Gun crime and the problem of legislating against the human heart

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#1
Jason A pulls together some questions that don’t normally make the news in the US gun control debate:-


In the UK, guns are hard to come by, so people simply use knives or vehicles to accomplish their evil wishes!

I liked this quote from C.S. Lewis on the nature of free beings, which coincidentally addresses some of the grandiose manifestos of some of the perpetrators of these mass shootings:-

“The better stuff a creature is made of- the cleverer and stronger and feer it is- then the better it will be if it goes right, but also the worse if it goes wrong. A cow cannot be very good or very bad; a dog can be both better and worse; a child better and worse still; an ordinary man, still more so; a man of genius, still more so; a superhuman spirit best- or worst- of all.
How did the Dark Power go wrong? Here, no doubt, we ask a question to which human beings cannot give an answer with any certainty. A reasonable (and traditional) guess, cased on our own experiences of going wrong, can, however, be offered. The moment you have a self at all, there is a possibility of putting yourself first- wanting to be the centre- wanting to be God, in fact. That was the sin of Satan: and that was the sin he taught to the human race. Some people think the fall of man had something to do with sex, but that is a mistake. (The story in the Book of Genesis rather suggests that some corruption in our sexual nature followed the fall and was its result, not its cause.) What Satan put into the heads of our remote ancestors was the idea that they could “be like gods”- could set up on their own as if they had created themselves- be their own masters- invent some sort of happiness for themselves outside God, apart from God. And out of that hopeless attempt has come nearly all that we call human history- money, poverty, ambition, war, prostitution, empires, classes, slavery- the long terrible story of man trying to find something other than God which will make him happy.
The reason why it can never succeed is this. God made us: invented us as a man invents an engine. A car is made to run on Gasoline, and it would not run on anything else. Now God designed the human machine to run on Himself. He Himself is the fuel our spirits were designed to burn, or the food our spirits were designed to feed on. There is no other. That is why it is just no good asking God to make us happy in our own way without bothering about religion. God cannot give us a happiness and peace apart from Himself, because it is not there. There is no such thing.
That is the key to history. Terrific energy is expended- civilisations are built up- excellent institutions devised; but each time something goes wrong. Some fatal flaw always brings the selfich and cruel people to the top and it all slides back into misery and ruin. In fact, the machine conks. It seems to start up all right and runs a few yards, and then it breaks down. They are trying to run it on the wrong juice. That is what Satan has done to us humans.”
~ C.S. Lewish, Mere Christianity (New York: Macmillan 1977) pg 54-55
 





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#3
Good read. But lefty’s don’t care. They just wanna blame guns and take them. But yet their bodyguards carry guns.
Fair points.
But again, (more) gun control doesn't mean gun total ban. Wanting more gun control while leaving room for legally authorized professional people (policemen, bodyguards) to own them is not incompatible.
Plenty of countries that don't have the same issue with gun violence as the US (which is pretty much the rest of the entire world lol) don't ban guns (and NO, they don't have knives or stone attack every single week neither... SMH). Their rules are just more strict.

Pro-gun and anti-gun have a fair share of hypocrisy so I'm not fond of the "meh Leftists" or "meh-Conservatives" narrative. Both sides are full of crap in the end of the day.

I'm Christian though, and when I fail to draw a line on whether I should endorse stuff or not, my thoughts are "would Jesus would be okay with this?" and since I can't hardly portray Jesus being okay with (gun) violence or even own guns, my stance about it is pretty clear.
Now, if people want to fight to have more access to deadly weapons let them be - we'll ALL be judged by our actions. I'm just profoundly bothered to see Christians defend this toxic ideology, deforming the Lord's word for politically motive... Just say you'd rather rely on (Satan induced) man-made tools rather than the Lord's protection, and go.
 





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#4
... Just say you'd rather rely on (Satan induced) man-made tools rather than the Lord's protection, and go.
Thanks for your observations - as far as I can tell the issue genuinely is more of a one of the human heart, but it does also have a connection to the wider society we find ourselves in. I am perfectly happy not to carry a gun - I live in the UK and at a push could use hand to hand combat to survive a random attack. I prefer Judo or Krav Maga as the idea would be to quickly immobilise an attacker.

If I were in the US, where guns seem to outnumber people, I don’t know how I would feel if, simplistically “only bad people carried guns”. This passage springs to mind, which seemed odd advice when I first read it as a child....

Luke 22

35And he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing. 36Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. 37For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end. 38And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough.
 





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#6
I’m a “lefty.” I own a gun. I also believe we can improve this situation and have a responsibility to do so. I do not support banning guns. Please lay off fox news.
When I went to Florida last year there was a huge sign near the hotel that said:-

“Shoot real machine guns”

How on earth does this seem like a worthwhile leisure activity? I think there is a huge difference between carrying, and knowing how to use a firearm, on the tiny chance you may need it, and celebrating gun culture in a crazy way. Maybe it’s just because I’m British...
 





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#7
When I went to Florida last year there was a huge sign near the hotel that said:-

“Shoot real machine guns”

How on earth does this seem like a worthwhile leisure activity? I think there is a huge difference between carrying, and knowing how to use a firearm, on the tiny chance you may need it, and celebrating gun culture in a crazy way. Maybe it’s just because I’m British...
Welcome to ‘Merica!
 





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#10
Lol, no Jesus probably wouldn't be in line to shoot the real machine guns in Florida. But he also wouldn't be studying Judo or Krav Maga.

Nice choices for self-defense BTW. I think everyone should know a little bit about striking and grappling. The problem with that is in America nobody actually fights. If anyone tries to rob or attack you they are going to have weapons or bring 5+ other guys to help them. With that said, I don't know that the average American is trying to be Godlike.

You see Satan and I see herdlike behavior. So these aren't wolves in sheep clothing, these are actual sheep.
 





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#11
Lol, no Jesus probably wouldn't be in line to shoot the real machine guns in Florida. But he also wouldn't be studying Judo or Krav Maga.

Nice choices for self-defense BTW. I think everyone should know a little bit about striking and grappling. The problem with that is in America nobody actually fights. If anyone tries to rob or attack you they are going to have weapons or bring 5+ other guys to help them. With that said, I don't know that the average American is trying to be Godlike.

You see Satan and I see herdlike behavior. So these aren't wolves in sheep clothing, these are actual sheep.
I’ve done Boxing and Karate as well... I wasn’t much for the spiritual aspects of Karate as our instructor had been to Japan and returned with some interesting ideas on emptying your mind and allowing the chi to flow ;-)

I’m not really bothered about fighting anyone, and especially not interested in deliberately targeting pressure points and causing pain - I used to just enjoy sparring and being able to immobilise opponents...

When it comes to some of the things that I have seen going on in the US, I stand by the idea that it is the human heart that is at fault. It might be that certain people are given extra encouragement by “powers and principalities” but I suspect the were heading that way anyway.
 





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#12
I’ve done Boxing and Karate as well... I wasn’t much for the spiritual aspects of Karate as our instructor had been to Japan and returned with some interesting ideas on emptying your mind and allowing the chi to flow ;-)

I’m not really bothered about fighting anyone, and especially not interested in deliberately targeting pressure points and causing pain - I used to just enjoy sparring and being able to immobilise opponents...

When it comes to some of the things that I have seen going on in the US, I stand by the idea that it is the human heart that is at fault. It might be that certain people are given extra encouragement by “powers and principalities” but I suspect the were heading that way anyway.
I thought Chi was a Chinese concept. Of course, I'm not an expert, but it doesn't seem like a fighting art. Although I think the fight starts in the minds of each combatant. So schools like that do have some intrinsic value.

As far as what you said about the heart, I think you might be on to something. In martial arts sometimes it isn't the most technical fighter who wins. A lot of fights come down to heart. In that case, there are clear parallels that can be drawn. Humanity may well be losing the grandest battle.
 





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#13
When I went to Florida last year there was a huge sign near the hotel that said:-

“Shoot real machine guns”

How on earth does this seem like a worthwhile leisure activity? I think there is a huge difference between carrying, and knowing how to use a firearm, on the tiny chance you may need it, and celebrating gun culture in a crazy way. Maybe it’s just because I’m British...
You should have done it....it's fun.

General reply. No aim (or pun) intended.
My problem with the gun control crowd is that they'll say reasonable and common sense. Implying that if you disagree you are not reasonable or have common sense. Or say ban assault weapon without defining assault weapon.
 





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#15
Well what would you think is common sense gun reform?
What is common sense abortion reform from the millions of babies killed by abortion?

Or what about alcohol and driving reform from all the people drunk drivers kill?

Why is it gun reform???? Let’s got after the criminals not guns.

Gun reform is stupid and will only take guns from law abiding citizens. I’ll gladly give up my rifle when the police do too. If everyone gives up their rifles, why would the police need them?????
 





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#16
You should have done it....it's fun.

General reply. No aim (or pun) intended.
My problem with the gun control crowd is that they'll say reasonable and common sense. Implying that if you disagree you are not reasonable or have common sense. Or say ban assault weapon without defining assault weapon.
Please define assault weapon or assault rifle
 





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#17
I’ll gladly give up my rifle when the police do too. If everyone gives up their rifles, why would the police need them?????
I dont have a rifle but if I had a dog in the fight for the improvement of this place, that would be my stance. Why would people willingly give up their guns at the same time the police seem to be militarizing themselves? How can nutjobs killing people mean that you should take away guns from people who are not killing people? People by now should be peeping game. The same day of the shooting and they're already talking about gun control and people are still going back and forth about this?
 





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#18
What is common sense abortion reform from the millions of babies killed by abortion?

Or what about alcohol and driving reform from all the people drunk drivers kill?

Why is it gun reform???? Let’s got after the criminals not guns.

Gun reform is stupid and will only take guns from law abiding citizens. I’ll gladly give up my rifle when the police do too. If everyone gives up their rifles, why would the police need them?????
We limit abortions to viability. That was “common sense” abortion reform

We require people be a certain age to drink and have laws against drunk driving that if someone breaks they can’t drive anymore. There was a time when we outlawed alcohol but that didn’t work and wasn’t profitable. So all these things are “common sense” reforms.

“Common sense” gun reform would be ensuring everyone gets a background check. That people who have been involved in violent criminal acts can’t purchase them. That someone doesn’t have enough guns to power a small army stockpiled somewhere. There’s a lot of room for improvement herethat doesn’t come anywhere close to “taking peoples guns”
 





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#19
...That someone doesn’t have enough guns to power a small army stockpiled somewhere...
But that’s what the 2A is all about. Try again

“A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.”
 





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#20
But that’s what the 2A is all about. Try again

“A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.”
No one person needs all that firepower. A militia, an actual militia, is something different. So no, not try again.

I believe in the right to bear arms but there has to be some responsibility as well.