Finding the good in Agnosticism - an honest look at faith and doubt

billy t

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Actually, I always considered him a bit of an egomaniac. Buddha had much less attitude.

"Don't get attached to what I say, don't get attached to any doctrine, to what I preach; don't get attached to my personality. These are all just fingers pointing to the moon. Forget me, don't start worshiping me; just look at the moon. And once you have looked at the moon, I don't matter at all." -- Buddha

Krishna, on the other hand, made no bones about who he was/Is.

"When goodness grows weak,
When evil increases,
I make myself a body.
In every age I come back
To deliver the holy,
To destroy the sin of the sinner,
To establish righteousness."

Krishna, Bhagavad Gita


Looks like Krishna, Buddha, and Jesus could all be the same guy! I do realize that's impossible for you to fathom... :)
Such a philosophy suggests that nobody knows the truth. Hence truth is relative and there is no good or bad.

The idea that Krishna, Buddha and Jesus are one is a new age philosophy. This is the same belief that Alice Bailey came with. She speaks about how the so called universal Christ will return in the form of Maitreya which is likely the anti-Christ himself. All the above is new age nonsense. Any Muslim or Christian who know their stuff can sniff new agey ideas from a mile away.

If someone claims that God exists yet did not give us any purpose are attributing foolishness to God.

Imagine an employer interviewed 300 potential workers and gave 20 of them the job then on the first day he didn't tell any of them what to do. What would you say about such an employer? You would say he is an idiot for employing people and not telling them what their job is. What will the workers do? They will just sit in the lunch room all day drinking coffee and watching TV.

To say that nobody knows the truth is to say that God created human beings on earth and didn't tell them what do do. In other words God left us to wander blindly and decide ourselves what is good and bad.
 

Cintra

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I posted this up a long time ago, but I guess in the spirit of sharing experiences, this was mine...

This happened to me some years ago. I'm not going to press the point, but I leave it with you. You decide for yourself if the power of my belief made this happen.

My brother had a girlfriend when he was about 17 who had some very severe back trouble. She had a twisted spine and was given till her mid 20s before she would wind up in a wheelchair. She lived a few hours away from us and had come to visit with her friend for the weekend. That particular weekend Jim Sepulvida was sharing his experiences at an auditorum near to us and we had all wanted to hear him speak so we went.

Just to mention, this was 25 years ago and Jim is no longer with us but I found a (pretty old!) YouTube video of his testimony.


Anyway, at the end of the meeting, he went into a time of praying for the sick. Various people had gone up to the front but she didn't. There was a pause and Jim stopped, saying that the Lord was telling him there were five women there with back trouble.

Four came forward...

Jim stopped and said there was still a woman with back trouble that needed to come forward. She told me afterwards she thought at that moment 'I'm 17 - that means I'm a girl - it's not me'

Jim paused, then said 'OK, will the GIRL with back trouble please come forward!'

She did.

No-one touched her and she was certainly not a regular at 'that' sort of church, but as Jim prayed for her she fell backwards and looked like she was fast asleep!!! When she came to after a little while, she was smiling from ear to ear and ran up the steps to us, then round the hall again... When she had calmed down a bit she told us that she had felt the love and presence of God as she lay there and had the physical sensation of her spine being knocked into line!

Returning the doctors she had a series of tests and was pronounced inexplicably healed.
Did you know if she stayed healed? Or did you lose touch with her?
 

billy t

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God did not write the bible, jews did.
Saying otherwise after reading the old testament (and I mean reading every page from start to finish, not just quotes here and there) is willful ignorance.

Imo, applying simple spiritual logic inevitably leads to agnosticism in the following way:
- All religoeus people (claiming one specific religion) agree god is the source of all that is. Yet also believe he had to write his will down in words for us. And following his written will is the only way for us to be alligned with truth.
- but the creation itself can not be fully described using words because the principle of infinity (in time as well as space) implies it can never be entirely known. The creator of this creation is therefor even more elusive as he encompasses and supersedes all creation. So Truth (all encompassing Truth) can not be reduced to written (or spoken) language.
- this means all possible descriptions of god are either false if they claim to present the whole truth, or incomplete and therefore not entirely trustworthy.

Ancient and modern 'primitive' spiritual humans understand this and therefore restrain from elaborating too much about god. That is why silence (=meditation) is considered the only option when dealing with the subject. This is physically showing you have nothing to say (or do) about god, because all you can possibly say will never be the whole truth. The modern day equivalent can be considered as agnosticism, whether you meditate or not does not matter.

This practice of meditation was then bastardised by scammers hungry for power and wealth. They claim one can win the favor of the creator (of which you know nothing or only very little) by pronouncing certain words and performing certain rituals that ultimately only benefit the inventor of the practice. And so religion came to existence, ignoring the most basic understanding there is about god.
If you said that much of the Old Testament was written by Jews then yeah, that is accurate. However, to just say the whole Bible which includes the New Testament which consists of multiple books by various authors is a bit of an overgeneralization and simplification of a nuanced topic. The subject needs far more scrutiny than that.
 

billy t

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God did not write the bible, jews did.
Saying otherwise after reading the old testament (and I mean reading every page from start to finish, not just quotes here and there) is willful ignorance.

Imo, applying simple spiritual logic inevitably leads to agnosticism in the following way:
- All religoeus people (claiming one specific religion) agree god is the source of all that is. Yet also believe he had to write his will down in words for us. And following his written will is the only way for us to be alligned with truth.
- but the creation itself can not be fully described using words because the principle of infinity (in time as well as space) implies it can never be entirely known. The creator of this creation is therefor even more elusive as he encompasses and supersedes all creation. So Truth (all encompassing Truth) can not be reduced to written (or spoken) language.
- this means all possible descriptions of god are either false if they claim to present the whole truth, or incomplete and therefore not entirely trustworthy.

Ancient and modern 'primitive' spiritual humans understand this and therefore restrain from elaborating too much about god. That is why silence (=meditation) is considered the only option when dealing with the subject. This is physically showing you have nothing to say (or do) about god, because all you can possibly say will never be the whole truth. The modern day equivalent can be considered as agnosticism, whether you meditate or not does not matter.

This practice of meditation was then bastardised by scammers hungry for power and wealth. They claim one can win the favor of the creator (of which you know nothing or only very little) by pronouncing certain words and performing certain rituals that ultimately only benefit the inventor of the practice. And so religion came to existence, ignoring the most basic understanding there is about god.
Yes, humans can only have a limited knowledge of who God is. However, that doesn't mean that we should go to the opposite extreme where we claim that nobody can know who God is at all.

Our knowledge is limited on everything. So according to that logic we shouldn't believe anything. Human knowledge is limited on the cosmos so may be we should reject the existence of anything outside earths atmosphere in totality....

There are certain things about God that anyone with a sound mind can agree upon.

Let me give an example.

Many people believe that God exists. It can also be argued then if God created everything that it doesn't make sense to worship anyone else besides Him. God doesn't call us to worship him because God is in need of our worship. No, we are in need of Him.

Any religion that calls to the worship of the creation instead of the Creator is by default a false religion.

Logic also dictates that any religion that reduces God to a man is a false religion because humans are deficient yet God is not deficient because he is the Creator of everything which includes time and matter.

I am not aware of any religion that truly teaches the worship of God alone besides Islaam.
 
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Red Sky at Morning

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Did you know if she stayed healed? Or did you lose touch with her?
Well, she had arthritis of the spine and had spent years going to specialists etc only to be told she would be likely to need a wheelchair by the age of 25.

She came from a Christian denomination that didn’t teach a great deal on healing, and had no particular expectations that evening. I think it took a clear word that she knew was not possible to have come from anyone else to realise God would heal her.

Years later, after university, I bumped into her friend who also went that night. I was glad to her she was “still healed”!
 

Cintra

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Well, she had arthritis of the spine and had spent years going to specialists etc only to be told she would be likely to need a wheelchair by the age of 25.

She came from a Christian denomination that didn’t teach a great deal on healing, and had no particular expectations that evening. I think it took a clear word that she knew was not possible to have come from anyone else to realise God would heal her.

Years later, after university, I bumped into her friend who also went that night. I was glad to her she was “still healed”!
Excellent news!
I am glad for her.

And also for you, that you got to experience her healing and it made such a difference to your life too.
 

Red Sky at Morning

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Excellent news!
I am glad for her.

And also for you, that you got to experience her healing and it made such a difference to your life too.
A few years earlier, when I was in my teens, I noticed that my mum was having trouble with her food. Nothing seemed to go down properly and so she went to a specialist. It turned out she had a “hiatus hernia” which is basically an internal obstruction of the digestive system.

We would sometimes go to evenings organised by local churches where a meal was laid on at a good local hotel then a speaker would share his or her testimony and perhaps pray for people after. It was pretty informal. One evening we were there and a speaker called John Hutchinson was there. Mum wanted to go up for healing but was concerned that John might try to do something showy. Se waited till the end of the meeting when everyone was packing up to go over to him.

He started praying for her, and then said “The Lord is a gentleman you know?” Anyway, she was healed completely that night and has never had any relapse (30 years later now).
 
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Cintra

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A few years earlier, when I was in my teens, I noticed that my mum was having trouble with her food. Nothing seemed to go down properly and so she went to a specialist. It turned out she had a “hiatus hernia” which is basically an internal obstruction of the digestive system.

We would sometimes go to evenings organised by local churches where a meal was laid on at a good local hotel then a speaker would share his or her testimony and perhaps pray for people after. It was pretty informal. One evening we were there and a speaker called John Hutchinson was there. Mum wanted to go up for healing but was concerned that John might try to do something showy. Se waited till the end of the meeting when everyone was packing up to go over to him.

He started praying for her, and then said “The Lord is a gentleman you know?” Anyway, she was healed completely that night and has never had any relapse (30 years later now).
That is wonderful!
I am so glad she well, and also that some if these healings actually work.

I grew up with people doing healing and laying on of hands and all that stuff. Books filled with testimonies of miracle healings of people in far away places.
Never knew one to work in real life. Not in any dramatic or obvious way.
People said they 'felt better' which is a good thing, but hardly a miracle.

Really happy to know that sometimes these prayers are answered.
Thank you for sharing your experiences.
 

Identify

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If you said that much of the Old Testament was written by Jews then yeah, that is accurate. However, to just say the whole Bible which includes the New Testament which consists of multiple books by various authors is a bit of an overgeneralization and simplification of a nuanced topic. The subject needs far more scrutiny than that.
It eventually does not even matter who wrote it as the final version was put together during the council of nicea.
My point is that it is written by men, not god.
Logic also dictates that any religion that reduces God to a man is a false religion because humans are deficient yet God is not deficient because he is the Creator of everything which includes time and matter.

I am not aware of any religion that truly teaches the worship of God alone besides Islaam.
That is what I was trying to explain. Reducing god to written language is like describing colors to a blind man. It makes no sence, so it should not be done this way. All there is to explain is that you can look within yourself to try and catch a glimps of god, no need for writing nor reading.
 

recure

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It eventually does not even matter who wrote it as the final version was put together during the council of nicea.
The Council of Nicea dealt with the doctrine of Arianism and the dating of Easter. It had nothing to do with the Biblical canon. But I guess "it eventually does not matter" if a claim is nonsense because you will probably believe it anyway.
 

billy t

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It eventually does not even matter who wrote it as the final version was put together during the council of nicea.
My point is that it is written by men, not god.

That is what I was trying to explain. Reducing god to written language is like describing colors to a blind man. It makes no sence, so it should not be done this way. All there is to explain is that you can look within yourself to try and catch a glimps of god, no need for writing nor reading.
We believe the Qur'aan is Allahs (Gods) word. If Allah says he has a specific Name or Attribute then we affirm that for Him in a way that suits His Majesty. We AFFIRM the apparent meaning that is known in the language. As for the EXACT nature of it then we don't speculate exactly how the Name or Attribute is. We don't change the meaning of the Attribute to some other meaning by distorting the word. We don't say that the Name or Attribute is like that of His creation. We don't deny the Attribute. This goes for every Name and Attribute that Allah or the Prophet salAlalhu alaiyhi wasallam described Him with.

For example it is known that Allah knows all things that he is the Most Wise, He is the Most Merciful. He is above His Creation. So on and so on.

You argue that its like explaining colors to a blind man. Blind men don't reject the concept of colors just because they can't conceptualize them so this is a false equivalent.

Also according to this logic you shouldn't believe in mitochondria? Can you see the mitochondria? Can you see the nucleus? No, you can't see any of it. Hence you shouldn't believe in it because it can't be grasped with the senses.

Can you hear the sound of a dogs whistle that emits sound in an ultra-sonic range? No. Can you understand the true nature of the sound. No, you will never be able to because it is in a frequency that the human ear can't detect. Hence this sound doesn't exist.

You then contradict your whole argument by saying "look inside yourself to find God". So according to you the human mind can not grasp who God is yet at the same time you can find Him by looking inside yourself....

This is all new age beleifs and a revival of ancient paganism. Hindus believe God dwells inside His creation.
 
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billy t

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The Council of Nicea dealt with the doctrine of Arianism and the dating of Easter. It had nothing to do with the Biblical canon. But I guess "it eventually does not matter" if a claim is nonsense because you will probably believe it anyway.
Another point.

If someone sees a very great work of art then they don't need to see the person who made it to know that they are someone who has knowledge, wisdom, power and intent. All of this can be inferred by looking at the art piece. Likewise, the creation is an indication of the Magnificence of Allah.

*I replied to the wrong message. Was supposed to respond to your reply to me instead.
 

A Freeman

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Regarding the indwelling of God's Holy Spirit/Mediator/Christ within...

From the Koran (Quran):-

Sura 2:87. We gave Moses The Book (The Torah – The Law) and followed him up with a succession of Apostles; We gave Jesus the son of Mary Clear (Signs) AND STRENGTHENED HIM WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT (CHRISTJohn 14:15-19). Is it that whenever there comes to you an Apostle with what ye yourselves desire not, ye are puffed up with pride?- Some ye called impostors, and others ye slay (Matt. 21:33-46)!

Sura 2:253. Those Apostles We endowed with gifts, some above others: to one of them God spoke; others He raised to degrees (of honour); to Jesus the son of Mary We gave clear (Signs), AND RE-INFORCED HIM WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT (THE SPIRIT-BEING CHRISTJohn 16:7-16). If God had so willed, succeeding generations would not have fought among each other, after clear (Signs) had come to them, but they (chose) to wrangle, some believing and others rejecting. If God had so willed, they would not have fought each other; but God fulfilleth His Plan.

Sura 5:113. Then will "I AM" say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Recount My favour to thee and to thy mother. Behold! I STRENGTHENED THEE WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT (CHRIST), so that thou didst speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. Behold! I taught thee The Book (The Torah and Prophets – John 7:15-17) and Wisdom (John 5:20), The Law (The Torah – John 5:46-47) and The Gospel (Mark 1:14-15) and behold! Thou makest out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, by My leave, thou breathest into it (Gen. 2:7), and it becometh a bird by My leave, and thou healest those born blind (John 9), and the lepers (Luke 7:22), by My leave (John 3:35). And behold! Thou bringest forth the dead by My leave (John 5:21). And behold! I did restrain the Children of Israel from (violence to) thee when thou didst show them the Clear Signs (Luke 4:16-30), and the Unbelievers among them said: 'This is nothing but sorcery' (Mark 6:1-6).

IF “Muslims” actually did God's Will (Islam), and read the Bible as He has COMMANDED them to do, they would see for themselves Who the Comforter/Holy Spirit really is: CHRIST (John 14:15-19, 16:7-16), Who is mentioned directly or indirectly over 300 times in the Koran.

John 16:7, 13-16
16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the Truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I WILL SEND HIM UNTO YOU.

16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of Truth, is come, he will GUIDE you into all Truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will show you things to come.
16:14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall show [it] unto you.
16:15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall show [it] unto you.
16:16 A little while, and ye shall not see me (3 days and 3 nights): and AGAIN, a little while (after the Ascension), and ye SHALL see me, BECAUSE I go to the Father.

John 14:17-18
14:17 [Even] the Spirit of Truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I WILL COME TO YOU.

It is the "Jews" and "Christians" and "Muslims" who drive others to agnosticism and atheism, because of the obvious hypocrisy of the followers of these organized religions, who clearly do NOT keep God's Law.

Anyone who believes in the concepts of good and evil, and that good will always triumph over evil in the end, isn't really an atheist or agnostic; they just haven't made the connection between God and Go(o)d and between the d/evil and evil.

The only way to make this world a better place is to keep and enforce God's Law ONLY, which would end all poverty, injustice, oppression, war and deadly illnesses. How could anyone who truly has God's Holy Spirit dwelling inside of them do anything less?
 

Red Sky at Morning

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The only way to make this world a better place is to keep and enforce God's Law ONLY, which would end all poverty, injustice, oppression, war and deadly illnesses. How could anyone who truly has God's Holy Spirit dwelling inside of them do anything less?
Romans 5 to 8

If more people actually read the chapters in their entirety, there would be far less confusion on the topic!!

 

A Freeman

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Romans 5 to 8

If more people actually read the chapters in their entirety, there would be far less confusion on the topic!!
Thank-you, but that goes for the entire Bible and the Koran (Quran), asking our Creator for His Guidance in understanding it, NOT some spiritually blind guide like those who teach that Paul did away with The Law.

Paul said, in the middle of the 4 chapters that you've cited, that he himself was living by The Law that God gave us, and that The Law is holy, just and good, so why do so many so-called Christians seek refuge from God and His Christ in their MISUNDERSTANDINGS of the letters of Paul?

The ONLY Way to be free from sin and to LIVE is to STOP SINNING/BREAKING THE LAW. By definition, sin is breaking The Law that God gave us (1 John 3:4), which Christ said would NEVER pass away (Matt. 5:17-18).

Romans 6:22-23
6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting Life.
6:23 For the wages of sin [is] DEATH (Eze. 18:4); but the gift of God [is] eternal Life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 7:7 What shall we say then? [Is] The Law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known [what was] sin, except by The Law: for I had not known [what] lust [is], except The Law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Romans 7:12 Wherefore The Law [is] holy, and the Commandment holy, and just, and good.

Romans 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind (Being) I myself serve The Law of God; but with the flesh (human) the law of sin.

Paul shared the distinction between the spirit and the flesh, because the flesh (human) serves its self rather than God and His Law. Exactly the situation we have today in this world, where 7+ billion people all have their own opinions (Satan's really) of what is right and wrong, rather than learning and accepting God's definition of what is right and wrong, found ONLY in the first five books of the Bible, which are collectively referred to as The Torah or, in English, The Law.

Romans 8:5-8
8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
8:6 For to be carnally minded [is] death; but to be spiritually minded [is] life and peace (John 3:5-6).
8:7 Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to The Law of God, neither indeed can it be.
8:8 So then they that are in the ways of flesh cannot please God.

So-called Christians claim to be "born again" and "filled with the Holy Spirit (Christ)" while continuing in sin/breaking The Law, proving they have NOT been born again nor are they filled with the Holy Spirit. Does God's Holy Spirit exist alongside of sin? God forbid. God is NOT the author of confusion; Satan is, through his organized religions and their spiritually blind leaders.
 
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Red Sky at Morning

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Thank-you, but that goes for the entire Bible and the Koran (Quran), asking our Creator for His Guidance in understanding it, NOT some spiritually blind guide like the one you linked in the video.
The fact that you see agreement between the message of the Qur’an and the Bible tells me you don’t really understand the message of the Bible.

I would agree that you can find a form of “works based salvation” in various forms of religious Christianity and also Islam. Just because certain people who are not born again identify as Christians doesn’t make them so, any more than the current trans fixation is altering the number of actual men and women in this world.

The video I linked was Romans 5-8. I presume you mean that Paul was the “spiritually blind guide”?
 
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Red Sky at Morning

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Is Romans the word of God or a letter by Paul?
You tell me, @billy t

2 Peter 3

14Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. 15And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. 17Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness. 18But grow in grace, and inthe knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.
 

Identify

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And this is exactly what I was referring to. Everyone above claiming to follow God's written word yet all of you disagree.
All i said was if you look within yourself you will catch a glimpse of god. You will not find him as he can not be found by you, you would need to be equal to god in order to fully grasp every aspect of his being.
This has nothing to do with the 'new age' psyops. It is simple spiritual logic.

Stop claiming you have the truth. It is pretentious. Simply admit you do not know and can not know all of your certainties about your creator.
Humble silence is our only option as mortal humans.
 

Red Sky at Morning

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And this is exactly what I was referring to. Everyone above claiming to follow God's written word yet all of you disagree.
All i said was if you look within yourself you will catch a glimpse of god. You will not find him as he can not be found by you, you would need to be equal to god in order to fully grasp every aspect of his being.
This has nothing to do with the 'new age' psyops. It is simple spiritual logic.

Stop claiming you have the truth. It is pretentious. Simply admit you do not know and can not know all of your certainties about your creator.
Humble silence is our only option as mortal humans.
Let’s just examine this one....

If God is real and if He wants us to know something of his nature, He may or may not have wanted to convey that knowledge through recorded words.

If He wanted people to write things that were true about Him, you might reasonably expect that from the earliest times, there might be some record.

Add to this, if Satan (or similar malevolent force in the Universe) existed, you might expect him to either oppose this record, or to produce oppositional narratives that either fully oppose the true one, as well as deceptive narratives that have some similarities but are different in essential points.

If in these myriad of self-proclaimed disclosures of God’s plan, one of them is ACTUALLY true, it is no matter of “pride” to find the truth (if you are fortunate enough to do so), since it was not your merit that brought you to it.

That having been said, the truths that are within us should resonate most strongly with the true text (if indeed there is one) and by the same token be repelled by false ones.
 
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