God already planned our lives, and we are merely just going along with the script. What say you?

Maes17

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@Maes17

The greasing didn't work. The Tidal bot is still repeating out of context comments that it has made before.

Also I notice it has not updated its video feed for 10 years.

A decade can take a toll on an old bot like this.
I think we need to jam the tip of a pen into its reset hole.
Reset! Reset!
Mick is malfunctioned
 






Tidal

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Jesus told the snooty jewish priests straight out that they were going up the spout..:)-

 






Maldarker

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Would you like to continue this because there is definitely evidence and although this post is mainly regarding if our lives are pre-destined or not, the chosen ones do in fact have a mention here so...
Are you of jewish descent?
 






Tidal

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After Jesus cured people, he warned them to "sin no more", indicating that they had free will to heed his warning and save their asses..:)
 






TokiEl

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God has chosen who will make it they say... and that's why they don't bother to try.


But the truth is... is just you who have chosen not to make it.

You thought yourselves out of it..L0L
 






shankara

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Their doctrine is even more dramatic than that. The wiki entry says the Calvinists "believe that God picked those whom he will save and bring with him to Heaven before the world was created. They also believe that those people God does not save will go to Hell."

In fairness it appears that all religions and philosophers have wrestled with the concept of predestination. I think the question of free will vs. predestination is an interesting paradox( and good science-fiction material lol). Notwithstanding the belief in an omniscient intelligence that caused the universe to be, if we were to remove the dimension of time overlaying our perception of reality, then isn't what happens in the future already done?

@shankara I sense you were poking fun at the Calvinists but how different is their theology from the Eastern theory of karma? I found this website which is a polemic against Hinduism so I take it with a pillar of salt but there are some reasonable claims that Eastern religions have the exact same notion as the West. Now through a quick search other writers are saying, "no no no karma is completely different." I don't know but on the surface their theory of inevitable circumstances seems quite similar:

Predestination in Hinduism

As a loose generalization I'd say that the most faithful people hold the strongest feeling that everything is controlled by God, which is a blessed way to see life. I think for a Christian and Muslim it's essential to be familiar with the classical debates reconciling free will with predeterminism. The Christian wiki entry is informative and summarizes the thoughts of great minds like Augustine, John of Damascus, and Thomas Aquinas. The Mormons denied predestination but developed a similar concept referred to as foreordination:

Predestination

I'm learning how important the concept of Qadar (divine decree) is within Islam, as one aspect of Iman (the 6 articles of faith). Very interesting that the minority Shia are said to reject predestination, emphasizing the concept of bada (alteration of divine will). Their argument is that the knowledge of God is absolute but the knowledge of humans and angels can be revised. In the words of one Shia- "God has not fixed a definite and final form for the course of human history". I'm positive there are better sources but to share what I'm looking at:

Predestination in Islam
Well I think that Karma is a very different idea to Predestination. We basically experience the reactions of our past deeds ripening in various ways, be it in this life or future lives. Perhaps if we are on a very low level of personal development we could remain in a certain sense slaves of those past reactions, but even then we have possibilities to exercise some individual will. Spirituality (and trying to be a decent human being in general) allows us to work to burn up the karmic seeds which will bear fruit in various ways. Some people talk about "positive karma", like for example that being born rich would be a good thing in allowing us to have a lot of different pleasures. But actually being rich (especially very rich) is a massive karmic trap, in the sense that it would take away from us the possibility to work and struggle to survive, which can be a great impetus to spiritual growth.

There is really no "positive karma" or "negative karma", in order to attain liberation we have to overcome Karma completely, be freed from the whole process of action and reaction, which can only come about by the destruction of the false self or mind. That's not to say that "good deeds" in the sense of socially or spiritually useful action should be avoided, these can be means of burning up the karmic seeds (because our true self is identical with the true self of all beings).

In any case, it is our own efforts which determine how our karma will work out, there is no deity dooming people to experience things out of some capricious personal will. When you think about, the notion of Predestination (in both Christianity and Islam) is basically saying that we have no choice whatsoever. I encountered a Muslim who was talking about earthquakes in India, saying they were God's punishment for persecution of Muslims. I pointed out that the people killed had nothing personallly to do with the persecution of Muslims, his response was that this was fine because "they would either go to heaven or hell". That's the kind of monstrous logic that notions like Predestination can create, human beings become mere incidental notes in the divine drama of deity's personal likes and dislikes, in which the fate of individual humans means nothing, even if that fate be eternal suffering. A deity who simply decides in advance "this one I will favour both on earth and in the afterlife, and this one I will destroy both on earth and in the afterlife" would be a very cruel and arbitrary kind of god indeed, one without any respect for the dignity of the human souls caught up in its strange game.

But what you say about "God being in control", I think is quite a different thing. This is renouncing our clinging to the results of actions, giving up our personal preferences for how things might work out to a higher purpose, a Being beyond ourselves. Trying to control things is a way of getting deeper enmeshed in Karma, which is effectively the result of selfish personal desires.


EDIT: A little note on that article on Predestination in Hinduism. For one, it is quoting the Vedas which are "Karmakanda" and not generally considered to be means of attaining Moksha by the more developed philosophical schools. The Vedanta is of much more importance in terms of Moksha. Yes, there is the idea that certain Karmic fruits which are already in the process of ripening cannot be avoided, however that isn't true of Karma in its totality. For example, once I have stepped in front of a moving car, I am bound to be hit, but if I have previously looked at the road to see if a car was coming I can avoid being hit by one.
 






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elsbet

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I want to start off by saying, yes, by the title, I am suggesting we may be living in a simulation- BUT one that is created by God himself. I have seen many Bible verses suggesting we're just acting as he wants us to because everything is simply a story- a meaningful story. So in other words, if we have free will, it's just slight. Our outcomes have already been determined.

Isaiah 45:7 "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things."

I don't think many people have had this thought pop up in their mind: "If God says he created good, then how would good have the choice to be evil if it was meant to be good?"

Let's put this into perspective: If I make a square cake, it would not have the option to suddenly form into cupcakes.

We are just a story, everyone, including angels and demons, have been created with a script.

Why does God have a specific chosen people? Why did God purposely harden Pharaoh's heart? Why do the Seraph angels continue to say "Holy Holy Holy" without being able to stop, and have no other purpose but to praise God? Why did God say he would put a spirit of anger into the world leaders so they can destroy Babylon? Simple. Because he is in control; he is the author writing what he wants to happen.

And the only ones getting a happy ending are his chosen ones whom, by the way, HE chooses. I have heard Christians say, "It's your choice if you want to go to heaven or not!" No it's not. It's God's choice. Whoever is fortunate enough will be chosen and if they're chosen that means they have played the role of being a faithful servant because that's what their character was created to do. One cannot send themselves to hell or heaven, did you forget we are mere fragile human beings who can easily get killed by simple weather conditions?

"So are you saying this is all for entertainment purposes?" You ask? In a way, yes, but that is not the main answer. The main answer is so it can benefit the chosen people of God. God purposely puts obstacles, who are demons and/or life struggles in the way so his chosen ones can learn and grow from these things. Then when all is said and done, evil will forever be destroyed and God's chosen ones get to experience peace for eternity. This world was intended for his chosen people anyway- God even says he created the world for them. If this is the case, this means lucifer was meant to be evil, demons were purposely created as well, and this all goes back to God saying he created both good and evil.

This entire earth as we know it is just a battleground for a chosen people, which they will succeed in the end, then this world will be destroyed and God will create another world for them to dwell on for all of eternity. This also suggests everyone else will be damned. Everyone else was also created, just as lucifer and his demons, to bring tribulation to the chosen ones. We know the world persecutes God's people, that is why they will be erased from existence in the end. They are merely pawns.

But either way, God has us all in checkmate. So what say you?

Edit: I forgot to mention, this is just how I personally see it; an opinion if you will. You need not heed my words.
I think Calvin may have been on board with this, too... iirc.
 






Oceanic

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@Oceanic,


Well the Bible is clear in all its teachings that we have free will. Since the Bible is God's message to us its also very clear that we are not living in a simulation and there is definitely no script. The square cake is not a living breathing soul and has no free will.

I don't think as mere mortals and created beings who are limited in our knowledge on everything, we can understand how evil came to be. But the Bible is clear that God did not create it.

All of God's intelligent beings (including angels and mankind) were created free to choose between obedience or disobedience to God's principles of truth, righteousness, and love. Lucifer (meaning "light-bearer" and Satan's heavenly name), one of the most exalted cherubim, misused his freedom of choice (Deuteronomy 30:19; Galatians 6:7-8). This was the beginning of the great rebellion in heaven. Lucifer became Satan (meaning "adversary"). He set aside the law of God through self-exaltation, deception, lying, and murder (Ezekiel 28:13-15, 17; Isaiah 14:12-14; Revelation 12:7, 8; John 8:44, 1 John 3:15).


I'm not sure what you mean by a chosen people. Do you mean the Jews or a mixture of Jews and Gentiles?

Biblically God chose Israel for a purpose and that purpose was to spread the Gospel to the whole world. God always planned that all people He created would reconcile back with Him. He did not choose Israel because they were more special than others. The Israelites and later the Jews forgot this purpose and became proud. They became an exclusive people and did not let anyone in. They looked down on anyone who wasn't them. When Jesus came to earth He told them that this plan was still going to continue. In the New Covenant, as was supposed to be in the Old Covenant anyone who joined Israel becomes/became a Jew. Paul and other apostles made it clear that Gentiles who join Israel are Jews and are God's people. God's people are those who choose to submit and follow Jesus Christ by choice because they have free will. Being part of Israel is not about genealogy, its about accepting Jesus as one's personal Saviour and doing His will. The Bible teaches plainly that “in Christ” the division between Jew and Gentile has been done away with. Paul wrote in Romans 10:11-13, "For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”


Did God did harden Pharaoh's heart or did Pharaoh harden his own heart? Lets compare what some passages say in the Bible.

Exodus 4:21 says, "And the Lord said to Moses, “When you go back to Egypt, see that you do all those wonders before Pharaoh which I have put in your hand. But I will harden his heart, so that he will not let the people go."

Exodus 9:12, "But the Lord hardened the heart of Pharaoh; and he did not heed them, just as the Lord had spoken to Moses."

Exodus 8:15, "But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and did not heed them, as the Lord had said."


Pharaoh hardened his own heart against God. God kept asking Pharaoh through Moses to let His people go, He gave Pharaoh signs, worked miracles in his court, and then sent the first nine plagues. And Pharaoh still refused! Pharaoh said: “Who is the Lord, that I should obey His voice to let Israel go? I do not know the Lord, nor will I let Israel go” (Exodus 5:2). When God sent out the plagues, Pharaoh and other pagan Egyptians were challenged in their beliefs. God proved to him and them that He is the real and true God and more powerful than their man-made gods. But with each plague Pharaoh's heart became more hardened. Just as exercise strengthens muscles, repeated rejection of truth strengthens rebellion.

This has happened all throughout man's history. During the flood for example, Noah preached for 120 years the judgement of the flood for sinners and that they should turn to God and repent. He preached while building the Ark. Most people rejected His message. Only his family responded and repented. When the flood did happen those who responded and repented were saved. Did God purposefully harden the hearts of the majority who rejected His message through Noah for all those years? No! Their hearts were hardened by choice. God knew they would but He did not will it to happen. God's foreknowledge does not take away our free will.

So God knew Pharaoh would harden his heart but it was entirely Pharaoh's choice to do so. Pharaoh had plenty of obvious warnings from God, and he chose to ignore every one of them. If he'd backed down after the first plague, the other nine wouldn't have been necessary. Instead, he hardened his own heart even more against God.


That was the purpose they were created for and they are happy and fulfilled doing it. They would have had a choice to reject what they were created for just as Satan and 1/3 of all the evil angels did and who were eventually thrown out of heaven for rebelling against God.


Where did God say He would put anger into the world leaders? Can you show actual Scripture from the Bible?


You're right God is always in control but not of our wills. He could have chosen to control our wills from the get go when He created intelligent beings starting with the angels but that would make us all puppets incapable of thinking on our own and making our own decisions. You are proving that God gave you a choice by posting this thread with these beliefs and opinions. You would not be able to think this let alone be able to post it because God would not allow anyone to say anything negative about Him if He was controlling our wills. God is love, and love does not force. He wants us to come to Him willingly not from fear. He has told us the consequences of what will happen when we choose Him or when we choose Satan. Its up to us who we choose.

There is also the issue of sin. What you're saying is that God is the minister if sin, not Satan. Satan is just a pawn after all and is only doing what he was created to do which is for the benefit of the few chosen ones. He had no say or choice in any of his actions. Why would a loving God create this world, allow sin and all its devastation through the ages take hold of this world the way it has? Does God enjoy seeing people suffer and die? Why would He choose to create people to suffer, to cause them to sin and then cause them to be lost and eventually burned and destroyed in hell? Wouldn't that make God evil and much worse than Satan? That will make the Bible which is God's Word a lie because it says God is "not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance" (2 Peter 3:9).

God also said, "As I live,’ says the Lord God, ‘I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why should you die, O house of Israel?’ " (Ezekiel 33:11). According to you God created most people to be sinners, lost and destroyed so He was lying when He said He has no pleasure in the death of the wicked. The whole Bible is one lie after another based on your logic.

There is also Jesus' sacrifice for our sins. Did He not die in our stead so we may not perish but have everlasting life should we choose to submit and follow Him? Is the Bible lying when it says:

“For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life” (John 3:16).

“In this the love of God was manifested toward us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through Him. In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins” (1 John 4:9-10).

“As many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name” (John 1:12).


It is our choice if we want to go to heaven. When we submit to God, we are partners with Him and choose to let Him walk by our side in our daily lives. We open our hearts to Him and let Him in by choice. Then He begins the process of destroying our old sinful selves and changing us into a new spiritual creations (2 Corinthians 5:17). We begin to experience the glorious freedom from guilt and condemnation, and the old life of sin becomes repulsive to us.


This statement is false and makes God evil as I said before. It would mean God is having fun and does not care about the suffering of billions of people since the beginning and all for the few who are chosen? That would make God worse than Satan who He created as I posted above. It would mean God purposefully created Satan, created sin, started the rebellion in heaven in which Satan managed to lie and manipulate a third of all the angels in heaven and then get thrown out and came o this earth and wreaked havoc for thousands of years until Jesus comes back the second time. It means that God ultimately caused/causes sinners to be lost and eventually destroyed in hell.

Where in the Bible does it say God created the world for the chosen people? Can I see actual scripture to prove that?

Again where in the Bible does it say God created good and evil? Please show actual scripture. What I do know is that God is not responsible for the entrance of sin in heaven and on earth.


Not according to God's Word. A loving God DID NOT and WOULD NOT create Satan and most people (most people are going to hell according to the Bible) to sin, suffer and be destroyed in hell eventually just "to bring tribulation to the chosen ones." He would not send His Son to die the most painful death on the cross to satisfy the death penalty for only a chosen few. That would be beyond evil. The Bible says Jesus died for ALL not a chosen few (2 Corinthians 5:15, 1 John 2:2).


God's people have always been persecuted because of the devil. Satan hates God's people (those who've chosen by their own free will to submit and follow God) because he hates God. Because they chose God over him. The Bible tells us Satan wants to be worshipped like God. The Bible says of Satan, “You have said in your heart: … ‘I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; … I will be like the Most High’ ” (Isaiah 14:13-14). Satan is proud and jealous of God. He wants to be like God but he can't be because he is a created being. He also knows his fate. It is hell and losing his life eternally. Jesus said hell was only meant for Satan and his evil angels (Matthew 25:41) but unfortunately many people will go to hell because they chose not to submit to God. They chose Satan instead. Satan wants as many people as possible to lose their lives eternally because he knows that will hurt God very much because He loves all (not some) the people He created very much. The Bible warns us, "Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour" (1 Peter 5:8). Why would God warn anyone to be sober and vigilant if He already knows the chosen who are going to be saved anyway? No matter what Satan did or didn't do they are still going to be saved, they still win.

No one with free will is a pawn. God did not create pawns either.


He does not have us in checkmate and that would suggest that God is evil, more evil than Satan because He created all beings in this earth. It means He is in heaven watching people being murdered, starving children and adults, abuse, r*pe, paedophilia, people dying from illness, natural disasters etc and allowing most of mankind to suffer in untold ways just to "puts obstacles, who are demons and/or life struggles in the way so his chosen ones can learn and grow from these things"? That is beyond disgusting and a horrible thing to say about a loving God who created us out of love and wants to save all of us.


This all sounds like the Predestination teaching (also called “unconditional grace” or “predestination”) which basically states that God has chosen some people to be saved and the others to be lost. Man's choice have no impact in God's decision. A key passage used to support this view is found in Paul’s writings in Romans 8:29-30, "For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified."

Bible passages can be used to support the concept that God knows all things past, present, and future. “All things are naked and open to the eyes of Him to whom we must give account” (Hebrews 4:13). Bible prophecy affirms that God knows the future, but future events do not happen because God “foreknew” them; rather, they are known by God because they will take place. Moreover, because God knows something will happen does not mean He wills it to happen.

Did God predestinate that only some would be saved? Paul writes elsewhere that God “desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth” (1 Timothy 2:4). If only some are predestined to be saved, why would Jesus offer salvation to all? Christ said, in the closing chapter of the Bible, Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely” (Revelation 22:17).

God has an all-knowing perspective. He knows whether we are going to be saved or lost, but this knowledge does not take away our free choice. We know this because of the many Scripture passages that demonstrate our freedom to choose. Joshua told Israel to “choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve” (Joshua 24:15). The story of the fall of mankind shows the high value (and high price) that God gave to Adam and Eve when He let them choose whether to obey or disobey Him.
But the Bible is clear that God did not create it.
Then why does GOD tell us in Isaiah Chapter 45 verse 7 this? --> "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things." He, not even his prophets, but he HIMSELF is bluntly telling us he created evil aside from good.

I'm not sure what you mean by a chosen people. Do you mean the Jews or a mixture of Jews and Gentiles?
From what I've been studying, I'm talking about the Jews however the Jews can also be referred to as gentiles since they were/are slaves that were forcefully put upon other Nations. There are two groups of gentiles: There are the Nations themselves, and then there are the Jews who were forced to accustom themselves within these Nations. Example being Americans. African-Americans? The Africans were forced in America, and now they're called African-Americans.

God always planned that all people He created would reconcile back with Him. He did not choose Israel because they were more special than others
I totally disagree. God repeatedly tells us the Israelites are his chosen people.

Deuteronomy 14:2 "For you are a people holy to the Lord your God, and the Lord has chosen you to be a people for his treasured possession, out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth."

John 15:16 "You did not choose me, but I chose you."

Galatians 3:29 "And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise."

Psalm 135:4 "For the Lord has chosen Jacob for himself, Israel as his own possession."

Do you see how God keeps repeating that HE is the one that CHOSE Israel suggesting everyone else is a goner, and they were only born to punish the Israelites TEMPORARILY before all is said and done? Why do you think these other races are above them, and why they're "suddenly" being punished?...The earth was meant for God's chosen ones. Who are his chosen ones according to HIM? The Israelites. And if you don't believe it, I have to assume you're in denial especially if you aren't from the seed of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

Exodus 4:21
Uh, you just proved my point.

That was the purpose they were created for and they are happy and fulfilled doing it
Proving my point again. That is their PURPOSE as you and I both said, and that's all there is to it.

Where did God say He would put anger into the world leaders? Can you show actual Scripture from the Bible?
Revelation 17:16-17 "The beast and the ten horns you saw will hate the prostitute. They will bring her to ruin and leave her naked; they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire. For God has put it into their hearts to accomplish his purpose by agreeing to hand over to the beast their royal authority, until God’s words are fulfilled."

Satan is just a pawn after all and is only doing what he was created to do which is for the benefit of the few chosen ones.
That is exactly what I'm suggesting. You should know that God has also mentioned countless times that this world was created for his people, but they disobeyed him so every other Nation was created to punish them for it. But God says he still chooses Israel which is why the thousand years will happen, followed by the destruction of this earth and the birthing of a new one. So satan was created as an evil spirit to build up his people, in order to bring hardships unto God's chosen people via slavery, both mentally and physically. That's pretty much the plot of this "story".

Is the Bible lying when it says:
“For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life” (John 3:16).
Salvation is only offered to the chosen ones. Please Phipps, why do you think they keep being referred to as "Chosen"? Then you may ask, "Okay then why did he say the world"? Because of slavery, Israelites aren't only in one part of the world. They are everywhere, speaking in a language that isn't their own. Black people are literally the only race in the world that don't have their own natural last names.

It is our choice if we want to go to heaven
No it's not. If there are a chosen people, then how can we choose on our own? We can't.

It would mean God is having fun and does not care about the suffering of billions of people since the beginning and all for the few who are chosen?
No, despite it being pre-destined, this isn't for mere entertainment purposes although it is pretty amusing. This is to discipline the chosen ones, which works, since we know all the good blessings they'll get in the end. The only ones this isn't good for is anyone who isn't chosen. And as I said, all Israelites won't be saved either. God says only a 1/3rd of them will be saved, meanwhile the 2/3rds are getting punished with the rest of the Nations.

Where in the Bible does it say God created the world for the chosen people? Can I see actual scripture to prove that?
See Deuteronomy 14:2.

Again where in the Bible does it say God created good and evil? Please show actual scripture.
I guess you just read the title, part of my post, and then posted your comment because if you pay attention, I already gave you the scripture which is Isaiah 45:7 that says he created evil alongside good. I do not appreciate that you immediately jumped to conclusions without fully reading my post.

just to "puts obstacles, who are demons and/or life struggles in the way so his chosen ones can learn and grow from these things"? That is beyond disgusting and a horrible thing to say about a loving God
Although struggling isn't fun, it's supposed to build you up which is what God is doing for his people. Just as a parent would to their child. Take away their games, yell at them, maybe whoop them, all so they can learn as a resolution. It's not fun but it's beneficial and that's all there is to it.

Personally, I'm going through multiple hardships concerning my home, my self care, my family and not to mention the system in America that's meant to bring my people and I down. Obviously ain't fun but if that's what it takes to get me to turn to God, I'll go through it. I consider it to be various life lessons.
 






elsbet

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@Oceanic

I have a couple of questions, if you don't mind... and I did read the entire OP. :)
Salvation is only offered to the chosen ones...
Then you may ask, "Okay then why did he say the world"? Because of slavery, Israelites aren't only in one part of the world. They are everywhere, speaking in a language that isn't their own.​
Above, you are referring to the African people sold into slavery sometime in the 18th and 19th centuries, in the United States and Europe (I think), correct?

Or do you include the Israelites, liberated from Egypt, as well?

The Gentiles--> in your opinion, what makes someone a Gentile? Are black people (and their families) who were not sold into slavery considered Gentiles, as well?

The circumstances and events at the Tower of Babel: how do they fit into your narrative? I see its effects are included in your reasoning-- the scattering, the languages-- but I'm not sure how it ties into your understanding of the chosen people.

Thank you ~•

 






Tidal

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Topic title: God already planned our lives, and we are merely just going along with the script. What say you?
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I know a middleaged christian street preacher whose life is a complete mess because he's got a "fatalist" streak and entrusts God to run his life without bothering to lift a finger to help himself.
As a result he's got two failed marriages behind him, he's been hauled up court twice for not paying his council tax, and has had his electricity and phone cut off at various times for not paying his bills.
Examples of his brainless approach-
1- i was sitting on a bench chatting to him and as we parted I said "shall we arrange to meet for another chat next week?" to which he replied "No, lets leave it to God. if we bump into each other we'll know it's God's will".
2- Another time he invited me to cycle back to his place with him for tea, it was dark but he had no lights on his bike because his attitude was "If I get hit by a car it'll be God's will".
You couldn't make it up.
I read the riot act to him and told him to get some control and organisation into his friggin life, and quoted this verse at him-
"For God did not give us a spirit of timidity, but a spirit of power, of love and of selfdiscipline" (2 Tim 1:7)
 






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Oceanic

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@Oceanic

I have a couple of questions, if you don't mind... and I did read the entire OP. :)
Above, you are referring to the African people sold into slavery sometime in the 18th and 19th centuries, in the United States and Europe (I think), correct?

Or do you include the Israelites, liberated from Egypt, as well?

The Gentiles--> in your opinion, what makes someone a Gentile? Are black people (and their families) who were not sold into slavery considered Gentiles, as well?

The circumstances and events at the Tower of Babel: how do they fit into your narrative? I see its effects are included in your reasoning-- the scattering, the languages-- but I'm not sure how it ties into your understanding of the chosen people.

Thank you ~•

Above, you are referring to the African people sold into slavery sometime in the 18th and 19th centuries, in the United States and Europe (I think), correct?
Yes.

The Gentiles
--> in your opinion, what makes someone a Gentile? Are black people (and their families) who were not sold into slavery considered Gentiles, as well?
I'm seeing two groups of gentiles here: There's the Nations, for example, German people in Germany...and obviously the race they fall in is white. And then there's Black people (obviously their nationality is also considered German- except they're black. Afro-Germans I guess) who live in Germany and can therefore be a gentile because they're not in their original land. I live in America and this isn't my original land, so I'm a Jew BY BLOOD but I'm a gentile at the same time because I live here. So there's our two groups. Speaking of which, which group of gentiles is getting redemption? Those born from Abraham, Issac, and Jacob's line, who are black or Israelites if you will. Don't forget the Bible is unfortunately white-washed.

The circumstances and events at the Tower of Babel: how do they fit into your narrative?
Originally everyone, including non-black people spoke Hebrew because it was the first language ever created by God, but because of this event, God gave everyone a different language to speak in. See, I'm yet again seeing God being the one controlling the narrative here. This, to ME, was meant to happen in order to establish the Israelites being scattered and being forced to speak languages that aren't their own. No wonder this event happened.
 






Oceanic

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I know a middleaged christian street preacher whose life is a complete mess because he's got a "fatalist" streak and entrusts God to run his life without bothering to lift a finger to help himself.
As a result he's got two failed marriages behind him, he's been hauled up court twice for not paying his council tax, and has had his electricity and phone cut off at various times for not paying his bills.
Examples of his brainless approach-
1- i was sitting on a bench chatting to him and as we parted I said "shall we arrange to meet for another chat next week?" to which he replied "No, lets leave it to God. if we bump into each other we'll know it's God's will".
2- Another time he invited me to cycle back to his place with him for tea, it was dark but he had no lights on his bike because his attitude was "If I get hit by a car it'll be God's will".
You couldn't make it up.
I read the riot act to him and told him to get some control and organisation into his friggin life, and quoted this verse at him-
"For God did not give us a spirit of timidity, but a spirit of power, of love and of selfdiscipline" (2 Tim 1:7)
Thanks for sharing. You also did this in the feminist thread. I suggest you actually be a mature adult and stop childishly derailing people's threads with your supposed stories.
 






Tidal

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Messages
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Topic title: God already planned our lives, and we are merely just going along with the script. What say you?
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Some people are like unthinking zombies with spent batteries such as the street preacher I mentioned, but the rest of us have the good sense to take firm control of our lives, It's a POWER thing..:)
"Our gospel came to you not simply with words but also with power"- (1 Thess 1:5)
"Everybody tried to touch Jesus because power was coming from him" (Luke 6:12-19)
Jesus said - "Someone touched me, I know that power has gone out from me." (Luke 8:46)
"I am full of power, judgement and might by the spirit of the Lord" (Mic 3:8)
"The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds" (2 Cor 10:4)
"Our gospel came to you not simply with words but also with power"- (1 Thess 1:5)

"Be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power" (Ephesians 6:10)

 






phipps

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@Oceanic
Then why does GOD tell us in Isaiah Chapter 45 verse 7 this? --> "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things." He, not even his prophets, but he HIMSELF is bluntly telling us he created evil aside from good.
God is talking about how He created day and night, the light of the day and the darkness of the night. Verse 6 says, "That they may know from the rising of the sun to its setting That there is none besides Me. I am the Lord, and there is no other."

This goes hand in hand with the creation story in Genesis 1:3-5 which says, "Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light. And God saw the light, that it was good; and God divided the light from the darkness. God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. So the evening and the morning were the first day." Indeed God is great and there is none like Him because only He can create and did create the earth and all that is in it.

God is not the author of evil nor is there any evil in His heart.

From what I've been studying, I'm talking about the Jews however the Jews can also be referred to as gentiles since they were/are slaves that were forcefully put upon other Nations. There are two groups of gentiles: There are the Nations themselves, and then there are the Jews who were forced to accustom themselves within these Nations. Example being Americans. African-Americans? The Africans were forced in America, and now they're called African-Americans.
I'm a Bible based Christian and only interested in what God's Word says because it is the truth. The Jews in the Old Covenant were descendants of Abraham, most of them anyway. In the New Covenant the Bible made it clear that Gentiles (those who are not Jews genetically) can join Israel/the church and become Jews if they accept Jesus as their personal Saviour, submit and follow Him. In other words, all true Christians (regardless of race or nation) are now God’s spiritual Israel. They are a chosen people by choice.

The real Israel of God is "remnant according to the election of grace" (Romans 11:5). In Romans 11:17-24, Paul speaks of the olive tree that represents Israel. The branches (Jews) were broken off because of unbelief and the wild olive shoots (Gentiles) were grafted in to share in the nourishment of the tree. The natural branches could be grafted back into the tree if they accepted the conditions. God is no respecter of nations or individuals. All who turn to Him will be accepted

Paul plainly shows that God’s inclusion of Gentiles in His special people does not mean He favours Gentiles over Israelites. “For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?” (Romans 11:24).

God plays no favourites. Even those who are Israelites by physical descent have to be grafted into the tree—having been cut off due to disobedience. Thankfully, there is a way to be grafted back in—and that way is the same way available to Gentiles.

Jew and Gentile alike enjoy access to God’s promises through Christ: “There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus” (Galatians 3:28). We are all one In Christ Jesus. This is plain to understand.

The special and holy people of God, like Abraham, are obedient people—selected from all nations—who have chosen not to live by bread alone, “but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God” (Matthew 4:4). Their trust in God comes from the heart and is demonstrated by their obedient actions. God’s Spirit works in them to produce faith and obedience, making them special to God.

This is from my thread True Israel.

So those who do not accept Jesus and submit to Him are Gentiles and that includes genetic Jews or descendants of Abraham too. Spiritually they are Gentiles. They are not part of the Israel of God, the true Church.

I totally disagree. God repeatedly tells us the Israelites are his chosen people.

Deuteronomy 14:2 "For you are a people holy to the Lord your God, and the Lord has chosen you to be a people for his treasured possession, out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth."

John 15:16 "You did not choose me, but I chose you."

Galatians 3:29 "And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise."

Psalm 135:4 "For the Lord has chosen Jacob for himself, Israel as his own possession."
Yes Israelites are God's chosen people and the New Testament as I've shown you above tells us who is a true Israelite. In the New Covenant being a physical descendant of Abraham does not give one an advantage. They were not chosen because they were more special than other people. God chose them for a purpose which they mainly failed at. God does not favour Jews above other people. They have to come to Christ like we all have to. Whether one is a Jew or not is not the issue. The issue is whether their hearts are circumcised and they have faith in Christ.

All the scripture you quoted whether its the Old or New Testament shows that Israel according the New Covenant inherits God’s covenant promises that were made to genetic Jews in the Old Covenant. Those who have accepted Christ become the chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God (1 Peter 2:9-10 and Exodus 19:5-6).

Paul wrote, "Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham" (Galatians 3:7).

Galatians 3:14, "that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith."

A real Jew in the sight of God is anybody, Jew or Gentile who has personal faith in Jesus Christ!

Do you see how God keeps repeating that HE is the one that CHOSE Israel suggesting everyone else is a goner, and they were only born to punish the Israelites TEMPORARILY before all is said and done? Why do you think these other races are above them, and why they're "suddenly" being punished?...The earth was meant for God's chosen ones. Who are his chosen ones according to HIM? The Israelites.
You still don't get it do you? Yes God chose Israel BUT He chose them for a purpose. He didn't just choose them willy nilly. He chose them to spread the gospel, to evangelise to the whole world which they failed at mostly. Had Israel done that which they were meant to do, Israel would be a very big nation made up of both Israelites and Gentiles. Even in the Old Covenant there were non Jews who joined Israel and God told them, “And when a stranger dwells with you and wants to keep the Passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as a native of the land. For no uncircumcised person shall eat it” (Exodus 12:48). Showing fairness for all, God continued, “One law shall be for the native-born and for the stranger who dwells among you” (verse 49). Later, God added: “You shall neither mistreat a stranger nor oppress him, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt” (Exodus 22:21).

A good example of God’s acceptance of non-Israelites in the Old Testament is found in the life of Ruth. Though a Moabite by birth (Ruth 1:1-4), she came to respect and follow God. As Ruth told Naomi, her Israelite mother-in-law, after the premature death of her husband: “Your people shall be my people, and your God, my God” (verse 16). Ruth then married an Israelite man named Boaz and became part of the family lineage God selected for Jesus (Matthew 1:5).

Other examples of Gentiles accepted into Israel are female non-Jewish ancestors of Christ, Tamar and Rahab who are mentioned in Matthew 1:3,5,6.

When Jesus came to earth the first time, He clashed with the Jews because they misunderstood Him, they misunderstood the commandments and they rejected Him as Messiah. So He told them, "Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder" (Matthew 21:43-44). Not long after Jesus' death, the truth spread like wild fire to the Gentile nations. That was no coincidence. There are no coincidences with God.

God wants all of us to be saved and everything He did was for that very reason which culminated with His death on the cross for all of us not just for the Israelites.

And if you don't believe it, I have to assume you're in denial especially if you aren't from the seed of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
How am I in denial when I am telling you the truth of God? We are all chosen ones if we choose Christ and follow Him regardless of race or nation.

Romans 10:12, "For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him."

Galatians 3:26, "For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus."


You are wrong about this and I've shown you so much scripture from the Bible for you to ignore. Don't reject the truth of God that wants all mankind to be saved and not just the Israelites/Jews.

Uh, you just proved my point.
Only if you pick and choose scripture. When we study the Bible on a specific subject, we have to read everything it has to say on the subject so we can understand the message God is giving us. We also need to pray for God to show us the truth of His Word through the Holy spirit.

Pharaoh was disobedient and rejected God so his heart hardened. If we don't let God in, our hearts harden and if we continually reject Him like Pharaoh did then God lives us to the choices we made. The Holy spirit stops pleading with us to do the right thing.

I did not prove any point of yours and you know that.

Proving my point again. That is their PURPOSE as you and I both said, and that's all there is to it.
You missed the main point again. We are created to serve God. Angels too were all created to serve God and if we CHOOSE to do so we will be the most happy, contended beings. You completely ignored the point of they have freedom of choice. The angels made a choice to continue with what they were created for. Satan (who was a highly ranked angel) and his angels rejected what they were created for and chose another path and we can all see the consequences of that in this world. We too can opt out of what we are supposed to do and go do our own thing and many people do. Its all up to us because we have free will.

God asks us to choose. Jesus said to the rich young ruler, "come, take up the cross, and follow Me” (Mark 10:21).

Revelation 17:16-17
"The beast and the ten horns you saw will hate the prostitute. They will bring her to ruin and leave her naked; they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire. For God has put it into their hearts to accomplish his purpose by agreeing to hand over to the beast their royal authority, until God’s words are fulfilled."
So according to you accomplishing God's purpose is the same as God putting anger into the world leaders? This is prophecy and it will be fulfilled. However just like pharaoh these world leaders hardened their hearts and God will leave them to their choices.

God's foreknowledge does not take away our free will. Just because someone knows something doesn't mean that they're forcing people to make choices. He may know what we're going to do, but that doesn't mean He's making it happen.

That is exactly what I'm suggesting.
Well you are wrong. Satan made his own choice (because he as free will) and he will pay for those choices. Evil came from him not God.

John 8:44, "You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it."

1 John 3:8. “The devil has sinned from the beginning.”

Revelation 12:9, “That serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan.”


You should know that God has also mentioned countless times that this world was created for his people, but they disobeyed him so every other Nation was created to punish them for it.
This world was created for all mankind and nowhere does the Bible say it was created for only the Israelites/Jews. Why do other people live on earth if it was created only for the "chosen ones"? And no, every other nation was not created to punish Israel nor is this found in the Bible either. Don't add words to God's Word.

But God says he still chooses Israel which is why the thousand years will happen, followed by the destruction of this earth and the birthing of a new one.
Yes God still chooses Israel which includes both Jews and Gentiles who have the faith of Christ. There will be a new earth (which will be inhabited by the saints from every nation on earth who chose Christ as King in their hearts) but it will happen after the 1000 years where the saints/Israel will be in heaven with Christ.

Revelation 20:4 says, "And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years." Christ reigns or rules with the saved and then in Revelation 21:2 we see them coming down to earth from heaven with God in the New Jerusalem, the Holy City, "Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband."

So satan was created as an evil spirit to build up his people, in order to bring hardships unto God's chosen people via slavery, both mentally and physically. That's pretty much the plot of this "story".
In your imagination because its definitely not from the Bible is it now?

Salvation is only offered to the chosen ones.
Not in God's Word and He is author of the Bible. Don't take my word for it, here are some Bible passages that say so:

John 3:36, "He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

Mark 16:16, "He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned."

Acts 4:12, "Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

Romans 10:9-10, "that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."

Revelation 3:20, "
Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me."

There are so many passages about salvation in the Bible and none of them say its only for the Jews. It is clear salvation is for anyone who accepts Jesus and follows Him no matter what race or nation they come from.

Please Phipps, why do you think they keep being referred to as "Chosen"? Then you may ask, "Okay then why did he say the world"? Because of slavery, Israelites aren't only in one part of the world. They are everywhere, speaking in a language that isn't their own. Black people are literally the only race in the world that don't have their own natural last names.
You are making up things that are not in the Bible again. When the Bible says the world, it means the whole world that God created. By the way I am a black African and have my natural last name and I speak my native language. There are millions of us you know! You do know that Africa was not left empty when slaves were taken out of it. Jews like all other peoples around the world will be chosen if they accept Christ as the Messiah and follow Him, otherwise they are not part of Israel, they are Gentiles.

No it's not. If there are a chosen people, then how can we choose on our own? We can't.
We choose to be chosen. God shows us His truth through His Word and the Holy Spirit then we choose if we accept Christ and His precepts and if we continue to walk with Christ to the end, then we'll go to heaven and be with Him forever. This is the truth of the Bible.

No, despite it being pre-destined, this isn't for mere entertainment purposes although it is pretty amusing. This is to discipline the chosen ones, which works, since we know all the good blessings they'll get in the end. The only ones this isn't good for is anyone who isn't chosen.
God will have to be evil to create people to suffer for thousands of years, evil people revel in seeing others suffer don't they? How does it exonerate your made up god that he created billions of people to discipline the "chosen ones."

And as I said, all Israelites won't be saved either. God says only a 1/3rd of them will be saved, meanwhile the 2/3rds are getting punished with the rest of the Nations.
This is a lie and is not from the Bible. Can you please stop making up what the Bible said and stick to the truth of the Bible?!

See Deuteronomy 14:2.
These same words are used in Exodus 19:5-6 and in 1 Peter 2:9-10 in the New Testament. Peter quoted the Old Testament. These words now apply to Israel in the New Covenant which has both Jews and Gentiles who chose to follow Christ and have faith in Him. Here is what it says in 1 Peter, "But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; who once were not a people but are now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy." Isn't God great? Anyone in this world can belong to a royal priesthood, a holy nation and be God's special person. Praise Him!

I guess you just read the title, part of my post, and then posted your comment because if you pay attention, I already gave you the scripture which is Isaiah 45:7 that says he created evil alongside good. I do not appreciate that you immediately jumped to conclusions without fully reading my post.
I already explained Isaiah 45:7 above. He was talking about the light of the day and darkness of the night that He created. God has never created evil and never will nor does His Word say so. You've misunderstood the Bible so much.

Although struggling isn't fun, it's supposed to build you up which is what God is doing for his people. Just as a parent would to their child. Take away their games, yell at them, maybe whoop them, all so they can learn as a resolution. It's not fun but it's beneficial and that's all there is to it.
But according to you the suffering is supposed to build up only God's people. As for the rest who are the majority, it doesn't matter if they learn nor is any of their suffering going to build them up and even if it did it doesn't matter because they are going to be destroyed because only the "chosen ones" are going to be saved. According to your logic, God created most people for nothing. He created them to be lost.

The god you're talking about is NOT the God of the Bible I'm afraid. He is pure evil and not the kind, loving, forgiving, gracious, self sacrificing God that I love and worship.

Personally, I'm going through multiple hardships concerning my home, my self care, my family and not to mention the system in America that's meant to bring my people and I down. Obviously ain't fun but if that's what it takes to get me to turn to God, I'll go through it. I consider it to be various life lessons.
You have gravely misunderstood God and made him out to be so evil. Please get to know the true God of the Bible and you will see that He is nothing like what you think He is. He wants to save us all. The Bible teaches that God is not willing that any should perish.

1 Timothy 2:3-6, "For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time."

2 Peter 3:9, "The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance."

Titus 2:11, "For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men."
 






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Oceanic

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@Oceanic

God is talking about how He created day and night, the light of the day and the darkness of the night. Verse 6 says, "That they may know from the rising of the sun to its setting That there is none besides Me. I am the Lord, and there is no other."

This goes hand in hand with the creation story in Genesis 1:3-5 which says, "Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light. And God saw the light, that it was good; and God divided the light from the darkness. God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. So the evening and the morning were the first day." Indeed God is great and there is none like Him because only He can create and did create the earth and all that is in it.

God is not the author of evil nor is there any evil in His heart.


I'm a Bible based Christian and only interested in what God's Word says because it is the truth. The Jews in the Old Covenant were descendants of Abraham, most of them anyway. In the New Covenant the Bible made it clear that Gentiles (those who are not Jews genetically) can join Israel/the church and become Jews if they accept Jesus as their personal Saviour, submit and follow Him. In other words, all true Christians (regardless of race or nation) are now God’s spiritual Israel. They are a chosen people by choice.

The real Israel of God is "remnant according to the election of grace" (Romans 11:5). In Romans 11:17-24, Paul speaks of the olive tree that represents Israel. The branches (Jews) were broken off because of unbelief and the wild olive shoots (Gentiles) were grafted in to share in the nourishment of the tree. The natural branches could be grafted back into the tree if they accepted the conditions. God is no respecter of nations or individuals. All who turn to Him will be accepted

Paul plainly shows that God’s inclusion of Gentiles in His special people does not mean He favours Gentiles over Israelites. “For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?” (Romans 11:24).

God plays no favourites. Even those who are Israelites by physical descent have to be grafted into the tree—having been cut off due to disobedience. Thankfully, there is a way to be grafted back in—and that way is the same way available to Gentiles.

Jew and Gentile alike enjoy access to God’s promises through Christ: “There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus” (Galatians 3:28). We are all one In Christ Jesus. This is plain to understand.

The special and holy people of God, like Abraham, are obedient people—selected from all nations—who have chosen not to live by bread alone, “but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God” (Matthew 4:4). Their trust in God comes from the heart and is demonstrated by their obedient actions. God’s Spirit works in them to produce faith and obedience, making them special to God.

This is from my thread True Israel.

So those who do not accept Jesus and submit to Him are Gentiles and that includes genetic Jews or descendants of Abraham too. Spiritually they are Gentiles. They are not part of the Israel of God, the true Church.



Yes Israelites are God's chosen people and the New Testament as I've shown you above tells us who is a true Israelite. In the New Covenant being a physical descendant of Abraham does not give one an advantage. They were not chosen because they were more special than other people. God chose them for a purpose which they mainly failed at. God does not favour Jews above other people. They have to come to Christ like we all have to. Whether one is a Jew or not is not the issue. The issue is whether their hearts are circumcised and they have faith in Christ.

All the scripture you quoted whether its the Old or New Testament shows that Israel according the New Covenant inherits God’s covenant promises that were made to genetic Jews in the Old Covenant. Those who have accepted Christ become the chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God (1 Peter 2:9-10 and Exodus 19:5-6).

Paul wrote, "Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham" (Galatians 3:7).

Galatians 3:14, "that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith."

A real Jew in the sight of God is anybody, Jew or Gentile who has personal faith in Jesus Christ!


You still don't get it do you? Yes God chose Israel BUT He chose them for a purpose. He didn't just choose them willy nilly. He chose them to spread the gospel, to evangelise to the whole world which they failed at mostly. Had Israel done that which they were meant to do, Israel would be a very big nation made up of both Israelites and Gentiles. Even in the Old Covenant there were non Jews who joined Israel and God told them, “And when a stranger dwells with you and wants to keep the Passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as a native of the land. For no uncircumcised person shall eat it” (Exodus 12:48). Showing fairness for all, God continued, “One law shall be for the native-born and for the stranger who dwells among you” (verse 49). Later, God added: “You shall neither mistreat a stranger nor oppress him, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt” (Exodus 22:21).

A good example of God’s acceptance of non-Israelites in the Old Testament is found in the life of Ruth. Though a Moabite by birth (Ruth 1:1-4), she came to respect and follow God. As Ruth told Naomi, her Israelite mother-in-law, after the premature death of her husband: “Your people shall be my people, and your God, my God” (verse 16). Ruth then married an Israelite man named Boaz and became part of the family lineage God selected for Jesus (Matthew 1:5).

Other examples of Gentiles accepted into Israel are female non-Jewish ancestors of Christ, Tamar and Rahab who are mentioned in Matthew 1:3,5,6.

When Jesus came to earth the first time, He clashed with the Jews because they misunderstood Him, they misunderstood the commandments and they rejected Him as Messiah. So He told them, "Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder" (Matthew 21:43-44). Not long after Jesus' death, the truth spread like wild fire to the Gentile nations. That was no coincidence. There are no coincidences with God.

God wants all of us to be saved and everything He did was for that very reason which culminated with His death on the cross for all of us not just for the Israelites.


How am I in denial when I am telling you the truth of God? We are all chosen ones if we choose Christ and follow Him regardless of race or nation.

Romans 10:12, "For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him."

Galatians 3:26, "For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus."


You are wrong about this and I've shown you so much scripture from the Bible for you to ignore. Don't reject the truth of God that wants all mankind to be saved and not just the Israelites/Jews.


Only if you pick and choose scripture. When we study the Bible on a specific subject, we have to read everything it has to say on the subject so we can understand the message God is giving us. We also need to pray for God to show us the truth of His Word through the Holy spirit.

Pharaoh was disobedient and rejected God so his heart hardened. If we don't let God in, our hearts harden and if we continually reject Him like Pharaoh did then God lives us to the choices we made. The Holy spirit stops pleading with us to do the right thing.

I did not prove any point of yours and you know that.


You missed the main point again. We are created to serve God. Angels too were all created to serve God and if we CHOOSE to do so we will be the most happy, contended beings. You completely ignored the point of they have freedom of choice. The angels made a choice to continue with what they were created for. Satan (who was a highly ranked angel) and his angels rejected what they were created for and chose another path and we can all see the consequences of that in this world. We too can opt out of what we are supposed to do and go do our own thing and many people do. Its all up to us because we have free will.

God asks us to choose. Jesus said to the rich young ruler, "come, take up the cross, and follow Me” (Mark 10:21).


So according to you accomplishing God's purpose is the same as God putting anger into the world leaders? This is prophecy and it will be fulfilled. However just like pharaoh these world leaders hardened their hearts and God will leave them to their choices.

God's foreknowledge does not take away our free will. Just because someone knows something doesn't mean that they're forcing people to make choices. He may know what we're going to do, but that doesn't mean He's making it happen.


Well you are wrong. Satan made his own choice (because he as free will) and he will pay for those choices. Evil came from him not God.

John 8:44, "You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it."

1 John 3:8. “The devil has sinned from the beginning.”

Revelation 12:9, “That serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan.”



This world was created for all mankind and nowhere does the Bible say it was created for only the Israelites/Jews. Why do other people live on earth if it was created only for the "chosen ones"? And no, every other nation was not created to punish Israel nor is this found in the Bible either. Don't add words to God's Word.


Yes God still chooses Israel which includes both Jews and Gentiles who have the faith of Christ. There will be new a new earth (which will be inhabited by the saints from every nation on earth who chose Christ as King in their hearts) but it will happen after the 1000 years where the saints/Israel will be in heaven with Christ.

Revelation 20:4 says, "And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years." Christ reigns or rules with the saved and then in Revelation 21:2 we see them coming down to earth from heaven with God in the New Jerusalem, the Holy City, "Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband."


In your imagination because its definitely not from the Bible is it now?


Not in God's Word and He is author of the Bible. Don't take my word for it, here are some Bible passages that say so:

John 3:36, "He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

Mark 16:16, "He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned."

Acts 4:12, "Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

Romans 10:9-10, "that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."

Revelation 3:20, "
Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me."

There are so many passages about salvation in the Bible and none of them say its only for the Jews. It is clear salvation is for anyone who accepts Jesus and follows Him no matter what race or nation they come from.


You are making up things that are not in the Bible again. When the Bible says the world, it means the whole world that God created. By the way I am a black African and have my natural last name and I speak my native language. There are millions of us you know! You do know that Africa was not left empty when slaves were taken out of it. Jews like all other peoples around the world will be chosen if they accept Christ as the Messiah and follow Him, otherwise they are not part of Israel, they are Gentiles.


We choose to be chosen. God shows us His truth through His Word and the Holy Spirit then we choose if we accept Christ and His precepts and if we continue to walk with Christ to the end, then we'll go to heaven and be with Him forever. This is the truth of the Bible.


God will have to be evil to create people to suffer for thousands of years, evil people revel in seeing others suffer don't they? How does it exonerate your made up god that he created billions of people to discipline the "chosen ones."


This is a lie and is not from the Bible. Can you please stop making up what the Bible said and stick to the truth of the Bible?!


These same words are used in Exodus 19:5-6 and in 1 Peter 2:9-10 in the New Testament. Peter quoted the Old Testament. These words now apply to Israel in the New Covenant which has both Jews and Gentiles who chose to follow Christ and have faith in Him. Here is what it says in 1 Peter, "But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; who once were not a people but are now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy." Isn't God great? Anyone in this world can belong to a royal priesthood, a holy nation and be God's special person. Praise Him!


I already explained Isaiah 45:7 above. He was talking about the light of the day and darkness of the night that He created. God has never created evil and never will nor does His Word say so. You've misunderstood the Bible so much.


But according to you the suffering is supposed to build up only God's people. As for the rest who are the majority, it doesn't matter if they learn nor is any of their suffering going to build them up and even if it did it doesn't matter because they are going to be destroyed because only the "chosen ones" are going to be saved. According to your logic, God created most people for nothing. He created them to be lost.

The god you're talking about is NOT the God of the Bible I'm afraid. He is pure evil and not the kind, loving, forgiving, gracious, self sacrificing God that I love and worship.


You have gravely misunderstood God and made him out to be so evil. Please get to know the true God of the Bible and you will see that He is nothing like what you think He is. He wants to save us all. The Bible teaches that God is not willing that any should perish.

1 Timothy 2:3-6, "For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time."

2 Peter 3:9, "The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance."

Titus 2:11, "For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men."
Okay, let me respond to this:

God is talking about how He created day and night
Yes, Isaiah 45:7 already establishes that he created light and darkness, AND THEN it goes on to say he created good and evil. So I don't know why you skipped over that part.

"I form the light, and create darkness: (Okay, we got this as you said) I make peace, and create evil: (<-- And then it says that, so you cannot just solely interpret this as basic day and night) I the Lord do all these things."

God is not the author of evil nor is there any evil in His heart
As already quoted, he did create evil. I need to ask you this, when writing a story, there are obviously the good, the gray-scale, and the bad characters the author creates right? Well obviously, bad characters, as just mentioned, are supposed to have a mention in stories. So either way, he created good and evil at the end of the day. You are right about there being no evil in his heart though.

I'm a Bible based Christian
Oh no wonder we can't see eye to eye. You should do some research on how Christianity came to be. It's a very dark story.

God plays no favourites
Apparently, he does, because:

1 Peter 2:9 "But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession."

Deuteronomy 14:2 "For you are a people holy to the Lord your God, and the Lord has chosen you to be a people for his treasured possession, out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth." <--- And this doesn't strike as favoritism?

Isaiah 41:8 "But you, Israel, my servant, Jacob, whom I have chosen, the offspring of Abraham, my friend."

Galatians 3:16 "Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ." (and Christ, rather, Yahawashi, is an Israelite so that's how you know)

Psalm 105:6 "O offspring of Abraham, his servant, children of Jacob, his chosen ones!"

I can go on and on, and why? Because the Bible was only meant for those coming from Abraham's bloodline to read, not for anyone else. That's why nobody else can fully understand it or accept it for what it is. Imagine writing an intimate book to, let's say, your child and you write things only your child can get the gist of, but your child's friend ends up reading it and doesn't understand. That's basically what the Bible is to those of Abraham, and the reactions of those that aren't from his seed.

So according to you accomplishing God's purpose is the same as God putting anger into the world leaders?
Why else would someone want to destroy something if they had no hatred or anger for it? Nobody's about to go outside feeling fantastic and then think, "Hey...I should definitely get together with some people and plan on nuking an entire country!" Like that is not realistic at all.

Why do other people live on earth if it was created only for the "chosen ones"?
Didn't I mention in my last reply to you that the only reason other Nation's exist was to punish the Israelites for the sins of their forefathers? That is literally all you other Nation's are living for. If God didn't decide to make the plot this way, the only ones that would exist here on earth would be the Israelites and that's exactly how it's going to end once they're on the new earth. So my message to anyone who isn't a 1/3rd portion of Israelites is, well, enjoy your stolen inheritance while it lasts because your time is short.

We choose to be chosen.
Can't be true if God continues to say Israel is his chosen, and everyone else (including the rebellious Israelites) is just...going to be gone pretty soon. See the book of Obadiah for evidence, it's only one chapter.

This is a lie and is not from the Bible.
It isn't? Check this ---> "And it shall come to pass that in all the land,” saith the Lord, “two parts therein shall be cut off and die, but the third shall be left therein." -Zechariah 13:8

According to your logic, God created most people for nothing. He created them to be lost
I feel like I'm talking to a ghost in which my words just pass through you. I don't know how many times I've told you that the other Nation's were created to punish the Israelites for the sins of their forefathers. Here is a scripture:

Lamentation's 5:7 "Our ancestors sinned and are no more, and we bear their punishment."

Read Deuteronomy 28:46.

The god you're talking about is NOT the God of the Bible I'm afraid
He is. What? Did you expect him to be this all-time lovey dovey rainbows and sunshine being? Because yes, he is loving, but he will not hesitate to use vengeance or even hate someone, which he does, if you knew what I was talking about.

He is pure evil
I mean if I wasn't from Abraham's seed and had no chance of redemption, I'd be angry too and accuse him of being evil, much like you are. That is also how satan feels by the way, but I digress.
 






phipps

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Joined
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Messages
2,487
@Oceanic
Yes, Isaiah 45:7 already establishes that he created light and darkness, AND THEN it goes on to say he created good and evil. So I don't know why you skipped over that part.

"I form the light, and create darkness: (Okay, we got this as you said) I make peace, and create evil: (<-- And then it says that, so you cannot just solely interpret this as basic day and night) I the Lord do all these things."
God did not and never will create evil and it doesn't say so anywhere in Bible, if anyone says otherwise they are a liar. God is love, all that He does or creates is contained in the circle of His love and protection. With God is peace. Outside of Him is evil.

Psalm 92:15, "To declare that the Lord is upright; He is my rock, and there is no unrighteousness in Him."

As already quoted, he did create evil. I need to ask you this, when writing a story, there are obviously the good, the gray-scale, and the bad characters the author creates right? Well obviously, bad characters, as just mentioned, are supposed to have a mention in stories. So either way, he created good and evil at the end of the day. You are right about there being no evil in his heart though.
This is all mumbo jumbo and has nothing to do with the God of the Bible who is the true God.

Oh no wonder we can't see eye to eye. You should do some research on how Christianity came to be. It's a very dark story.
I am a Christian who believes in Jesus Christ and believe the Bible is the infallible Word of God. If anyone says anything that does not go hand in hand with the Bible, they are wrong. If we follow Christ we will be doing the right thing regardless of the history of Christianity. He is our example not the history of Christianity.

Apparently, he does, because:

1 Peter 2:9 "But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession."

Deuteronomy 14:2 "For you are a people holy to the Lord your God, and the Lord has chosen you to be a people for his treasured possession, out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth." <--- And this doesn't strike as favoritism?

Isaiah 41:8 "But you, Israel, my servant, Jacob, whom I have chosen, the offspring of Abraham, my friend."

Galatians 3:16 "Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ." (and Christ, rather, Yahawashi, is an Israelite so that's how you know)

Psalm 105:6 "O offspring of Abraham, his servant, children of Jacob, his chosen ones!"
Here you go misquoting the Bible again and clearly dismissing the progressiveness of the Bible from the Old to the New Covenant as I explained which is the truth of the Bible. The progression of the Bible shows us the progression of mankind from the creation to the end time when Jesus returns. It shows us the plan of salvation which involved the Israelites and later the Jews to preach and evangelise to the whole world. It was a blessing to be chosen. However it was always God's plan that the whole world hear about Him and become part of Israel/Judah should they choose to have a relationship with Jesus Christ and submit to Him.

For you to quote Paul in Galatians while ignoring that he is the same person I quote mostly who made it clear that all who are saved through Jesus Christ are Abraham's seed is contradictory don't you think?

And the apostle Peter who you quote is the same who said, "In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality. But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him" (Acts 10:34-35). So Peter was talking about the Israel of God in the New Covenant which has both Jews and Gentiles. And to be honest there are more Gentiles than there are genetic Jews in God's Israel sadly. Most Jews reject Christ as Messiah.

I also explained how we should study the Bible and you cannot pick and choose what passages suit your false doctrine while ignoring others. The Bible is harmonious and does not say one thing that contradicts itself. Its people who misinterpret the Bible as you clearly have.

I can go on and on, and why? Because the Bible was only meant for those coming from Abraham's bloodline to read, not for anyone else. That's why nobody else can fully understand it or accept it for what it is. Imagine writing an intimate book to, let's say, your child and you write things only your child can get the gist of, but your child's friend ends up reading it and doesn't understand. That's basically what the Bible is to those of Abraham, and the reactions of those that aren't from his seed.
Well the Bible disagrees with you as I've proved to you through scripture. Let me add that the Bible is clear we are all one in Christ if we have His faith. Here is some scripture that is plain and clear to understand:

Romans 12:5, "so we, being many, are one body in Christ, and individually members of one another."

1 Corinthians 12:13, "For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one bodywhether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or freeand have all been made to drink into one Spirit."

Ephesians 3:6,
"that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel."

Ephesians 4:4-6,
"There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all."

These are written by Paul by the way. Are you just going to ignore these passages and more where he says we are all one in Christ?

No one in this world is more important than another, not in the eyes of God. We are all important regardless of nation, race and tongue and if we choose to accept and have faith in Christ, we are chosen.

Why else would someone want to destroy something if they had no hatred or anger for it? Nobody's about to go outside feeling fantastic and then think, "Hey...I should definitely get together with some people and plan on nuking an entire country!" Like that is not realistic at all.
But why would that anger come from God? Those people will have rejected God and hardened their hearts and will be angry because of their choices that they made because they have free will.

Didn't I mention in my last reply to you that the only reason other Nation's exist was to punish the Israelites for the sins of their forefathers? That is literally all you other Nation's are living for. If God didn't decide to make the plot this way, the only ones that would exist here on earth would be the Israelites and that's exactly how it's going to end once they're on the new earth. So my message to anyone who isn't a 1/3rd portion of Israelites is, well, enjoy your stolen inheritance while it lasts because your time is short.
You are completely wrong and it is not a plot and we are not in some sinister and evil play. Not from God. As I said I believe the Bible over anyone who contradicts it and you do. Here is what the Bible says on the subject:

John 3:16-17, "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved."

1 Timothy 2:3-6, "For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time."

2 Peter 3:9, "The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance."

Titus 2:11, "For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men."


My inheritance is in Christ and was given to me freely by Grace. Its not stolen at all.

Can't be true if God continues to say Israel is his chosen, and everyone else (including the rebellious Israelites) is just...going to be gone pretty soon. See the book of Obadiah for evidence, it's only one chapter.
When we choose Christ and His precepts we are chosen and are part of Israel and no biblical text challenges that truth. Just those who misunderstand the Bible.

It isn't? Check this ---> "And it shall come to pass that in all the land,” saith the Lord, “two parts therein shall be cut off and die, but the third shall be left therein." -Zechariah 13:8
Everything you've posted in this thread is a lie. Biblically you either have the the whole truth or nothing at all. There is no middle ground where its okay to mix truth and lies. And again you are misquoting scripture and ignoring the developing nature of the Bible that proves God's plan for all of mankind.

I feel like I'm talking to a ghost in which my words just pass through you. I don't know how many times I've told you that the other Nation's were created to punish the Israelites for the sins of their forefathers. Here is a scripture:

Lamentation's 5:7 "Our ancestors sinned and are no more, and we bear their punishment."

Read Deuteronomy 28:46.
You think if you quote scripture about Israel especially from the Old Testament, that somehow it will cancel out that in the New Covenant the Israel of God is made of up of both Jew and Gentiles. It says so clearly as I've proved from the Bible.

And you also think that somehow because in your logic God created the nations to punish the Israelites that the means they've fulfilled what they were created for. These people are puppets according to you and have no free will. They are in a play and at the end god will discard them after He has used them. This is a satanic teaching and is most definitely NOT biblical and does not come from a loving God. God would not do such an evil thing.

He is. What? Did you expect him to be this all-time lovey dovey rainbows and sunshine being? Because yes, he is loving, but he will not hesitate to use vengeance or even hate someone, which he does, if you knew what I was talking about.
Your god is so evil that he created most people for the benefit of a few favourite people. He does not love them at all and apparently after they fulfil their purpose he will discard them like they are rubbish. I repeat, that is NOT the God of the Bible at all. Everything God does, He does out of love and for our betterment. He loves us all, wants to save us and live with us forever.

Its sad that you believe such lies about God.

I mean if I wasn't from Abraham's seed and had no chance of redemption, I'd be angry too and accuse him of being evil, much like you are. That is also how satan feels by the way, but I digress.
I am Abraham's seed and all those who have the faith of Jesus are Abraham's seed, so says the Word of God that He Himself made available to us so we can get to know, understand and love Him.

Romans 2:28-29 - He is not a Jew who is one outwardly.

Romans 9:6 - They are not all Israel which are of Israel.

Galatians 3:29 - They that are Christ’s are Abraham's seed.

Galatians 3:14 - That the blessings of Abraham may come on the Gentiles in Christ Jesus

Faith in Christ is not based on one’s genealogy, neither is genealogy required to become an overcomer. It is a matter of character and becoming like-minded with Christ, not the ability to trace one’s genealogy to a particular man or tribe.

Satan is guilty of his own choices, he chose to get out of God's circle of love and protection and sinned. He is angry because he put himself in the predicament he is in and knows what his end is going to be and its very bleak. That is why he wants to go to hell with as many people as possible. .

I'm done with discussion but I hope and pray that God reveals His truth to you.

God bless.
 






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What a load of Jewish supremacist propaganda. We've got this Talmudic rabbi spouting nonsense like "Blacks are the only race who don't have their real family name". What about gipsies who arrived in Spain from Hindustan 500 years ago and were given Spanish names? What about the European peoples that were conquered by the Romans and were assimilated and took on the Roman tria nomina naming custom? What a load of stupid, ignorant bullshit.

The world is not only the US and the Torah is not to be taken that literally. Hebrew the oldest language? I call that BS.
 






Cintra

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Jan 11, 2020
Messages
3,203
Topic title: God already planned our lives, and we are merely just going along with the script. What say you?
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I know a middleaged christian street preacher whose life is a complete mess because he's got a "fatalist" streak and entrusts God to run his life without bothering to lift a finger to help himself.
As a result he's got two failed marriages behind him, he's been hauled up court twice for not paying his council tax, and has had his electricity and phone cut off at various times for not paying his bills.
Examples of his brainless approach-
1- i was sitting on a bench chatting to him and as we parted I said "shall we arrange to meet for another chat next week?" to which he replied "No, lets leave it to God. if we bump into each other we'll know it's God's will".
2- Another time he invited me to cycle back to his place with him for tea, it was dark but he had no lights on his bike because his attitude was "If I get hit by a car it'll be God's will".
You couldn't make it up.
I read the riot act to him and told him to get some control and organisation into his friggin life, and quoted this verse at him-
"For God did not give us a spirit of timidity, but a spirit of power, of love and of selfdiscipline" (2 Tim 1:7)
Did it have any effect on his life, oh teacher man?
Or did your words fall on stoney ground?
 






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