Getting tangled in Hebrew Roots?!

TokiEl

Superstar
Joined
Dec 13, 2017
Messages
5,216
How about calling on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, The Son of David who is the Jewish Messiah who is also the God of the Gentiles who will bring peace and mercy everlasting. We do not cultivate we are called and born again, you do not join, we were predestined beforehand by God's purpose that we be conformed to the image of Christ....complete conformity.
Why not shout for joy on the Name above all names and sing hallelujah with bended knees. In front of Jesus while we throw our crowns at the feet of the elders hoping not to hit them. They are probably gold crowns and so pretty heavy... We are like lambs led to slaughter and not us as we rapture...outta here. Hallelujah.



I pondered how to respond... and we agreed this was fine.
 






Lefort3000

Rookie
Joined
Apr 19, 2020
Messages
48
This view regarding the Hebrew Roots movement is based off of Paulinism. Many Christians place Paul as essentially a translator for what Jesus said in the Gospels. In other words, they put his words before Jesus.

If you read Jesus's Gospels alone, or even the NT apart from the Pauline epistles, you'll find a different view on what they teach. They are NOT sola fida (Faith alone), like what some verses in Pauline epistles seem to explicitly indicate.

Not only this, but Paul's epistles directly contradict Jesus's teachings in the Gospels and Revelations.

Jesus Words Only.com has a lot of great articles on this. Some examples:



Luke (the writer of the Gospel of Luke along with Acts) in Acts believed that Paul was still a follower of the Law (of the OT), as that's why he recorded Paul saying this:

Acts 21:14 However, I admit that I worship the God of our ancestors as a follower of the Way, which they call a sect. I believe everything that is in accordance with the Law and that is written in the Prophets



However, as you can read in Paul's epistles, he says, in a very convoluted way, that we are to no longer follow the Old Testament law, and this is what mainstream Christianity teaches today.
This clearly contrasts with what Jesus said in Matthew 5:17-19, as well as in Luke 16:

Luke 16:17 "But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one stroke of a letter of the Law to fail.

Matthew 5: 17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

And also: Matthew 23: 23 Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2 “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. 4 They tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.





Paul also said it is ok if we eat meat sacrificed to idols out of ignorance, and that we should willingly try and remain ignorant to whether the food we eat was sacrificed to idols, whereas Jesus said we can't eat them at all in Revelation, and in Acts the council at Jerusalem said we weren't supposed to either.




Jesus also praised the church of Ephesus in Revelation for rejecting false prophets, and this is the same church that Paul said rejected him:
Paul claimed to be an apostle in his letter to the Ephesians (Ephesians 1:1). Ephesus was the largest city of Proconsular Asia -- modern Western Turkey. However, later on, in Paul's second letter to Timothy, Paul declared that "all those in Asia have turned away from me" (2 Timothy 1:15).
In Acts 19, Luke tells us the Ephesian synagogue where Paul taught for three months and where there were substantial converts to Christ finally expelled Paul.
Acts 19: 8 Paul entered the synagogue and spoke boldly there for three months, arguing persuasively about the kingdom of God. 9 But some of them became obstinate; they refused to believe and publicly maligned the Way. So Paul left them. He took the disciples with him and had discussions daily in the lecture hall of Tyrannus.

Now, what did Jesus say to the Ephesians in Revelation? 2 “To the angel[a] of the church in Ephesus write: These are the words of him who holds the seven stars in his right hand and walks among the seven golden lampstands. 2 I know your deeds, your hard work and your perseverance. I know that you cannot tolerate wicked people, that you have tested those who claim to be apostles but are not, and have found them false."

If Jesus was on Paul's side, why would He praise the church that had rejected Paul?
 






Lyfe

Veteran
Joined
May 11, 2020
Messages
623
I have encountered many judaizers, hebrew roots proponents, and sacred namers. I believe this end times influence and movement is no doubt the work of satan and is a form of spiritual deception that ultimately seeks to subtly and over time lead one back under the yoke of the law of Moses. One lady I knew first made a big deal about Jesus name, then she made a big fuss about how Christians dont follow messiah by keeping the feasts, then after a while she began to flat out deny Paul altogether and disassociated from all her Christian friends and started to keep the company of jewiish people who followed Torah even though they had no belief in Jesus.
 






Joined
Jun 1, 2018
Messages
1,168
This view regarding the Hebrew Roots movement is based off of Paulinism. Many Christians place Paul as essentially a translator for what Jesus said in the Gospels. In other words, they put his words before Jesus.

If you read Jesus's Gospels alone, or even the NT apart from the Pauline epistles, you'll find a different view on what they teach. They are NOT sola fida (Faith alone), like what some verses in Pauline epistles seem to explicitly indicate.

Not only this, but Paul's epistles directly contradict Jesus's teachings in the Gospels and Revelations.

Jesus Words Only.com has a lot of great articles on this. Some examples:



Luke (the writer of the Gospel of Luke along with Acts) in Acts believed that Paul was still a follower of the Law (of the OT), as that's why he recorded Paul saying this:

Acts 21:14 However, I admit that I worship the God of our ancestors as a follower of the Way, which they call a sect. I believe everything that is in accordance with the Law and that is written in the Prophets



However, as you can read in Paul's epistles, he says, in a very convoluted way, that we are to no longer follow the Old Testament law, and this is what mainstream Christianity teaches today.
This clearly contrasts with what Jesus said in Matthew 5:17-19, as well as in Luke 16:

Luke 16:17 "But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one stroke of a letter of the Law to fail.

Matthew 5: 17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

And also: Matthew 23: 23 Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2 “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. 4 They tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.





Paul also said it is ok if we eat meat sacrificed to idols out of ignorance, and that we should willingly try and remain ignorant to whether the food we eat was sacrificed to idols, whereas Jesus said we can't eat them at all in Revelation, and in Acts the council at Jerusalem said we weren't supposed to either.




Jesus also praised the church of Ephesus in Revelation for rejecting false prophets, and this is the same church that Paul said rejected him:
Paul claimed to be an apostle in his letter to the Ephesians (Ephesians 1:1). Ephesus was the largest city of Proconsular Asia -- modern Western Turkey. However, later on, in Paul's second letter to Timothy, Paul declared that "all those in Asia have turned away from me" (2 Timothy 1:15).
In Acts 19, Luke tells us the Ephesian synagogue where Paul taught for three months and where there were substantial converts to Christ finally expelled Paul.
Acts 19: 8 Paul entered the synagogue and spoke boldly there for three months, arguing persuasively about the kingdom of God. 9 But some of them became obstinate; they refused to believe and publicly maligned the Way. So Paul left them. He took the disciples with him and had discussions daily in the lecture hall of Tyrannus.

Now, what did Jesus say to the Ephesians in Revelation? 2 “To the angel[a] of the church in Ephesus write: These are the words of him who holds the seven stars in his right hand and walks among the seven golden lampstands. 2 I know your deeds, your hard work and your perseverance. I know that you cannot tolerate wicked people, that you have tested those who claim to be apostles but are not, and have found them false."

If Jesus was on Paul's side, why would He praise the church that had rejected Paul?
Nonsense.
 






Lefort3000

Rookie
Joined
Apr 19, 2020
Messages
48
I have encountered many judaizers, hebrew roots proponents, and sacred namers. I believe this end times influence and movement is no doubt the work of satan and is a form of spiritual deception that ultimately seeks to subtly and over time lead one back under the yoke of the law of Moses. One lady I knew first made a big deal about Jesus name, then she made a big fuss about how Christians dont follow messiah by keeping the feasts, then after a while she began to flat out deny Paul altogether and disassociated from all her Christian friends and started to keep the company of jewiish people who followed Torah even though they had no belief in Jesus.
You can look at what I wrote and see that Paul contradicts Jesus at certain points.
 






Red Sky at Morning

Superstar
Joined
Mar 15, 2017
Messages
9,681
You can look at what I wrote and see that Paul contradicts Jesus at certain points.
I can offer a whole series on the Kingdom which looks at the big picture and clearly sets out the transition from the Gospel of the Kingdom to the Gospel of Grace (and why).

Anyone who has wrestled with questions like those raised above may find it very worthwhile.

 






phipps

Star
Joined
Dec 27, 2017
Messages
1,867
You can look at what I wrote and see that Paul contradicts Jesus at certain points.
Paul never contradicts Jesus at all. The whole Bible does not contradict itself unless one misinterprets it. And Paul is very misunderstood.
 






Lefort3000

Rookie
Joined
Apr 19, 2020
Messages
48
I can offer a whole series on the Kingdom which looks at the big picture and clearly sets out the transition from the Gospel of the Kingdom to the Gospel of Grace (and why).

Anyone who has wrestled with questions like those raised above may find it very worthwhile.

It would make more sense for you to watch that and respond to it in context to what I said. Ill still watch it though.
 






Lefort3000

Rookie
Joined
Apr 19, 2020
Messages
48
Paul never contradicts Jesus at all. The whole Bible does not contradict itself unless one misinterprets it. And Paul is very misunderstood.
I provided evidence for contradictions. You didnt provide any rebuttal evidence. You havent proven anything.
 






phipps

Star
Joined
Dec 27, 2017
Messages
1,867
I provided evidence for contradictions. You didnt provide any rebuttal evidence. You havent proven anything.
I don't have to prove anything. If you understood how the Bible came to be, who inspired it and why, you would never say, some of Paul's writings contradict the Bible. 2 Timothy 3:16 tells us that "All scripture is inspired by God and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: that many of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works." Matthew 24:35 tells us God's word is eternal and Psalm 119:160 tells us that God's Word is true from the beginning. The Bible is the Word of God, it is God and it His message to us (John 1:1-3, 14).

Peter says in 2 Peter 3:15-16, "and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures."

Peter said that Paul wrote on difficult things but the problem wasn't with his writings. The problem was with the readers. Unstable, untaught people who twist the writings of Paul and I'm sure that would include discrediting his writings. Some people discredit Daniel. They say that it was all manufactured and, you know, critics of the Bible have been around for a long time.

Once we understand that the Bible does not contradict itself, we should pray and ask God to help us understand Paul's writings. Not try and discredit them.
 






Resistor

Rookie
Joined
May 22, 2020
Messages
68
I don't have to prove anything. If you understood how the Bible came to be, who inspired it and why, you would never say, some of Paul's writings contradict the Bible. 2 Timothy 3:16 tells us that "All scripture is inspired by God and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: that many of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works." Matthew 24:35 tells us God's word is eternal and Psalm 119:160 tells us that God's Word is true from the beginning. The Bible is the Word of God, it is God and it His message to us (John 1:1-3, 14).

Peter says in 2 Peter 3:15-16, "and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures."

Peter said that Paul wrote on difficult things but the problem wasn't with his writings. The problem was with the readers. Unstable, untaught people who twist the writings of Paul and I'm sure that would include discrediting his writings. Some people discredit Daniel. They say that it was all manufactured and, you know, critics of the Bible have been around for a long time.

Once we understand that the Bible does not contradict itself, we should pray and ask God to help us understand Paul's writings. Not try and discredit them.
You could use that argument for anything
 






Yellowbunzz tasty

Established
Joined
Dec 30, 2019
Messages
157
Hey guys please do checkout my new thread

 






Lefort3000

Rookie
Joined
Apr 19, 2020
Messages
48
I don't have to prove anything. If you understood how the Bible came to be, who inspired it and why, you would never say, some of Paul's writings contradict the Bible. 2 Timothy 3:16 tells us that "All scripture is inspired by God and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: that many of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works." Matthew 24:35 tells us God's word is eternal and Psalm 119:160 tells us that God's Word is true from the beginning. The Bible is the Word of God, it is God and it His message to us (John 1:1-3, 14).

Peter says in 2 Peter 3:15-16, "and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures."

Peter said that Paul wrote on difficult things but the problem wasn't with his writings. The problem was with the readers. Unstable, untaught people who twist the writings of Paul and I'm sure that would include discrediting his writings. Some people discredit Daniel. They say that it was all manufactured and, you know, critics of the Bible have been around for a long time.

Once we understand that the Bible does not contradict itself, we should pray and ask God to help us understand Paul's writings. Not try and discredit them.
That first verse you used is a Pauline verse. You're using Paul saying "all Scripture is inspired" as proof that his works are Scripture and inspired. lol. The others do not at all directly prove anything about Paul. You're saying these say "if they're in the Bible, they're inspired, when thats not the case".

That 2 Peter verse is the only other witness to Paul outside of Acts, and perhaps the only secondary witness to Paul thats positive in the Bible.

You use circular logic and unsubstantiated presuppositions.
 






phipps

Star
Joined
Dec 27, 2017
Messages
1,867
That first verse you used is a Pauline verse. You're using Paul saying "all Scripture is inspired" as proof that his works are Scripture and inspired. lol. The others do not at all directly prove anything about Paul. You're saying these say "if they're in the Bible, they're inspired, when thats not the case".

That 2 Peter verse is the only other witness to Paul outside of Acts, and perhaps the only secondary witness to Paul thats positive in the Bible.

You use circular logic and unsubstantiated presuppositions.
That first verse you used is a Pauline verse. You're using Paul saying "all Scripture is inspired" as proof that his works are Scripture and inspired. lol. The others do not at all directly prove anything about Paul. You're saying these say "if they're in the Bible, they're inspired, when thats not the case".
The entire Bible is not here because of humans, it exists because of God. It is inspired by God, it is God's Word and it is God, whether you believe it or not. But I see you're not disproving that, you're just saying "that's not the case." That doesn't prove much does it?

Yes I used a verse that Paul wrote because he wrote most of the New Testament, do you think that is a coincidence? That God would let that happen if Paul contradicted Him on anything? If you think that, then you really have not understood God at all. There is nothing in the Bible that is there by coincidence. It is all there because God wanted it to be "...and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: that many of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works." Remember Peter said the problem of those who don't understand Paul's writings is with them not Paul's writings. God can through the Holy Spirit help us understand Paul's writings, if we ask Him genuinely.

That 2 Peter verse is the only other witness to Paul outside of Acts, and perhaps the only secondary witness to Paul thats positive in the Bible.
I don't know if the verse is the only other witness to Paul outside of Acts, but there were many witnesses, they were just not written of. But does that mean this verse doesn't count? So not only do you discredit Paul, you are discrediting Peter too? Clearly you don't believe what he said about Paul's writings too. When a person starts questioning the truth of the Bible in certain parts, then they heading down a dangerous road. Because the Bible harmonises, they soon start dismissing other parts of the Bible too. You either believe the entire Bible or you don't.

You use circular logic and unsubstantiated presuppositions.
That is you, not me. I know because I trust God that everything in His Word is the truth and nothing but or it wouldn't be in the Bible.

John 17:17 says, "Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth." Thy Word is the entire Bible.
 






Last edited:

Lefort3000

Rookie
Joined
Apr 19, 2020
Messages
48
The entire Bible is not here because of humans, it exists because of God. It is inspired by God, it is God's Word and it is God, whether you believe it or not. But I see you're not disproving that, you're just saying "that's not the case." That doesn't prove much does it?

Yes I used a verse that Paul wrote because he wrote most of the New Testament, do you think that is a coincidence? That God would let that happen if Paul contradicted Him on anything? If you think that, then you really have not understood God at all. There is nothing in the Bible that is there by coincidence. It is all there because God wanted it to be "...and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: that many of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works." Remember Peter said the problem of those who don't understand Paul's writings is with them not Paul's writings. God can through the Holy Spirit help us understand Paul's writings, if we ask Him genuinely.



I don't know if the verse is the only other witness to Paul outside of Acts, but there were many witnesses, they were just not written of. But does that mean this verse doesn't count? So not only do you discredit Paul, you are discrediting Peter too? Clearly you don't believe what he said about Paul's writings too. When a person starts questioning the truth of the Bible in certain parts, then they heading down a dangerous road. Because the Bible harmonises, they soon start dismissing other parts of the Bible too. You either believe the entire Bible or you don't.



That is you, not me. I know because I trust God that everything in His Word is the truth and nothing but or it wouldn't be in the Bible.

John 17:17 says, "Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth." Thy Word is the entire Bible.
No you're definitely using circular reasoning. You're not providing any proof as to why the 66 books of the Modern Protestant Bible are all inspired.

3 PROOFS why this is flawed, as opposed to your presuppositons:

1) No where in the Bible is this is the mentioned. The reason how we have secondary testimonies for the Law and Prophets (Pentauach and Major/minor Prophet OT books), is because Jesus in the Gospels uses them, as well as the rest of the NT writers. The reason we believe those, is because the Church Fathers, tradition, and now manuscript evidence points to these as the teachings of Jesus.

2) You're logic that the 66 books we have now is not logically sound either. Many people throughout history only had access to certain Gospels, writings, and Biblical books. Now logical consistency there based on your argument.

3) There was a OT King of Judea or Israel (cant remember which), who instituted Mosaic law reform due to finding a Mosaic law book (believed to be Deuteronomy) that had been lost, causing Israel to lose there way. This is in the Bible, Chronicles I believe.


If you read the Acts account of Paul, you can see that the writer Luke appeared to leave hints in there that Paul was a false apostle. His epistle teachings directly contradict with the ruling at the Jerusalem council in Acts 15, and Peter questioned him in Acts 21 about him being an apostate from the Law, which he denies, however his epistles say otherwise.

Majority of scholars also believe 2nd Peter isnt Petrine in authorship.
 






phipps

Star
Joined
Dec 27, 2017
Messages
1,867
No you're definitely using circular reasoning. You're not providing any proof as to why the 66 books of the Modern Protestant Bible are all inspired.

3 PROOFS why this is flawed, as opposed to your presuppositons:

1) No where in the Bible is this is the mentioned. The reason how we have secondary testimonies for the Law and Prophets (Pentauach and Major/minor Prophet OT books), is because Jesus in the Gospels uses them, as well as the rest of the NT writers. The reason we believe those, is because the Church Fathers, tradition, and now manuscript evidence points to these as the teachings of Jesus.

2) You're logic that the 66 books we have now is not logically sound either. Many people throughout history only had access to certain Gospels, writings, and Biblical books. Now logical consistency there based on your argument.

3) There was a OT King of Judea or Israel (cant remember which), who instituted Mosaic law reform due to finding a Mosaic law book (believed to be Deuteronomy) that had been lost, causing Israel to lose there way. This is in the Bible, Chronicles I believe.


If you read the Acts account of Paul, you can see that the writer Luke appeared to leave hints in there that Paul was a false apostle. His epistle teachings directly contradict with the ruling at the Jerusalem council in Acts 15, and Peter questioned him in Acts 21 about him being an apostate from the Law, which he denies, however his epistles say otherwise.

Majority of scholars also believe 2nd Peter isnt Petrine in authorship.
I'm ending this here. You are very wrong and don't know what you're talking about although you think you do sadly. I pray that God reveals the truth to you. I know that the whole Bible is the Word of God and message of God to us. There are no contradictions and I pray that you stop going further down this very dangerous road. If you don't believe one part, very soon you won't believe all of it if you don't turn back on the right path. Dismissing God's chosen people, in this case case Paul, who was chosen to write most of the New Testament is you dismissing God too. This is about our eternal destinies don't forget. Bye and God bless.
 






A Freeman

Star
Joined
Nov 11, 2019
Messages
1,197
On the subject of Paul, who said "it is not 'I' that lives, but Christ Who lives in me" (Gal. 2:20), from the disciple Peter:-

2 Peter 3:10-18
3:10 But The Day of The Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the Earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
3:11 [Seeing] then [that] all these things shall be dissolved, what manner [of persons] ought ye to be in [all] holy conversation and Godliness,
3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of The Day of God, wherein the "heavens" being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
3:13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new Earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
3:14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found by Him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
3:15 And account [that] the longsuffering of our Lord [is] salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the Wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
3:16 As also in all [his] epistles (letters), speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as [they do] also the other Scriptures, unto their OWN destruction.
3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know [these things] before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own steadfastness.
3:18 But grow in grace, and [in] the Knowledge of our Lord and Christ the Saviour. To him [be] glory both now and for ever. Amen.

Paul is often misquoted and misunderstood, particularly by so-called Christians, who misinterpret the letters of Paul to give them the freedom to sin (break The Law) with impunity.

Paul, like his Master/Teacher Christ, did NOT do away with The Law (Matt. 5:17:20), which is why Paul plainly stated:

1) he himself was keeping The Law (Rom. 7:25),
2) that The Law is holy, just and good (Rom. 7:12),
3) that he was establishing The Law wherever he went (Rom. 3:31), and
4) that only DOERS of The Law would be justified (Rom. 2:13).
 






Top