Hell, eternal or not?

What do you believe about punishment in hell?

  • Eternal Punishment

  • Not Eternal Punishment


Results are only viewable after voting.

Illuminized

Established
Joined
Apr 29, 2017
Messages
206
you don't have to believe what the Bible said, but I do. buddha is a deceiver and a false prophet, no way in hell he will be reconciled with God. Only your false stupid UR(purgatory) doctrine allowed buddha, hitler, mao, stalin, castro, muhammad...etc these guys have a chance. Do you find satisfaction of these guys being saved in the end?
What exactly did Buddha even do to deserve a place among those people? I think pretty much every non-Christian who has some thinking capacity would be appalled by that. The punishment does not fit the crime. This is especially true if you're going off of what interpreters say about Buddha centuries after his death.

Hitler and Mohammed can't be called absolutely evil, they did what they did for their people. You'd have to include Moses in that list if that's a bad thing! Recall that Moses and Joshua ordered a brutal conquest of Canaan. I can't really speak on the behalf of Stalin, but he probably had motives beyond the conquest of the European continent.

When Jesus come back, he's not popping back into a woman's womb and do the whole incarnation over again. That's not the same as reincarnation these people believe. He'll come in the clouds and all eyes shall see him in his glory. Insisting this as a reincarnation is a down grade.
Unless the book of Acts is an invention by Eusebius and Constantine. Nowhere else in the NT does it say that he'll come in the clouds iirc.
 
Last edited:

Alanantic

Star
Joined
Oct 2, 2017
Messages
1,384
All that proves is that the devil was hard at work, lying to people back then.

Read the Word of God if you want the truth.
I've read it cover to cover. I was raised a Christian. There is some Truth there, but it's Grade School, and I graduated decades ago.

"You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep seated need to believe." -- Carl Sagan
 
Joined
Jan 9, 2018
Messages
1,367
What exactly did Buddha even do to deserve a place among those people? I think pretty much every non-Christian who has some thinking capacity would be appalled by that. The punishment does not fit the crime. This is especially true if you're going off of what interpreters say about Buddha centuries after his death.

Hitler and Mohammed can't be called absolutely evil, they did what they did for their people. You'd have to include Moses in that list if that's a bad thing! Recall that Moses and Joshua ordered a brutal conquest of Canaan. I can't really speak on the behalf of Stalin, but he probably had motives beyond the conquest of the European continent.

Unless the book of Acts is an invention by Eusebius and Constantine. Nowhere else in the NT does it say that he'll come in the clouds iirc.
Matthew 24:
[30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

1 Thessalonians 4:
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
 

Illuminized

Established
Joined
Apr 29, 2017
Messages
206
Matthew 24:
[30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

1 Thessalonians 4:
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
I don't trust the letters of "Paul". As for Jesus, the context is:

29 “Immediately after the distress of those days

“‘the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’

31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

The former probably refers to a reoccuring cosmic event while the latter is likely distorted from a parable. Neither actually have anything to do with his coming.
 
Joined
Jan 9, 2018
Messages
1,367
I don't trust the letters of "Paul". As for Jesus, the context is:

29 “Immediately after the distress of those days

“‘the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’

31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

The former probably refers to a reoccuring cosmic event while the latter is likely distorted from a parable. Neither actually have anything to do with his coming.

So you don’t believe the whole Bible, like Todd? Why believe any of it then?

You are wrong about Jesus words in Matthew 24.

Here is the whole chapter:

Matthew 24:

1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.

2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.




9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.


24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25 Behold, I have told you before.

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?

46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.

47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.

48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;

49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;

50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,

51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Unless you are unsaved, this chapter is crystal clear. Jesus Himself prophecied the destruction of the temple (fulfilled), and speaks of His 2nd Coming.
 

elsbet

Superstar
Joined
Jun 4, 2017
Messages
5,122
I, personally, am neither for nor against reincarnation, but, in a sense, isn't that what is being suggested, if not directly stated, in this post {click here}?
This is an interesting one. I did a little searching though, and learned something about Judaism.. or at least a tradition within.

Ellicott ♡
This is Elias.--The words of Malachi (Malachi 4:5) had led men to expect the reappearance of the great Tishbite in person as the immediate precursor of the Christ. It was the teaching of the scribes then (Matthew 17:10; John 1:21); it has lingered as a tradition of Judaism down to our own time.

A vacant chair is placed for Elijah at all great solemnities. Even Christian interpreters have cherished the belief that Elijah will appear in person before the second Advent of the Lord. The true meaning of the words of Malachi had, however, been suggested in the words of the angel in Luke 1:17, "He shall go before Him in the spirit and power of Elias," and is here distinctly confirmed.

The words "if ye will (i.e., are willing to) receive it" imply the consciousness that our Lord was setting aside a popular and strongly-fixed belief: "If you are willing and able to receive the truth that John was in very deed doing the work of Elijah, you need look for no other in the future."


Ellicott- Matt. 11:14
 

Daciple

Star
Joined
Apr 25, 2017
Messages
1,157
Is it safe to say that Elijah, in this case, was re-born as John the Baptist?
No lol I see Elsbet already answered it, there wasnt a literal incarnation of Elijah, but John came in the Power and Spirit of Elijah, the Jews were not properly understanding how Scriptures were to be fulfilled, as is the case with pretty much all of Scripture concerning Jesus. He came to usher in the Kingdom of the Son, which can not be seen and is Spiritual, they misunderstood everything wanting the Messiah to literally restore the Physical Kingdom of Israel and make it rule over the Earth. Just like our wonderful Zionists still are thinking Jesus is going to act when He comes back. However that never was the mission of Christ, He already brought the Kingdom and the next phase of the Kingdom according to Scripture is to destroy the World, Judge the Dead and usher in the New Heaven and Earth.

So just as the Jews didnt grasp the coming of the Messiah or the Kingdom He was ushering in, neither did they understand the coming of Elijah...
 

Todd

Star
Joined
Apr 16, 2017
Messages
2,525
No lol I see Elsbet already answered it, there wasnt a literal incarnation of Elijah, but John came in the Power and Spirit of Elijah, the Jews were not properly understanding how Scriptures were to be fulfilled, as is the case with pretty much all of Scripture concerning Jesus. He came to usher in the Kingdom of the Son, which can not be seen and is Spiritual, they misunderstood everything wanting the Messiah to literally restore the Physical Kingdom of Israel and make it rule over the Earth. Just like our wonderful Zionists still are thinking Jesus is going to act when He comes back. However that never was the mission of Christ, He already brought the Kingdom and the next phase of the Kingdom according to Scripture is to destroy the World, Judge the Dead and usher in the New Heaven and Earth.

So just as the Jews didnt grasp the coming of the Messiah or the Kingdom He was ushering in, neither did they understand the coming of Elijah...
So do you believe the 1000 year reign of Christ happens before or after the new heaven and earth is created?
I’ve always took it as before, but am open to the idea it’s after. Curious if you have different perspective?
 

Daciple

Star
Joined
Apr 25, 2017
Messages
1,157
So do you believe the 1000 year reign of Christ happens before or after the new heaven and earth is created?
I’ve always took it as before, but am open to the idea it’s after. Curious if you have different perspective?
I used to hold that the 1000 yr reign happened after Christs 2nd Advent, as the PreMil theology would have it. Now I am being lead to accept that we are actually in the midst of 1000 yr reign, its not a literal 1000 yr reign but a metaphoric term for a long span of time. Jesus is right now reigning on the Throne, there is no need for Him to set up a Carnal Reign on Earth. And when you take all the Prophecies concerning Jesus Return and just accept them all at face value then it says that when He Returns He destroys the Earth:

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up

Pretty much impossible for Jesus to Rule from a Carnal Earth in Carnal Israel if He destroys it, if all the elements melt at His coming.

The Day of the Lord also entails Him judging the Nations, then cast them into the Lake of Fire:

Is 24:20 The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again.
21 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth.

Is 13:6 Howl ye; for the day of the Lord is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.
7 Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt:
8 And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames.
9 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.

Zep 3:8 Therefore wait ye upon me, saith the Lord, until the day that I rise up to the prey: for my determination is to gather the nations, that I may assemble the kingdoms, to pour upon them mine indignation, even all my fierce anger: for all the earth shall be devoured with the fire of my jealousy.

Matt 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

It also is when the Rapture of the Saints takes place:

Matt 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

I believe this is all one event, not like 6-10 like Dispensationalism which has Jesus coming 3-4 times, which throws the Scriptures into wack, instead everything happens all at once like Scriptures state. Jesus comes back, Raptures the Saints, pours out His Wrath on the World which ends in total destruction of the World, then comes the White Throne Judgement and Resurrection, then casting of those who rejected Christ into the Lake of Fire for Eternity, then the New Heavens and New Earth which is the Everlasting and End state of all things, where Christ delivers the Church (aka New Jerusalem Rev 21:2) to God the Father and then God is all and all...

So the 1000 yrs is now, the Kingdom of the Son, then comes the 2nd Advent which is the End of this current Evil Age and then comes the Kingdom of the Father for all Eternity. At least that is my perspective of Eschatology, as it makes infinitely more sense than Dispensationalism ( I believe in 2 "dispensations" of God Old and New Covenant vs 7+) and believe in only ONE Second Coming of Christ vs 3-4 in Pre Trib/Pre Mil. So yeah the 1000 yrs happens before the New Heaven and New Earth...
 

Alanantic

Star
Joined
Oct 2, 2017
Messages
1,384
You’ve read it once? What the NLT , NIV?
No idea what you're referring to.
All religion is Man's attempt at understanding our existence. You've obviously made up your mind about that. Why are you here?

"A fanatic is always concealing a secret doubt." John le Carre
 

Karlysymon

Superstar
Joined
Mar 18, 2017
Messages
6,857
Serveto said:
Is it safe to say that Elijah, in
this case, was re-born as John
the Baptist?
Adding to @elsbet's answer, Elijah never died, he was translated. Even more, he appeared with Moses at Christ's transfiguration on the mount, likely after John the Baptist's death.
 

Karlysymon

Superstar
Joined
Mar 18, 2017
Messages
6,857
In that case, the idea of translation is intriguing: it sounds like a form or variation on the theme of what Christians call the rapture.
That's interesting. Come to think of it...ardent believers of the Rapture never really say anything about the mode of transportation...you know...fiery horses and chariots (2 Kings 2), and to add, he was translated with Elisha and the company of prophets as witnesses. All that the LEFT BEHIND movies depict, is piles of clothes and jewellery 'left behind' after the sudden, secretive disappearance.
 

Red Sky at Morning

Superstar
Joined
Mar 15, 2017
Messages
13,976
That's interesting. Come to think of it...ardent believers of the Rapture never really say anything about the mode of transportation...you know...fiery horses and chariots (2 Kings 2), and to add, he was translated with Elisha and the company of prophets as witnesses. All that the LEFT BEHIND movies depict, is piles of clothes and jewellery 'left behind' after the sudden, secretive disappearance.
As an ardent believer in the Rapture (;-) I have not given such issues any thought at all!

Perhaps all I could say on it is that I believe angels are extra dimensional beings. Comparing us to them is like contrasting black and white TV to colour. If I have any imagination at all of the Rapture, it is of the believers joining the resurrected saints in new spiritual bodies that are as above our own as butterflies are to caterpillars!
 

Karlysymon

Superstar
Joined
Mar 18, 2017
Messages
6,857
As an ardent believer in the Rapture (;-) I have not given such issues any thought at all!

Perhaps all I could say on it is that I believe angels are extra dimensional beings. Comparing us to them is like contrasting black and white TV to colour. If I have any imagination at all of the Rapture, it is of the believers joining the resurrected saints in new spiritual bodies that are as above our own as butterflies are to caterpillars!
This is an age with deceptions at every turn, in this case, i'll take his translation as a precedent for future translations.
 

cfowen

Established
Joined
Feb 21, 2018
Messages
311
As an ardent believer in the Rapture (;-) I have not given such issues any thought at all!

Perhaps all I could say on it is that I believe angels are extra dimensional beings. Comparing us to them is like contrasting black and white TV to colour. If I have any imagination at all of the Rapture, it is of the believers joining the resurrected saints in new spiritual bodies that are as above our own as butterflies are to caterpillars!
If you were a Jew or a Gentile grafted into Israel, that believed in Jesus Christ during the time of the Jewish Church in Acts, you could be raptured. As a Gentile today, if you're still not overly brainwashed, and you still have the eyes to see the new church and The Mystery in Paul's post-Acts books, your hope would be the "appearing.". and your calling would be Heaven, unlike any other group in the Bible, including the church in Acts. Those that had a hope of the rapture had no hope of heaven. At best, they would be in the New Jerusalem, the city that comes down to the New Earth from Heaven. If you can't see these things in Paul's last 7 Books, it is likely you'll be in the White Throne Judgment where, if you pass, you'll be on earth.

THE APPEARING:
Col 3:1-4

1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

1Tim 6:14
That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:

2Tim 4:1
I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

2Tim4:8
Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

IN HEAVEN
Eph 2:6-7
Note:The Greek phrase "heavenly places" occurs only in Ephesians. It means the supra-heavens
.
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

Eph 1:3
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

WHEN DID GOD CHOOSE THE CHURCH AFTER ACTS? - BEFORE the foundation of the world
Eph 1:4
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

WHEN DID GOD CHOOSE THE CHURCH DURING ACTS? - SINCE the foundation of the world.
2Th 2:13
But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from (or, since) the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

THE ONLY WAY TO SEE THIS GLORIOUS CALLING As a bonus, if you rightly divide, you'll be approved unto God.
2Tim 2:15
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
 
Last edited:
Top