Early Followers of Christ believed in Reincarnation

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#41
The Bible does indeed teach on Body, Soul and Spirit, but not quite in the way you envisage (which is much closer to Platonic ideas of “Spirit=Good” “Body=Bad”).

Don’t forget that before the Fall, Adam was a tripartite being, complete with a body that God declared “very good”...

It's not that the body = bad, rather it's just realising that you are not it. The human body is an amazingly designed machine that can self reproduce and self repairs, etc. (as long as it's not too badly damaged):

TWH, 3:31 The human body is nothing more than a very sophisticated (by human-standards), organic living
computer, that self-reproduces and self-repairs (if it is not TOO badly damaged). It is a combination
of smaller computers, e.g. brain; kidneys; liver; etc., collectively making up the whole, pre-
programmed to have selfish animal-instincts, that your soul has to learn to overcome. The physical
human brain operates the body and its emotions, but your mind and its feelings belong to your soul.
That is why Jesus said that the flesh is worthless, and that it is only the spirit (soul - the REAL you)
that has value (John 3:6 & 6:63).

But as wonderful as it is, the human body is at the same time the evidence of the Fall. -

"The human body, wonderful as it is, is in reality the evidence of man's disobedience. It is unsanctified flesh, diminished in Spirit; "dead" in sin. The result of Satanic power, it is the medium through which he acts. The carnal man is at enmity with God - Romans 8:7-9*. Man, left in that power would progressively become more evil in all his ways, with the violation of the body and its utter debasement being the delight of the creature for its new master - Satan.

* Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to The Law of God, neither indeed can it be.
8:8 So then they that are in the ways of flesh cannot please God.
8:9 But ye are not of the flesh, but of the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you (Gal. 2:20). Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is not his.


This is the complete denial of the "I AM"'s role for man and woman, and the fidelity and honour they are called upon to give their bodies, created Temples in which the very Breath of Life was placed. Unless this "unclean" body is cleansed and its "nakedness" covered by the "redemption that is in Christ Jesus" it is without hope. That is why Christ said to Nicodemus that he must be born again as his spirit-being or he would never see the Kingdom of God; as is recorded in the Gospel of John ch. 3.

In order to bring the sinful human body, to the nearest approach to its original "very good" state, Divine Law was given. In obedience before the Fall, husband and wife were as one body, indivisible. In obedience afterwards, when the individual accepts "the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" then husband and wife are again as one body, indivisible."

Source:"This Is A Great Mystery: Marriage Guidance"
 





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#42
Hi Wigi. Thank you for your reply. Hope you're having a good day.

What you say violate this verse :

"For He remembered that they were but flesh, A breath that passes away and does not come again."
Psalms 78:39

Either I believe you or I believe the Bible.
King of kings' Bible, Psalm 78:39 For He remembered that they (believed that they) [were only] flesh; a wind that passeth away, and cometh not again.

Catholics also believe in a purgatory but is it Biblical? Because Jesus clearly explained in a parable that the world doesn't work like that :

“There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. “Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’ But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented.
Luke 16:19‭, ‬22‭-‬25

By your logic the rich man should have had a second chance, or even a third chance ect ect if he choosed to be a tyrant, a crusader, a dictator, a banker during his 'next lives'.
Well, the rich man is said to be still alive in the parable, isn't he? He is still in Hades (planet earth).

Psalm
16:10 For Thou wilt not leave my soul in hell (planet Earth); neither wilt Thou suffer Thine Holy One to see corruption.

116:3 The sorrows of death compassed me, and the pains of hell got hold upon me: I found trouble and sorrow.

139:7 Where shall I go from thy spirit? Or where shall I flee from Thy presence?
139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, Thou [art] there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, Thou [art there].

Galatians
6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, THAT shall he also reap.
6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth [according] to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap Life everlasting.

The problem with your reasoning it's that the number of souls that needs to be saved should decrease over time.
The number should decrease. But, because of organized religions having placed themselves in people's way, this has not been happening, because the souls sent to the earth are not learning the lessons that they are supposed to have been learning (i.e. not getting successfully rehabilitated; not learning) in order to be allowed to go back home, precisely because of the effect that organized religions have had on the world.

Satan invented organized religions to prevent people (the souls) from being able to learn what it is that they really need to learn, which is only possible by following and putting Christ's True Teachings into practice, in our daily lives, and living by them (believe... by-live.. live by) and not just paying a mere lip-service to the idea, or giving money to organized religions (satan's invention).

Yet human population increase so it means that you should also believe that some people enter this world with fewer second chances to be saved before they run out of time?
I watched a short documentary last night, in which it was being discussed that the Earth's population is in reality decreasing at the moment, and not increasing like we are being told.
No it's not biblical and that doesn't make any sense.
God is always fair to everyone and in all things, and He knows the number of bodies exactly, when they are born and when they die (and also causes it to happen). So He of course also knows how many chances each soul has had, etc. and makes sure that everyone is treated fairly.

There also can't be many more bodies than there are souls to use them:

TWH 3:169 Human bodies HAVE to die, or there would be no progress; no “fresh-starts”; no way to
control the population-explosion, and also, no way to allow nature’s natural process to keep the
breed healthy, young and strong. You can not have many more bodies, than there are souls to use
them. Bodies were only designed to be prison-cells for the souls (Beings/Jinns), and are themselves
worthless.
 





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Wigi

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#43
Psalm 78:39 For He remembered that they (believed that they) [were only] flesh; a wind that passeth away, and cometh not again.
But you're adding words to the scripture to say something it's not saying in all the versions i've found stating that one's life doesn't come back again because we only live once here.

Well, the rich man is said to be still alive in the parable, isn't he? He is still in Hades (planet earth).
Because the soul doesn't cease to exist after a physical death do they?
Also, what about the part where it mentions that he died and got buried then this :

"Then he said, ‘I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house, for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment."
Luke 16:27‭-‬28

If the rich man is still on earth, he should simply go and tell them these things himself right ? But he can't since he's not on earth. That's pretty obvious, as obvious as the fact that he's not getting more lives to start all over again.

The number should decrease. But, because of organized religions having placed themselves in people's way, this has not been happening because the souls coming to earth are not learning the lessons that they are supposed to be learning (not getting successfully rehabilitated) in order to be allowed to go back home.
But since everyone stays on earth by your logic and nobody could keep memories how could you expect from them to not do the same mistakes over and over again and not become even worst persons after a dozen generations if you add in this equation a sinful nature that worsen the situation?

I watched a short documentary last night, in which it was being discussed that the Earth's population is in reality decreasing at the moment, and not increasing like we are being told.
Between 1950 and 2019, human population has increased a lot and it's proven by statistics and the fact that our cities grow bigger and our societies consume more energies than ever. It means that you should also believe that some people enter this world with fewer second chances to be saved compared to people who spent centuries doing what they want with their lives.

No, really that doesn't make any sense.

God is always fair to everyone and in all things, and He knows the number of bodies exactly, when they are born and when they die (and also causes it to happen). So He of course also knows how many chances each soul has had, etc. and makes sure that everyone is treated fairly.

There also can't be many more bodies than there are souls to use them:

TWH 3:169 Human bodies HAVE to die, or there would be no progress; no “fresh-starts”; no way to



control the population-explosion, and also, no way to allow nature’s natural process to keep the



breed healthy, young and strong. You can not have many more bodies, than there are souls to use



them. Bodies were only designed to be prison-cells for the souls (Beings/Jinns), and are themselves



worthless.


It's pleasant to the ear but none of that is even remotely biblical. That's the problem.
 





Phithx

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#44
Perhaps people get reincarnation confused with Resurrection?
Life is too beautiful and enjoyable to give up. I'm sure whoever created the idea of reincarnation couldn't bear the thought to just stop living. To make themselves feel better they created this concept of the continuation of life after death.

Because God's original purpose was for man to live forever, his purpose has not changed. God can and will do away with death. 1 Corinthians 15:54,55
In the future Yahweh will bring people back from the dead, no matter where they died. Revelation 20:13

Even though Jesus himself was resurrected, Lazarus, the Nain's widow's son, the daughter of Jairus, among others Some people still didn't believe in resurrection.

If personally find reincarnation confusing and it doesn't make sense. According to this teaching, how many times can a person's spirit live on?
The Bible's very clear. There's Nothing else going on after death. The life or "spirit" is out of the body, not a ghost, the life the body had is snuffed out, gone. Then people are dead until Yahweh and Jesus say it's time to come back to life and then be judged. Not confusing, very simple. The way God wants things to be.
Have a look at this really nice movie, then come back, and we'll talk further if you like.

Defending your life https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0101698/
Have you seen the movie yet please? Not that I mean to put pressure on you.
 





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#45
I have seen this used as an example of reincarnation before...

It is a example of the use of the apparent meaning of a verse divorced from it’s wider understanding.

Elijah didn’t die - he was caught up into heaven for a return later as one of the “Two Witnesses”. As these arrive prior to the Messiah establishing the Kingdom, IF the Jews had repented and recognised their Messiah, history would have taken a different turn. They did not, so John was the voice of one crying in the wilderness, but nonetheless, his words were a witness against that generation.

During the Tribulation, Elijah will return to testify to the generation of those who have rejected the salvation offered by Jesus.

As Elijah did not die, this allusion cannot be used to affirm biblical support for reincarnation.
evidence?
 





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#46
But you're adding words to the scripture to say something it's not saying in all the versions i've found stating that one's life doesn't come back again because we only live once here.
The words in parenthesis in the King of kings' Bible are the explanatory notes, that help make it easier to understand.

Because the soul doesn't cease to exist after a physical death do they?
Correct! But what does organized religion teach people about who and what they are? They teach people that they are a human with a soul. Don't they?

This is backwards. Because in reality you are not a human (an animal) that has a soul.

You ARE a soul, that (temporarily) has a human. Think about it.

Also, what about the part where it mentions that he died and got buried then this :

"Then he said, ‘I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house, for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment."
Luke 16:27‭-‬28
It is a parable, that is meant to show people something. Remember what Jesus said about it:

Matthew
13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of The Kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

(because they were not "babes", not "born again" of/as their spirit-being (as Christ said a person must be, in order to be able to see The Kingdom and enter into it) because they were still clinging to the false belief (the lie - from satan) that they were only human).

If the rich man is still on earth, he should simply go and tell them these things himself right ?
Not if he is in a new body, in a different country somewhere far away so that he can't.
But he can't since he's not on earth.
As above.
That's pretty obvious, as obvious as the fact that he's not getting more lives to start all over again.
Again, it's a parable. In other words, that is to say it's meaning is not obvious! Except to people who have been born again (of/as their spirit-being, because to them it does make sense because they have obtained the spiritual eye-sight (through being born again) to be able to "see" it). Remember, Christ also said He came to give sight unto "the blind" (i.e. people who still think that they are only human - and which was also demonstrated physically, through the healing of physically blind people, to show people that He came to earth to help the people to see, who previously couldn't). The truth is hidden from the (worldy) wise and prudent and is revealed unto babes (people who become born again of/as spirit - as their spirit-Being, which is not a human animal).

But since everyone stays on earth by your logic and nobody could keep memories how could you expect from them to not do the same mistakes over and over again and not become even worst persons after a dozen generations if you add in this equation a sinful nature that worsen the situation?
You are asking some good questions, which are all explained in The Way home, so perhaps you should consider reading it. I've pasted the answer from it for you below.

TWH, 3:97 Each time that a human-animal-body, that you have been using, dies, you are unlocked from it
and taken onto the Astral Plain (Paradise) (which is here, but in another dimension, that cannot be
seen with human-eyes), where you are asked, what you have learned, and you have your now past
human-lifetime, that you have just lived, shown to you, and you are told (paradise - “para dice” – in
order to be told) what you have done right, and what you have done wrong. That life is then
summarized, and the evil; that you have learned in that lifetime; is erased from your memory, along
with which human you were, but the good you have learned is retained. You are then sent back,
onto this material plain, and locked-inside another body, to learn some more. The kind of body and
surroundings will vary, depending on whether you are to be punished and taught humility, or
whether you are to be rewarded.
3:98 You can not remember what human you were previously, because that would cause you, and
everyone else, a lot of pain, e.g. if an old man died and came back as a baby, remembering who he
had been, and went to see his wife (now his widow), from his previous-lifetime, it would cause her;
himself and his new parents, a lot of pain and would serve no useful purpose. Another reason, that
you are not allowed to remember what human you were, is because; being the materialistic, selfish
people that you are; if you could remember who you had been, you would go and try to claim what
were your possessions. Wouldn’t you?
3:99 As the object of being here, is to learn to be unselfish; good and un-materialistic; allowing you
to remember would be counterproductive. Also, you wouldn’t want to be able to remember being a
murderer, or a rapist, or being murdered, would you?
3:100 What you do remember is all the good that you have learned. All those things that you
KNOW are right; and that no-one, in your present-lifetime, has taught you; you have learned in your
previous lifetimes.

In order to gain a full and complete understanding of how it works, you will need to read, study and digest the contents of the whole Book, that is called "The Way home or face The Fire" (the Title of which, is self-explanatory)

Between 1950 and 2019, human population has increased a lot and it's proven by statistics and the fact that our cities grow bigger and our societies consume more energies than ever. It means that you should also believe that some people enter this world with fewer second chances to be saved compared to people who spent centuries doing what they want with their lives.
Why should it mean that? God is well able to keep an account as well as that He is fair and Just in all things. So, no one is being treated unfairly.
No, really that doesn't make any sense.
As above, God is always fair to all and since He is Perfect, He always keeps a perfect account of all things.
It's pleasant to the ear but none of that is even remotely biblical. That's the problem.
I'm glad you say that, but are you really sure that it is not biblical? Does it not make more sense, that God (Who IS Love) would in fact design things to work exactly like this, so that the people can have many chances and can also have fresh starts, if they didn't get it right that time (or the next, or the next, etc.) all with guidance and help and encouragement along The Way? Remember that it says He does not take any pleasure in the wicked, that they should die:

Ezekiel 18:23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord "I AM": [and] not that he should return from his ways, and live?

1 Timothy 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the Knowledge of The Truth.

If people only ever got to have one single chance EVER, like the churches have all kept saying (...? keeping in mind, that God can do anything, since He is All powerful) then how could that possibly be? What does not make sense, and what is not even remotely biblical is what the church has told people. It's they that are not even remotely biblical*

* - please also read this (short) post, which is about them:
https://vigilantcitizenforums.com/t...st-believed-in-reincarnation.6656/post-246816

So who is right, they (greedy, evil fake religious people)? or God (Who is Love)?

They have been telling people for centuries, that absolutely everyone only ever gets ONE (singular - 1) chance ONLY (even though God is Merciful) and so people need to come to them to get to obtain salvation to get into heaven. God however, says that they have NO authority whatsoever, and that they (and all their false legislation) do not even exist.

TWH 9:73 What an incredible BUSINESS - selling forgiveness for sins - and what a confidence-trick.
Priests can NOT forgive your sins, they are conning you for money, “Protection-money”. How are
they going to protect you from God, when, as far as God is concerned, they do not even exist (Matt.
23:8-9)?
 





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Phithx

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#47
I have seen this used as an example of reincarnation before...

It is a example of the use of the apparent meaning of a verse divorced from it’s wider understanding.

Elijah didn’t die - he was caught up into heaven for a return later as one of the “Two Witnesses”. As these arrive prior to the Messiah establishing the Kingdom, IF the Jews had repented and recognised their Messiah, history would have taken a different turn. They did not, so John was the voice of one crying in the wilderness, but nonetheless, his words were a witness against that generation.

During the Tribulation, Elijah will return to testify to the generation of those who have rejected the salvation offered by Jesus.

As Elijah did not die, this allusion cannot be used to affirm biblical support for reincarnation.
Just to be precise: John referred to Elias/ Elisha not Elijah. The same 'Being' called John in that life inhabited the 'human' body Elisha in that former life. Human+Being. One Being two or more human bodies/lives.

King of kings' Bible Matthew 3:14 But John (Elias - Elisha - 17:12-13) forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized by thee, and comest thou to me?

And it's proved who the Two Witnesses are, and they're in trouble.

There's a short but intensive expose here.

Agreed EliJAH was prophesied to return.
 





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