Finding the good in Agnosticism - an honest look at faith and doubt

Alanantic

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But mate this thread is titled "Finding the good in Agnosticism - an honest look at faith and doubt" and I'm just wondering can there be any good in people who reject Jesus?
I've got a cricket on my shoulder. All I gotta do is whistle. I prefer people with a conscience than those that point to a book to show you their beliefs or morals.
 

Tidal

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Doctors do it all the time. The point I'm trying to make is, a miracle shouldn't be a criteria for authenticity. It should be the Truth in the words they spoke and the compassion and love in their actions, not whether they can behave supernaturally or not.

Lazarus had been in that tomb for 3 days and was a rotting corpse, even the onlookers told Jesus he must be stinking by now, but he went ahead and brought him back fresh as a daisy, something doctors have never done.
Interestingly Jesus said we could do miracles too if we knew how ("move a mountain"), so there's nothing 'supernatural' about it, it's simply a law of physics.
In a sense perhaps Jesus was a 'Master of the Art of Dream Manipulation', able to bend this 'dream' we call 'reality' to produce what looked like miracles to people..

"Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one''- Einstein
"All that we see or seem, is but a dream within a dream"- Edgar Allen Poe
"You can be in my dream if i can be in your dream"- Bob Dylan
"We are such stuff as dreams are made on"- The Tempest
"Strawberry Fields...nothing is real"- The Beatles
"What is your life? You are a mist that appears for a little while and then vanishes" - Bible,James 4:14

"Have you ever had a dream that you were so sure was real? How would you know the difference between the dream world and the real world?"- Morpheus in The Matrix
 

Tidal

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I've got a cricket on my shoulder. All I gotta do is whistle. I prefer people with a conscience than those that point to a book to show you their beliefs or morals.
I dunno what crickets have got to do with anything mate, all I know is that I'd still have strong Christian values and ideals even if there'd never been a Jesus..:)
 

Alanantic

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I dunno what crickets have got to do with anything mate, all I know is that I'd still have strong Christian values and ideals even if there'd never been a Jesus..:)
Jiminy Cricket was the voice of Pinocchio's conscience in the Disney film.

"I'd still have strong Christian values and ideals even if there'd never been a Jesus" That is the wisest thing I've ever heard on this forum. I have a whole new level of respect for you!
 

Tidal

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"I'd still have strong Christian values and ideals even if there'd never been a Jesus" That is the wisest thing I've ever heard on this forum.

When Helen Keller was struck deaf and blind at 19 months of age with a childhood illness, she later learned to communicate by tapping on people's fingers, and when she was asked "What was it like to be told about Jesus for the first time?", she replied "I always knew he was there".
The same applies to all the generations who were born before Jesus, he was there for them if they could sense him.
Personally I 'found' him in my early teens when I was a shy introverted kid so utterly fed up of the stupidity of the world that I thought "There must be something better than this", and I remembered a few bible passages that said the same thing, so I picked up a bible to find more and bingo! over the years I became the strongest person I know; it's a power thing..:)

"I am full of power, judgement and might by the spirit of the Lord" (Micah 3:8)
"Our gospel came to you not simply with words but also with power"- (1 Thess 1:5)
"He who is in you is greater than he [satan] who is in the world" (1 John 4:4)
"The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds" (2 Cor 10:4)
"After Jesus spent the night in prayer, everybody tried to touch him because power was coming from him" (Luke 6:12-19)
Jesus said - "Someone touched me, I know that power has gone out from me." (Luke 8:46)

"Our gospel came to you not simply with words but also with power"- (1 Thess 1:5)

The trick is to log onto Jesus so that his power begins downloading into us..:)

 

Alanantic

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I was raised an evangelical Christian, tried to get into it in high school, even played guitar in a Christian jazz band. But, I had to be honest with myself and really never felt anything. So, I left the church and studied everything. In my old age, I guess I'm a non-dualist.
 

Red Sky at Morning

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@Alanantic

Catching up on the posts above, and the interesting point made by @Tidal ...

My mind went to The Silver Chair, by C.S. Lewis, which has got to be one of the best allegorical treatments of faith and doubt I have read. In searching for the quote, I came across a blog post on the topic, which I include in full as it was so good!!!

——————

Puddleglum is by far one of the most charming creatures in Narnia. He's a pessimist and always cautious, but also delightfully brave and loyal. Or as he would say, he likes to expect the worst and then put a good face on it. Puddleglum was based on a gardener of the Lewis' named Fred Paxford. According to Jack's stepson, Douglas Gresham, he was "a simple and earthy man who might be called a cheerful, eternal pessimist. If you said good morning to him, he might reply, 'Ah! Looks like rain afore lunch, though; if'n it don't snow or hail, tha's.'" Puddleglum's character is introduced in SC and accompanies Eustace and his friend, Jill Pole, on the quest to find the lost prince, King Caspian's son, Rilian. Prince Rilian has been kept captive for ten years under the spell of the Lady of the Green Kirtle, a witch who rules the Underland. Puddleglum becomes a hero by thwarting her nearly successful attempt to put them all under a spell using a green powder put in the fire, playing her mandolin, and making them doubt the existence of Narnia and Aslan. He stomps his webbed foot (he's a Marshwiggle, a creature who's sort of a cross between a man and a frog) in the fire, breaking the spell and then gives this wonderful speech:

“One word, Ma'am," he said, coming back from the fire; limping, because of the pain. "One word. All you've been saying is quite right, I shouldn't wonder. I'm a chap who always liked to know the worst and then put the best face I can on it. So I won't deny any of what you said. But there's one thing more to be said, even so. Suppose we have only dreamed, or made up, all those things – trees and grass and sun and moon and stars and Aslan himself. Suppose we have. Then all I can say is that, in that case, the made-up things seem a good deal more important than the real ones. Suppose this black pit of a kingdom of yours is the only world. Well, it strikes me as a pretty poor one. And that's a funny thing, when you come to think of it. We're just babies making up a game, if you're right. But four babies playing a game can make a play-world which licks your real world hollow. That's why I'm going to stand by the play-world. I'm on Aslan's side even if there isn't any Aslan to lead it. I'm going to live as like a Narnian as I can even if there isn't any Narnia. So, thanking you kindly for our supper, if these two gentlemen and the young lady are ready, we're leaving your court at once and setting out in the dark to spend our lives looking for Overland. Not that our lives will be very long, I should think; but that's a small loss if the world's as dull a place as you say."

While doing some research for this one, I came across two philosophical theories to which it's been connected. I don't intend on going very deeply into them but I do think they're worth mentioning, especially since one is mentioned by Lewis in one of his letters.

One is found in a letter Lewis wrote which says, "I suppose your philosopher son...means the chapter in which Puddleglum puts out the fire with his foot. He must thank Anselm and Descartes for it, not me. I have simply put the 'Ontological Proof' in form suitable for children." The ontological argument is basically that God is the greatest being which can be thought; it is greater to exist in reality and in thought than in thought alone; therefore, God exists in reality and in thought.

First, I must say that I am not a philosopher, nor do I pretend to be. That said, this is my blog and I'll say what I want to say. I don't find this to be a particularly good theory. And I must admit I really don't understand what Jack meant by comparing these two ideas. The best I've seen it explained is in a blog comment which says that what Jack might have meant by this comparison is that Puddleglum argues that if Narnia does not exist, fiction is greater than reality. There is no fiction greater than reality. Therefore, Narnia exists.

The same blog post linked above introduces the idea that Puddleglum's argument is really more like Pascal's Wager, which is this: Either there is God or there is not God. We all must choose a side, and only one or the other will be true. Since we can't prove either side, we must make a wager. If we believe in God and it's true, we gain here on Earth by living a moral life and gain infinitely in eternity. If it's not true, we still have lived a moral life and lose nothing in eternity, for there is none. If we believe there is not a God, we lose on earth by living immorally and gain nothing in eternity and if we're wrong, lose infinitely in eternity. Therefore, the best choice is to believe in God. As Pascal said, "If you gain, you gain all; if you lose, you lose nothing."

This fits better with Puddleglum's argument I think, than the ontological does. It's not in itself a good enough reason for faith, but it is an assuring thought I suppose. But enough with philosophy; this is how I see it. The reason Puddleglum's speech is great is because it's a rousing encouragement to believers to keep their faith even when others might convince you otherwise. One thing that's lacking from the philosophical break-down of the speech is to take into account Puddleglum's personality. Without knowing Puddleglum, he seems to be saying only that his ideas of Narnia and Aslan are better than reality, therefore he will believe them even if they aren't true. And this when taken parallel to faith to God seems to say that our faith is all wishful thinking. That God is worth believing in only because it's a nicer ideathan if the material world is all there is. But knowing how Puddleglum speaks puts a new light on the whole passage.

Here's a sampling of one-liners: "Those eels will take a mortal long time to cook, and either of you might faint with hunger before their done." "And you must always remember there's one good thing about being trapped down here: it'll save funeral expenses." "Very likely, what with enemies, and mountains, and rivers to cross, and losing our way, and next to nothing to eat, and sore feel, we'll hardly notice the weather." "You'd better try for some sleep, you two; not that I suppose any of us will close an eye tonight."(And instantly went into a loud continuous snore.)

As you can see, it's all cheerful pessimism. So when he concedes that the LGK is most likely right and that they are all just babies making up a game, well, I won't say he doesn't mean it because it is his personality to see things such, but he doesn't mean it quite the same as if many of us would. But it's a good thing it is him who said it because it really gives his argument more merit. A more optimistic person might have just said, 'well, I don't care what you say, I'm going to believe in Aslan because that's what I choose to believe.' It's essentially what Puddleglum was saying but significantly less powerful. The fact that even the most pessimistic view of the situation could be better than LGK's 'reality' gave the children and Rilian power to hold on to their faith.

Lewis explains in Mere Christianity, book 3, chapter 11,

"It is not reason that is taking away my faith: on the contrary, my faith is based on reason. It is my imagination and emotions. The battle is between faith and reason on one side and emotion and imagination on the other...Now Faith, in the sense in which I am here using the word, is the art of holding on to things your reason has once accepted, in spite of your changing moods."

This is the sense of what I think Lewis was really speaking through Puddleglum. That even if by some chance we are wrong about all this: about God and the existence of God and the whole purpose of life. Even if we're wrong, we're better off continuing to act like we're not. Because at least we still have purpose, and love, and hope. I'd rather live my life as a Christian even if there is no Christ. I'm on Heaven's side even if there is no Heaven.

 
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Tidal

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I'd rather live my life as a Christian even if there is no Christ. I'm on Heaven's side even if there is no Heaven.

God said-
"I fill heaven and earth" (Jer 23:23/4)

so in a sense the universe is like a goldfish bowl, God is the water (the Holy Spirit) and we're the fish swimming in it..:)
"In him we live and move and have our being" (Acts 17:28)

Jesus showed us how to "tune in" to that holy spirit so that we become part of it and part of Jesus and God and the universe-
"On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you" (John 14:20)

And people quickly cottoned on-
"And the common people heard Jesus gladly" (Mark 12:37)
"There is no other name under heaven that can save us" (Acts 4:12)
 

Alanantic

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@Alanantic

Catching up on the posts above, and the interesting point made by @Tidal ...

My mind went to The Silver Chair, by C.S. Lewis, which has got to be one of the best allegorical treatments of faith and doubt I have read. In searching for the quote, I came across a blog post on the topic, which I include in full as it was so good!!!

——————

Puddleglum is by far one of the most charming creatures in Narnia. He's a pessimist and always cautious, but also delightfully brave and loyal. Or as he would say, he likes to expect the worst and then put a good face on it. Puddleglum was based on a gardener of the Lewis' named Fred Paxford. According to Jack's stepson, Douglas Gresham, he was "a simple and earthy man who might be called a cheerful, eternal pessimist. If you said good morning to him, he might reply, 'Ah! Looks like rain afore lunch, though; if'n it don't snow or hail, tha's.'" Puddleglum's character is introduced in SC and accompanies Eustace and his friend, Jill Pole, on the quest to find the lost prince, King Caspian's son, Rilian. Prince Rilian has been kept captive for ten years under the spell of the Lady of the Green Kirtle, a witch who rules the Underland. Puddleglum becomes a hero by thwarting her nearly successful attempt to put them all under a spell using a green powder put in the fire, playing her mandolin, and making them doubt the existence of Narnia and Aslan. He stomps his webbed foot (he's a Marshwiggle, a creature who's sort of a cross between a man and a frog) in the fire, breaking the spell and then gives this wonderful speech:

“One word, Ma'am," he said, coming back from the fire; limping, because of the pain. "One word. All you've been saying is quite right, I shouldn't wonder. I'm a chap who always liked to know the worst and then put the best face I can on it. So I won't deny any of what you said. But there's one thing more to be said, even so. Suppose we have only dreamed, or made up, all those things – trees and grass and sun and moon and stars and Aslan himself. Suppose we have. Then all I can say is that, in that case, the made-up things seem a good deal more important than the real ones. Suppose this black pit of a kingdom of yours is the only world. Well, it strikes me as a pretty poor one. And that's a funny thing, when you come to think of it. We're just babies making up a game, if you're right. But four babies playing a game can make a play-world which licks your real world hollow. That's why I'm going to stand by the play-world. I'm on Aslan's side even if there isn't any Aslan to lead it. I'm going to live as like a Narnian as I can even if there isn't any Narnia. So, thanking you kindly for our supper, if these two gentlemen and the young lady are ready, we're leaving your court at once and setting out in the dark to spend our lives looking for Overland. Not that our lives will be very long, I should think; but that's a small loss if the world's as dull a place as you say."

While doing some research for this one, I came across two philosophical theories to which it's been connected. I don't intend on going very deeply into them but I do think they're worth mentioning, especially since one is mentioned by Lewis in one of his letters.

One is found in a letter Lewis wrote which says, "I suppose your philosopher son...means the chapter in which Puddleglum puts out the fire with his foot. He must thank Anselm and Descartes for it, not me. I have simply put the 'Ontological Proof' in form suitable for children." The ontological argument is basically that God is the greatest being which can be thought; it is greater to exist in reality and in thought than in thought alone; therefore, God exists in reality and in thought.

First, I must say that I am not a philosopher, nor do I pretend to be. That said, this is my blog and I'll say what I want to say. I don't find this to be a particularly good theory. And I must admit I really don't understand what Jack meant by comparing these two ideas. The best I've seen it explained is in a blog comment which says that what Jack might have meant by this comparison is that Puddleglum argues that if Narnia does not exist, fiction is greater than reality. There is no fiction greater than reality. Therefore, Narnia exists.

The same blog post linked above introduces the idea that Puddleglum's argument is really more like Pascal's Wager, which is this: Either there is God or there is not God. We all must choose a side, and only one or the other will be true. Since we can't prove either side, we must make a wager. If we believe in God and it's true, we gain here on Earth by living a moral life and gain infinitely in eternity. If it's not true, we still have lived a moral life and lose nothing in eternity, for there is none. If we believe there is not a God, we lose on earth by living immorally and gain nothing in eternity and if we're wrong, lose infinitely in eternity. Therefore, the best choice is to believe in God. As Pascal said, "If you gain, you gain all; if you lose, you lose nothing."

This fits better with Puddleglum's argument I think, than the ontological does. It's not in itself a good enough reason for faith, but it is an assuring thought I suppose. But enough with philosophy; this is how I see it. The reason Puddleglum's speech is great is because it's a rousing encouragement to believers to keep their faith even when others might convince you otherwise. One thing that's lacking from the philosophical break-down of the speech is to take into account Puddleglum's personality. Without knowing Puddleglum, he seems to be saying only that his ideas of Narnia and Aslan are better than reality, therefore he will believe them even if they aren't true. And this when taken parallel to faith to God seems to say that our faith is all wishful thinking. That God is worth believing in only because it's a nicer ideathan if the material world is all there is. But knowing how Puddleglum speaks puts a new light on the whole passage.

Here's a sampling of one-liners: "Those eels will take a mortal long time to cook, and either of you might faint with hunger before their done." "And you must always remember there's one good thing about being trapped down here: it'll save funeral expenses." "Very likely, what with enemies, and mountains, and rivers to cross, and losing our way, and next to nothing to eat, and sore feel, we'll hardly notice the weather." "You'd better try for some sleep, you two; not that I suppose any of us will close an eye tonight."(And instantly went into a loud continuous snore.)

As you can see, it's all cheerful pessimism. So when he concedes that the LGK is most likely right and that they are all just babies making up a game, well, I won't say he doesn't mean it because it is his personality to see things such, but he doesn't mean it quite the same as if many of us would. But it's a good thing it is him who said it because it really gives his argument more merit. A more optimistic person might have just said, 'well, I don't care what you say, I'm going to believe in Aslan because that's what I choose to believe.' It's essentially what Puddleglum was saying but significantly less powerful. The fact that even the most pessimistic view of the situation could be better than LGK's 'reality' gave the children and Rilian power to hold on to their faith.

Lewis explains in Mere Christianity, book 3, chapter 11,
"It is not reason that is taking away my faith: on the contrary, my faith is based on reason. It is my imagination and emotions. The battle is between faith and reason on one side and emotion and imagination on the other...Now Faith, in the sense in which I am here using the word, is the art of holding on to things your reason has once accepted, in spite of your changing moods."

This is the sense of what I think Lewis was really speaking through Puddleglum. That even if by some chance we are wrong about all this: about God and the existence of God and the whole purpose of life. Even if we're wrong, we're better off continuing to act like we're not. Because at least we still have purpose, and love, and hope. I'd rather live my life as a Christian even if there is no Christ. I'm on Heaven's side even if there is no Heaven.

I see the whole universe as a "prop" for Life/Consciousness/God to create His Play. This is God's Dream. The things that are actually Real, are the archetypal concepts being defined by the Play; Love, Wisdom, Will, etc. Or the play of Dualities like, Good/Evil, or dimensions like Near/Far, Alone/Together. Even the myriad creatures from atoms to gods are all props in the play. So, even if there's no (real) universe, Spirit will pretend there is one. And, that Spirit unites us all and underlies everything. My 2 cents.
 

Alanantic

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God said-
"I fill heaven and earth" (Jer 23:23/4)

so in a sense the universe is like a goldfish bowl, God is the water (the Holy Spirit) and we're the fish swimming in it..:)
"In him we live and move and have our being" (Acts 17:28)

Jesus showed us how to "tune in" to that holy spirit so that we become part of it and part of Jesus and God and the universe-
"On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you" (John 14:20)

And people quickly cottoned on-
"And the common people heard Jesus gladly" (Mark 12:37)
"There is no other name under heaven that can save us" (Acts 4:12)
Tidal, your faith is commendable. :)
 

Tidal

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"Reality" is what our 5 senses are programmed to tell us, yet our senses can be easily fooled.
For example our eyes tell us that the top pic is moving, but in fact it's a static image.
Likewise our eyes tell us that the horizontal lines in the bottom pic are not horizontal, but they are!
So maybe everything we see and hear in the world and universe around us is just an illusion too..:)





How about it Baron?-

 

Tidal

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They did it back then also.

But if any Tom Dick Harry could do miracles, why didn't people also follow them?
The answer of course is that only Jesus was the genuine article..:)

"He asked his disciples, “Who do people say I am?”
They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”
“But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”
Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”

Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven." (Matt 13:16/17)
 

Tidal

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I was raised an evangelical Christian, tried to get into it in high school, even played guitar in a Christian jazz band. But, I had to be honest with myself and really never felt anything. So, I left the church..

Good for you mate, most organised religion is satanic and exists only to put people off Jesus.
The only mistake you made was in rejecting Jesus as well as O.R...:)

PS- a kid once came into the AOL Spiritual chatroom and said "My parents drag me to church every sunday but I hate it, what should I do?"
So I said "Refuse pointblank to go".
His parents must have complained about me to AOL because later an AOL Host politely told me I shoudn't really say such things..:)
 

Maldarker

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But if any Tom Dick Harry could do miracles, why didn't people also follow them?
The answer of course is that only Jesus was the genuine article..:)

"He asked his disciples, “Who do people say I am?”
They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”
“But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”
Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”

Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven." (Matt 13:16/17)
Exactly! Point was that they had magician in ancient times also as well as today same shtick.
 

Alanantic

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Good for you mate, most organised religion is satanic and exists only to put people off Jesus.
The only mistake you made was in rejecting Jesus as well as O.R...:)

PS- a kid once came into the AOL Spiritual chatroom and said "My parents drag me to church every Sunday but I hate it, what should I do?"
So I said "Refuse pointblank to go".
His parents must have complained about me to AOL because later an AOL Host politely told me I shouldn't really say such things..:)
Good for you! My brother refused to go to church and became the "black sheep" of the family. There are consequences, though.
I don't reject Jesus. I happen to prefer Buddha or Krishna. Jesus seemed too intent on fulfilling messianic prophecy, than simply preach Love. I think that's what got him killed. Buddha was adamant in saying he meant nothing. "Just a finger pointing at the moon."
 

Tidal

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I don't reject Jesus. I happen to prefer Buddha or Krishna. Jesus seemed too intent on fulfilling messianic prophecy, than simply preach Love. I think that's what got him killed. Buddha was adamant in saying he meant nothing. "Just a finger pointing at the moon."

Buddha was just an ordinary human in 500 BC giving us his best guesses and hunches, but if he was spot on with everything he said, God wouldn't have had to send Jesus to set the human race straight once and for all..:)
But in fairness to Buddha he was an honest truthseeker and he'd probably heard all the Old T prophecies about the coming of Jesus and wished he'd meet him; perhaps he was one of the truthseekers who Jesus spoke of when he said to his disciples--
"Many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which you see, and have not seen them, and to hear those things which you hear, and have not heard them" (Matt 13:17)

As for Krishna, he was just some "god" invented by assorted ancient hindu cults, and as hinduism operates the elitist caste system i don't see any love there..:)

 
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