Faith w/ Out Works: Do Works Save?

[Resistor]

I'm aware of that. Alan said he preferred to use his "common sense" but at the same time he believed in Reincarnation which is not exactly "common sense".

And all afterlifes are not "common sense" either.

 

[Alanantic]

Didn't you just said you used your "common sense", but now you're saying you believe in Reincarnation? That's not common sense, that's a belief system. Please tell more.

I did not say I believed in reincarnation. Krishna and Arjuna did, obviously. Also, one's common sense doesn't imply it's everybody's.

 

[floss]

I did not say I believed in reincarnation. Krishna and Arjuna did, obviously. Also, one's common sense doesn't imply it's everybody's.

So you don't believe in Reincarnation but kept quoting the Hindu's scriptures?

 

[Alanantic]

So you don't believe in Reincarnation but kept quoting the Hindu's scriptures?

Actually, I didn't say one way or the other. Beliefs can change from one moment to another. They aren't important to me. Why do you ask?

 

[Lyfe]

Bump

 

[elsbet]

Bump

@Lyfe said:​

Salvation and the fruits and works that follow are the workings and byproduct of the holy spirit and not mans attempts to achieve or maintain salvation through his own attempts.​

​

It is Gods work in an individual that produces these fruits and works of salvation.​

​

It is solely Gods work in man as Jesus said he is the vine and only IN HIM through being connected to this vine do we bring forth fruit, the father does the works in him and apart from him we can do nothing.​

This, of course.
Faith, and the divinely inspired actions or way of life, which may proceed from that Faith, cannot be separated.

No one can accomplish perfect rule-keeping in his own power... it is futile. Pursued, it will ultimately become an exercise in obsessive Self-Focus.

Spoiler

It is not the baptism of the Holy Spirit that changes people, but the power of the ascended Christ coming into their lives through the Holy Spirit.

We all too often separate things that the New Testament never separates. The baptism of the Holy Spirit is not an experience apart from Jesus Christ— it is the evidence of the ascended Christ.
OSWALD CHAMBERS

 

[TokiEl]

Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith.

Test yourselves.

Do you recognize that Jesus Christ is in you ?

If not you fail the test !


2 Cor 13:5​

 

[Lyfe]

I made this thread, because i think its important to differentiate between deeds done out of obligation(religion and man trying to maintain his salvation through works) and the actual work(fruit) of the holy spirit that results from spiritual rebirth. In my early days as a Christian I always had so much anxiety and I felt I could never measure up to Jesus standards. I started to do things out of fear and obligation. I would have been saved so much grief and anxiety had someone helped me understand allot of these concepts. I could never see God as a loving father, because all I could focus on was doing stuff that I thought I needed to do to go to heaven.

I later came to realize that everything I am now and even the desires I have to pray and be a light and witness for Jesus are completely a work of God in me. God made promise to change me and in faithfulness he has. Salvation is when God changes a man. It is the work that God does in a man that causes him to see the world through his eyes and his heart. It is completely supernatural. There is a massive difference between religiously motivated good deeds and good deeds just doing them as a result and extension of your new nature. The former are dead works, but the latter come naturally as a result of the spirit. People need to see God as a loving father and grow naturally by the power and leading and change by the spirit.

 

[elsbet]

I made this thread, because i think its important to differentiate between deeds done out of obligation(religion and man trying to maintain his salvation through works) and the actual work(fruit) of the holy spirit that results from spiritual rebirth. In my early days as a Christian I always had so much anxiety and I felt I could never measure up to Jesus standards. I started to do things out of fear and obligation. I would have been saved so much grief and anxiety had someone helped me understand allot of these concepts. I could never see God as a loving father, because all I could focus on was doing stuff that I thought I needed to do to go to heaven.

I later came to realize that everything I am now and even the desires I have to pray and be a light and witness for Jesus are completely a work of God in me. God made promise to change me and in faithfulness he has. Salvation is when God changes a man. It is the work that God does in a man that causes him to see the world through his eyes and his heart. It is completely supernatural. There is a massive difference between religiously motivated good deeds and good deeds just doing them as a result and extension of your new nature. The former are dead works, but the latter come naturally as a result of the spirit. People need to see God as a loving father and grow naturally by the power and leading and change by the spirit.

"It is completely supernatural."​

​

It really is.
Idk why, exactly, but it reminds me of the Calvin & Hobbes comic on lightning bugs.

Spoiler

​

 

[TokiEl]

Now imagine a poor guy selling trinkets came to your house... and you noticed he had no shoes on ?


What would you do ?

 

[elsbet]

Now imagine a poor guy selling trinkets came to your house... and you noticed he had no shoes on ?


What would you do ?

I wouldn't tell anyone.

 

[TokiEl]

I wouldn't tell anyone.

You would not tell that poor guy to wait while you call the local newspaper to come over.

Good good good. L0L

 

[Lyfe]

I think many read the passage in James about faith vs works and come away thinking they have to do certain things to prove the genuineness of their faith. The problem is when this leads to a salvation by works mentality. The bottomline is that if someone's endeavors aren't brought into fruition by the leading and inner change(produced) by the holy spirit then it only results in a dead work. God is not looking to encourage people in religion or dead works. He wants us to seek him to receive of him, to be changed by him, to do everything he has called us to do in and through the enabling of his spirit. We are called to be LED by the spirit. To be FILLED with the spirit. To PRAY in the spirit. To LIVE in the spirit

Jesus acctually said it was THE FATHER IN HIM that does the works. If someone has been spiritually reborn and made into a new creation(through the indwelling holy spirit) then they will in time come to manifest the fruit of the holy spirit. Jesus told his disciples he chose them to bear FRUIT. If we walk with God, seek him in prayer and communion, and allow his word to renew us then we are going to experience sanctification and inner change. The good works will come naturally as a result of his spirit at work inside us! It says in scripture that we are GODS WORKMANSHIP, CREATED(made anew) IN CHRIST JESUS for good WORKS. It is God WHO WORKS in us. If someone's endeavors aren't natural and led( prompted) by the holy spirit then it only brings about a dead work, but God is calling us from dead works to KNOW and serve him in the new and living way of THE SPIRIT!

The fruit of the spirit is a natural production from God's very own SEED and will come as a result of REAL faith in Christ. Genuine faith and belief in Christ always brings spiritual transformation that produces good WORKS, because of the FRUIT of the holy spirit. The fruit of the spirit is an evidence that someone has exercised real faith in Christ, because REAL faith in Christ always RESULTS in salvation and brings regeneration and spiritual rebirth. If a person is sanctified in Christ and not quenching his spirit then they will just naturally bear his fruit. You don't need to tell a tree to bear fruit it just naturally does. God is WORKING in his people to produce his FRUIT!

John 15:5 I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much FRUIT: for without me ye can do nothing.

Gal 5:22 But the FRUIT of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

John 14:10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but THE FATHER WHO DWELLS IN ME DOES HIS WORKS.

Phil 2:13 For it is God which WORKETH in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure.

Eph 2:10 For we are HIS WORKMANSHIP, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

1Cor 12:6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same GOD WHICH WORKETH all in all.
1Cor 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

 

[Lizard King]

The meek and obedient shall inherit the earth. But by the time they inherit it nothing much will be left so that is unfortunately the fly in the ointment. The concentration camps are full of meek and obedient people and one day shall be feasting on pie in the sky. While I doubt it says that in the Good Book it is written in my Book of Common Sense.

 

[Alanantic]

“Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.” -- Marcus Aurelius

 

[Daze]

The meek and obedient shall inherit the earth. But by the time they inherit it nothing much will be left so that is unfortunately the fly in the ointment. The concentration camps are full of meek and obedient people and one day shall be feasting on pie in the sky. While I doubt it says that in the Good Book it is written in my Book of Common Sense.

The meek shall inherit the earth means humble people shall gain heaven. Its not meant to be literal as God will destroy this creation entirely. Everything but him will perish. So much time will pass and then he will bring back the creation to be judged.

Common sense should make you realize there is a purpose behind absolutely everything. The system was not created for mere entertainment.

Just take a step back and look at how complicated everything is.


Only a fool thinks we arrived here by chance. Realize we have a Designer. The trick is figuring out what the Designer expects of us.




On topic, if belief alone could earn you heaven, what is the point in this life?

Zero. We are here to prove who is the best in deed.

 

[Lyfe]

The meek and obedient shall inherit the earth. But by the time they inherit it nothing much will be left so that is unfortunately the fly in the ointment. The concentration camps are full of meek and obedient people and one day shall be feasting on pie in the sky. While I doubt it says that in the Good Book it is written in my Book of Common Sense.

Is God in agreement with your book?

 

[Lyfe]

The meek shall inherit the earth means humble people shall gain heaven. Its not meant to be literal as God will destroy this creation entirely. Everything but him will perish. So much time will pass and then he will bring back the creation to be judged.

Common sense should make you realize there is a purpose behind absolutely everything. The system was not created for mere entertainment.

Just take a step back and look at how complicated everything is.
View attachment 87138

Only a fool thinks we arrived here by chance. Realize we have a Designer. The trick is figuring out what the Designer expects of us.




On topic, if belief alone could earn you heaven, what is the point in this life?

Zero. We are here to prove who is the best in deed.

Do your deeds meet God's standards? Are you good enough by your own merit to share in the presence of a perfect and holy God?

 

[Daze]

Do your deeds meet God's standards? Are you good enough by your own merit to share in the presence of a perfect and holy God?

As a human i try to the best of my ability. God knows our weaknesses and what we are capable of.

It is interesting how you have made a thread discouraging good deeds like feeding the poor and giving a kind word to your mother. Because you are arguing faith in God alone is good enough. What will you do on judgement day when you find out it wasn't?



There is no point for a creation that believes but doesn't do what God has commanded them to do.

• Do not neglect to do good and to share what you have, for such sacrifices are pleasing to God. – Hebrews 13:16
• Whoever is generous to the poor lends to the Lord, and he will repay him for his deed. – Proverbs 19:17
• Those who give freely gain even more; others hold back what they owe, becoming even poorer. – Proverbs 11:24

30 Charity Bible Verses That Will Inspire You To Help Others

If you want to know more about what helping the poor means in the Christian faith, these charity bible verses are a good start.

ofhsoupkitchen.org

 

[Lyfe]

As a human i try to the best of my ability. God knows our weaknesses and what we are capable of.

Its actually punishment to not be able to see God on judgement day as He is far more beautiful then minds could ever comprehend. God willing I'll be in his presence on the day of regret.

It is interesting how you have made a thread discouraging good deeds like feeding the poor and giving a kind word to your mother. Because you are arguing faith in God alone is good enough. What will you do on judgement day when you find out it wasn't?



There is no point for a creation that believes but doesn't do what God has commanded them to do.

• Do not neglect to do good and to share what you have, for such sacrifices are pleasing to God. – Hebrews 13:16
• Whoever is generous to the poor lends to the Lord, and he will repay him for his deed. – Proverbs 19:17
• Those who give freely gain even more; others hold back what they owe, becoming even poorer. – Proverbs 11:24

30 Charity Bible Verses That Will Inspire You To Help Others

If you want to know more about what helping the poor means in the Christian faith, these charity bible verses are a good start.

ofhsoupkitchen.org

Where exactly have I discouraged good deeds? I have been pretty consistent in pointing out that real faith does in fact result in charity. The problem is with how people falsely interpret what I have said.

Good works don't lead to salvation. They are a result and supernatural working of salvation. There is a difference.

You quoted the book of Hebrews. The same book quotes the OT and also says that without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins. Sin has a price and requires a ransom. It shows us that none of us can be in right standing with God based off of our own deeds and merit. You have a case that needs to be settled. You have sins that require a real atonement so your case can be legally dismissed. Jesus paid the ransom by the shedding of his blood. If you don't believe that then just look at all the blood of animals that was shed in the OT to make atonement for the sins of the people.