George Floyd/Protests/Peace/Riots/Chaos

[lightseeker]

Floyd's injuries and the video evidence prove it was an assault.

handcuffs, hit his face on the car from struggling, and had scraped shoulders from when he fell down dont prove its an assault. Not having any injuries caused by the restraint, and was carried out in a careful way, to not even leave a mark with the restraint proves it was not an assault

So restraining someone means kneeing them into the pavement for 9 minutes, then when that person dies, you claim it was for *their* safety? Let me put it in a more simple way, how are you in such denial?

It clearly was, it caused him no injury, the restraint that is, other than the superficial and non life threatening scrapes to the front of the shoulders I guess? I really cant tell if youre just trolling and arguing in bad faith. These are not logically connected points. Like you want to just dump out posts so its harder to discern the real evidence posted

Why do you give a shit about some goofy thug cop? Thousands more are going to get away with brutality and literal crimes today. The Floyd case was an important symbolic victory, but there's so much disparity in how the courts operate. And those courts couldn't care less about changing.

I have no idea whether chauvin is a good or bad person. I dont like seeing everyone dog pile on some random guy with an emotional story that is contradicted by all medical and scientific evidence. Its not a good precedent, trial by media and mob violence. Truth SHOULD still be the central value regarding justice, not just what people thought was happening at first, not what people were chanting in a mob, not what the media reported to make people click on the story

Don't let your anxiety control you. There's still plenty of drug-addicted poor people for you to point your finger at. There's still plenty of people out there you can blame for their own victimization.

Stupid and irrelevent. Try to clean up your argument

 

[Faker He-Man]

That's not how I understand it, however, its irrelavent. If the carotid artery is being obstructed, the person goes unconscious in a couple heartbeats. That's obviously not what happened.

Yeah, you don’t understand it at all actually. How do you know that’s not what happened? One second he was crying out, the next he was completely unresponsive. I would say either his knee finally found the right spot, or it wasn’t compressed enough to cause a quick loss of consciousness. It can also happen gradually depending on how restricted the artery is / how close to critical the blood flow is. Then after he lost consciousness, FOUR MORE merciless minutes passed with a knee to the back/neck area.

 

[lightseeker]

Yeah, you don’t understand it at all actually. How do you know that’s not what happened? One second he was crying out, the next he was completely unresponsive

Because
1.the knee wasnt on his neck
2. it was on him for several minutes without occluding the carotid arteries
3. the carotid arteries cant be obstructed from the back. They are on the sides of the neck. youre just wrong about that. the jugulars run with the common carotid artery too, you dont seem to know anything about this.
4. that wasnt the cause of death as stated by the medical examiner. its just speculation from you

 

[Faker He-Man]

Because 3. the carotid arteries cant be obstructed from the back. They are on the sides of the neck. youre just wrong about that

Source? I don’t think you have any clue what you’re talking about. You’re pulling this out of thin air obviously.

 

[Faker He-Man]

Because
1.the knee wasnt on his neck
2. it was on him for several minutes without occluding the carotid arteries
3. the carotid arteries cant be obstructed from the back. They are on the sides of the neck. youre just wrong about that. the jugulars run with the common carotid artery too, you dont seem to know anything about this.

I would say either his knee finally found the right spot, or the artery wasn’t compressed enough to cause a quick loss of consciousness. It can also happen gradually depending on how restricted the artery is / how close to critical the blood flow is.

Read and learn (too much to ask perhaps?): https://breakingmuscle.com/fitness/the-physiology-of-a-rear-naked-choke-or-what-happens-when-you-get-choked-out

 

[lightseeker]

Source? I don’t think you have any clue what you’re talking about. You’re pulling this out of thin air obviously.

I would say either his knee finally found the right spot, or the artery wasn’t compressed enough to cause a quick loss of consciousness. It can also happen gradually depending on how restricted the artery is / how close to critical the blood flow is.

Ok but that’s not what caused his death according to the autopsy. Nor did any doctor even mention that. So it’s just your own speculation, clearly not backed up by any part of the case

 

[lightseeker]

Read and learn (too much to ask perhaps?): https://breakingmuscle.com/fitness/the-physiology-of-a-rear-naked-choke-or-what-happens-when-you-get-choked-out

I didn't see any indication that the back of the neck is the target of the choke. This picture from the article the guys not even touching the back of the neck. I fail to see how this proves your point

 

[Faker He-Man]

Find some better photos then. I would not have chosen those photos for the article. There are two ways to apply it. When you see them pushing the head forward from behind, they are trying to cut off airways. When you see them applying pressure with the rear forearm at the back of the lower neck on one side, they are attempting to compress the carotid artery.

 

[lightseeker]

When you see them applying pressure with the rear forearm at the back of the lower neck on one side, they are attempting to compress the carotid artery.

There was no mention of that in the article. Nor does it make any sense. The lower back of the neck is a large muscle, the trapezoid. It would be quite safe to apply pressure to this muscle without the risk of choking or restricting blood. The forward sides of the neck is where the arteries are.

 

[Faker He-Man]

There was no mention of that in the article. Nor does it make any sense. The lower back of the neck is a large muscle, the trapezoid. It would be quite safe to apply pressure to this muscle without the risk of choking or restricting blood. The forward sides of the neck is where the arteries are.

The pressure is applied in the lower posterior triangle area, just slightly in front of the trapezius. If the pressure is applied from a rear/lateral direction, it constricts that rear/lateral portion of the carotid sheath which contains the carotid artery.

 

[lightseeker]

The pressure is applied in the lower posterior triangle area, just slightly in front of the trapezius. If the pressure is applied from a rear/lateral direction, it constricts that rear/lateral portion of the carotid sheath which contains the carotid artery.

There was no evidence for that in the article you linked. Want to try again?
Second, both arteries need to be occluded to cut off blood supply, otherwise the other one will continue to supply blood to the brain

And besides, this is just faker he man theory. None of this was relavent in the case. I think I'll stick with the medical examiner's report that says he died because of hypertension, severe arteriosclerosis, fentynol and recent meth use which complicated a police restraint leading to cardiopulminary arrest

 

[justjess]

1. He was saying he couldnt breath while clearly and visibly breathing deeply. He had this sensation due to his medical problems, not the restraint. The fact that he was saying this would lead a rational cop to believe they were just empty words, if someone is breathing deeply right before your eyes and saying they cant breath for several minutes, when you can't not breath for that long. Again, there was no medical evidence of asphyxia or a lack of oxygen causing injury or death. That's not what caused his death according to the medical examiner
2.A person who is on drugs in a delerium and visibly passes out is a threat to themselves and others until strapped onto a stretcher or given a chemical sedative like ketamine


That's not how I understand it, however, its irrelavent. If the carotid artery is being obstructed, the person goes unconscious in a couple heartbeats. That's obviously not what happened.

Says who? Lol. Jesus...
1) a passed out and handcuffed man does not meet the criteria for a threat used to justify restraints of any sort
2) have you ever been unable to breathe before? You can be unable to breathe and LOOK fine. Your ignoring all common sense here because you want this man to walk for whatever reason - if you have to do mental gymnastics to justify something that’s usually a sign there is a problem.

 

[lightseeker]

1) a passed out and handcuffed man does not meet the criteria for a threat used to justify restraints of any sort

Yeah not on the bystander video. But taking the whole scenario into account, yeah he does
1.He was erratic and delierius, and threw himself out of a car onto the road. A person like that who passes out is still a threat
2. The restraint caused him no injury so why would they not continue it

2) have you ever been unable to breathe before? You can be unable to breathe and LOOK fine. Your ignoring all common sense here because you want this man to walk for whatever reason - if you have to do mental gymnastics to justify something that’s usually a sign there is a problem.

Yes I have. It is due to causes other than a direct airway obstruction. Hence the officer did not cause his death

Your ignoring all common sense here because you want this man to walk for whatever reason - if you have to do mental gymnastics to justify something that’s usually a sign there is a problem.

I really dont think so. I am looking at the evidence and it says he's not guilty. he didn't cause his death. its really that simple

 

[justjess]

There was no evidence for that in the article you linked. Want to try again?
Second, both arteries need to be occluded to cut off blood supply, otherwise the other one will continue to supply blood to the brain

And besides, this is just faker he man theory. None of this was relavent in the case. I think I'll stick with the medical examiner's report that says he died because of hypertension, severe arteriosclerosis, fentynol and recent meth use which complicated a police restraint leading to cardiopulminary arrest

Would any of those things have killed him that second had he not been restrained in that way? No. Therefore they are not the cause and they are irrelevant outside of noting contributing factors. Yes, a healthier person probably would have survived that. Floyd wasn’t a healthier person and the altercation killed him. Therefore Chauvin killed him. It is a crime because this wasn’t routine procedure. Had Chauvin slapped some cuffs on him in a routine way and Floyd just dropped dead from a panic attack or something we wouldn’t be having this conversation.

 

[The Zone]

Eh, my take is anyone who watched the video saw something which could have been prevented and people tried to warn him. I am not anti cop by any means, but that whole scene was unnecessary and sad. While I do not like what they have turned this into, it is hard for me to say anything then I would have been more aggressive in getting the cops attention even if it took them putting me in cuffs. The dude was taxed being on the ground and there was no reason to keep someone not moving under a knee.

 

[justjess]

Yeah not on the bystander video. But taking the whole scenario into account, yeah he does
1.He was erratic and delierius, and threw himself out of a car onto the road. A person like that who passes out is still a threat
2. The restraint caused him no injury so why would they not continue it

Yes I have. It is due to causes other than a direct airway obstruction. Hence the officer did not cause his death

I really dont think so. I am looking at the evidence and it says he's not guilty. he didn't cause his death. its really that simple

No they aren’t... despite your “feeling” they they are still a threat while passed out and handcuffed they are not in fact a current threat that would justify or necessitate continuing to restrain them at that point. This is where you go completely off the rails imo. You can make an argument either way up until that point but past that point there is no valid argument for the continuation of restraint. His police colleagues agreed. My crisis and restraint training agrees. Your “feeling” is irrelevant when it contradicts all accepted fact and protocol for these types of situations.

 

[Faker He-Man]

There was no evidence for that in the article you linked. Want to try again?
Second, both arteries need to be occluded to cut off blood supply, otherwise the other one will continue to supply blood to the brain

And besides, this is just faker he man theory. None of this was relavent in the case. I think I'll stick with the medical examiner's report that says he died because of hypertension, severe arteriosclerosis, fentynol and recent meth use which complicated a police restraint leading to cardiopulminary arrest

Official cause of death, verbatim from Dr Andrew Baker who performed the autopsy: “cardiopulmonary arrest complicating law enforcement subdual, restraint, and neck compression."

 

[lightseeker]

Therefore Chauvin killed him.

No

Would any of those things have killed him that second had he not been restrained in that way? No. Therefore they are not the cause and they are irrelevant outside of noting contributing factors.

But none of Chauvins actions directly caused those results. The medical examiner said he died from the stress because his heart couldnt take it. NOT that the knee was pressed too hard. NOT that the position he was in was deadly. NOT that anything the cops directly did killed him. He was a person who was medically incapable of surviving that encounter. Is that murder? Its not

Yes, a healthier person probably would have survived that.

Exactly

It is a crime because this wasn’t routine procedure.

Yes it was. It was literally in the training manual and the use of force assessment

Had Chauvin slapped some cuffs on him in a routine way and Floyd just dropped dead from a panic attack or something we wouldn’t be having this conversation.

That's more or less what happened, with two additional factors - he resisted like crazy and had to be restrained. The ambulance took 10 minutes to get there, when they would normally take 3.

This is not murder. Its a tragedy, its an unfortunate collusion of circumstance. Murder 2 is the crime charged for shooting a gun into a crowd and killing someone, or driving on the wrong side of the lane. Chauvin had no indication that using his training, using a lower level of force that he was permitted, would lead to his heart just stopping because it was enlarged and the arteries were clogged and he had fentynol pills in his mouth at the time. No

 

[lightseeker]

Official cause of death, verbatim from Dr Andrew Baker who performed the autopsy: “cardiopulmonary arrest complicating law enforcement subdual, restraint, and neck compression."

Not verbatim, you left out the second line where it says it was caused by hypertension, severe arteriosclerosis, fentynol and recent meth use. COMPLICATING means , occuring during the time of, the cardiopulminary arrest complicated the law enforcement restraint. Its not saying that the restraint killed him. Baker was clear about that.

Jesus man everyone has a million opinions but nobody knows wtf theyre talking about. You guys would sentence someone to prison for nothing

 

[lightseeker]

No they aren’t... despite your “feeling” they they are still a threat while passed out and handcuffed they are not in fact a current threat that would justify or necessitate continuing to restrain them at that point. This is where you go completely off the rails imo. You can make an argument either way up until that point but past that point there is no valid argument for the continuation of restraint. His police colleagues agreed. My crisis and restraint training agrees. Your “feeling” is irrelevant when it contradicts all accepted fact and protocol for these types of situations.

The restraint caused him no injury so its irelevent