Exegesis of Isaiah 42

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#1
Isaiah 42 seems to have been acquired as a proof chapter for mention of Muhammad in the Bible....

Before I had visited this Forum, I had never come across that reading into Isaiah 42 and perhaps didn't I treat the view as one seriously held by anyone.

I love Isaiah 42 (and the way that 43 develops the themes).Maybe I like it so much because I have had for some time another very clear idea about the time and place the latter part of the chapter is dealing with...

So to @AspiringSoul, @Etagloc , @DesertRose and any of my other Islamic friends, I would be keen for you to set out your understanding of this chapter and (equally importantly, as context is essential) how that understanding flows into the next chapter.

I have my own ideas, but I'm happy to give the floor to those who feel there is a case to see Muhammad prophecied right in the middle of Isaiah...
 





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#2
Verses 1-9 are about Jesus/Christianity
Verses 10-17 are about Mohammed/Islam
The final verses are a condemnation of the Jews who having seen all of this from God refused to acknowledge it.

Also if you look at revelation 11...the 1260 days given to the gentiles to trample over the temple Mt...the outer court. That is about Islam. But the two witnesses is symbolic of Islam and Christianity rather than 2 literal prophets. If you look at it it says the antichrist will kill both of them and for 3.5 days the world will rejoice over their death and refuse them burial.
Then they will both be Resurrected.

That is a sign because both religions believe in Jesus Christ and that is why they are attacked. We also know the world hates both these religions.

Ironically I believe in the crucifixion and resurrection...that's a different topic but it's because I've studied the themes in depth and honestly don't feel the Muslims who enter into debates denying it ..know what they are on about.
In the same way those same Muslims interpret Isaiah 42:1-10 and also say that is Mohammed. So there is some degree of bs from the Muslim side because of their refusal to understand beyond the surface level. Most of those guys do it for attention and ego...and despite how I am...I don't bs when it comes to scripture. Eg Surah 17 does support the future promise to Isaac. I've never seen Muslims talk about that in a modern context to decide their course of action and stance towards Israel.
 





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#3
Verses 1-9 are about Jesus/Christianity
Verses 10-17 are about Mohammed/Islam
The final verses are a condemnation of the Jews who having seen all of this from God refused to acknowledge it.

Also if you look at revelation 11...the 1260 days given to the gentiles to trample over the temple Mt...the outer court. That is about Islam. But the two witnesses is symbolic of Islam and Christianity rather than 2 literal prophets. If you look at it it says the antichrist will kill both of them and for 3.5 days the world will rejoice over their death and refuse them burial.
Then they will both be Resurrected.

That is a sign because both religions believe in Jesus Christ and that is why they are attacked. We also know the world hates both these religions.

Ironically I believe in the crucifixion and resurrection...that's a different topic but it's because I've studied the themes in depth and honestly don't feel the Muslims who enter into debates denying it ..know what they are on about.
In the same way those same Muslims interpret Isaiah 42:1-10 and also say that is Mohammed. So there is some degree of bs from the Muslim side because of their refusal to understand beyond the surface level. Most of those guys do it for attention and ego...and despite how I am...I don't bs when it comes to scripture. Eg Surah 17 does support the future promise to Isaac. I've never seen Muslims talk about that in a modern context to decide their course of action and stance towards Israel.
An interesting response. Thank you @AspiringSoul
 





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#4
Verses 1-9 are about Jesus/Christianity
Verses 10-17 are about Mohammed/Islam
The final verses are a condemnation of the Jews who having seen all of this from God refused to acknowledge it.

Also if you look at revelation 11...the 1260 days given to the gentiles to trample over the temple Mt...the outer court. That is about Islam. But the two witnesses is symbolic of Islam and Christianity rather than 2 literal prophets. If you look at it it says the antichrist will kill both of them and for 3.5 days the world will rejoice over their death and refuse them burial.
Then they will both be Resurrected.

That is a sign because both religions believe in Jesus Christ and that is why they are attacked. We also know the world hates both these religions.

Ironically I believe in the crucifixion and resurrection...that's a different topic but it's because I've studied the themes in depth and honestly don't feel the Muslims who enter into debates denying it ..know what they are on about.
In the same way those same Muslims interpret Isaiah 42:1-10 and also say that is Mohammed. So there is some degree of bs from the Muslim side because of their refusal to understand beyond the surface level. Most of those guys do it for attention and ego...and despite how I am...I don't bs when it comes to scripture. Eg Surah 17 does support the future promise to Isaac. I've never seen Muslims talk about that in a modern context to decide their course of action and stance towards Israel.
Applying the LORD to the (alleged) prophet Muhammad is blasphemous. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah+42:10-17&version=KJV
Singing praise to the LORD is singing praise to God.

Jesus, the Son of God, second person of the Trinity fits that prophecy exactly. Those who follow Him come out of darkness and turn away from idols.
 





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#5
The Sick Rose
BY WILLIAM BLAKE

O Rose thou art sick.
The invisible worm,
That flies in the night
In the howling storm:

Has found out thy bed
Of crimson joy:
And his dark secret love
Does thy life destroy.

A famous poem by William Blake, but what does it mean and how do you go about decoding it? It is very easy to read into this text but what process would you follow to determine what Blake meant by these words himself?
 





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#6
The Sick Rose
BY WILLIAM BLAKE

O Rose thou art sick.
The invisible worm,
That flies in the night
In the howling storm:

Has found out thy bed
Of crimson joy:
And his dark secret love
Does thy life destroy.

A famous poem by William Blake, but what does it mean and how do you go about decoding it? It is very easy to read into this text but what process would you follow to determine what Blake meant by these words himself?
If possible, by the writer's own words, comparing his other poems, explanations by people who knew him personally.
Definitely not by people reading themselves into the works many centuries later.
 





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#7
Applying the LORD to the (alleged) prophet Muhammad is blasphemous. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah+42:10-17&version=KJV
Singing praise to the LORD is singing praise to God.

Jesus, the Son of God, second person of the Trinity fits that prophecy exactly. Those who follow Him come out of darkness and turn away from idols.
The Lord /Adonai
Is God alone not Jesus who is adoni.
Lesser lord...
Learn something for once don't come at me with bad arguments.
Those verses reflect Islamic theology of pure monotheism, talk about God destroying those who trust in idols, marching with zeal.
The places / people mentioned are Arab not Jewish.
No wonder when Jews were trying to build their messianic Israel in the 7th century so many Jews were living in Madina.
 





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#8
If possible, by the writer's own words, comparing his other poems, explanations by people who knew him personally.
Definitely not by people reading themselves into the works many centuries later.
With a view to breaking down the people and locations, I suggest taking one piece at a time...

So "The Rock" or "Sela" - where is it, Sela Medina or something contemporary with Isaiah?

Sela (Arabic: السلع‎, Hebrew: סֶּלַע‎, transliteration Sela‛, meaning rock; Arabic: as-Sala‛; Greek: πέτρα; Latin: petra) was the capital of Edom, situated in the great valley extending from the Dead Sea to the Red Sea (2 Kings 14:7). It was near Mount Hor, close by the desert of Zin. It is called "the rock" (Judges 1:36). When Amaziah of Judah took it he called it Joktheel (also spelled Jokteel (JPS) and Jectehel(DRB)) (q.v.) (Hebrew: יָקְתְאֵל‎, Yoqtĕ-’Ēl, "the blessedness of God" or "subdued by God";[1]Latin: Jectehel) or Kathoel (Greek: Καθοηλ) in the Septuagint. It is mentioned by the prophets (Isaiah 15:1; 16:1; Obadiah 1:3) as doomed to destruction.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sela_(Edom)

Petra was the Capital of Edom

obadiah-petra1.jpg

http://www.biblehistory.net/newsletter/petra.htm
 





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#9
The Jews and Christians got the biblical places very very wrong. Muslims preserved the authentic places just like Mt Sinai in actual Arabia.
Mt.sela is at Madina. Just like the wilderness of Paran is where Kedar lives.

I've talked about this stuff before. You can make up your own history but one only needs to look at the gensis events like the well of water that appeared to Hagar in her distress..then look at the zamzam water.
There are contemporary Jewish historians who have also identified many places in the Torah in the same manner and are more accepting of the Arab side as a real part of Bible history. The Christians don't have that capacity..they tend to just create their own history and geography by claiming all these special events and places were in dead end places like Petra and the Sinai peninsula.
Even Paul said Sinai is in Arabia.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sela_(Saudi_Arabia)



Also...
Since Isaiah 42:1-10 is about Jesus...then clearly verses 11-17 are post Christianity
Does this place Petra have any significant history in the last 2000 yrs?
Nope.

Although the Nabataean Kingdom became a client state for the Roman Empire in the first century BC, it was only in 106 AD that they lost their independence. Petra fell to the Romans, who annexed and renamed Nabataea to Arabia Petraea. Petra's importance declined as sea trade routes emerged, and after a 363 earthquake destroyed many structures. The Byzantine Era witnessed the construction of several Christian churches, but the city continued to decline, and by the early Islamic era became an abandoned place where only a handful of nomads lived. It remained unknown to the world until it was rediscovered in 1812 by Johann Ludwig Burckhardt.

Then you also have to consider that these events from verse 1-17 bring about the condemnation of the Jewish nation by God. God has told them "I've shown you many things but you didn't care"
You're suggesting Petra is one of those things even though it was forgotten for over 1100 years at least.
 





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#10
The Jews and Christians got the biblical places very very wrong. Muslims preserved the authentic places just like Mt Sinai in actual Arabia.
Mt.sela is at Madina. Just like the wilderness of Paran is where Kedar lives.

I've talked about this stuff before. You can make up your own history but one only needs to look at the gensis events like the well of water that appeared to Hagar in her distress..then look at the zamzam water.
There are contemporary Jewish historians who have also identified many places in the Torah in the same manner and are more accepting of the Arab side as a real part of Bible history. The Christians don't have that capacity..they tend to just create their own history and geography by claiming all these special events and places were in dead end places like Petra and the Sinai peninsula.
Even Paul said Sinai is in Arabia.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sela_(Saudi_Arabia)



Also...
Since Isaiah 42:1-10 is about Jesus...then clearly verses 11-17 are post Christianity
Does this place Petra have any significant history in the last 2000 yrs?
Nope.

Although the Nabataean Kingdom became a client state for the Roman Empire in the first century BC, it was only in 106 AD that they lost their independence. Petra fell to the Romans, who annexed and renamed Nabataea to Arabia Petraea. Petra's importance declined as sea trade routes emerged, and after a 363 earthquake destroyed many structures. The Byzantine Era witnessed the construction of several Christian churches, but the city continued to decline, and by the early Islamic era became an abandoned place where only a handful of nomads lived. It remained unknown to the world until it was rediscovered in 1812 by Johann Ludwig Burckhardt.

Then you also have to consider that these events from verse 1-17 bring about the condemnation of the Jewish nation by God. God has told them "I've shown you many things but you didn't care"
You're suggesting Petra is one of those things even though it was forgotten for over 1100 years at least.
I was just pointing out by way of analysis that Isaiah was more likely to mean the Sela that was contemporary to him rather than the one that was later named Mt Sela. Sela means "Rock" and so I can imagine it might well have been a popular name for mountains...

All I am doing here is trying to establish that there is not really an exclusive Islamic meaning to "Sela". You might disagree, others may make their own mind up on it.
 





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#11
I was just pointing out by way of analysis that Isaiah was more likely to mean the Sela that was contemporary to him rather than the one that was later named Mt Sela. Sela means "Rock" and so I can imagine it might well have been a popular name for mountains...

All I am doing here is trying to establish that there is not really an exclusive Islamic meaning to "Sela". You might disagree, others may make their own mind up on it.
The historical Sela in the OT is location unknown, we only know it's in Edomite territory. However
Kadesh and kadesh barnea also link historical desert of Paran with the same territory and hence historian like josephus chose to identify these places as Petra.
That doesn't mean it's accurate.

Opinion has gradually began to shift with people gaining more knowledge of history and places in the Arabian peninsula.
Theres also an element of bias because there aren't many who would want to identify places with Muslims.

So Petra is on one hand associated the desert of Paran and Sela too. And yet Petra has no evidence of such history Inc that it's the place where Israelites lived for 38 yrs.


Let the desert and its cities raise their voices, the villages where Kedar lives; let those living in Sela shout for joy; let them cry out from the mountaintops! - Isaiah 42:11 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah42:11&version=CJB

At least in a post Christian world...we can easily see this being true from the Muslim perspective, whilst Petra went to hell post Christianity.

You know what is interesting is that the 7 churches in Revelation are places that all became Muslim.

The places in the Bible..like Paran and sela..and Mt Sinai and the rock of Horeb etc all of a sudden have strong Muslim links.
And it's all thriving. Meanwhile you guys identify such places with places that have nothing going on. Eg the miraculous water source when Hagar and Ismael were under
God's protection...Christians identify it with Petra...
meanwhile Muslims have the zamzam water that's been drunk for over 1500 yrs by billions all over the world.
Same with the entire Muslim pilgrimage.
It does fulfill Isaiah 42 and all of this honours God...whilst Petra and the Sinai peninsula are wastelands.

Think about it.
 





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#12
In the time of David men were going back and forth from/to paran.
Teman is associated with Yemen.
Solomon was visited by the queen of Sheba which was Yemen.
Ie the geography of those times was larger than how it's been identified in contemporary times where all these places are in close proximity to Israeli and Jordan.
The Israelites wandered for 40 yrs.
 





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#13
In the time of David men were going back and forth from/to paran.
Teman is associated with Yemen.
Solomon was visited by the queen of Sheba which was Yemen.
Ie the geography of those times was larger than how it's been identified in contemporary times where all these places are in close proximity to Israeli and Jordan.
The Israelites wandered for 40 yrs.
The reason why Petra is an interesting location is that it connects with a future prophecy relating to a remnant of the Jews, therefore setting latter verses of Isaiah 42 at a particular time in history.

http://www.biblehistory.net/newsletter/petra.htm

This might well have prophetic singificance for the other people mentioned - Kedar...
 





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#14
That was pretty poor
I got excited thinking I'm about to read sth epic.
What Jesus said had nothing to do with the place called Petra, he was talking about Peter.
 





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#15
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#16
I was more interested in the observation many have made that a remnant of the Jews may flee to Petra during the second half of the Tribulation.

https://www1.cbn.com/cbnnews/2016/june/does-the-new-petra-discovery-hint-at-biblical-prophecy
Daniel 11 is about antiochus epiphanes
Matthew 24 which referenced Daniels prophecy...was about Daniel 7/9 about Titus.

Micah 2, Isaiah 63 don't have any reference to Petra...and any theme related to restoration in isaiah most likely refers to the post Babylon era.

That link is written by an idiot and speculates that Petra might have some importance one day..with no biblical proof.

The tribulation Jesus spoke of was fulfilled in 70ad by Titus.
The only future tribulation of Jews is the gog and Magog invasion when Jesus is already here. They will flee to the mountains of Judea not to Petra.

Matthew 24 is grossly misinterpreted.

It also has nothing to do with Isaiah 42s Sela where people will celebrate with Joy and sing God's praises...
Youre also making me go in circles....verses 1-17 in isa42 serve as a condemnation of Jews. Eg by their trespass the gentiles will be reckoned. It is not about Jews.
 





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#17
Daniel 11 is about antiochus epiphanes
Matthew 24 which referenced Daniels prophecy...was about Daniel 7/9 about Titus.

Micah 2, Isaiah 63 don't have any reference to Petra...and any theme related to restoration in isaiah most likely refers to the post Babylon era.

That link is written by an idiot and speculates that Petra might have some importance one day..with no biblical proof.

The tribulation Jesus spoke of was fulfilled in 70ad by Titus.
The only future tribulation of Jews is the gog and Magog invasion when Jesus is already here. They will flee to the mountains of Judea not to Petra.

Matthew 24 is grossly misinterpreted.

It also has nothing to do with Isaiah 42s Sela where people will celebrate with Joy and sing God's praises...
Youre also making me go in circles....verses 1-17 in isa42 serve as a condemnation of Jews. Eg by their trespass the gentiles will be reckoned. It is not about Jews.
Not to derail from the point of the discussion, but you have to admit that when a view is not in line with your own, the person who holds it is, more often than not a simpleton ;-)

If you were a Christian, you would be a "Preterist". In this interpretation, if an event occurs that resonates with a prophecy, it is then considered fulfilled (and hence "used up").
 





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#18
The Jews and Christians got the biblical places very very wrong. Muslims preserved the authentic places just like Mt Sinai in actual Arabia.
Mt.sela is at Madina. Just like the wilderness of Paran is where Kedar lives.

Psalm 120 "In my distress I cried to the Lord,
And He heard me.
2 Deliver my soul, O Lord, from lying lips
And from a deceitful tongue.


3 What shall be given to you,
Or what shall be done to you,
You false tongue?
4 Sharp arrows of the warrior,
With coals of the broom tree!


5 Woe is me, that I dwell in Meshech,
That I dwell among the tents of Kedar!

6 My soul has dwelt too long
With one who hates peace.
7 I am for peace;
But when I speak, they are for war."
 





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#19
Also interesting from an earlier chapter in Isaiah (21)

13 The burden upon Arabia. In the forest in Arabia shall ye lodge, O ye travelling companies of Dedanim.

14 The inhabitants of the land of Tema brought water to him that was thirsty, they prevented with their bread him that fled.

15 For they fled from the swords, from the drawn sword, and from the bent bow, and from the grievousness of war.

16 For thus hath the Lord said unto me, Within a year, according to the years of an hireling, and all the glory of Kedar shall fail:

17 And the residue of the number of archers, the mighty men of the children of Kedar, shall be diminished: for the Lord God of Israel hath spoken it.
 





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#20
Psalm 120 "In my distress I cried to the Lord,
And He heard me.
2 Deliver my soul, O Lord, from lying lips
And from a deceitful tongue.


3 What shall be given to you,
Or what shall be done to you,
You false tongue?
4 Sharp arrows of the warrior,
With coals of the broom tree!


5 Woe is me, that I dwell in Meshech,
That I dwell among the tents of Kedar!

6 My soul has dwelt too long
With one who hates peace.
7 I am for peace;
But when I speak, they are for war."

that was when David was alive, the past, before Jesus Christ.
The isaiah 42 prophecy is post-Christ

you guys just can't stop scoring Ls on this forum.