How do you explain gods love?

[Aero]

Father (God) offered all of us, including Lucifer/Satan/Iblis, the opportunity to be rehabilitated inside human-animal bodies, rather than face immediate execution for treason. Is that not what one would expect from such a merciful and loving Father?

That argument might be well used on someone with strong beliefs on capital punishment. I could go either way and can often argue that immediate execution is the more merciful decision.

Oh really? Do you know of any Earthly kings that would not immediately carry out the death penalty for treason? Even on human naval ships mutiny is a capital offense.

Which is why you compared Him to a human, so you could then beat down that (strawman) argument as alleged evidence we don't know, even though we've been given all of this information in minute detail?

Naval mutiny? Nah man. I don't think that is a good comparison. Basically you can't even properly contextualize the angel mutiny, because the Bible literally has like 1 line about it.

Nobody is straw-manning you. The book of Genesis explicitly compared God to humans. Moreover, my criticism of the man-god wasn't supporting an unknowability argument. I'm not prepared to make a whole unknowability argument, at least until I fully understand Fitch’s paradox of knowability.

If you would have taken the time to read the linked article in its entirety, you would have seen that question was answered. :Lucifer/Satan refused to be subjected to human limitations, so Father decided to use him to test the rest of us, to see if we're sincere about changing sides. And, by the way, all of us, including Satan, are being held here on this planet.

We all failed the same test that Adam failed. Most are still placing their Eve above God, having never learned the lesson from the Garden of Eden. No wonder there is so much confusion in this world.

Except I did read it, and nowhere did it answer my actual question of necessity. Either way, let's not get off track here. Blaming the world for not understanding something obviously unclear isn't good philosophy.

Why is there a hidden test at all? More importantly, why isn't there a universal doctrine that fleshes it all out without assumptions. If it's all meant to be excruciatingly difficult then blaming people for failing seems cruel and unjust.

 

[Lisa]

God cannot be all love if he gave people free will to commit evil. Don't you see the contradiction you made? An ever-loving God would simply not sacrifice love for free will.

I think you really should investigate other points of view. A good start for you would be studying Kaballah or some other mystic tradition with connections to astrology.

God allows people to choose evil and good. Doesn’t mean he condones the evil.
You can’t have real love without free will. People have to be able to choose love.

Lol, thanks for the offer to fall away from my faith, but I’ll pass.

 

[Lisa]

No Need For Apologetics? Postmodernism’s Effect on Christian Apologetics | Dwell Community Church

www.xenos.org

Why did you post this?

 

[studytruth]

If you take away the concepts of love, good, bad, happy, sad and draw it down to 2 words...true and false. What might be called the god of good is Truth, and what might be called the god of evil is false. Since the entire world of the material is error or a dream or hologram, thus false- the love of god would in fact be more the spark of Truth or the Light of the Soul. Something like that. It is hard to put it into words.

 

[Aero]

God allows people to choose evil and good. Doesn’t mean he condones the evil.
You can’t have real love without free will. People have to be able to choose love.

Lol, thanks for the offer to fall away from my faith, but I’ll pass.

If God allows people to choose good or evil than God isn't all good. Take my comments on the book of Genesis for example. It is said, God made man in his image. Well, humans can be pretty damn evil, so I just don't know wtf kind of wishful thinking some of you are even on.

Exploring other points of view shouldn't make you fall away from your faith. If it did, your faith must not have been that strong, to begin with.

 

[Lisa]

If God allows people to choose good or evil than God isn't all good. Take my comments on the book of Genesis for example. It is said, God made man in his image. Well, humans can be pretty damn evil, so I just don't know wtf kind of wishful thinking some of you are even on.

Exploring other points of view shouldn't make you fall away from your faith. If it did, your faith must not have been that strong, to begin with.

Humans sin because of Adam and Eve sinned by eating the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. God told them not to do it and satan manipulated them to do it. By that we know good and evil and because of the sin nature passed down to us from Adam and Eve we are drawn to evil and have a hard time doing the good we know we should do. Doesn’t mean that God was happy about it..but He also gave us free will. God is still and always has been good..and you can be thankful for that! If he were satan and evil.. life would be beyond terrible.

Lol! Since I have found the truth..reading other things is superfluous anyhow...and anyone can fall away from the faith..why push it?

 

[Aero]

Humans sin because of Adam and Eve sinned by eating the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. God told them not to do it and satan manipulated them to do it. By that we know good and evil and because of the sin nature passed down to us from Adam and Eve we are drawn to evil and have a hard time doing the good we know we should do. Doesn’t mean that God was happy about it..but He also gave us free will. God is still and always has been good..and you can be thankful for that! If he were satan and evil.. life would be beyond terrible.

Lol! Since I have found the truth..reading other things is superfluous anyhow...and anyone can fall away from the faith..why push it?

I'm aware of the Christian origin story.

What you are doing is called a fallacy of argument by repetition. It's like I pinned you into a corner without even trying. That's just how thin your God's love argument actually is. Nobody said God was happy about creating evil, just that he did in fact create evil.

Moreover, life is beyond terrible for a lot of people. In fact, 815 million people are literally starving in the world. Do you know what it's like to starve to death? Have you seen the pictures of skin and bones children literally on deaths doorstep? Let's go see if your bullshit argument about God's love puts food in their stomachs.

 

[Aero]

Why did you post this?

Considering I knew nobody would read it. I posted it to be a dick.

 

[Lisa]

I'm aware of the Christian origin story.

What you are doing is called a fallacy of argument by repetition. It's like I pinned you into a corner without even trying. That's just how thin your God's love argument actually is. Nobody said God was happy about creating evil, just that he did in fact create evil.

Moreover, life is beyond terrible for a lot of people. In fact, 815 million people are literally starving in the world. Do you know what it's like to starve to death? Have you seen the pictures of skin and bones children literally on deaths doorstep? Let's go see if your bullshit argument about God's love puts food in their stomachs.

No..that is the other side of the argument..it doesn’t change because you want it to.

I haven’t starved to death so far..so no, I don’t know what it’s like to starve to death. However I’ve fasted all day before and know what that feels like.

I would say that people in those countries could use better governments that don’t steal everything for themselves and leave kids to starve and die..seems like a human sin problem to me and not a God problem. People could pray to God to help them ass well.

 

[Lisa]

I posted it to be a dick.

I agree with you there

 

[Aero]

No..that is the other side of the argument..it doesn’t change because you want it to.

I haven’t starved to death so far..so no, I don’t know what it’s like to starve to death. However I’ve fasted all day before and know what that feels like.

I would say that people in those countries could use better governments that don’t steal everything for themselves and leave kids to starve and die..seems like a human sin problem to me and not a God problem. People could pray to God to help them ass well.

Congratulations. You fasted for a day from your comfortable couch, with the energy from yesterday's meal still in your system. Too bad, that's a far cry from living off scraps for months-years.

It's been established a human problem is also a God problem. Basically, you cannot have an all-powerful God, and then completely remove responsibility from it. Logic doesn't work that way.

 

[Kiwipastels]

This thread should be in the religion section @Kiwipastels

sorry a bit new, i will be better in the future at utilizing the variety of forums

 

[Kiwipastels]

Why didn't God just eliminate Satan?

I read the link and how it talks about God creating a prison reform program for the angel upstarts. Basically it all sounds like an incredibly human thing to do. Obviously, I get that we can only describe God in human terms, but that fact also lends weight to the idea that we don't really know.

God is great and all-powerful, but at the same time, we keep attaching human cognitive functioning to it. Sometimes we even attach less than human cognitive functioning to God. Basically I'm with the argument that God created a "test", I just don't see how an oppressor is necessary. God could have removed Satan entirely, and tested us in a million different ways.

I feel like I got shortchanged. Why couldn't I just get the test from the garden of Eden? Instead, I have to bang my head against a wall trying to figure out which "light" is the proper source of goodness.

because we are gifted freewill

 

[Aero]

because we are gifted freewill

Yeah, I got that.

My thoughts are that you are seeing the world you know, and not the world as it would be if God made it different. An existence comprised in absolute love still allows free will.

 

[threepwood]

That's a common assumption, based on a misinterpretation of the Bible. But that might be a different conversation.

God cannot be pure love unless we are talking in dualistic terms. As in there is a hidden unknowable God and a visible manifestation of God. Basically the visible manifestation of God must be both good and evil. If God is not dualistic, it creates many contradictions.

Putting aside the contradictions, there is also the issue of intuition. Concepts like a 1 sided God or Predestination are not only contradictory, they are counterintuitive.

Hi Aero,

I am totally aware of the fact, that the interpretation of the bible by one group, is a misinterpretation for any other group.

But your dualistic "god", both "Good" and "Evil", Male and Female, clearly is the adversary of Christianity. Its just contradictory, if you hold onto the believe, that the Bible tells the story of your "god".

God cannot be all love if he gave people free will to commit evil. Don't you see the contradiction you made? An ever-loving God would simply not sacrifice love for free will.

I think you really should investigate other points of view. A good start for you would be studying Kaballah or some other mystic tradition with connections to astrology.

I would argue, that you cannot love without a free will. And a free will is impossible without choices.

But I'm curious.. how could a loving god hide its true love and will behind some sinister mystical traditions? Why do you claim the bible has been misinterpreted, when its obvious, that your image of god, has nothing to do with it? The Bible tells the everlasting story of his people, being confronted by false goddesses. How could anybody argue, these goddesses and false religions have been the origin of the bible all along?
If I remember correctly, you somewhere stated you wouldn't believe in the gnostic demiurge. That may explain this contradiction, dont you think?

Kind regards,
threepwood

 

[Aero]

Hi Aero,

I am totally aware of the fact, that the interpretation of the bible by one group, is a misinterpretation for any other group.

But your dualistic "god", both "Good" and "Evil", Male and Female, clearly is the adversary of Christianity. Its just contradictory, if you hold onto the believe, that the Bible tells the story of your "god".

Where does the Bible say that a dualistic approach is the adversary of Christianity? Pretty sure it says to only worship 1 God, and that's what I do.

I would argue, that you cannot love without a free will. And a free will is impossible without choices.

But I'm curious.. how could a loving god hide its true love and will behind some sinister mystical traditions? Why do you claim the bible has been misinterpreted, when its obvious, that your image of god, has nothing to do with it? The Bible tells the everlasting story of his people, being confronted by false goddesses. How could anybody argue, these goddesses and false religions have been the origin of the bible all along?
If I remember correctly, you somewhere stated you wouldn't believe in the gnostic demiurge. That may explain this contradiction, dont you think?

Kind regards,
threepwood

You completely misinterpreted what I wrote. Let me clarify.

You can love without free will. It's just a question of if the concept retains its power. Basically you are saying one cannot exist without the other, and that's the same argument I'm making for good vs evil. So I'm just wondering if you are trying to create a double standard here. Why are you allowed to say love can't exist without free will, but I'm not allowed to say good cannot exist without evil?

 

[threepwood]

Where does the Bible say that a dualistic approach is the adversary of Christianity? Pretty sure it says to only worship 1 God, and that's what I do.

The concept of dualism doesn't originate from the bible, how can there be any doubt about this?

You may read it into it, as you seem fond of the idea, mixing religious ideas from different sources. But the bible clearly states, that God is without evil.

You completely misinterpreted what I wrote. Let me clarify.

Hmm.. there wasnt really much information to misinterpret. But, I would say, i haven't gotten the full picture (of your system of thought), yet. So.. thanks for your patience.

You can love without free will. It's just a question of if the concept retains its power. Basically you are saying one cannot exist without the other, and that's the same argument I'm making for good vs evil. So I'm just wondering if you are trying to create a double standard here. Why are you allowed to say love can't exist without free will, but I'm not allowed to say good cannot exist without evil?

Hmm.. we might not be able to settle the question, if love without free will is possible or not. And I understand, why you would shift to the question about its concept still being in place, instead.
But similarly, if God would be good and evil.. would the concept of it still retain its power? Its like the Ying-Yang thing.. There would be no ultimate justification of whats the right way. Or the Kabbalah.. you may choose the left-hand-path or the right-hand-path. Despite their names, there would be no fundamental difference, at least, since god would be both, there couldn't possibly be a jugdment about the right (or good) path.

And, by the way... I didn't forbid you to say anything. I just said that its a contradiction, to impose mystical concepts on the bible, which condemns pagan beliefs pretty vehemently.

Kind regards,
threepwood

 

[A.J.]

Romans 5

BibleGateway.com: A searchable online Bible in over 150 versions and 50 languages.: Audio

www.biblegateway.com

 

[Aero]

The concept of dualism doesn't originate from the bible, how can there be any doubt about this?

You may read it into it, as you seem fond of the idea, mixing religious ideas from different sources. But the bible clearly states, that God is without evil.

I didn't say the concept of dualism originated in the Bible. I said the Bible makes no mention of it. And your flat out wrong about what the Bible says about God and Evil.

Isaiah 45:7
I form light and create darkness; I make well-being and create calamity; I am the Lord, who does all these things.

Proverbs 16:4
The Lord has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble.

Hmm.. we might not be able to settle the question, if love without free will is possible or not. And I understand, why you would shift to the question about its concept still being in place, instead.
But similarly, if God would be good and evil.. would the concept of it still retain its power? Its like the Ying-Yang thing.. There would be no ultimate justification of whats the right way. Or the Kabbalah.. you may choose the left-hand-path or the right-hand-path. Despite their names, there would be no fundamental difference, at least, since god would be both, there couldn't possibly be a jugdment about the right (or good) path.

God can be both good and evil and still emphasize the good, or loving path.

 

[threepwood]

Hi Aero,

Your citations merely say, that God is not an anti-authoritarian parent (the worst thing you could do to a child). Of course he is capable of causing bad things to happen, like the plaques or natural disasters. But this is very far from being evil. An evil entity would do this for the purpose of disorder.

God can be both good and evil and still emphasize the good, or loving path.

Yeah.. I dont know. To me, this sounds paradoxical. How could you ever believe a thing, this god says?

Kind regards,
threepwood