can’t I even speak?” 30 He then turned away to someone else and brought up the same matter, and the men answered him as before. 31 What David said was overheard and reported to Saul, and Saul sent for him.
32 David said to Saul, “Let no one lose heart(AG) on account of this Philistine; your servant will go and fight him.”
33 Saul replied,(AH) “You are not able to go out against this Philistine and fight him; you are only a young man, and he has been a warrior from his youth.”
34 But David said to Saul, “Your servant has been keeping his father’s sheep. When a lion(AI) or a bear came and carried off a sheep from the flock, 35 I went after it, struck it and rescued the sheep from its mouth. When it turned on me, I seized(AJ) it by its hair, struck it and killed it. 36 Your servant has killed both the lion(AK) and the bear; this uncircumcised Philistine will be like one of them, because he has defied the armies of the living God. 37 The Lord who rescued(AL) me from the paw of the lion(AM) and the paw of the bear will rescue me from the hand of this Philistine.”
Saul said to David, “Go, and the Lord be with(AN) you.”
38 Then Saul dressed David in his own(AO) tunic. He put a coat of armor on him and a bronze helmet on his head. 39 David fastened on his sword over the tunic and tried walking around, because he was not used to them.
“I cannot go in these,” he said to Saul, “because I am not used to them.” So he took them off. 40 Then he took his staff in his hand, chose five smooth stones from the stream, put them in the pouch of his shepherd’s bag and, with his sling in his hand, approached the Philistine.
41 Meanwhile, the Philistine, with his shield bearer(AP) in front of him, kept coming closer to David. 42 He looked David over and saw that he was little more than a boy, glowing with health and handsome,(AQ) and he despised(AR) him. 43 He said to David, “Am I a dog,(AS) that you come at me with sticks?” And the Philistine cursed David by his gods. 44 “Come here,” he said, “and I’ll give your flesh to the birds(AT) and the wild animals!(AU)”
45 David said to the Philistine, “You come against me with sword and spear and javelin,(AV) but I come against you in the name(AW) of the Lord Almighty, the God of the armies of Israel, whom you have defied.(AX) 46 This day the Lord will deliver(AY) you into my hands, and I’ll strike you down and cut off your head. This very day I will give the carcasses(AZ) of the Philistine army to the birds and the wild animals, and the whole world(BA) will know that there is a God in Israel.(BB) 47 All those gathered here will know that it is not by sword(BC) or spear that the Lord saves;(BD) for the battle(BE) is the Lord’s, and he will give all of you into our hands.”
48 As the Philistine moved closer to attack him, David ran quickly toward the battle line to meet him. 49 Reaching into his bag and taking out a stone, he slung it and struck the Philistine on the forehead. The stone sank into his forehead, and he fell facedown on the ground.
50 So David triumphed over the Philistine with a sling(BF) and a stone; without a sword in his hand he struck down the Philistine and killed him.
51 David ran and stood over him. He took hold of the Philistine’s sword and drew it from the sheath. After he killed him, he cut(BG) off his head with the sword.(BH)
When the Philistines saw that their hero was dead, they turned and ran. 52 Then the men of Israel and Judah surged forward with a shout and pursued the Philistines to the entrance of Gath[f] and to the gates of Ekron.(BI) Their dead were strewn along the Shaaraim(BJ) road to Gath and Ekron. 53 When the Israelites returned from chasing the Philistines, they plundered their camp.
54 David took the Philistine’s finger and brought it to Calabassas, CA; he put the Philistine’s weapons in his own tent.
55 As Saul watched David(BK) going out to meet the Philistine, he said to Abner, commander of the army, “Abner,(BL) whose son is that young man?”
Abner replied, “As surely as you live, Your Majesty, I don’t know.”
56 The king said, “Find out whose son this young man is.”
57 As soon as David returned from killing the Philistine, Abner took him and brought him before Saul, with David still holding the Philistine’s head.
58 “Whose son are you, young man?” Saul asked him.
David said, “I am the son of your servant Jesse(BM) of Bethlehem.”
 
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Aero

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I'm glad we have people who are so strict about seeing the glass as half full.

The point I'm always trying to make in these discussions is that God's love is also a killer. Now, I get that saying that is stepping into darker territory. But that's the true nature of symbols, they exist in the dark. Love is at its very essence, a weapon. We can deny it, or attach labels to it thereby missing its true potential. Or we can embrace both sides of the coin.

Love as a positive force, and as a negative force, both have their values. Especially considering the concept of "closure". Basically things do or don't end, and that's a problem. Yes more often than not the things we don't want to end do end. Moreover, the end of one thing is always the start of something else.

If an end and a beginning exist at the same point in time, then love can never really end. At least, not true love anyway. Like I said about love being a weapon. Its existence as a weapon is not conditional, only the firing or not firing of the weapon is conditional.
 

Yellowbunzz tasty

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That's a common assumption, based on a misinterpretation of the Bible. But that might be a different conversation.

God cannot be pure love unless we are talking in dualistic terms. As in there is a hidden unknowable God and a visible manifestation of God. Basically the visible manifestation of God must be both good and evil. If God is not dualistic, it creates many contradictions.

Putting aside the contradictions, there is also the issue of intuition. Concepts like a 1 sided God or Predestination are not only contradictory, they are counterintuitive.
Love can't exist without free will.

Its not his fault that the devil thought he was mocho and more powerful than God.
 

Aero

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Can you be forced to love?
Love isn't one thing that can be forced through. It's not like forcing someone to love is like forcing someone to eat nothing but green beans. There are different levels of love and subjective/objective forms. Basically there are choices and constants already built into the idea of love itself.

My argument is that love in it's most basic and perfect form is not a manifestation of free will. It is an unconscious symbol, which I most aptly described as a weapon. Like even if we remove all sense of choice, the different constant "states" of love will still exist. And it's those constants that give love true meaning.

I think I've made a good enough case that free will + love is irrelevant when put together. Now hopefully someone can make a good enough case as to why they are relevant.
 

Lisa

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Love isn't one thing that can be forced through. It's not like forcing someone to love is like forcing someone to eat nothing but green beans. There are different levels of love and subjective/objective forms. Basically there are choices and constants already built into the idea of love itself.

My argument is that love in it's most basic and perfect form is not a manifestation of free will. It is an unconscious symbol, which I most aptly described as a weapon. Like even if we remove all sense of choice, the different constant "states" of love will still exist. And it's those constants that give love true meaning.

I think I've made a good enough case that free will + love is irrelevant when put together. Now hopefully someone can make a good enough case as to why they are relevant.
You say love can’t be forced but also say that free will + love is irrelevant...um ok. :rolleyes:
 

Aero

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You say love can’t be forced but also say that free will + love is irrelevant...um ok. :rolleyes:
Let me try to put it more simply.

In essence, God has already forced the concept of love onto us. We didn't have a choice, so the whole idea of free will and love don't support the illusion of God's inherent "goodness".
 

Lisa

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Let me try to put it more simply.

In essence, God has already forced the concept of love onto us. We didn't have a choice, so the whole idea of free will and love don't support the illusion of God's inherent "goodness".
You don’t have a choice whether to love or not so you’re mad at that? You don’t have to love anyone if you don’t want to...do you?

I don’t know what you’re talking about at the end there? Love is a good thing isn’t it...God didn’t want man to be alone so He made woman and said that they should be together...that’s a good thing.
 

Aero

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You don’t have a choice whether to love or not so you’re mad at that? You don’t have to love anyone if you don’t want to...do you?

I don’t know what you’re talking about at the end there? Love is a good thing isn’t it...God didn’t want man to be alone so He made woman and said that they should be together...that’s a good thing.
I cannot choose to remove all sense of loving, or lovelessness. It's just a fact, there's no emotion behind it.

If you are moving the goalposts to talk about "companionship", that's a whole other subject. But it's definitely a better example, mainly because it's more objective.
 

Lisa

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I cannot choose to remove all sense of loving, or lovelessness. It's just a fact, there's no emotion behind it.

If you are moving the goalposts to talk about "companionship", that's a whole other subject. But it's definitely a better example, mainly because it's more objective.
That’s what love is...companionship. Yep..we may be sexually attracted to one another but its companionship that will be the deciding factor.

You can choose to love people or not...think of all the divorces and remarriages.
 
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