"Hebrew Israelite" theology discussed...

Joined
Mar 17, 2017
Messages
2,342
Im not hiding from anything,
Sure you are and that's fine. But you cant say that its racist, and then when i say that the bible says that gentiles went with Israelites out of Egypt during the first exodus and that Isaiah 56 says that foreigners will be accepted (who obey) and furthermore, given a better name than sons and daughters come back and say youre above responding and repeat our "its racist" claims. Thats lazy and just shows youre hiding behind the labels youre throwing around.


Ugh, what utter nonsense this is, there is literally hundreds of thousands of people in Africa that celebrate their own unique Cultures and Identity. What a load of garbage that Europeans stripped all your Culture, all you have to do is Google African Culture and there are literally billions of hits. It would be helpful for you to identify with your actual Culture than to try and hijack anothers Culture and claim it as your own. Again I can only see someone who is either ignorant of or ashamed of their own Culture trying to hijack others Culture to claim it as their own. Or another crazy thing, are you American? How many generations of your family have been in America? Guess what you can also claim American Culture as your own!!! Wow how insane is that!!!
OK so your advice is that I go to a map of Africa, close my eyes, and point to a place and that will be the culture I once had? The hundreds if not thousands of cultures littered throughout Africa and you're suggesting that I just pick one and the culture I once had will be restored to its rightful place? Without mentioning that there were blacks in america just as there was in Africa, but like I said, you're not going to address whitewashing of history just as you won't the thread topic. Not because youre "above" it but because you can't in all actuality put forth a logical rebuttal.

And I wouldn't have to hijack if your leaders told the truth about history. Since they choose to instead whitewash it, well, we have to do the dirty work ourselves to figure out who we are
I am German mainly, but I dont need to identify as that or say that I am IDK African and claim myself as such either, I am happy claiming the fact that I live in America and will rep that if necessary. To be honest tho, I am not one to care about Ethnic Heritage personally, I find my identity in Jesus Christ, the creator of the World and who is above all individual Cultures or Ethnicities. As for those who inherit the Promises given to Abraham, its open to the entire World not just some Ethnic Race:

Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise
.

But you dont accept this you think Jesus is a False Messiah...
Sorry bub. The promises to Abraham were only to his descendants according to the OT that you only refer to when convenient. And if you want to be part of that promise, which is openly available to anyone, you have to abide by the same law Israel was supposed to. That's what the OT, not KM, says.

And biblically speaking God respected righteousness and obedience. He never respected Israel just because they were Israel. But that's that scriptural talk you're allegedly above.
 

Yahda

Veteran
Joined
Mar 14, 2017
Messages
711
God saved Israel for his own name sake. Isaiah 48:9/43:25 Also because of the promise of his covenant.

Luckily it’s God’s chosen people. If it wasn’t for these things He would be about 2 seconds off Israel’s behind. Isaiah 44:22/45:17. O, and can’t forget his loyal love and mercy. Lamentations 3:22

In regard to our transgressions it clearly says we will have to be cleaned and refined. Through fire and water given a new heart and a new spirit.
 
Last edited:

Red Sky at Morning

Superstar
Joined
Mar 15, 2017
Messages
14,679
To make it easier for you to answer the question: Do you think “the jews” and JUDAH are the same people ?
Judah was a tribe which formed a subset of "the Jews". I guess like saying are Texans and Americans the same people?

P.s. does the video in the OP accurately represent Hebrew Israelite theology? If not, where does the speaker misunderstand or misrepresent it?
 
Last edited:

Yahda

Veteran
Joined
Mar 14, 2017
Messages
711
Judah was a tribe which formed a subset of "the Jews". I guess like saying are Texans and Americans the same people?

P.s. does the video in the OP accurately represent Hebrew Israelite theology? If not, where does the speaker misunderstand or misrepresent it?

Unfortunately for you God said he was coming back for Israel and Judah. Not some knock off tribe. Not to mention you calling today’s synagogue of Satan a tribe is quite laughable. Btw no I didn’t watch the video. Stick with the scriptures.
 

Serveto

Star
Joined
Apr 20, 2017
Messages
1,043
I don't have any documentaries or websites that I could recommend. All I can do is give you what I know to the best of my ability as I try to leave things at what the scriptures say and not what one ideology or religion says.
That's an excellent start. I know (and respect) how studious you are, so I hope to benefit from some of that and get up to speed.

When trying to explain these things to people who do not believe the bible I simply point out how the ancient Egyptians were a people of color unlike the modern day Jews. And this is relevant because moses and Joseph were mistaken for Egyptians in the bible. I think that (potential) discrepancy is a good starting point for discussion if the scripture side isn't your thing,
In an inquiry of this type, I think many disciplines would come into play: sacred scripture, history, archaeology, genetics, etymology and so on. I am willing to consider anything relevant. As for Moses and Joseph passing as Egyptians, no problem. I indicated above that I don't dismiss or ridicule the general proposition that there are, or could be, black Israelites. Not at all. Why should I? Even the state of Israel, for all of its faults, which I never tire of pointing out, recognizes, for instance, the Beyt Yisrael, or Beta Israel community of Ethiopian Jews as "Jews," which seems to be the popular, though in my opinion certainly inexact, word for Israelites.
 
Last edited:

Red Sky at Morning

Superstar
Joined
Mar 15, 2017
Messages
14,679
@Yahda

"you calling today’s synagogue of Satan a tribe is quite laughable"...

I don't think you understood me properly there - Judah was a tribe of historic Israel. The records for the tribes were lost at the destruction of the temple so I don't think those in the tribe of Judah would know it now.

The synagogue of Satan is a very interesting one, given our time in history. It may be that a subset of (perhaps just the kind of esoteric, Kabbalistic etc discussed on VCF) Jews will embrace the Antichrist as their promised Messiah, therefore literally identifying themselves as the "Synagogue of Satan". That's just my interpretation btw, but it might turn out that way.
 

Yahda

Veteran
Joined
Mar 14, 2017
Messages
711
@Yahda

"you calling today’s synagogue of Satan a tribe is quite laughable"...

I don't think you understood me properly there - Judah was a tribe of historic Israel. The records for the tribes were lost at the destruction of the temple so I don't think those in the tribe of Judah would know it now.

The synagogue of Satan is a very interesting one, given our time in history. It may be that a subset of (perhaps just the kind of esoteric, Kabbalistic etc discussed on VCF) Jews will embrace the Antichrist as their promised Messiah, therefore literally becoming the "Synagogue of Satan". That's just my interpretation btw, but it might turn out that way.
“ so I don’t think the tribe of Judah would know it now” Thankyou. That’s the best thing you have said. According to scripture their identities along with everything else was stolen spiritually and physically. The real people of God have no clue, the majority anyway. Some are just now catching on.

For the most part they are caught up in the religions of wood and stone worshiping false gods, practicing bad practices.....not having a clue as to who they are. However the awakening has begun

On another note in regard to the jews who say they are jews having a genetic link to the real jews....I have referenced a book on a few occasions where even the Jews who say they are jews admit that’s a lie.

I’ll up date with the reference later this evening. I think it’s called the askenazi jewelry. I’ll update and post the passage again.
 

Red Sky at Morning

Superstar
Joined
Mar 15, 2017
Messages
14,679
“ so I don’t think the tribe of Judah would know it now” Thankyou. That’s the best thing you have said. According to scripture their identities along with everything else was stolen spiritually and physically. The real people of God have no clue, the majority anyway. Some are just now catching on.

For the most part they are caught up in the religions of wood and stone worshiping false gods, practicing bad practices.....not having a clue as to who they are. However the awakening has begun

On another note in regard to the jews who say they are jews having a genetic link to the real jews....I have referenced a book on a few occasions where even the Jews who say they are jews admit that’s a lie.

I’ll up date with the reference later this evening. I think it’s called the askenazi jewelry. I’ll update and post the passage again.
"According to scripture their identities along with everything else was stolen spiritually and physically. The real people of God have no clue, the majority anyway."

Would I be guessing right to say you believe the true tribe of Judah is what us "Edomites" refer to as African-Americans, or am I reading things wrong?
 

Yahda

Veteran
Joined
Mar 14, 2017
Messages
711
"According to scripture their identities along with everything else was stolen spiritually and physically. The real people of God have no clue
"According to scripture their identities along with everything else was stolen spiritually and physically. The real people of God have no clue, the majority anyway."

Would I be guessing right to say you believe the true tribe of Judah is what us "Edomites" refer to as African-Americans, or am I reading things wrong?

What I will say is that it is obvious based on scripture, the history of African Americans, African dna/genetics period in regard to its place creation......that African Americans and others scattered to the four corners of the earth, are one of the strongest contenders if not the only contender.

I think that’s what scares people like you. You know in your heart it’s a strong possibility it could be true.

As I have said before. I didn’t ask to be a Jew or one of God’s chosen. After all the years I spent in church I still didn’t even know what it was or meant. Why ? That was the purpose and importance of the church/religion of the oppressor in regard to slavery.

It’s purpose was to take you away from your God and his laws and stir you to the god of other nations. The NT/Jesus. The same role it plays today.

Anyway. I was always one to read the Bible, and at the same time it was my goal to uncover African Americans history. Two different things. Something I studied all of my life to no avail.

It was God who showed me I was a Jew. It was him who collided my two life paths. He said I was a Jew, a son of Jacob, a child of Israel. My reaction was Jacob, who is that ,what, when, Israel, where and why ????......It was God who began to reveal his word to me and at the end of the day it made perfect sense. So again. I didn’t ask to be a Jew. I was one.
 
Last edited:

Red Sky at Morning

Superstar
Joined
Mar 15, 2017
Messages
14,679
@Yahda

Can I just say that if my parents or grandparents had Christianity used against them as a form of racial oppression, I would be drawn to a theology where they would in the end serve those who they had oppressed. That's not to add or take away from the Hebrew Israelite perspective btw.

On a personal note, I am a white guy and attend a church mainly led by black Christians. I love them as brothers and sisters, neither looking up or looking down on them due to the fact that I am a son of Japheth and they are mainly descendants of Ham...

P.s. don't think I am being dismissive here - I have done a little reading myself...

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/forward.com/news/348199/new-hebrew-israelite-chief-rabbi-capers-funnye-makes-a-play-for-history/?gamp
 
Last edited:

Red Sky at Morning

Superstar
Joined
Mar 15, 2017
Messages
14,679
@pumkinspice

Sometimes to head in the right direction, you need to make sure you focus on the right thing...

John 10

"7Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep. 8All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them .9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture. 10The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly."

title-slide.001-760x360.jpg
 

pumkinspice

Established
Joined
Feb 5, 2018
Messages
129
Israel is a nation of people who have/are going through certain curses that can only pertain to them. I do believe blacks, native americans, south americans, some Africans, Filipinos and others around the world fit this description. It is said in the scriptures that Israel wouldn't remember who they are, and they will never again see their land until Christ comes. Jewish people do not fit this description. White people are not Japheth, they are Esau. Hamites are east Africans, and if you dig deep into their history even they realize it. To realize these things, are not racist. God created all nations for his purpose. And God has made sure through prophecy to show who is who in the Bible. (Read the story of Esau and Jacob, their characteristics, also in 2nd Esdras "Esau is the end of the world, Jacob the beginning of it that followeth). Are some Hebrew Israelites aggressive? Yes. Are they right? Of course not. Even in Christ's day there were zealots, and hopefully with time they can forgive and accept their own part in why they are in the position they are in today. On the other hand, many many Hebrew Israelites out there share and walk in the love of Christ. They understand, like Christ taught, the one who is greatest will be your servant (God's chosen people are here to keep God's law in the earth, to lead righteously, to set the example). You won't see them with millions of youtube views and on the media though. Because that would intrigue some people and bring them to the Truth, which will ultimately lead them to God.
 

pumkinspice

Established
Joined
Feb 5, 2018
Messages
129
@pumkinspice

Sometimes to head in the right direction, you need to make sure you focus on the right thing...

John 10

"7Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep. 8All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them .9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture. 10The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly."

View attachment 3971
Yes, I know that. Which is why I said there are Hebrew Israelites who walk in the love of Christ, and if not, they should. Does a chosen people negate Christ? Of course not...To recognize that there is indeed a chosen people is to understand why Christ came in the first place. Who was Christ even preaching to in that instance?

Matthew 15:24 King James Version (KJV)
24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Because they lost their way. Christ also said:

Matthew 5 (KJV)
13 Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.
14 Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.
15 Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.
16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

Because the Israelites weren't chosen to bring glory to themselves, but to God and Christ. To keep the oracles of God.

Romans 3 (KJV)
1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

Now, I know were you're coming from. Those HI's who all about hating the white man and making everything about the flesh. Are there not even Christians who take the Word and distort it to something completely different, and use it for evil? In both cases, they either don't understand and will get it later what the point is, or they do understand but just want to feed their insecurities and/or flesh. Do we toss the baby out with the bath water?

I have to ask: if the jewish people really were the True Hebrews, and weren't evil like they were, would there still be a problem?
 
Last edited:

Red Sky at Morning

Superstar
Joined
Mar 15, 2017
Messages
14,679
Yes, I know that. Which is why I said there are Hebrew Israelites who walk in the love of Christ, and if not, they should. Does a chosen people negate Christ? Of course not...To recognize that there is indeed a chosen people is to understand why Christ came in the first place. Who was Christ even preaching to in that instance?

Matthew 15:24 King James Version (KJV)
24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Because they lost their way. Christ also said:

Matthew 5 (KJV)
13 Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.
14 Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.
15 Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.
16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

Because the Israelites weren't chosen to bring glory to themselves, but to God and Christ. To keep the oracles of God.

Romans 3 (KJV)
1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

Now, I know were you're coming from. Those HI's who all about hating the white man and making everything about the flesh. Are there not even Christians who take the Word and distort it to something completely different, and use it for evil? In both cases, they either don't understand and will get it later what the point is, or they do understand but just want to feed their insecurities and/or flesh. Do we toss the baby out with the bath water?

I have to ask: if the jewish people really were the True Hebrews, and weren't evil like they were, would there still be a problem?
The preface to "Mere Christianity" puts into words a reply I would love to have crafted but may never attain to the same eloquence...


Truth According to Scripture

"The reader should be warned that I offer no help to anyone who is hesitating between two Christian "denominations." You will not learn from me whether you ought to become an Anglican, a Methodist, a Presbyterian, or a Roman Catholic.

This omission is intentional (even in the list I have just given the order is alphabetical). There is no mystery about my own position. I am a very ordinary layman of the Church of England, not especially "high," nor especially "low," nor especially anything else. But in this book I am not trying to convert anyone to my own position. Ever since I became a Christian I have thought that the best, perhaps the only, service I could do for my unbelieving neighbours was to explain and defend the belief that has been common to nearly all Christians at all times. I had more than one reason for thinking this. In the first place, the questions which divide Christians from one another often involve points of high Theology or even of ecclesiastical history which ought never to be treated except by real experts.

I should have been out of my depth in such waters: more in need of help myself than able to help others. And secondly, I think we must admit that the discussion of these disputed points has no tendency at all to bring an outsider into the Christian fold. So long as we write and talk about them we are much more likely to deter him from entering any Christian communion than to draw him into our own. Our divisions should never be discussed except in the presence of those who have already come to believe that there is one God and that Jesus Christ is His only Son. Finally, I got the impression that far more, and more talented, authors were already engaged in such controversial matters than in the defence of what Baxter calls "mere" Christianity. That part of the line where I thought I could serve best was also the part that seemed to be thinnest. And to it I naturally went.

So far as I know, these were my only motives, and I should be very glad if people would not draw fanciful inferences from my silence on certain disputed matters.

For example, such silence need not mean that I myself am sitting on the fence. Sometimes I am. There are questions at issue between Christians to which I do not think I have the answer. There are some to which I may never know the answer: if I asked them, even in a better world, I might (for all I know) be answered as a far greater questioner was answered: "What is that to thee? Follow thou Me." But there are other questions as to which I am definitely on one side of the fence, and yet say nothing. For I was not writing to expound something I could call "my religion," but to expound "mere" Christianity, which is what it is and was what it was long before I was born and whether I like it or not.



Some people draw unwarranted conclusions from the fact that I never say more about the Blessed Virgin Mary than is involved in asserting the Virgin Birth of Christ. But surely my reason for not doing so is obvious? To say more would take me at once into highly controversial regions. And there is no controversy between Christians which needs to be so delicately touched as this. The Roman Catholic beliefs on that subject are held not only with the ordinary fervour that attaches to all sincere religious belief, but (very naturally) with the peculiar and, as it were, chivalrous sensibility that a man feels when the honour of his mother or his beloved is at stake.

It is very difficult so to dissent from them that you will not appear to them a cad as well as a heretic. And contrariwise, the opposed Protestant beliefs on this subject call forth feelings which go down to the very roots of all Monotheism whatever. To radical Protestants it seems that the distinction between Creator and creature (however holy) is imperilled: that Polytheism is risen again. Hence it is hard so to dissent from them that you will not appear something worse than a heretic—an idolater, a Pagan. If any topic could be relied upon to wreck a book about "mere" Christianity—if any topic makes utterly unprofitable reading for those who do not yet believe that the Virgin's son is God—surely this is it.

Oddly enough, you cannot even conclude, from my silence on disputed points, either that I think them important or that I think them unimportant. For this is itself one of the disputed points. One of the things Christians are disagreed about is the importance of their disagreements. When two Christians of different denominations start arguing, it is usually not long before one asks whether such-and-such a point "really matters" and the other replies: "Matter? Why, it's absolutely essential."

All this is said simply in order to make clear what kind of book I was trying to write; not in the least to conceal or evade responsibility for my own beliefs. About those, as I said before, there is no secret. To quote Uncle Toby: "They are written in the Common-Prayer Book."

The danger dearly was that I should put forward as common Christianity anything that was peculiar to the Church of England or (worse still) to myself. I tried to guard against this by sending the original script of what is now Book II to four clergymen (Anglican, Methodist, Presbyterian, Roman Catholic) and asking for their criticism. The Methodist thought I had not said enough about Faith, and the Roman Catholic thought I had gone rather too far about the comparative unimportance of theories in explanation of the Atonement. Otherwise all five of us were agreed. I did not have the remaining books similarly "vetted" because in them, though differences might arise among Christians, these would be differences between individuals or schools of thought, not between denominations.

So far as I can judge from reviews and from the numerous letters written to me, the book, however faulty in other respects, did at least succeed in presenting an agreed, or common, or central, or "mere" Christianity. In that way it may possibly be of some help in silencing the view that, if we omit the disputed points, we shall have left only a vague and bloodless H.C.F. The H.C.F. turns out to be something not only positive but pungent; divided from all non-Christian beliefs by a chasm to which the worst divisions inside Christendom are not really comparable at all.

If I have not directly helped the cause of reunion, I have perhaps made it clear why we ought to be reunited. Certainly I have met with little of the fabled odium theologicum from convinced members of communions different from my own. Hostility has come more from borderline people whether within the Church of England or without it: men not exactly obedient to any communion. This I find curiously consoling. It is at her centre, where her truest children dwell, that each communion is really closest to every other in spirit, if not in doctrine. And this suggests that at the centre of each there is something, or a Someone, who against all divergences of belief, all differences of temperament, all memories of mutual persecution, speaks with the same voice.

So much for my omissions on doctrine. In Book III, which deals with morals, I have also passed over some things in silence, but for a different reason. Ever since I served as an infantryman in the first world war I have had a great dislike of people who, themselves in ease and safety, issue exhortations to men in the front line. As a result I have a reluctance to say much about temptations to which I myself am not exposed. No man, I suppose, is tempted to every sin. It so happens that the impulse which makes men gamble has been left out of my make-up; and, no doubt, I pay for this by lacking some good impulse of which it is the excess or perversion. I therefore did not feel myself qualified to give advice about permissable and impermissable gambling: if there is any permissable, for I do not claim to know even that. I have also said nothing about birth-control. I am not a woman nor even a married man, nor am I a priest. I did not think it my place to take a firm line about pains, dangers and expenses from which I am protected; having no pastoral office which obliged me to do so.

Far deeper objections may be felt—and have been expressed— against my use of the word Christian to mean one who accepts the common doctrines of Christianity. People ask: "Who are you, to lay down who is, and who is not a Christian?" or "May not many a man who cannot believe these doctrines be far more truly a Christian, far closer to the spirit of Christ, than some who do?" Now this objection is in one sense very right, very charitable, very spiritual, very sensitive. It has every amiable quality except that of being useful. We simply cannot, without disaster, use language as these objectors want us to use it. I will try to make this clear by the history of another, and very much less important, word.

The word gentleman originally meant something recognisable; one who had a coat of arms and some landed property. When you called someone "a gentleman" you were not paying him a compliment, but merely stating a fact. If you said he was not "a gentleman" you were not insulting him, but giving information. There was no contradiction in saying that John was a liar and a gentleman; any more than there now is in saying that James is a fool and an M.A. But then there came people who said—so rightly, charitably, spiritually, sensitively, so anything but usefully—"Ah, but surely the important thing about a gentleman is not the coat of arms and the land, but the behaviour? Surely he is the true gentleman who behaves as a gentleman should? Surely in that sense Edward is far more truly a gentleman than John?"

They meant well. To be honourable and courteous and brave is of course a far better thing than to have a coat of arms. But it is not the same thing. Worse still, it is not a thing everyone will agree about. To call a man "a gentleman" in this new, refined sense, becomes, in fact, not a way of giving information about him, but a way of praising him: to deny that he is "a gentleman" becomes simply a way of insulting him. When a word ceases to be a term of description and becomes merely a term of praise, it no longer tells you facts about the object: it only tells you about the speaker's attitude to that object. (A "nice" meal only means a meal the speaker likes.)

A gentleman, once it has been spiritualised and refined out of its old coarse, objective sense, means hardly more than a man whom the speaker likes. As a result, gentleman is now a useless word. We had lots of terms of approval already, so it was not needed for that use; on the other hand if anyone (say, in a historical work) wants to use it in its old sense, he cannot do so without explanations. It has been spoiled for that purpose.

Now if once we allow people to start spiritualising and refining, or as they might say "deepening," the sense of the word Christian, it too will speedily become a useless word. In the first place, Christians themselves will never be able to apply it to anyone. It is not for us to say who, in the deepest sense, is or is not close to the spirit of Christ. We do not see into men's hearts. We cannot judge, and are indeed forbidden to judge.

It would be wicked arrogance for us to say that any man is, or is not, a Christian in this refined sense. And obviously a word which we can never apply is not going to be a very useful word. As for the unbelievers, they will no doubt cheerfully use the word in the refined sense. It will become in their mouths simply a term of praise. In calling anyone a Christian they will mean that they think him a good man. But that way of using the word will be no enrichment of the language, for we already have the word good. Meanwhile, the word Christian will have been spoiled for any really useful purpose it might have served.

We must therefore stick to the original, obvious meaning. The name Christians was first given at Antioch (Acts 11:26) to "the disciples," to those who accepted the teaching of the apostles. There is no question of its being restricted to those who profited by that teaching as much as they should have. There is no question of its being extended to those who in some refined, spiritual, inward fashion were "far closer to the spirit of Christ" than the less satisfactory of the disciples. The point is not a theological, or moral one. It is only a question of using words so that we can all understand what is being said. When a man who accepts the Christian doctrine lives unworthily of it, it is much clearer to say he is a bad Christian than to say he is not a Christian.

I hope no reader will suppose that "mere" Christianity is here put forward as an alternative to the creeds of the existing communions—as if a man could adopt it in preference to Congregationalism or Greek Orthodoxy or anything else. It is more like a hall out of which doors open into several rooms. If I can bring anyone into that hall I shall have done what I attempted. But it is in the rooms, not in the hall, that there are fires and chairs and meals. The hall is a place to wait in, a place from which to try the various doors, not a place to live in. For that purpose the worst of the rooms (whichever that may be) is, I think, preferable.

It is true that some people may find they have to wait in the hall for a considerable time, while others feel certain almost at once which door they must knock at. I do not know why there is this difference, but I am sure God keeps no one waiting unless He sees that it is good for him to wait. When you do get into your room you will find that the long wait has done you some kind of good which you would not have had otherwise. But you must regard it as waiting, not as camping. You must keep on praying for light: and, of course, even in the hall, you must begin trying to obey the rules which are common to the whole house. And above all you must be asking which door is the true one; not which pleases you best by its paint and paneling.

In plain language, the question should never be: "Do I like that kind of service?" but "Are these doctrines true: Is holiness here? Does my conscience move me towards this? Is my reluctance to knock at this door due to my pride, or my mere taste, or my personal dislike of this particular door-keeper?"

When you have reached your own room, be kind to those Who have chosen different doors and to those who are still in the hall. If they are wrong they need your prayers all the more; and if they are your enemies, then you are under orders to pray for them. That is one of the rules common to the whole house."
 

pumkinspice

Established
Joined
Feb 5, 2018
Messages
129
I'm at work and don't have the time to read all of that, but from what I have read I have this reply:

2 Peter 1:20 (KJV)
knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

what I'm getting from the excerpt, what I've read so far of it, is that we should not focus on topics that could potentially cause divisions and diversions but on Christ only. I agree and disagree. Should we focus on Christ and his walk, and aspire to be like him? Yes, I agree wholeheartedly. As the son of God, the first born of all creation, the Word, he is the way the truth and the life.

Should we not focus on any other concepts in the bible because they may be too hard to understand, and just leave it to the "experts"? I can't agree with that. The disciples had to address certain doctrines as the church grew to ensure they were in line with the gospel and the law. We are expected to study the scriptures and show ourselves approved, this includes going into topics that aren't popular and maybe misinterpreted by the modern day church. After all, the earth is given into the hand of the wicked. Churches and Christian denominations all over the earth has been infiltrated by the Roman Catholic church and jewish fables (AKA Babylonian ideologies). The same thing was going on during the life of Christ and well before, which is why he came. God's people, the people who were supposed to uphold the truth (after all, the whole world was/is worshipping idols/fallen angels) in a world full of wickedness.

In fact, Christ and his disciples and followers weren't called Christians until they were called so by the Romans.

Acts 11:26 (KJV)
and when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.

To understand the bible we must first understand it isn't a Christian book, it's a book written by a nation of people, inspired by God, for that particular nation of people and all other nations who accept the Word of God. It's not a Christian book. The reason why I say that is because with Christianity, or Catholicism or any other Christian denomination, comes particular ideologies not found in the bible but age-old Babylonian and man-made traditions. In other words, confusion. God isn't the author of confusion. It's systemically made this way with so much conflicting Christian doctrines to draw people away from the truth, either into atheism or into accepting a watered down truth mixed with lies. This is why:

Isaiah 28:10 (KJV)
For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

Now everything I believe to be true and write on this forum, I do with reading scripture and using precepts. Looking at scriptures with unbiased eyes because I search for the truth and know that is expected of me, knowing what kind of world we live in. and I do it out of love. I apologize if I went totally out the way and took the excerpt out of context, please let me know. I feel like I went everywhere with this post, it's hard to work and focus on typing something like this at the same time.
 

Red Sky at Morning

Superstar
Joined
Mar 15, 2017
Messages
14,679
I'm at work and don't have the time to read all of that, but from what I have read I have this reply:

2 Peter 1:20 (KJV)
knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

what I'm getting from the excerpt, what I've read so far of it, is that we should not focus on topics that could potentially cause divisions and diversions but on Christ only. I agree and disagree. Should we focus on Christ and his walk, and aspire to be like him? Yes, I agree wholeheartedly. As the son of God, the first born of all creation, the Word, he is the way the truth and the life.

Should we not focus on any other concepts in the bible because they may be too hard to understand, and just leave it to the "experts"? I can't agree with that. The disciples had to address certain doctrines as the church grew to ensure they were in line with the gospel and the law. We are expected to study the scriptures and show ourselves approved, this includes going into topics that aren't popular and maybe misinterpreted by the modern day church. After all, the earth is given into the hand of the wicked. Churches and Christian denominations all over the earth has been infiltrated by the Roman Catholic church and jewish fables (AKA Babylonian ideologies). The same thing was going on during the life of Christ and well before, which is why he came. God's people, the people who were supposed to uphold the truth (after all, the whole world was/is worshipping idols/fallen angels) in a world full of wickedness.

In fact, Christ and his disciples and followers weren't called Christians until they were called so by the Romans.

Acts 11:26 (KJV)
and when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.

To understand the bible we must first understand it isn't a Christian book, it's a book written by a nation of people, inspired by God, for that particular nation of people and all other nations who accept the Word of God. It's not a Christian book. The reason why I say that is because with Christianity, or Catholicism or any other Christian denomination, comes particular ideologies not found in the bible but age-old Babylonian and man-made traditions. In other words, confusion. God isn't the author of confusion. It's systemically made this way with so much conflicting Christian doctrines to draw people away from the truth, either into atheism or into accepting a watered down truth mixed with lies. This is why:

Isaiah 28:10 (KJV)
For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

Now everything I believe to be true and write on this forum, I do with reading scripture and using precepts. Looking at scriptures with unbiased eyes because I search for the truth and know that is expected of me, knowing what kind of world we live in. and I do it out of love. I apologize if I went totally out the way and took the excerpt out of context, please let me know. I feel like I went everywhere with this post, it's hard to work and focus on typing something like this at the same time.
Sorry for such a long response - I really like the way Lewis writes and can read him for ages. Oddly, this message popped up in my YouTube feed which seemed to nail the discussion for me. I know @Yahda doesn't watch videos but you might find it really interesting, not about HI, but on the centrality of the Gospel.


On a secondary note, there are many Christians I like and respect here who have different theologies on what I would consider secondary things. I don't mind chatting over topics, and really don't care about "beating" people at debates. Sometimes its good just to talk through things and see where you end up!
 

Violette

Star
Joined
Apr 18, 2017
Messages
1,304
I definitely think black people can relate to Hebrews on a metaphorical level but not literally. Just because our ancestry was erased doesn’t mean we can just hijack someone else’s. All the Hebrew Israelites I’ve met were really weird...theyre supposedly very religious but a lot of them have partners they aren’t married to. The women are obligated to satisfy the men sexually but not vise versa, classic. I think they also deny the deity of Christ too so it’s a hard pass for me.
 
Joined
Jan 9, 2018
Messages
1,367
Sorry for such a long response - I really like the way Lewis writes and can read him for ages. Oddly, this message popped up in my YouTube feed which seemed to nail the discussion for me. I know @Yahda doesn't watch videos but you might find it really interesting, not about HI, but on the centrality of the Gospel.


On a secondary note, there are many Christians I like and respect here who have different theologies on what I would consider secondary things. I don't mind chatting over topics, and really don't care about "beating" people at debates. Sometimes its good just to talk through things and see where you end up!
I love His writing as well.

Have you also read The Great Divorce?

It is outstanding.
 
Top