Faustian bargain.

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#1
@Illuminized
Iam moving this here to be explored so as not to derail the other thread

I said:
We all want to be good people but like a baby hooked on Meth in-utero, we have an inclination outside the womb. Self-harm is basically written in our DNA. Imo, if it wasn't for a Higher Power, that upholds our 'good nature', earth would have stopped spinning on its axis like aeons ago, blown to smithereens.
You said:
Do you have a source for
that claim?

If it weren't for the conception of a higher
power, we would have
already exterminated ourselves.
I don't have what you'd call a 'legitimate source' to back up my claim, except my own philosophical pov. But i will make an appeal to Faustian pact. It is the epitome of self-harm inherent to man.

...Aswell as Alexsandr Solzhenitsyn to my aid
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties either -- but right through every
human heart -- and through all human hearts. This line shifts. Inside us, it oscillates with the years. And even within hearts
overwhelmed by evil, one small bridgehead of good is retained.
And even in the best of all hearts, there remains ... an
unuprooted small corner of evil.


In this tug-of-war raging in our hearts, if Good loosened grip of its side of the rope, what do you think will happen? Keeping in mind that we already are inclined to or have an appetite for rebellion, and that man isn't the Source of good.
 





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#2
Solzhenitsyn's experiences may be real, but his predisposition to Christianity clouded his judgment. He stresses the persecution of Russian Christians but overlooks the persecutions (and executions) of other dissidents.

Now if you substitute "good" with "common sense" and "evil" with "ignorance", that quote becomes more proper.

Humans aren't naturally inclined towards rebellion. It's because the notion of freedom was introduced to them that their rebellions have become habitual. It is not "knowledge of good and evil", but arbitrary freedom, that caused "the Fall".

"For that the power to distinguish between good and less good is the property of wisdom is evident surely even to the witless; so that the serpent was a benefactor rather than a destroyer of the human race." - Julian
 





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#3
Julian sounds sooo gnostic.

Anyway, i maintain we are inclined to rebellion because;
*we do have a deep-seated weakness for the forbidden.
*We get a thrill akin to those jumping off the Matterhorn in teflonsuits.


But its also a form of self-deception, we think that by rebelling, we are choosing freedom and more often than not, its the opposite.
Freedom only makes sense/ finds its definition in the context of boundaries/laws so 'arbitrary freedom' doesn't make sense to me.

Considering our appetite for self-
harm (destroying ourselves and habitation),one of my favorite people wrote:

The false faith in man’s
reason and scientific
methodology must also
be accompanied by a false faith in man and his own progress. This is not to say that man cannot use his reason to probe the atom or control the
electromagnetic spectrum: He can and does. But why does he do this? In a universe desacralized and
emptied of any divine telos, the only logical conclusion is the destruction of what is,
and thus man’s quest to dethrone God erupts
into an orgiastic fanaticism to annihilate
prima materia.
The universe is mirrored in the atom, and so the atom must be divided, because the universe must be destroyed, and this is because man follows Satan, who is the adversary that divides."

so, despite our 'disability', it ultimately demands of us to commit Deicide.
 





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#4
Julian sounds sooo gnostic.
Far from it. The gnostic worldview, as it is currently perceived, is utterly nihilistic. Julian (and Plato before him) asserted that existence was good/divine.

Anyway, i maintain we are inclined to rebellion because;
*we do have a deep-seated weakness for the forbidden.
*We get a thrill akin to those jumping off the Matterhorn in teflonsuits.
Substitute that with "exploration" or "adventure" and it's actually a healthy inclination.

But its also a form of self-deception, we think that by rebelling, we are choosing freedom and more often than not, its the opposite.
Freedom only makes sense/ finds its definition in the context of boundaries/laws so 'arbitrary freedom' doesn't make sense to me.
The more people speak of freedom, the more it's taken away. Why is that?
 





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#5
Substitute that [pursuit of the forbidden] with "exploration" or "adventure" and it's actually a healthy inclination.
Haha, even if its going to cost you your life...and that of your loved ones? I don't think its worth it. Phaeton???
You said:
The more people speak of freedom, the more it's taken away. Why is that?
I think freedom is paramount to the health (spiritual, physical, emotional, mental) of man. You take that away, you have a sick person/populace. The despair that comes with the prospect of slavery is definitely detrimental. And a sick person is very easily controlled, so the overlords know what they are doing.
 





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#6
Jeremiah 17:9-10
"Crooked is the heart above all things, and it is incurable -- who doth know it?
I, Yehovah do search the heart, try the reins, even to give to each according to his way, according to the fruit of his doings."
 





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#7
Haha, even if its going to cost you your life...and that of your loved ones? I don't think its worth it. Phaeton???
Even if I had people who I could count as loved ones, yes. I've been cooped up in my house for years. That one Chinese guy who fell off the rooftop recently, he might have slipped up, but he must have had the time of his life in that moment. Never mind that he risked dead, he was outdoors enjoying himself.

Also, I really do like reading the myth of Phaethon, it's one of my favorites!

I think freedom is paramount to the health (spiritual, physical, emotional, mental) of man. You take that away, you have a sick person/populace. The despair that comes with the prospect of slavery is definitely detrimental. And a sick person is very easily controlled, so the overlords know what they are doing.
If freedom wasn't constantly being taught and espoused, no one would even fret over it since they couldn't even conceive of it!
 





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#8
Even if I had people who I could count as loved ones, yes. I've been cooped up in my house for years. That one Chinese guy who fell off the rooftop recently, he might have slipped up, but he must have had the time of his life in that moment. Never mind that he risked dead, he was outdoors enjoying himself.

Also, I really do like reading the myth of Phaethon, it's one of my favorites!
Iam not against enjoying life but imo, somethings aren't worth losing your life to them. Iam okay with /understanding of someone who plummets to their death from skydiving rather than someone who is all consumed with making money...."leaving dead bodies behind in their climb to the top"...workaholism isn't worth it if its going to kill you.

Icarus was the first myth i ever read as a kid, so it remains a favorite.
If freedom wasn't constantly being taught and espoused, no one would even fret over it since they couldn't even conceive of it!
How would you be unable to concieve it if it is something that the soul craves? I think in our age, its a common cry because we've been told we need to be free of the shackles of patriarchy, religion, marriage, etc but are we any more free? This isn't any different from what happened in Eden, Satan promised freedom but they got slavery in exchange.

It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.~ Gal 5:1
So, according to Julian, how exactly was the serpent a benefactor to the humanrace?

There is also a reason we often hear statements like "Leader of the free world", "The West is free", keeping this up, the populace finds difficulty reconciling that with the actual loss of freedoms hence stifling resistance. The US is pretty much policestate but the media maintains its a "free country".
 





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#9
@Illuminized

"For that the power to distinguish between good and less good is the property of wisdom is evident surely even to the witless; so that the serpent was a benefactor rather than a destroyer of the human race." Julian

I have some experience in marketing...

If I was Lucifer's PR agent, I would be inclined to put together a similar pitch.

21918B949-FEE2-BD0C-A9E4CF3BA2645908.jpg
 





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#10
"For that the power to distinguish between good and less good is the property of wisdom is evident surely even to the witless; so that the serpent was a benefactor rather than a destroyer of the human race." - Julian
I don't know who Julian is but this idea that the serpent is a benefactor of the human race is shared by Freemasonry and since so many men and women with political or corporate power are Masons it is quite understandable that the world has taken a turn for the worse.
 





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#11
@Karlysymon I could not even imagine life without work.

I'm glad to know that you appreciate one of the Greek myths.

First of all, the serpent was never identified as Satan in that particular narrative. Second, the connection between Serpent and Tree is found in many religions outside the Bible. Third, the Bible makes various concessions to the serpent, that it is crafty and shrewd and at one point, it became identified as a source of healing (Numbers 21). It's not always represented negatively.

I don't know who Julian is but this idea that the serpent is a benefactor of the human race is shared by Freemasonry and since so many men and women with political or corporate power are Masons it is quite understandable that the world has taken a turn for the worse.
The Freemasons are likely politically compromised. Their "mysticism", on the other hand, has come down to us in a distorted form. Albert Pike, Manly P. Hall, and Albert Mackey represent an older, purer Freemasonry. They recognized that the founders of religion cherished similar ideals, that the ancients had a much purer worship (inquiry into the laws of the universe), and that the nations each had their mysteries/cults, so they are a step ahead of Christians and dogmatic skeptics, but they contaminate these sentiments with cosmopolitan and revolutionary aims. And they maintain manifold errors in their interpretations of symbols and assessment of history. For instance, they associated the Essenes sect with the Pythagoreans because of their shared use of the tetractys and the small passing mention of Pythagoras visiting the Chaldeans and Hebrews.

@Illuminized might confirm, but I think it could be a reference to the man otherwise known as "Julian the Apostate (330-360 AD)," apostate from Christianity, that is, who also, among other things, reportedly tried to rebuild the Jewish Temple. In subsequent, especially Catholic writers, he is considered a sort of prelude to, or type of Antichrist.
Yes, that one. The Antichrist allegation is exaggerated.

It makes sense to ban Christians from teaching about Plato if they're going to represent him as inferior. I would not entrust someone like that with even translating the works of Plato.

Cyril's main concern was that many pagans were using Julian's works to critique Christians. It's a similar situation with Hierocles, who was the first to weaponize Apollonius of Tyana.

Julian was first and foremost a classical Roman emperor, or to be specific, a politician. This means he made it his principal goal to maintain the peace of Rome and saw to it that religious tolerance would be distributed fairly. He even tried to prop up the Jewish community to counterbalance the increasing Christian influence.

Marcellinus (who was tolerant of Christians) gives plain indication that Julian was going to build the temple and gives the reason for it: Julian was "eager to extend the memory of his reign by great works". The claim that he wanted to nullify the Christian prophecies with this feat is as absurd as saying that the Nazis adopted the theories of Hoerbiger just to snub Einstein. If he wanted to abolish Christianity, he could have propagandized about life on other worlds and propped up animals and plants, saying that humans are not superior to them.
 





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#12
Illuminized said:
First of all, the serpent was never identified as Satan in that particular narrative.
Second, the connection between Serpent and Tree is found in many religions outside the Bible. Third, the Bible makes various concessions to the serpent, that it is crafty and shrewd and at one point, it became identified as a source of healing (Numbers 21). It's not always represented
negatively.
That aside, what exactly did we gain from the Fall? As far as my eye can see, its death and destruction, how else would you explain the origin of death/decay?

OTOH, our actions don't seem to support that notion/belief. No one wants to die, we make Faustian pacts all the time, we are in hot pursuit of godhood...Where are the 'benefactor's' gifts?