"Hebrew Israelite" theology discussed...

[Claire Rousseau]

Is it any less of a cult than Jewish people believing they are God's chosen people?

Is it cultish because of the "chosen" aspect?

Is it cultish because these are black people who believe they are chosen? (although many many Hispanics, natives, Asians, believe the same?)

Or is it cultish because of the outlandish doctrines not found in scripture? (Although I don't believe them myself, we need to be honest with ourselves and include Christianity, JW, Mormons, etc in this group as well)

Who can answer me?

It's cultish because of the outlandish doctrines that are either not according to Scripture, or is added to it.

The Bible does NOT promote racism of any kind. According to the Bible, we are all of one race: the human race.
We all come from the same 2 parents, Adam & Eve, if you go back far enough.

Racism is a completely man-made construct, and God certainly does NOT favor people based on their skin color; He looks at the heart.

And really, WHO CARES what color Jesus was??
Based on where He lived He was probably not black, or white, or Asian or Latino. He probably resembled the Middle Eastern or Arabic people we see today.

Nobody knows for sure.

I am pretty sure the last thing He wanted us to worry about is what color His skin was.

Think about it...why do you think there are no portraits of Jesus? (And I don't believe for a second that the "Jesus" portrayed by the Roman Catholic Cult of a long-haired, hippie looking white dude in a dress was what Jesus really looked like AT ALL). Given His widespread acclaim, you'd think SOMEONE would have painted a picture of Him. They don't exist, and I truly believe He supernaturally ensured there was no pictures of Himself specifically BECAUSE He did not want us to make a big deal about it.

The Bible says nothing about His skin color, so God obviously did not think that was important.

It says He was not a particularly handsome guy, that He was plain & ordinary looking, which tells me He didn't place importance on the superficial things of the flesh, like looks, skin color, etc.

I honestly don't care WHAT color He is....be it black, Arabic, white, yellow or glow-in-the-dark.

He GAVE HIS SINLESS LIFE TO SAVE US from the Hell we deserve.

I will fall on my face and thank Him for giving me LIFE EVERLASTING, whatever color He is.

 

[pumkinspice]

I think this forum is a great place to find an answer: https://truenation.websitetoolbox.com/post/why-was-david-called-red-or-ruddy-4882959

As for the European blood found in Egyptians, I am not surprised as Egypt was at one point ruled by Ptolemy and Alexander the Great. Even before, Edom is no stranger to Egypt. Mixture is the reason some are so light today, like with the natives and Arabians.

I found an article by mistake long ago about Europeans that settled in West China, took on the names of the Chinese and married their women, and was buried like any other Chinese person. If you weren't careful, you'd think they were in fact Chinese, but looking at history and testing some of their remains proved otherwise...and this was a legit article. If I can find it I will post it here. Europeans have always went into other countries and disguised themselves within the people..either that, or shed the name of Edom and called themselves the name of the land. (I mean no hate as I'm typing this) This is touched on in the book of Josephus

 

[pumkinspice]

It's cultish because of the outlandish doctrines that are either not according to Scripture, or is added to it.

The Bible does NOT promote racism of any kind. According to the Bible, we are all of one race: the human race.
We all come from the same 2 parents, Adam & Eve, if you go back far enough.

Racism is a completely man-made construct, and God certainly does NOT favor people based on their skin color; He looks at the heart.

And really, WHO CARES what color Jesus was??
Based on where He lived He was probably not black, or white, or Asian or Latino. He probably resembled the Middle Eastern or Arabic people we see today.

Nobody knows for sure.

I am pretty sure the last thing He wanted us to worry about is what color His skin was.

Think about it...why do you think there are no portraits of Jesus? (And I don't believe for a second that the "Jesus" portrayed by the Roman Catholic Cult of a long-haired, hippie looking white dude in a dress was what Jesus really looked like AT ALL). Given His widespread acclaim, you'd think SOMEONE would have painted a picture of Him. They don't exist, and I truly believe He supernaturally ensured there was no pictures of Himself specifically BECAUSE He did not want us to make a big deal about it.

The Bible says nothing about His skin color, so God obviously did not think that was important.

It says He was not a particularly handsome guy, that He was plain & ordinary looking, which tells me He didn't place importance on the superficial things of the flesh, like looks, skin color, etc.

I honestly don't care WHAT color He is....be it black, Arabic, white, yellow or glow-in-the-dark.

He GAVE HIS SINLESS LIFE TO SAVE US from the Hell we deserve.

I will fall on my face and thank Him for giving me LIFE EVERLASTING, whatever color He is.

Well....if it didn't matter so much, why did they paint him the way they did? Then go on to conquer and taint the real gospel with heresies and lies?

HI's focus so much on it because for them, it's a big deal. You mean all this time, we're related to Christ? This is why we were enslaved? The history goes so much deeper than I can go into right now.

You've never been in the place of such a downtrodded people, and made to forget who you were. Stripped of your very essence...so I understand why you wouldn't care. Forget about all historical context, if that's all you feel you must do at this point in your life. Maybe it's not meant for you to understand or ever believe.

And you're right, the bible doesn't promote racism. Even the bible tells the Israelite "thou shalt not abhor an Edomite", just like it tells everyone else "thou shalt not commit adultery", yet, some people fall to that sin.

Do you condemn ALL believing HI's for the sin of some? Do you condemn ALL pastors for the sin that some fall to?

Pray that they come to the knowledge of the truth. Some people are really out there trying.

Also when God say he regards the heart..he was saying that because of David's size/age, they didn't think much of him. All throughout the bible God speaks of how he uses the simple to prove the wise, how he uses those are that regarded as nothing for his purpose. That verse meant nothing about skin color. Does God love everyone? Yes, if you aren't wicked. God hates wickedness.

I mean, who even created different nations and set the lines between them? God. Who actually chose a people for himself? God.

Now ask yourself why he did that. And it wasn't to bring glory to themselves.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Well....if it didn't matter so much, why did they paint him the way they did? Then go on to conquer and taint the real gospel with heresies and lies?

HI's focus so much on it because for them, it's a big deal. You mean all this time, we're related to Christ? This is why we were enslaved? The history goes so much deeper than I can go into right now.

You've never been in the place of such a downtrodded people, and made to forget who you were. Stripped of your very essence...so I understand why you wouldn't care. Forget about all historical context, if that's all you feel you must do at this point in your life. Maybe it's not meant for you to understand or ever believe.

And you're right, the bible doesn't promote racism. Even the bible tells the Israelite "thou shalt not abhor an Edomite", just like it tells everyone else "thou shalt not commit adultery", yet, some people fall to that sin.

Do you condemn ALL believing HI's for the sin of some? Do you condemn ALL pastors for the sin that some fall to?

Pray that they come to the knowledge of the truth. Some people are really out there trying.

Given that the same sentiment about the pagan confusion and westernisation of the Gospel and the ethnicity of Jesus, many Christians have also embraced the Hebrew Roots and Restored Name of God movements.

I can understand why, I really can - I nearly did myself, but it doesn't make me fall for the Hegelian Dialectic and push so far in the other direction that I fall for an equal and opposite error. Perhaps some people might understand what I mean.

 

[Claire Rousseau]

I don’t believe anything about a Jesus. He was irrelevant to God and that he will be to me !

What god do you follow?

 

[pumkinspice]

A good book to read is "Hebrewisms of West Africa" by Joseph J Williams

 

[pumkinspice]

Given that the same sentiment about the pagan confusion and westernisation of the Gospel and the ethnicity of Jesus, many Christians have also embraced the Hebrew Roots and Restored Name of God movements.

I can understand why, I really can - I nearly did myself, but it doesn't make me fall for the Hegelian Dialectic and push so far in the other direction that I fall for an equal and opposite error. Perhaps some people might understand what I mean.

What is the error in calling Christ or God by the name ancient people knew him by?

I call God by the name He gave Moses in Exodus 3:14. Many people reject this even among HI's. But I think it can't get any more obvious that God says right after "tell them I AM sent you" and that "this is my name for the memorial of generations".

I call Christ the Hebrew word for Savior, Yasha, going off what Mary named him in Matthew.

This is my attempt to get to know God more, making an effort to call him by his correct name and not the title "God".

If you feel more comfortable calling him God and calling Christ, Jesus, then by all means do so. You must be convinced in your own mind. Don't worship falsely. But I don't think its fair to make it seem like it's going to the other end of the spectrum..I think it's matter of preference and what God has lead to you at this moment in time.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Yes! I think I've heard about that tribe.

A good book to read is "Hebrewisms of West Africa" by Joseph J Williams

I think it's worth pointing out that it is a fact of record that there were "lost tribes of Israel" and that Judah was the kingdom that had greater longevity. Both Israel and Judah were populated by real Hebrew Israelites.

The fact that some if not all of the Jews in Israel today are descendants of the diaspora of Jews who Rome scattered to the nations does not mean that there were no Hebrews I.e Israelites who had an earlier diaspora after the Assyrian invasion and Babylonian captivity.

They may well crop up as distinct subcultures within other nations, even if they have lost some of their Jewish identity and customs.

Interesting link:

https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/ask-the-expert-lost-tribes/

 

[pumkinspice]

I think it's worth pointing out that it is a fact of record that there were "lost tribes of Israel" and that Judah was the kingdom that had greater longevity. Both Israel and Judah were populated by real Hebrew Israelites.

The fact that some if not all of the Jews in Israel today are descendants of the diaspora of Jews who Rome scattered to the nations does not mean that there were no Hebrews who had an earlier diaspora after the Assyrian iBabylonian captivity.

They may well crop up as distinct subcultures within other nations, even if they have lost some of their Jewish identity and customs.

Interesting link:

https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/ask-the-expert-lost-tribes/

Well I do take whatever Jewish people say with a grain of salt unless I can find it in scripture.

That said, I do believe HI's are scattered all over the world. I'm not sure if anyone read it, but I believe HI's aren't only black people but natives, some Asians and Africans, in the middle east, central and south americans as well. It was said they'd be like the sand of the sea. Some don't look like the ancient HI's due to mixture, this is said in the bible as well in 2 kings I think.

But I don't believe any of the Jewish people in Israel are really who they say they are, and I definitely they have no right to say who is and isn't Israel since they don't even believe or follow the OT.

Jeremiah 16 KJV
13 Therefore will I cast you out of this land into a land that ye know not, neither ye nor your fathers; and there shall ye serve other gods day and night; where I will not shew you favour.

So called Jewish people and everyone in the middle east was familiar with what we call Europe. But they weren't familiar with the "new world" AKA the Americas and other undiscovered lands. This verse was addressed to Judah, Benjamin and Levi who was still in the land at the time. The Northern Kingdom had already went into captivity. Judah and the rest was prophesied to join them. Compare this with the curses in Deuteronomy.

Luke 21:24
And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled

 

[pumkinspice]

Hosea 7:8
“Ephraim, he hath mixed himself among the people; Ephraim is a cake not turned.”

That's the verse I was talking about. It's in Hosea, not 2 Kings.

Ephraim includes all northern kingdoms tribes, as the tribe of Ephraim was the king over all north tribes, and they all went into captivity together.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Well I do take whatever Jewish people say with a grain of salt unless I can find it in scripture. When he mentions the Talmud in that article, I scoff.

That said, I do believe HI's are scattered all over the world. I'm not sure if anyone read it, but I believe HI's aren't only black people but natives, some Asians and Africans, in the middle east, central and south americans as well. It was said they'd be like the sand of the sea. Some don't look like the ancient HI's due to mixture, this is said in the bible as well in 2 kings I think.

But I don't believe any of the Jewish people in Israel are really who they say they are, and I definitely they have no right to say who is and isn't Israel since they don't even believe or follow the OT. Proof is in the pudding.

Jeremiah 16 KJV
13 Therefore will I cast you out of this land into a land that ye know not, neither ye nor your fathers; and there shall ye serve other gods day and night; where I will not shew you favour.

So called Jewish people and everyone in the middle east was familiar with what we call Europe. But they weren't familiar with the "new world" AKA the Americas. This verse was addressed to Judah, Benjamin and Levi who was still in the land at the time. The Northern Kingdom had already went into captivity. Compare this with the curses in Deuteronomy.

Luke 21:24
And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled

Taking the lost tribes thing a bit further, I read a great book by a Lakota Indian Chief called "That's What The Old Ones Say"...

Here is the synopsis in case it interests you...

"Untold stories? Untold outside of Ceremonial Grounds, Stomp Arbors, Powwow Grounds, and private family gatherings tucked away deep on tribal lands. I was honored and humbled to be able to sit and learn these old stories from elders hailing from many First Nations tribes. Comanche, Dineh, Apache, Anishinabe, Aztec, Cherokee, Creek, Cheyenne, Lakota, and Mohawk are a few of the First Nation's whose elders shared their beautiful stories with me. I listened eagerly to these stories that were passed down from generation to generation as understanding filled my hungry spirit. These are stories that were told before missionary contact and I realized with each story that I listened to I had heard them before...not from my tribe but from another ancient tribe who has left an impacting legacy on the earth when they wrote down their stories on scrolls which eventually became the Bible. The Creator planted the seed in my heart to write this book as a way to help build the bridge of reconciliation and healing between people and especially the "church" and Native America. You might laugh, cry, sing for joy or wail from the deepest parts of your soul. Betrayal, love, reconciliation, unity, sacrifice, joy, peace, history, the perseverance of the human spirit and the longing for Creator to heal our land and broken hearts. The same longing for our spirit to be uplifted from the only One who can give Hope in the face of utter defeat and despair. It is time for these stories to be shared with the world and for the prophecies to be listened to once again. Seneco Kakona (Many Blessings) - Chief Joseph RiverWind"

It changed my outlook. Very good read and not too long.

 

[pumkinspice]

Taking the lost tribes thing a bit further, I read a great book by a Lakota Indian Chief called "That's What The Old Ones Say"...

Here is the synopsis in case it interests you...

"Untold stories? Untold outside of Ceremonial Grounds, Stomp Arbors, Powwow Grounds, and private family gatherings tucked away deep on tribal lands. I was honored and humbled to be able to sit and learn these old stories from elders hailing from many First Nations tribes. Comanche, Dineh, Apache, Anishinabe, Aztec, Cherokee, Creek, Cheyenne, Lakota, and Mohawk are a few of the First Nation's whose elders shared their beautiful stories with me. I listened eagerly to these stories that were passed down from generation to generation as understanding filled my hungry spirit. These are stories that were told before missionary contact and I realized with each story that I listened to I had heard them before...not from my tribe but from another ancient tribe who has left an impacting legacy on the earth when they wrote down their stories on scrolls which eventually became the Bible. The Creator planted the seed in my heart to write this book as a way to help build the bridge of reconciliation and healing between people and especially the "church" and Native America. You might laugh, cry, sing for joy or wail from the deepest parts of your soul. Betrayal, love, reconciliation, unity, sacrifice, joy, peace, history, the perseverance of the human spirit and the longing for Creator to heal our land and broken hearts. The same longing for our spirit to be uplifted from the only One who can give Hope in the face of utter defeat and despair. It is time for these stories to be shared with the world and for the prophecies to be listened to once again. Seneco Kakona (Many Blessings) - Chief Joseph RiverWind"

It changed my outlook. Very good read and not too long.

Thank you for that...is there a PDF version?

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Thank you for that...is there a PDF version?

Not sure but it was pretty cheap on Kindle anyway...

https://www.amazon.com/Thats-What-Old-Ones-Say-ebook/dp/B015QWL0DC

 

[Serveto]

The Bible does NOT promote racism of any kind ...

It's not necessarily the promotion of racism, agreed, but, as I read it (granted, without understanding, which is why I usually ask Christians to explain), the notion of Jewish preeminence in relation to salvation seems clearly expressed not only in the Old Testament but also the New. For instance, Jesus himself told the (non-Jewish) Samaritan woman at the well that "salvation is of the Jews," and later, St. Paul, becoming apparently fed up with their, "the Jews'," blasphemy and intransigence, shook his clothes and went to the gentiles. Further down the road, in his epistle to the Romans, he seems to indicate that Jews are offered salvation first, and then gentiles, or Greeks. That was all part of what Christians propose as the "salvation plan."

I say all of that to say that, as I see it, Christianity, even though it transmuted and transformed the idea of Jewish particularism into a universal religion irrespective of racial and other distinctions, yet contains some of these ideas in germinal state and form.

According to the Bible, we are all of one race: the human race. We all come from the same 2 parents, Adam & Eve, if you go back far enough.

Even here I think there are esoteric Talmudic and other "interpretations" of the Bible which claim that Eve, well, shagged the serpent and had a species (Cain), or sub-races of offspring which are not Adamic, or fully human. If we get into these discussions too deeply, we can find some of those ideas in the so called white racialist "Christian Identity" movement, which plays the Talmudic card but in reverse, and calls Jews, blacks and others spawn of Satan. I expect, as well, to find something comparable in the more hard-core and extreme HI and related movements in relation to whites and other racial categories. Some of this stuff gets very messy indeed.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

It's not necessarily the promotion of racism, agreed, but, as I read it (granted, without understanding, which is why I usually ask Christians to explain), the notion of Jewish preeminence in relation to salvation seems clearly expressed not only in the Old Testament but also the New. For instance, Jesus himself told the (non-Jewish) Samaritan woman at the well that "salvation is of the Jews," and later, St. Paul, becoming apparently fed up with their, "the Jews'," blasphemy and intransigence, shook his clothes and went to the gentiles. Further down the road, in his epistle to the Romans, he seems to indicate that Jews are offered salvation first, and then gentiles, or Greeks. That was all part of what Christians propose as the "salvation plan."

I say all of that to say that Christianity, even though it transmuted and transformed the idea of Jewish particularism into a universal religion irrespective of racial and other distinctions, yet contains some of these ideas in germinal state.

Even here I think there are esoteric Talmudic "interpretations" of the Bible which claim that Eve, well, shagged the serpent and had a species, or sub-races of offspring which are not Adamic, or fully human. If we get into these discussions too deeply, we can find some of those ideas in the so called white racialist "Christian Identity" movement, which plays the Talmudic card but in reverse, and calls Jews, blacks and others spawn of Satan. I expect, as well, to find something comparable in the more hard-core and extreme HI and related movements in relation to whites and other racial categories. Some of this stuff gets very messy indeed.

Those who ask the hardest questions sometimes find the best answers. It's late here @Serveto but I would love to mull your observations over and get back to you over the weekend...



P.s. I always liked the image of Gandalf searching the scrolls to find out more about the one ring ;-)

 

[TokiEl]

It's not necessarily the promotion of racism, agreed, but, as I read it (granted, without understanding, which is why I usually ask Christians to explain), the notion of Jewish preeminence in relation to salvation seems clearly expressed not only in the Old Testament but also the New. For instance, Jesus himself told the (non-Jewish) Samaritan woman at the well that "salvation is of the Jews," and later, St. Paul, becoming apparently fed up with their, "the Jews'," blasphemy and intransigence, shook his clothes and went to the gentiles. Further down the road, in his epistle to the Romans, he seems to indicate that Jews are offered salvation first, and then gentiles, or Greeks. That was all part of what Christians propose as the "salvation plan."

Jesus Christ the Saviour was a Jew and so salvation is of/from the Jews.

 

[TokiEl]

I understand that. But another point is that Jews were offered salvation first, they had first dibs, and because they rejected, the path to salvation was enlarged to include gentiles. The Jewish loss, in that sense, was the gentiles' gain. That was essentially how the gentiles were "engrafted" onto an heretofore Jewish vine, or tree. Although I am necessarily simplifying, have I correctly understood?

Yes and so it was very important that the Jews rejected the Messiah.

Luckily for the gentiles the Jews are a stubborn stiffnecked people.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

I understand that. But another point is that Jews were offered salvation first, they had first dibs, and because they rejected, the path to salvation was enlarged to include gentiles. The Jewish loss, in that sense, was the gentiles' gain. That was essentially how the gentiles were "engrafted" onto an heretofore Jewish vine, or tree. Although I am necessarily simplifying, have I correctly understood?

The passage of interest here is Romans 11

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+11&version=NKJV&interface=amp

Verse 11 is the crux of it...

"11I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. 12Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?"

So... You have to ask yourself the question

What is (or will be) their fullness?

 

[TokiEl]

Right. That is what I thought was being said. Yet again, we enter the realm of St. Paul's dichotomies: in this case the correlation of gentile salvation to relative Jewish preeminence. So, now that we are here, it seems to me that, if one follows this Pauline logic to its end, it might also be said that it was very important that "the" Jews colluded with Rome in the crucifixion of Jesus: if they hadn't, there would have been no blood by means of which Christians are said to be redeemed. Therefore, should Jews not be thanked instead of censured for the act?

Yes and so it doesn't make any sense for Christians to accuse Jews of Deicide.

We ought to be eternally grateful for the stubborn Jews who in collusion with the Romans spilled the atoning blood of God.

And as your verse shows they even spoke blood rain blessings upon their souls.

So God took cruel human intent and act and turned it into Salvation.

 

[Vytas]

So what would have happened to gentiles if Jews accepted Jesus as their messiah ?