Have men become obsolete?

Swiftturtle

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@ishigo
Cause we’ve been told masculinity is toxic and evil.
it never fails that the ppl telling me that masculinity is ‘toxic’ have never experienced Christ’s definition of what a man should be. Men, without Christ, that don’t treat women the way Jesus did and how the scriptures direct, are going to be toxic bc they serve ‘self’ and worldly desires. Society is choosing not to differentiate the two bc they’d have to acknowledge the fact that the traits they hate are of the world, while the traits that make a man a good leader, protector, and respectful align with teachings from a book and belief they loathe.
 

Robin

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it never fails that the ppl telling me that masculinity is ‘toxic’ have never experienced Christ’s definition of what a man should be. Men, without Christ, that don’t treat women the way Jesus did and how the scriptures direct, are going to be toxic bc they serve ‘self’ and worldly desires. Society is choosing not to differentiate the two bc they’d have to acknowledge the fact that the traits they hate are of the world, while the traits that make a man a good leader, protector, and respectful align with teachings from a book and belief they loathe.
tenor.gif
 

Swiftturtle

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Agree with @free2018. Plus, these tweets promote terrible gender stereotypes and those are what should be obsolete.
Gender stereotypes are exaggerated distortions of the special internal gifts that God instilled in men and women to balance out a partnership. By design, men usually crave the ability to be a provider & protector, and you can see the hit it takes on them when they aren’t able to fulfill that. On the flip, women are wired better for empathy & being caregivers, and you can see the hit it takes on a woman when she doesn’t have a place to channel those gifts.
Somehow, society twisted those into meaning specific things instead of seeing a birds eye view. Some men prefer serving ‘self’, whether that means making work their ‘wife & family,’ or being lazy and abandoning their gender wired gifts and burdening ppl in their lives instead. A lot of women are forced into things out of necessity, instead of being able to utilize their special gifts to care for a family. The nuclear family has been shredded and demonized on purpose. They used ‘gender roles’, something society itself ‘assigned’, as a shame pressure point to hijack the beauty of men & women having complimentary strengths & weaknesses. As a society, we’ve allowed worldly stereotypes to manipulate our interpretation of what God instilled in us. Further, few women feel protected and secure with today’s ‘man.’ So many girls I know sought careers- not bc they really wanted them- it’s bc society tells them they have to have one in order to hold worldly ‘value’, or they had to out of necessity from being single/family needs more income, or bc they feel as though they have to ‘be ready’ for their husband to leave them bc of our society excusing that behavior and normalizing it. Men artificially fill the ‘stereotypes’ (maid, restaurants/food delivered, porn, hookups, or even a woman with low self worth that will do everything I mentioned without any commitment or investment from the guy in return). The things that a lot of women do out of love for a spouse, bc of their caring nature, might include some of society’s stereotypes, but for them, it’s an expression of their nurturing love. It isn’t until a man doesn’t have an empathetic ear at home, little things done ‘just bc’, or the tender, yet tough, support of a woman that he sees the unique gifts, not the ‘chore stereotypes.’ You can’t purchase the things that truly matter. If something is a stereotype ‘service/chore’, it’s a bastardized simplification of God’s balance.

I’ve never met a woman that shouts about not needing a man that’s ever actually *had* good men in her life (dad, granddad, brother, uncle...). They usually don’t think they ‘need a man’ bc they’ve never seen the beauty of Gods special gifts & tendencies working in tandem with respect and love. Once you see how it was designed to be, you always see the irreplaceable value of the strengths in one filling the weakness in the other, and vise versa. When the beauty of those gifts arent seen by someone, it’s easy to look on the surface and rail against society’s labels. Those labels were put there and exacerbated so someone who didn’t see the unique gifts at the root in one accord wouldn’t look any deeper. As Christ’s purpose for specific gifts is continually degraded, it makes it a lot easier to attack the top level stereotypes. However, the more those are jumbled, the more it effects the unique gifts God instilled in men & women, making them push them down further and try to ignore them in order to appease the surface level dictators.
when I hear women rail against men and say they’re better than them, all while they’re trying to define their own worth by measuring how well they fulfill ‘mens roles’, Im always shocked that they don’t see the irony.
Worldly behaviors are toxic, not the special gifts God instilled in each gender.

It’s like a ray of the sun telling a wilting flower it’s ‘terrible & not needed’ bc it’s not flourishing & growing where that ray shines. However, the sun ray fails to consider the nutrients in the dirt, and it doesn’t tilt away from a rain cloud so the flower can have water. Meanwhile, there’s a seed in a different patch of dirt, and a different sun ray is using its gifts in tandem with the dirt by not evaporating rain clouds with its ray, so the dirt can do its part to give life to the plant. God designed everything to have special gifts that create something good when they’re used to compliment each other. We have all of the rays of sun screeching that they can ALSO provide the benefits of dirt, they don’t need the dirt to grow that flower! Meanwhile, the dirt is like ‘suuuuure’ and takes its annoyed self into an indoor growing facility with artificial sunlight. The sun ray might get lucky once in a while and have a weed grow through the cement, but it’s not the same as a flower. And the dirt will be able to use the artificial sunlight- but it doesn’t go through seasons, get nutrients from surroundings/bugs, or a break from the light like it did outside during the night. Sure, the flower can grow there, but in an artificial world, the flower is a product of a machine. There’s a reason everything has special purposes. We’re so incredibly spoiled and surrounded by self righteous thought that ppl dare to take the incredible complimentary gifts we possess and demonize them by assigning them a mop or a briefcase, when that’s not what ‘masculinity’ & ‘being a man’ or ‘femininity’ & ‘being a woman’ is actually about.
 
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Robin

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Gender stereotypes are exaggerated distortions of the special internal gifts that God instilled in men and women to balance out a partnership. By design, men usually crave the ability to be a provider & protector, and you can see the hit it takes on them when they aren’t able to fulfill that. On the flip, women are wired better for empathy & being caregivers, and you can see the hit it takes on a women when she doesn’t have a place to channel those gifts.
Somehow, society twisted those into meaning specific things instead seeing a birds eye view. Some men prefer serving ‘self’, whether that means making work their wife & family or being lazy and abandoning their gender wired gifts and burdening ppl in their lives instead. A lot of women are forced into things out of necessity, instead of being able to utilize their special gifts to care for a family. The nuclear family has been shredded and demonized on purpose. They used ‘gender roles’, something society itself ‘assigned’, as a shame pressure point to hijack the beauty of men & women having complimentary strengths & weaknesses. As a society, we’ve allowed worldly stereotypes to manipulate our interpretation of what God instilled in us. Further, few women feel protected and secure with today’s ‘man’, so many girls I know sought careers not bc they really wanted them, but bc society tells them they have to in order to hold worldly ‘value’, or out of necessity from being single/family needs more income, or bc they have to ‘be ready’ for their husband to leave them bc of our society excuses them for doing so. Men artificially fill the balance and things a lot of women do out of love for a spouse, bc of their caring nature, with services that ‘fill’ the ‘stereotypes’ society applies to women. It isn’t until a man doesn’t have an empathetic ear at home, little things done ‘just bc’, or the tender, yet tough, support of a woman that he sees the gifts, not the ‘chore stereotypes.’
I’ve never met a woman that shouts about not needing a man that’s ever actually *had* good men in her life (dad, granddad, brother, uncle...). They usually don’t think they ‘need a man’ bc they’ve never seen the beauty of Gods special gifts & tendencies working in tandem with respect and love. Once you see how it was designed to be, you always see the irreplaceable value of the strengths in one filling the weakness in the other, and vise versa. When the beauty of those gifts arent seen by someone, it’s easy to look on the surface and rail against society’ labels. Those labels were put there and exacerbated so someone who didn’t see the unique gifts at the root in one accord wouldn’t look any deeper. As Christs purpose for specific gifts is continually degraded, it makes it a lot easier to attack the top level stereotypes. However, the more those are jumbled, the more it effects the unique gifts God instilled in men & women, making them push them down further and try to ignore them in order to appease the surface level dictators.
when I hear women rail against men and say they’re better than them, yet all the while trying to define their own worth by measuring how well they fulfill ‘mens roles’, Im always shocked that they don’t see the irony.
Worldly behaviors are toxic, not the special gifts God instilled in each gender.
While I agree with a lot of what you said, I don't think the gender stereotypes @Dalit was referring to are the sort you're thinking of . . . The Tweets talk about arbitrary ones like fixing stuff up around the house. Things like that aren't the result of some God-given internal gift . . . They're something anyone can do out of necessity/practical convenience.
 

Swiftturtle

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While I agree with a lot of what you said, I don't think the gender stereotypes @Dalit was referring to are the sort you're thinking of . . . The Tweets talk about arbitrary ones like fixing stuff up around the house. Things like that aren't the result of some God-given internal gift . . . They're something anyone can do out of necessity/practical convenience.
correct, anyone ‘can’ do those. I guess my POV is bc I saw that exact situation play out in two different ways, and they did bc of what was at the root. So, in instance #1: my sibling and their spouse want to hang Christmas lights. The guy knows the girl is fully able to, and she’s fine with doing it. However, he wants to hang them bc he knows it’ll be dirty in some parts, and there’s a ladder involved. His feeling of being her protector doesn’t hang them to put her in her place, he hangs them bc he wants to protect her from possible grubby spots, and balancing on a ladder..he’d rather be uncomfortable and at a dangerous height than have her be bc he wants to protect her. It was done out of love to protect her, not one of showmanship. In return, she went and made him a coffee in case he was cold and thirsty when he was finished, bc she loves him and wants to take care of him...each were leaning into the way they were wired. Both could do what the other did, but the way they were wired to place different things at different levels of importance ended up affecting the situation. On the flip, my friends husband ‘knew’ my friend was capable of hanging lights, and didn’t even attempt to help- he laid down. There were parts she couldn’t reach that my male family member came and did for her. Afterwards, she went and made dinner while helping the kids w/their hw. She could’ve thrown a fit and said ‘dinner isn’t my gender role responsibility if hanging lights wasn’t yours’, but she enjoys making dinner for her family bc she’s caring & nurturing. Her husband didn’t view the light hanging w/the ‘you’re capable, but I want to protect you’ that my sibling did bc he doesn’t believe in gender roles. Funny thing tho, he suddenly did when he learned a male family member helped her where she couldn’t reach- he was embarrassed and got upset. It’s bc it wasn’t about ‘crushing role stereotypes’, it really went to the root of him being selfish and not working in tandem, plus being embarrassed bc someone else did what he lacked the selflessness to do.

women and men can handle a lot of the same ‘tasks’, but we’re emotionally wired to place higher importance/value on different things, which effects both the way we approach the same task, & the emotional effects some tasks have.

I see men brush off a lot of stuff that most women take deeply to heart. Saying we can do the same tasks as men doesn’t mean they’re worthless/pointless/obsolete...it means that on a surface level, in many cases we have just as much ability. They always skip the inner layer though, how some things effect us mentally & emotionally.

(Maybe I’m alone in this opinion, but I like being the nurturer and having a man that leans into the protector gift. I can pretty much take care of myself, but I like not having to expend energy & concern if someone loves me enough to enjoy being the protector. When I feel safe, that lets me lean into what I love- being the nurturer. Also, I see zero point in dating a man that doesn’t embody & embrace those gifts. Plus, just bc I prefer leaning into what I’m wired for doesn’t mean it aligns with societies stereotypes. i.e. My ex got realllly good at dishes & never complained. And I was good with little wall hanging projects, which he was more than happy about. If the core gifts we’re wired with are done in concert out of love, the ‘labels’ of ‘that’s a man’s job’...‘that’s a woman's job’ disappear in favor of complimenting each other’s strengths and being strong when your partner isn’t.
 
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Robin

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correct, anyone ‘can’ do those. I guess my POV is bc I saw that exact situation play out in two different ways, and they did bc of what was at the root. So, in instance #1: my sibling and their spouse want to hang Christmas lights. The guy knows the girl is fully able to, and she’s fine with doing it. However, he wants to hang them bc he knows it’ll be dirty in some parts, and there’s a ladder involved. His feeling of being her protector doesn’t hang them to put her in her place, he hangs them bc he wants to protect her from possible grubby spots, and balancing on a ladder..he’d rather be uncomfortable and at a dangerous height than have her be bc he wants to protect her. It was done out of love to protect her, not one of showmanship. In return, she went and made him a coffee in case he was cold and thirsty when he was finished, bc she loves him and wants to take care of him...each were leaning into the way they were wired. Both could do what the other did, but the way they were wired to place different things at different levels of importance ended up affecting the situation. On the flip, my friends husband ‘knew’ my friend was capable of hanging lights, and didn’t even attempt to help- he laid down. There were parts she couldn’t reach that my male family member came and did for her. Afterwards, she went and made dinner while helping the kids w/their hw. She could’ve thrown a fit and said ‘dinner isn’t my gender role responsibility if hanging lights wasn’t yours’, but she enjoys making dinner for her family bc she’s caring & nurturing. Her husband didn’t view the light hanging w/the ‘you’re capable, but I want to protect you’ that my sibling did bc he doesn’t believe in gender roles. Funny thing tho, he suddenly did when he learned a male family member helped her where she couldn’t reach- he was embarrassed and got upset. It’s bc it wasn’t about ‘crushing role stereotypes’, it really went to the root of him being selfish and not working in tandem, plus being embarrassed bc someone else did what he lacked the selflessness to do.

women and men can handle a lot of the same ‘tasks’, but we’re emotionally wired to place higher importance/value on different things, which effects the way we approach the same task
True enough . . . But that implies that gender roles only work that way relative to each other. Valuing tasks differently then depends more on whether or not someone of the opposite sex is present right? I'm just saying that they are mostly arbitrary because this configuration only really works in a relationship. If there is no man or woman around to do whatever tasks ordinarily appeal to their respective "natures" then you have to do it yourself. So its not about "crushing gender roles" or proving capability - it literally is just a case of being practical.
 

Swiftturtle

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True enough . . . But that implies that gender roles only work that way relative to each other. Valuing tasks differently then depends more on whether or not someone of the opposite sex is present right? I'm just saying that they are mostly arbitrary because this configuration only really works in a relationship. If there is no man or woman around to do whatever tasks ordinarily appeal to their respective "natures" then you have to do it yourself. So its not about "crushing gender roles" or proving capability - it literally is just a case of being practical.
Interesting point, for sure. I’ll say that personally, during times of being single, I either 1. Begrudgingly do it, loathing the brokenness in the world & radical feminists the entire time
2. Still find a guy to do it. I was perfectly capable of putting a bed frame together, but when a guy that I liked/liked me offered to do it, I for suuuuuure let him
 

Robin

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Interesting point, for sure. I’ll say that personally, during times of being single, I either 1. Begrudgingly do it, loathing the brokenness in the world & radical feminists the entire time
2. Still find a guy to do it. I was perfectly capable of putting a bed frame together, but when a guy that I liked/liked me offered to do it, I for suuuuuure let him
Lol, I guess my perspective, ironically enough, comes mostly from my dad. Growing up, I was the child that enjoyed spending time with him when he did typical "manly" things around the house -fixing the car, DIY projects, setting up furniture etc. My brother, not so much. So he started teaching me how to do those things so I'd never have to depend on a man to do it for me. It was (and still is) one of my favourite ways of bonding with him and I actually really enjoy getting my hands dirty. He's a pretty conservative and traditional man but he taught me that it was important to be able to be independent. I don't view it as part of the "brokenness of the world" or a result of feminism that I had to learn to be able to do those things and I still love traditionally feminine tasks as well. I just think it's really useful skill to have and if I did happen to get married one day, I'd much prefer helping my partner side by side than letting him do it for me, but that's really all just preferential. :)
 

Wigi

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Gender stereotypes are exaggerated distortions of the special internal gifts that God instilled in men and women to balance out a partnership. By design, men usually crave the ability to be a provider & protector, and you can see the hit it takes on them when they aren’t able to fulfill that. On the flip, women are wired better for empathy & being caregivers, and you can see the hit it takes on a woman when she doesn’t have a place to channel those gifts.
Somehow, society twisted those into meaning specific things instead of seeing a birds eye view. Some men prefer serving ‘self’, whether that means making work their ‘wife & family,’ or being lazy and abandoning their gender wired gifts and burdening ppl in their lives instead. A lot of women are forced into things out of necessity, instead of being able to utilize their special gifts to care for a family. The nuclear family has been shredded and demonized on purpose. They used ‘gender roles’, something society itself ‘assigned’, as a shame pressure point to hijack the beauty of men & women having complimentary strengths & weaknesses. As a society, we’ve allowed worldly stereotypes to manipulate our interpretation of what God instilled in us. Further, few women feel protected and secure with today’s ‘man.’ So many girls I know sought careers- not bc they really wanted them- it’s bc society tells them they have to have one in order to hold worldly ‘value’, or they had to out of necessity from being single/family needs more income, or bc they feel as though they have to ‘be ready’ for their husband to leave them bc of our society excusing that behavior and normalizing it. Men artificially fill the ‘stereotypes’ (maid, restaurants/food delivered, porn, hookups, or even a woman with low self worth that will do everything I mentioned without any commitment or investment from the guy in return). The things that a lot of women do out of love for a spouse, bc of their caring nature, might include some of society’s stereotypes, but for them, it’s an expression of their nurturing love. It isn’t until a man doesn’t have an empathetic ear at home, little things done ‘just bc’, or the tender, yet tough, support of a woman that he sees the unique gifts, not the ‘chore stereotypes.’ You can’t purchase the things that truly matter. If something is a stereotype ‘service/chore’, it’s a bastardized simplification of God’s balance.

I’ve never met a woman that shouts about not needing a man that’s ever actually *had* good men in her life (dad, granddad, brother, uncle...). They usually don’t think they ‘need a man’ bc they’ve never seen the beauty of Gods special gifts & tendencies working in tandem with respect and love. Once you see how it was designed to be, you always see the irreplaceable value of the strengths in one filling the weakness in the other, and vise versa. When the beauty of those gifts arent seen by someone, it’s easy to look on the surface and rail against society’s labels. Those labels were put there and exacerbated so someone who didn’t see the unique gifts at the root in one accord wouldn’t look any deeper. As Christ’s purpose for specific gifts is continually degraded, it makes it a lot easier to attack the top level stereotypes. However, the more those are jumbled, the more it effects the unique gifts God instilled in men & women, making them push them down further and try to ignore them in order to appease the surface level dictators.
when I hear women rail against men and say they’re better than them, all while they’re trying to define their own worth by measuring how well they fulfill ‘mens roles’, Im always shocked that they don’t see the irony.
Worldly behaviors are toxic, not the special gifts God instilled in each gender.

It’s like a ray of the sun telling a wilting flower it’s ‘terrible & not needed’ bc it’s not flourishing & growing where that ray shines. However, the sun ray fails to consider the nutrients in the dirt, and it doesn’t tilt away from a rain cloud so the flower can have water. Meanwhile, there’s a seed in a different patch of dirt, and a different sun ray is using its gifts in tandem with the dirt by not evaporating rain clouds with its ray, so the dirt can do its part to give life to the plant. God designed everything to have special gifts that create something good when they’re used to compliment each other. We have all of the rays of sun screeching that they can ALSO provide the benefits of dirt, they don’t need the dirt to grow that flower! Meanwhile, the dirt is like ‘suuuuure’ and takes its annoyed self into an indoor growing facility with artificial sunlight. The sun ray might get lucky once in a while and have a weed grow through the cement, but it’s not the same as a flower. And the dirt will be able to use the artificial sunlight- but it doesn’t go through seasons, get nutrients from surroundings/bugs, or a break from the light like it did outside during the night. Sure, the flower can grow there, but in an artificial world, the flower is a product of a machine. There’s a reason everything has special purposes. We’re so incredibly spoiled and surrounded by self righteous thought that ppl dare to take the incredible complimentary gifts we possess and demonize them by assigning them a mop or a briefcase, when that’s not what ‘masculinity’ & ‘being a man’ or ‘femininity’ & ‘being a woman’ is actually about.
So you link images of these baseless irrational tweets without saying your own opinion, and you're asking us what we think?

I think that Twitter posts are usually a bunch of group think, meme based nonsensical statements. Not backed by anything but the intent of emotionally engaging the reader (read: provoke).

The gender roles debate is pointless. Women are usually interested in socially based careers and men are usually interested in careers that deal with "things", and not people. This is why you see very few engineer women but a lot of woman nurses. And the opposite for men. Even though females are as good, if not better than men in math, during high school anyway, they choose these types of careers. It's not a question of ability but a question of biologically influenced interests.

So, it doesn't matter that women can become astronauts now, since statistically they will choose careers that involve social interaction more than interaction with things and machines. Women have never been "less" than men, and men will never be "obsolete" simply because it is not about skills, but interest.
Thanks a lot I needed to read this.

That aside, I don't have anything to say about this OP besides that Twitter is a meme website with people using inflammatory words for 'retweets'.
For me, most of what I could read out there do not deserve to be taken seriously.
 

ishigo

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If women don't think about becoming astronauts that's probably bc they don't think of it as an option. Representation also plays a big part in people being able to project themselves. There aren't many representations of female astronauts.
I've made a thread abt gender essentialism and the conclusion was: it's hard to really assess to what degree gender is a social construct and how much of it is biology.

But if they lasted that long and were largely accepeted that's bc they were pushed by the dominant group -men.
And it wasn't just about attributing roles to each sexes but also brainwashing women into thinking they were weaker, less capable,etc. Hatred for women is smthg that's worth pondering though. Why did men felt the need to control and belittle the feminine this much to begin with?

In the 50s if a man didn't want his wife to drive bc it was a threat to his masculinity he would have society's approval. In this day and age he would be called sexist.

Now that women have gained more independance it becomes impossible for men to say "you're incapable of doing that". Unless of course they're chauvinist.

That's why a lot of men wouldn't risk holdng the door for a woman on a date bc it would imply she cannot do it herself.
 
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Todd

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What I learned from this thread....

1. I am an extremely above average male
2. Lisa will always be....well, Lisa
3. I must be sexist, since I never ride as a passenger in a car with my wife. (I suppose I could prove I'm not sexist by putting my wife's makeup on her face while she is driving.)
4. I take risks with doors everyday.
 

Lisa

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That's why a lot of men wouldn't risk holdng the door for a woman on a date bc it would imply she cannot do it herself.
I like when men hold the door open for me..I don’t see what the problem is in that...its not that they think a woman can’t open the door for themselves..its a kind and chivalrous gesture. I always thank men who hold the door for me.

I take risks with doors everyday.
Lol!
 
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Every single time, threads like these include without failure the paradox of "where have all the good men gone" along the simultaneous cries of "chivalry is sexist" coming from the same source.
 

Helioform

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You will have to summarize that article because it is asking me to subscribe to read it. I could only take a quick glimpse and saw "smaller weight" as an argument...which I think isn't a very strong point.


I've made a thread abt gender essentialism and the conclusion was: it's hard to really assess to what degree gender is a social construct and how much of it is biology.
Gender, after birth, is very largely a biological thing. You cannot get totally away from your DNA, or your genitals simply because you want to. And you cannot separate the mind from the body, which is what some of those post-modern revisionists like to do to support their argument.




But if they lasted that long and were largely accepeted that's bc they were pushed by the dominant group -men.
And it wasn't just about attributing roles to each sexes but also brainwashing women into thinking they were weaker, less capable,etc. Hatred for women is smthg that's worth pondering though. Why did men felt the need to control and belittle the feminine this much to begin with?
This is the main argument, that because of social pressure women were "forced" into these roles. But that is not the case since at least the 60s with the feminist movement. So why do women continue to choose these careers, which are in the vast majority based on social interaction?
Why is there not an equal percentage of women and men in certain fields of work? Simply because gender is at the root of what constitutes a human being. The psyche is like a stack of different elements, and gender is at the base of it. Eastern religions call it the root chakra.

Women, for the most part need the reaction of others to define themselves. While men usually define themselves through what they create. This is easily understandable if you look at what differentiates a man from a woman, when you look at the body. But note that nobody is 100% male or 100% female when it comes to the psyche, its more 60/40 because gender is not the only element that makes up our minds, but it is the most influential one since, like for a tree, it is the root.

So if you want to manipulate a woman, isolate her from her social network. If you want to manipulate a man, constrain his creativity. This is what the public school system does, it mostly removes independant thought and replaces it with social validation. And this is one reason why males are falling behind in that domain. College is mostly a female dominated area. Note also that I am not bashing the university system, since I went there myself and mostly liked what I have learned. But society now relies on this flawed system to produce people who have very few independant creative impulses, and who have now become workers instead of thinkers.

Tldr; women are a driving force in society, while men are the driving force behind free enterprise. Both need each other and this is why we need social programs to help free enterprise, and vice versa.
 
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ishigo

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Gender, after birth, is very largely a biological thing. You cannot get totally away from your DNA, or your genitals simply because you want to. And you cannot separate the mind from the body, which is what some of those post-modern revisionists like to do to support their argument.
I think it's important to distinguish between biological sex - the anatomy of an individual's reproductive system.
and gender which can refer to either social roles based on the sex of the person or personal identification of one's own gender based on an internal awareness.

This is the main argument, that because of social pressure women were "forced" into these roles. But that is not the case since at least the 60s with the feminist movement.
Feminism existed since the 60s but we're talking abt thousands of years of systemic oppression and subjugation of women tha'ts still happening today. It's not gonna disappear tomorrow.

So why do women continue to choose these careers, which are in the vast majority based on social interaction?
Why is there not an equal percentage of women and men in certain fields of work? Simply because gender is at the root of what constitutes a human being. The psyche is like a stack of different elements, and gender is at the base of it. Eastern religions call it the root chakra.
I already said it: lack of representation. Also stigma, internalized gender norms. Women who work in an all-male field generally face harassement on a daily basis, so it's just not a safe working environment. Stereotypes are still going strong.

So if you want to manipulate a woman, isolate her from her social network. If you want to manipulate a man, constrain his creativity. This is what the public school system does, it mostly removes independant thought and replaces it with social validation. And this is one reason why males are falling behind in that domain. College is mostly a female dominated area.
I believe the school system is broken to begin with. But here is what an english teacher has to say (from the guardian):
“There’s also this anti-school mindset fuelled by stereotypical masculinity – like the stereotype that schoolwork is something girls naturally do best,” he says.

"The key to changing attitudes in schools, Pinkett believes, is for teachers to admit they are as prone to the same biases as everyone else. I don’t think it’s about watering it down: it’s about having high expectations for boys as well as for girls.”
 
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Swiftturtle

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If women don't think about becoming astronauts that's probably bc they don't think of it as an option. Representation also plays a big part in people being able to project themselves. There aren't many representations of female astronauts.
I've made a thread abt gender essentialism and the conclusion was: it's hard to really assess to what degree gender is a social construct and how much of it is biology.

But if they lasted that long and were largely accepeted that's bc they were pushed by the dominant group -men.
And it wasn't just about attributing roles to each sexes but also brainwashing women into thinking they were weaker, less capable,etc. Hatred for women is smthg that's worth pondering though. Why did men felt the need to control and belittle the feminine this much to begin with?

In the 50s if a man didn't want his wife to drive bc it was a threat to his masculinity he would have society's approval. In this day and age he would be called sexist.

Now that women have gained more independance it becomes impossible for men to say "you're incapable of doing that". Unless of course they're chauvinist.

That's why a lot of men wouldn't risk holdng the door for a woman on a date bc it would imply she cannot do it herself.
P
Lol, I guess my perspective, ironically enough, comes mostly from my dad. Growing up, I was the child that enjoyed spending time with him when he did typical "manly" things around the house -fixing the car, DIY projects, setting up furniture etc. My brother, not so much. So he started teaching me how to do those things so I'd never have to depend on a man to do it for me. It was (and still is) one of my favourite ways of bonding with him and I actually really enjoy getting my hands dirty. He's a pretty conservative and traditional man but he taught me that it was important to be able to be independent. I don't view it as part of the "brokenness of the world" or a result of feminism that I had to learn to be able to do those things and I still love traditionally feminine tasks as well. I just think it's really useful skill to have and if I did happen to get married one day, I'd much prefer helping my partner side by side than letting him do it for me, but that's really all just preferential. :)
I WISH I knew how to work on cars, etc.! My dad never said I couldn’t do something, regardless of the ‘stereotype’ association. He’s always supported me in w/e I wanted to do. I didn’t dive into a lot of that other stuff bc I enjoy just really enjoy taking care of people. I’m annoyed that 3rd wave radical feminists demean stay at home moms.

you know how it’s always the ppl that say “I HATE drama!” That are the most dramatic? I feel that way sometimes about the “women supporting women” bc women shout it- but that’s rarely ever the case. On the flip, there’s definitely some men who are terrible to women- no question! But a problem that’s rarely discussed is that even if 4/5 women are towing the professional line and not putting up with harassment, there’s always one that’s fine with using sex, and they get perks bc of it. Until ALL women stop that, it will always be a factor. That’s why when ppl scream about men, I always wonder why they don’t point that towards the participating women as well.

just look at harvey Weinstein- tons of other actresses were also casting couched...but some thought nothing of it if it meant fame.
And they ALL knew, and never said anything, meaning they valued their career more than the countless women that were victims bc of their silence. That’s why men will never be obsolete. Some women will always use other women as step ladders, setting back everything.
 

ishigo

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you know how it’s always the ppl that say “I HATE drama!” That are the most dramatic? I feel that way sometimes about the “women supporting women” bc women shout it- but that’s rarely ever the case. On the flip, there’s definitely some men who are terrible to women- no question! But a problem that’s rarely discussed is that even if 4/5 women are towing the professional line and not putting up with harassment, there’s always one that’s fine with using sex, and they get perks bc of it. Until ALL women stop that, it will always be a factor. That’s why when ppl scream about men, I always wonder why they don’t point that towards the participating women as well.

just look at harvey Weinstein- tons of other actresses were also casting couched...but some thought nothing of it if it meant fame.
And they ALL knew, and never said anything, meaning they valued their career more than the countless women that were victims bc of their silence. That’s why men will never be obsolete. Some women will always use other women as step ladders, setting back everything.
But you forget a major element that is the fear in Hollywood.
Not all the women spoke up about the abuse before metoo began but some did, but they weren't taken seriously because of r*pe culture. Because if you're a woman who come forward can be subjected to not only being blackmailed and losing your job but also even more harassement, ridicule, etc.

Men also knew, but they just shrug it off because it doesn't affect them personally. There is an actress that spoke up recently about being assaulted in a meeting. There were tons of men who were twice her size that could have intervened. They didn't. They just looked away because they didn't want to lose their job.

So the problem is structural in Hollywood and in other fields as well. There aren't that many women behind the scenes in positions of power either. You can't reduce it to just women not supporting each other.

Women as a group represent 52% of the population so of course we're not all gonna share the same views and the same ideologies. Not every woman calls herself a feminist. Some women only think about their own interest, but that's only beneficial in the short term, because they'll eventually hit a wall at some point.
"Some women use women as step ladder" that's true, but women who claim that feminism is not valid or not necessary anymore in the 21st century bc they want to live in their fantasy world or want male validation are just as much an hindrance to women's liberation. Which I've seen some posters say on this forum.
 
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ishigo

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Men also knew, but they didn't say or do anything because it's not their problem. There is an actress that spoke up recently about being assaulted in a meeting. There were tons of men who were twice her size that could have intervened. They didn't. They just looked away because they didn't want to lose their job.
And regarding that point, I want to add that:
Most men wouldn't lift a finger if they were to witness a girl being harassed on her way home, they wouldn't check their bros when they whistle at teenagers from their cars. They would gladly join in when their friends make salacious or misogynistic jokes at a bartender who's clearly uncomfortable. I have yet to see a man who holds his male counterparts accountable for their bullshit.
 
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Todd

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I have yet to see a man who holds his male counterparts accountable for their bullshit.
Maybe you are looking in the wrong places. For one, a man who has the character to speak up about the situations you are speaking of, probably would not be as inclined to "hang out" with the male counterparts who are committing these acts you speak of. Two, I find it somewhat ironic that you are speaking about these issues, when your avatar picture is from a movie that only promotes and glorifies the mistreatment of women that you are speaking about.
 
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