Todd
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Have Christians made an idol out of the scriptures?
- Thread starter Todd
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Agreed but I wouldn’t necessarily say the church. God didn’t deal in churches. God dwelled in His temple, and it was the job of the priest/ Levites to hand down the word. Those of a certain blood line anointed by TMHG....not these priest, preachers, popes and ministers we know today btw.
Malachi 2:5 “ My covenant with Him (“Levi” Malachi 2:1-4) was one of life and peace, which I gave to him along with fear. He feared me yes, he stood in awe of my name 6 The Law of truth was in his mouth ( coughs Isaiah 53) and no unrighteousness was found on his lips. He walked with me in peace and uprightness and he turned many back from error. For the lips of a priest should safeguard knowledge and people should seek the law from his mouth because he is the messenger of God.”
So yes it’s notated on numerous occasions that the Levitical priest aka Israel failed the children/servants of The Most High God.
Karlysymon
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I think the only way to answer this question is to examine how Christ (the Word of God) treated the scriptures (word of God)....you only have to think of how many times He brought them up. During His ministry His intimate
acquaintance with the
Scriptures testifies to His
diligence in their study. (Luke 24:25-27 is a great starting point). Where did Christ ever make a distinction in the OT of what was and wasn't God's word? I certainly don't see Him being all picky, all the while anoited with the Holy Spirit (at His baptism), who He left to us.
Can God lead a person without scriptures? Yes, He can. But if He has so designed your circumstances that you can easily access Holy Writ, then you have no grounds for excuses. The Psalmist wrote:
Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light
unto my path.
If scriptures weren't a neccesity, i don't think God would make the effort to preserve them (keeping in mind that He knows, come D-Day, people will have a ready-made excuse along the lines of...."i couldn't keep Your requirements because the text was corrupted so i didn't know what was or wasn't an interpolation".)
acquaintance with the
Scriptures testifies to His
diligence in their study. (Luke 24:25-27 is a great starting point). Where did Christ ever make a distinction in the OT of what was and wasn't God's word? I certainly don't see Him being all picky, all the while anoited with the Holy Spirit (at His baptism), who He left to us.
Can God lead a person without scriptures? Yes, He can. But if He has so designed your circumstances that you can easily access Holy Writ, then you have no grounds for excuses. The Psalmist wrote:
Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light
unto my path.
If scriptures weren't a neccesity, i don't think God would make the effort to preserve them (keeping in mind that He knows, come D-Day, people will have a ready-made excuse along the lines of...."i couldn't keep Your requirements because the text was corrupted so i didn't know what was or wasn't an interpolation".)
Todd
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Yes but notice the scripture you quoted says "Thy word is a lamp" not "the scriptures". There are other forms of God's word then just what is written in the scriptures. For even Paul said I desire that all of you prophecy. Surely he didn't believe that everyone could have a hand in writing scripture?
Jesus said man can not live by bread alone but by every word that proceedeth ouf the mouth of God. Rhema is the greek word in this scripture not graphe. Jesus did not say man lives by the scriptures.
No one has chosen to comment on the difference between Rhema, Logos and Graphe yet. I am hoping the conversation can move in that direction and maybe shed some new light on the topic. But it is late and I am ready for bed. Maybe tomorrow.
Karlysymon
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But not everyone will be a prophet. Let's be honest, God isn't going to speak His word directly to everyone; because there are the different levels of faith. But also the lingering issue of trying to distinguish if that really is God speaking to you. We have so many people telling us 'God has spoken to me' or should entities show up claiming to have abrogated the Moral Law, the scriptures are the only test we have to prove or disprove those claims. The claims of a disembodied voice are to be tested with the scriptures. How else is it to be done? Feelings are deceptive.
Christ remains our example. He became aquainted with them at a young age and continued to lift them, most especially, in His ministry. He, of all people, wouldn't have wasted time with that since God would speak directly to Him (baptism, transfiguration).
Besides, He would have left us that instruction "listen only to God's voice (sound)". But there's nothing to that effect nor do Peter and John say anything to that effect.
Daciple
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I will start with these 2 questions and proceed from there as to my take on your Thread and inherently the real reason why you have taken the stance you have.
I am putting my Trust in God, of which God says:
John 10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
So in this verse Jesus, the Word of God states that He aka the Word of God came unto the writer of the Scripture He is quoting and then immediately EQUATES the Word of God with the Scripture and says that it can NOT be broken. Lets go ahead and also jump right into this whole Logos Graphe thing what are the words used in this verse?
3056 [e] logos λόγος word and 1124 [e] graphē γραφή Scripture
So Jesus Himself makes this declaration that goes right to the heart of the matter, The Logos is directly equated to the Graphe and that neither can be broken, which means that they are the Divine Words of God that are perfectly and 100% true. See I actually believe this 100%, I believe what Jesus is saying, I believe that God has given us His Word and they are perfect and 100% true.
I mean in all honesty I could stop right here, in 1 verse Jesus address your entire ideology and says well the Logos is the Graphe and its perfect. But lets see how Jesus treats the Graphe?
Matthew 21:42
Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
Matthew 22:29
Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.
Matthew 26:54-56
54 But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?
55 In that same hour said Jesus to the multitudes, Are ye come out as against a thief with swords and staves for to take me? I sat daily with you teaching in the temple, and ye laid no hold on me.
56 But all this was done, that the scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled. Then all the disciples forsook him, and fled.
Mark 15:28
And the scripture was fulfilled, which saith, And he was numbered with the transgressors.
Luke 4:17-21
17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,
18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.
21 And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.
Luke 24:25-27
25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
Luke 24:44-45
44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
John 2:22
When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.
John 7:38
He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
John 7:42
Hath not the scripture said, That Christ cometh of the seed of David, and out of the town of Bethlehem, where David was?
John 13:18
I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.
John 17:12
While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
John 19:28
After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst.
It is very obvious that Jesus treats the Graphe as being 100% Divine, so much so He continually says that He is fulfilling them, making that which is in the Word of God 100% reliable without any doubts. So why do you or anyone else here treat it any differently? Why are any of you making distinctions when Jesus Himself never once did?
I read the comments that Thus Saith The Lord, well how often did Jesus fulfill Scripture that didnt go Thus Saith The Lord? Dozen and Dozen of times here one I found in less than 2 min of searching, literally the 2nd Scripture I looked up:
John 19:28
After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst.
Ps 69:21 They gave me also gall for my meat; and in my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink.
Its not Thus Saith The Lord, yet Jesus tells us exactly what it is:
Mark 12:36 For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The Lord said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
David along with every other author of the Entire Bible Old and New were under inspiration of the Holy Ghost when they penned the words they penned. And that is why this is Scripture aka Holy Ghost and Divine:
2 Tim 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
How can one be perfect and thoroughly furnished if they are reading and studying for reproof correction and instruction from an inherently flawed and imperfect set of Scriptures? God gave us the Scriptures for a reason, He has revealed Himself by them, He has shown Himself by them, He has preserved them and His message by them. Now what do they declare?
Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Faith comes by hearing the Word of God, by hearing the Logos, and what exactly does he mean by this, the Word of God?
Rom 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
Deu 30:14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.
The Scriptures is what he is speaking of, that it is the Word of God, and this is the same position Jesus holds the Scriptures in as we have seen above, 100% Divine, 100% Perfect!!!
So do I put my Faith in the Scriptures or the one that inspired the Scriptures? I put my Faith in the fact that God inspired the Scriptures, therefore when I read study and believe in what they say I am inherently building and putting all my Faith in Him!! I can not imagine viewing the Scriptures any other way, what purpose is there to have a flawed and imperfect Scripture to teach me about a Perfect and Unflawed God? Everything I would read would ALWAYS be in confusion and doubt, well did God REALLY say this, did He not? Do I really have to believe THIS or should I just do what I feel like doing? Do I really HAVE to do this or can I do something else? Is this REALLY how I am saved or is it some other way? Is Jesus REALLY who He says in these writings or is this another flaw? Was Peter REALLY a Disciple or is this made up? Did John REALLY have a vision or is this not True?
If I cant accept the Scriptures are Truthful then whom do I turn to in order to figure out which are True and which are False? Do you want to know how many Cults are built on this exact thing? Id say pretty much all of them. And why do all Cults share this common theme? Because there were people that didnt want to follow what Scripture said so they began to find ways in their heart to reject the parts they didnt like and then positioned themselves in authority over Scripture.
Look at what we see here, those who are rejecting that Scripture is Divine and Perfect are now positioning themselves to be superior to them and are trying to show others what parts are False and what parts are True by their own personal made up Authority. You are saying this part or these letters arent True and then try and teach others which are True. There is absolutely no real guidance to be had apart from YOU telling us what is or what isnt Divine and therefore what we MUST accept as Authoritative in our lives. You are literally making yourself the Authority instead of the Word of God and more over making yourself Authority over the One whom sent the Scriptures...
If you are calling yourself a Christian and then saying the Word of God isnt the Word of God or Divinely Inspired you are placing yourself in Authority over God and Christ, of course you wont accept that because you want to be able to accept and reject Scripture as you wish, but I truly believe that is what you are doing. I personally wouldnt want to be seen as placing myself above God and what He is sent as Scripture...
Daciple
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Now lets address the real issue here because I in no way believe the inspiration of this Thread really comes down to this:
In that thread it is being brought up that Doctrine doesnt really matter, that Salvation isnt based on Doctrine, however is that really what the Bible teaches or is that someones desire because they personally reject the Bible and certain Doctrine? The Bible itself makes it very clear concerning Doctrine:
Deuteronomy 32:2
My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small rain upon the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass:
Job 11:4
For thou hast said, My doctrine is pure, and I am clean in thine eyes.
Matthew 7:28
And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine:
Matthew 15:9
But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Matthew 16:12
Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.
Mark 1:22
And they were astonished at his doctrine: for he taught them as one that had authority, and not as the scribes.
Mark 4:2
And he taught them many things by parables, and said unto them in his doctrine,
Mark 12:38
And he said unto them in his doctrine, Beware of the scribes, which love to go in long clothing, and love salutations in the marketplaces,
John 7:16
Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
John 7:17
If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.
So we see that clearly Jesus taught Doctrine and He clearly warned against False Doctrine, the Doctrine of His is sent from the Father. Doctrine is clearly essential to understanding God, to understanding and accepting Salvation. What else does the Bible say concerning Doctrine?
Acts 2:42
And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.
Acts 5:28
Saying, Did not we straitly command you that ye should not teach in this name? and, behold, ye have filled Jerusalem with your doctrine, and intend to bring this man's blood upon us.
We can see that the Apostles set down Doctrine and if we read these chapters fully the Gospel is clearly a huge portion of these Doctrine!!
Just as Jesus warned to watch for people with False Doctrine so too does the other Scriptures! Should we heed these words or are we going to invent reasons to reject them and say well Doctrine doesnt really matter?
Romans 16:17
Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
Ephesians 4:14
That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
1 Timothy 4:1
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2 Timothy 4:3
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
2 John 1:9
Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
2 John 1:10
If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
Revelation 2:14
But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.
Revelation 2:15
So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes, which thing I hate.
Jesus Himself condemns people for the Doctrine they hold, even saying He hates certain Doctrines. John says there are certain Doctrines one must abide by or they DO NOT have Christ. He like Paul tells us that if someone comes NOT bringing these correct Doctrine to neither receive them into their house nor wish them Godspeed! We see that there are Doctrine of Devils, Doctrine of men who are here to deceive, Doctrine that come from false teacher for those who have itchy ears, as well as Doctrine that lead to Damnation.
There is no doubt about it Doctrine is essential to our Salvation and to understanding Christ and God. There is no doubt about it that there are liars who are and have come that teach FALSE Doctrine, and we are to MARK them and avoid them. What I have seen in my years as a Christian it is usually those who are teaching these Damnable and False Doctrines that are also very adamant about trying to cast a negative light on the Word of God itself. If they can convince others that the Word of God isnt really the Word of God then they can teach their False and Damnable Doctrines much easier as anytime it is shown they ought to corrected well they can say, thats not really applicable.
There are a range of Doctrine, some of which are Salvation Dependent, and some that are not. Some that will cast others into Hell if they accept them, and others that wont. It isnt the ones that arent Salvation Dependent that truly cause False Teachers to attack the Word of God itself. I havent seen many people teach this or that form of Eschatology (a non salvation doctrine) that eventually attack the Word of God to uphold or dismiss their positions, same with many other non salvation dependent doctrines (Laying on of Hands, Speaking in Tongues, Sabbath ect).
However with Doctrines that concern Salvation it is almost assured that once that False Teacher comes to speak and others begin to reject their False Teachings it is not long before they begin to call into question the Word of God itself. From my time in debating others and studying these things the quickest Doctrines I see that lead to immediate rejection of the Word of God are, Christs Divinity, the Trinity, Paul as an Apostle or some other version of rejection of Paul, Universal Salvation, Jesus Father not being the God of Israel, and the many forms of Works Based Salvation. It is almost 100% guaranteed if someone comes around teaching these things, they are going to say the Bible isnt the Word of God.
And it is no wonder they take that position, because it is absolutely necessary to do so to uphold the Doctrines that are set against these Salvation Dependent Doctrines.
So this is why I believe this Thread is here, has nothing to with seeking God and everything to do with being able to justify to themselves why they can hold these Damnable Doctrines and not have others say anything against them...
If you want to discuss Salvation Dependent Doctrines vs Non Salvation Dependent Doctrines I am happy to have that conversation but I will leave that for another post...
The Bible is the inerrant Word of God, God Himself Inspired it and when I study and believe in what it says I am 100% studying and believing in Him! It is as Lisa said the plumb line so we can easily ascertain False Teachers with their False Doctrines and so that we dont get lead astray by Wolves in Sheep Clothing and Satan disguised as an Angel of Light.
I believe the inspiration of this Thread is directly tied into the discussions held in the Thread concerning Paul being a False Apostle and what that is essentially coming down to is ones desire to reject Doctrine they dont want to adhere to or cast in low light Doctrine or act as tho Doctrine doesnt really matter. If we can go ahead and begin to chip at the foundation of our Doctrine then we can begin to chip at others who dare call out Doctrine as False or Damnable. Then we can teach anything we want without Judgement and always will have the ability to say I know that the Bible says this BUT since the Bible ISNT the Word of God really, we dont have to accept your correction even when it directly comes from the Bible, why? Because the Bible is flawed and we can reject whatever we dont like...
In that thread it is being brought up that Doctrine doesnt really matter, that Salvation isnt based on Doctrine, however is that really what the Bible teaches or is that someones desire because they personally reject the Bible and certain Doctrine? The Bible itself makes it very clear concerning Doctrine:
Deuteronomy 32:2
My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small rain upon the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass:
Job 11:4
For thou hast said, My doctrine is pure, and I am clean in thine eyes.
Matthew 7:28
And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine:
Matthew 15:9
But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Matthew 16:12
Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.
Mark 1:22
And they were astonished at his doctrine: for he taught them as one that had authority, and not as the scribes.
Mark 4:2
And he taught them many things by parables, and said unto them in his doctrine,
Mark 12:38
And he said unto them in his doctrine, Beware of the scribes, which love to go in long clothing, and love salutations in the marketplaces,
John 7:16
Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
John 7:17
If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.
So we see that clearly Jesus taught Doctrine and He clearly warned against False Doctrine, the Doctrine of His is sent from the Father. Doctrine is clearly essential to understanding God, to understanding and accepting Salvation. What else does the Bible say concerning Doctrine?
Acts 2:42
And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.
Acts 5:28
Saying, Did not we straitly command you that ye should not teach in this name? and, behold, ye have filled Jerusalem with your doctrine, and intend to bring this man's blood upon us.
We can see that the Apostles set down Doctrine and if we read these chapters fully the Gospel is clearly a huge portion of these Doctrine!!
Just as Jesus warned to watch for people with False Doctrine so too does the other Scriptures! Should we heed these words or are we going to invent reasons to reject them and say well Doctrine doesnt really matter?
Romans 16:17
Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
Ephesians 4:14
That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
1 Timothy 4:1
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2 Timothy 4:3
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
2 John 1:9
Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
2 John 1:10
If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
Revelation 2:14
But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.
Revelation 2:15
So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes, which thing I hate.
Jesus Himself condemns people for the Doctrine they hold, even saying He hates certain Doctrines. John says there are certain Doctrines one must abide by or they DO NOT have Christ. He like Paul tells us that if someone comes NOT bringing these correct Doctrine to neither receive them into their house nor wish them Godspeed! We see that there are Doctrine of Devils, Doctrine of men who are here to deceive, Doctrine that come from false teacher for those who have itchy ears, as well as Doctrine that lead to Damnation.
There is no doubt about it Doctrine is essential to our Salvation and to understanding Christ and God. There is no doubt about it that there are liars who are and have come that teach FALSE Doctrine, and we are to MARK them and avoid them. What I have seen in my years as a Christian it is usually those who are teaching these Damnable and False Doctrines that are also very adamant about trying to cast a negative light on the Word of God itself. If they can convince others that the Word of God isnt really the Word of God then they can teach their False and Damnable Doctrines much easier as anytime it is shown they ought to corrected well they can say, thats not really applicable.
There are a range of Doctrine, some of which are Salvation Dependent, and some that are not. Some that will cast others into Hell if they accept them, and others that wont. It isnt the ones that arent Salvation Dependent that truly cause False Teachers to attack the Word of God itself. I havent seen many people teach this or that form of Eschatology (a non salvation doctrine) that eventually attack the Word of God to uphold or dismiss their positions, same with many other non salvation dependent doctrines (Laying on of Hands, Speaking in Tongues, Sabbath ect).
However with Doctrines that concern Salvation it is almost assured that once that False Teacher comes to speak and others begin to reject their False Teachings it is not long before they begin to call into question the Word of God itself. From my time in debating others and studying these things the quickest Doctrines I see that lead to immediate rejection of the Word of God are, Christs Divinity, the Trinity, Paul as an Apostle or some other version of rejection of Paul, Universal Salvation, Jesus Father not being the God of Israel, and the many forms of Works Based Salvation. It is almost 100% guaranteed if someone comes around teaching these things, they are going to say the Bible isnt the Word of God.
And it is no wonder they take that position, because it is absolutely necessary to do so to uphold the Doctrines that are set against these Salvation Dependent Doctrines.
So this is why I believe this Thread is here, has nothing to with seeking God and everything to do with being able to justify to themselves why they can hold these Damnable Doctrines and not have others say anything against them...
If you want to discuss Salvation Dependent Doctrines vs Non Salvation Dependent Doctrines I am happy to have that conversation but I will leave that for another post...
The Bible is the inerrant Word of God, God Himself Inspired it and when I study and believe in what it says I am 100% studying and believing in Him! It is as Lisa said the plumb line so we can easily ascertain False Teachers with their False Doctrines and so that we dont get lead astray by Wolves in Sheep Clothing and Satan disguised as an Angel of Light.
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Todd
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To clarify I’m not saying the word of God contained in scripture is not important or necessary.
Jesus certainly did say to listen to his voice and placed no qualifier of level of faith on it. John 10:27 and John 18:36
seekinheart
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who would want to worship a God that you believe's scripture has been fully infiltrated/corrupted, if you think God would let that happen, then the God your worshipping isnt worth a cold cup of tea. Doesnt really make sense.
Karlysymon
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I understand. But going by what you are putting forth, if we were to do that i can guarantee, everyone will 'hear' God's voice and it will say different things. Using the forum as an example, even with Bibles, we resident Christians don't see eye to eye on all things.
Todd
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What exactly do you think I’m trying to put forth? Anything we believe we hear from God still needs to line up with his word. I’m not advocating a free for all.
I think your forum example actually supports my idea that God’s words are in the Bible but not everything in the Bible is God’s word. If the development of doctrine was strictly limited to words of Jesus and the direct quotes from Yahweh through the prophets there would be much less room for disagreement and confusion.
Instead what happens is we take the scriptures that are not direct quotes of Yahweh or the Messiah and use them to modify the face value of the actual words of God.
Lisa
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Why say “anything we believe we hear from God needs to line up with His word” when you’ve cut off half His word? Who then decides what to listen to and what not to listen to? You’re really on a slippery slope.
KoncreteMind
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Why doesn't it make sense? Our water, food, and air are corrupted/poisoned and these are the very things we need to survive.
Todd
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Your are not comprehending what I am proposing at all...
Karlysymon
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Are you suggesting we all become Red-Letter christians?
Todd
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Partly, though we would need to red letter all the prophecy and direct voice of God in the OT. But I’m not suggesting we get rid of the non red letter text. Only that non red letter text cannot change the original intent face value meaning of the red letter text.
Our core doctrine should be based on red letter text... non red letter is supplementary. If non red letter text appears to contradict red letter text, go with the red letter.
Am I making myself clear?
seekinheart
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damn todd, you might aswell do the blaspheme the holy spirit challenge I think you'd come out better off.
Todd
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Damien50
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But is this what you initially proposed? I get what you're saying but how does it tie into idolatry in respect to the Bible?
Is it that you're trying to say that doctrine should be formed and solely based and cross examined with the words of God as the control?
Or is it that you are insinuating that Christians take the words of Paul over Jesus and that they need a change?