Early Followers of Christ believed in Reincarnation

Lisa

Superstar
Joined
Mar 13, 2017
Messages
8,450
Likes
4,036
#2
Why would believers in Christ believe in reincarnation when they knew Jesus was coming back?

‭‭1 Thessalonians‬ ‭4:16-17‬ ‭
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.​
 





Joined
Mar 15, 2017
Messages
8,370
Likes
12,399
#4
bkos of the sacrifice god made unto JesusChrist , there will be reincarnation (repeat of life) until the repenting that JesusChrist accepts
Are we to conclude that the early Christians were unaware of the letter to the Hebrews?

“And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,”
Hebrews 9:27
 





Phithx

Established
Joined
Nov 5, 2019
Messages
232
Likes
225
#5
Are we to conclude that the early Christians were unaware of the letter to the Hebrews?

“And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,”
Hebrews 9:27
King of kings' Bible Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto (the "Self" of) men once to die, but then after this The Judgment:
 





Last edited:

Phithx

Established
Joined
Nov 5, 2019
Messages
232
Likes
225
#6
Why would believers in Christ believe in reincarnation when they knew Jesus was coming back?

‭‭1 Thessalonians‬ ‭4:16-17‬ ‭​

For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.​
King of kings' Bible 1 Thessalonians
4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the Archangel (Michael), and with the trump of God: and the dead (to "Self") in Christ shall rise first:
4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the "Clouds", to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
 





Phithx

Established
Joined
Nov 5, 2019
Messages
232
Likes
225
#8
Reincarnation is not a Christian doctrine.
The Way home or face The Fire 2:8 The seasons of nature were intended to teach, that Spring, with its birth, both of vegetation and animals, which was followed by Summer, the time of growth; followed by Autumn, the time of maturing and consolidation; in turn followed by Winter, the time of withering and dying (snow- coloured hair and wrinkles), was to be followed again by Spring, and re-birth. All of this was designed, to show you about human “re-incarnation”, or perpetual human “life after death”, until you either get it right; regain your divinity and go home; or run out of time, and are executed.
 





Joined
Mar 13, 2017
Messages
4,845
Likes
6,346
#9
The Way home or face The Fire2:8 The seasons of nature were intended to teach, that Spring, with its birth, both of vegetation and animals, which was followed by Summer, the time of growth; followed by Autumn, the time of maturing and consolidation; in turn followed by Winter, the time of withering and dying (snow- coloured hair and wrinkles), was to be followed again by Spring, and re-birth. All of this was designed, to show you about human “re-incarnation”, or perpetual human “life after death”, until you either get it right; regain your divinity and go home; or run out of time, and are executed.
Yikes, well, those are some words, alright.

The seasons weren’t instituted until after the flood, for one thing, and regardless, “Christian” reincarnation has to get past Hebrews 9:27.
 





Joined
Jul 20, 2019
Messages
960
Likes
743
#10
John The Baptist is (allegedly) Elijah, from the book of Matthew:

"From the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven has been subjected to violence, and violent people have been raiding it. For all the Prophets and the Law prophesied until John. And if you are willing to accept it, he is the Elijah who was to come. Whoever has ears, let them hear."
- Matthew 11:12-15

"But I tell you, Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but have done to him everything they wished. In the same way the Son of Man is going to suffer at their hands."
- Matthew 17:12
 





Joined
Jun 4, 2017
Messages
4,115
Likes
5,175
#11
King of kings' Bible Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto (the "Self" of) men once to die, but then after this The Judgment:
From your link--

Christ came to set up His Kingdom using His Servant NATION Israel (the British), not Judah (the Jewish), as a foundation for it and then by implementing the NATIONAL Laws; Statutes; Judgements; Economic Policy; Agricultural Policy and healthy balanced diet, that He gave to Israel (the British), through Moses, at Horeb, in Sinai, to gradually graft the Gentile nations into Israel, and make the whole world into the Kingdom of Israel - God's Kingdom on Earth, voluntarily.​
Then the whole world would be at peace, living voluntarily in harmony with each other and with nature and God...
You believe that these people are the Chosen?
They certainly agree... and the Queen owns an enormous part of the world, already. That's about as mainstream as it gets.
 





Joined
Mar 15, 2017
Messages
3,883
Likes
6,546
#12
King of kings' Bible 1 Thessalonians
4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the Archangel (Michael), and with the trump of God: and the dead (to "Self") in Christ shall rise first:
4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the "Clouds", to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Please give a link to a review of "King of King's bible".

It can be as simple as a link to Wikipedia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_James_Version

One condition : it MUST be from a NON Jahtruth believer's website.

Thanks in advance.
 





Joined
Jan 10, 2019
Messages
676
Likes
1,251
#13
"...The ancient philosophers of the East had a knowledge of this doctrine, the general nature of which they might have acquired by reasoning similar to the above, or by the same means by which they acquired a knowledge of the Neros . This is not inconsistent with the doctrine of a future judgment and a state of reward and punishment in another world . Why should not the soul transmigrate, and after the day of judgment (a figure) live again in the next world in some new body? Here are all the leading doctrines of the ancients. I see nothing in them absurd- nothing contrary to the moral attributes of God, and nothing contrary even to the doctrines of Jesus of Nazareth.

It has been thought that the doctrine of the pre-existence of souls may be found in the New Testament. Many of the early fathers of the Christians held the doctrine of the Metempsychosis (Reincarnation), which they defended on several texts of the New Testament. It was an opinion which had a very general circulation both in the East and in the West . It was held by the Pharisees (or Persees as they ought to be called) among the Jews ; and among the Christians by Origen, Chalcidius, (if he were a Christian,) Synesius, and by the Simonians, Basilidians, Valentiniens, Marcionites, and the Gnostics in general. It was held by the Chinese and among the most learned of the Greeks, by Plato and Pythagoras. Thus this doctrine was believed by nearly all the great and good of every religion, and of every nation and age ; and though the present race has not the smallest information more than its ancestors on this subject, yet the doctrine has not now a single votary in the Western part of the world." -Higgins
 





Joined
Mar 15, 2017
Messages
8,370
Likes
12,399
#14
John The Baptist is (allegedly) Elijah, from the book of Matthew:

"From the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven has been subjected to violence, and violent people have been raiding it. For all the Prophets and the Law prophesied until John. And if you are willing to accept it, he is the Elijah who was to come. Whoever has ears, let them hear."
- Matthew 11:12-15

"But I tell you, Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but have done to him everything they wished. In the same way the Son of Man is going to suffer at their hands."
- Matthew 17:12
I have seen this used as an example of reincarnation before...

It is a example of the use of the apparent meaning of a verse divorced from it’s wider understanding.

Elijah didn’t die - he was caught up into heaven for a return later as one of the “Two Witnesses”. As these arrive prior to the Messiah establishing the Kingdom, IF the Jews had repented and recognised their Messiah, history would have taken a different turn. They did not, so John was the voice of one crying in the wilderness, but nonetheless, his words were a witness against that generation.

During the Tribulation, Elijah will return to testify to the generation of those who have rejected the salvation offered by Jesus.

As Elijah did not die, this allusion cannot be used to affirm biblical support for reincarnation.
 





Joined
Jul 20, 2019
Messages
960
Likes
743
#15
I have seen this used as an example of reincarnation before...

It is a example of the use of the apparent meaning of a verse divorced from it’s wider understanding.

Elijah didn’t die - he was caught up into heaven for a return later as one of the “Two Witnesses”. As these arrive prior to the Messiah establishing the Kingdom, IF the Jews had repented and recognised their Messiah, history would have taken a different turn. They did not, so John was the voice of one crying in the wilderness, but nonetheless, his words were a witness against that generation.

During the Tribulation, Elijah will return to testify to the generation of those who have rejected the salvation offered by Jesus.

As Elijah did not die, this allusion cannot be used to affirm biblical support for reincarnation.
An Angel confirms it:

Then an angel of the Lord appeared to him, standing at the right side of the altar of incense. When Zechariah saw him, he was startled and was gripped with fear. But the angel said to him: “Do not be afraid, Zechariah; your prayer has been heard. Your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you are to call him John. He will be a joy and delight to you, and many will rejoice because of his birth, for he will be great in the sight of the Lord. He is never to take wine or other fermented drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit even before he is born. He will bring back many of the people of Israel to the Lord their God. And he will go on before the Lord, in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the parents to their children and the disobedient to the wisdom of the righteous—to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.”
- Luke 1:11-17

Jesus confirms it a second time, even more explicitly:

And His disciples asked Him, saying, "Why then do the scribes say that Elijah must come first?" Jesus answered and said to them, "Indeed, Elijah truly is coming first and will restore all things. But I say to you that Elijah has come already, and they did not know him but did to him whatever they wished. Likewise the Son of Man is also about to suffer at their hands." Then the disciples understood that He spoke to them of John the Baptist.
- Matthew 17:10-13

Whether or not Elijah died is completely irrelevant, when John the Baptist himself had a miraculous birth.
And as the ending of Malachi 4 states:

“Remember the law of my servant Moses, the decrees and laws I gave him at Horeb for all Israel. “See, I will send the prophet Elijah to you before that great and dreadful day of the Lord comes. He will turn the hearts of the parents to their children, and the hearts of the children to their parents; or else I will come and strike the land with total destruction.”
- Malachi 4:4-6
 





Joined
Mar 15, 2017
Messages
8,370
Likes
12,399
#16
An Angel confirms it:

Then an angel of the Lord appeared to him, standing at the right side of the altar of incense. When Zechariah saw him, he was startled and was gripped with fear. But the angel said to him: “Do not be afraid, Zechariah; your prayer has been heard. Your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you are to call him John. He will be a joy and delight to you, and many will rejoice because of his birth, for he will be great in the sight of the Lord. He is never to take wine or other fermented drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit even before he is born. He will bring back many of the people of Israel to the Lord their God. And he will go on before the Lord, in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the parents to their children and the disobedient to the wisdom of the righteous—to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.”
- Luke 1:11-17

Jesus confirms it a second time, even more explicitly:

And His disciples asked Him, saying, "Why then do the scribes say that Elijah must come first?" Jesus answered and said to them, "Indeed, Elijah truly is coming first and will restore all things. But I say to you that Elijah has come already, and they did not know him but did to him whatever they wished. Likewise the Son of Man is also about to suffer at their hands." Then the disciples understood that He spoke to them of John the Baptist.
- Matthew 17:10-13

Whether or not Elijah died is completely irrelevant, when John the Baptist himself had a miraculous birth.
And as the ending of Malachi 4 states:

“Remember the law of my servant Moses, the decrees and laws I gave him at Horeb for all Israel. “See, I will send the prophet Elijah to you before that great and dreadful day of the Lord comes. He will turn the hearts of the parents to their children, and the hearts of the children to their parents; or else I will come and strike the land with total destruction.”
- Malachi 4:4-6
There is an interesting tie-in to the cryptic verse from Exodus 7:-

1So the Lord said to Moses: “See, I have made you as God to Pharaoh, and Aaron your brother shall be your prophet.

The word “as” is implied by the concept, but absent from the text. Did the Jews believe that Moses was God? I think not...

https://www.vigilantcitizenforums.com/threads/the-mystery-of-moses-and-pharaoh.6468/
 





Joined
Jul 20, 2019
Messages
960
Likes
743
#17
There is an interesting tie-in to the cryptic verse from Exodus 7:-

1So the Lord said to Moses: “See, I have made you as God to Pharaoh, and Aaron your brother shall be your prophet.

The word “as” is implied by the concept, but absent from the text. Did the Jews believe that Moses was God? I think not...

https://www.vigilantcitizenforums.com/threads/the-mystery-of-moses-and-pharaoh.6468/
Elohim doesn't mean "deity" or "YHWH". If you know anything at all about the word Elohim, you'd know that it means a lot of things and varies in it's usage heavily throughout the Tanakh (Old Testament).
Also, a literal translation of that passage would render "I have made you an Elohim". In the context of Exodus 7:1, it denotes a judge and a chastiser.

BUT if you want to suggest it means "as God", then maybe we can get back onto track with @Axl888 and establish Moses as part of the Trinity? (re: Genesis 1:26) sounds good to me.
 





Joined
Mar 15, 2017
Messages
8,370
Likes
12,399
#18
Elohim doesn't mean "deity" or "YHWH". If you know anything at all about the word Elohim, you'd know that it means a lot of things and varies in it's usage heavily throughout the Tanakh (Old Testament).
Also, a literal translation of that passage would render "I have made you an Elohim". In the context of Exodus 7:1, it denotes a judge and a chastiser.

BUT if you want to suggest it means "as God", then maybe we can get back onto track with @Axl888 and establish Moses as part of the Trinity? (re: Genesis 1:26) sounds good to me.
I don’t think you have quite grasped what I was saying, @Infinityloop -

Scripture frequently takes up the name of one person and applies it by attribute to another, for illustrative reasons.

You may be familiar with the “King of Tyre” in Ezekiel 28... No doubt there was a literal king in Tyre, but Ezekiel goes on to use him as a metaphor for Satan. The King of Tyre was not Satan (though he may well have been a bad man), Moses was not God and John the Baptist was not Elijah.

To strain linguistics in such a way would seem to me to be obtuse, and akin to the thinking that would wish to find Apotheosis in the baptism of Jesus.
 





Joined
Jul 20, 2019
Messages
960
Likes
743
#19
I don’t think you have quite grasped what I was saying, @Infinityloop -

Scripture frequently takes up the name of one person and applies it by attribute to another, for illustrative reasons.

You may be familiar with the “King of Tyre” in Ezekiel 28... No doubt there was a literal king in Tyre, but Ezekiel goes on to use him as a metaphor for Satan. The King of Tyre was not Satan (though he may well have been a bad man), Moses was not God and John the Baptist was not Elijah.

To strain linguistics in such a way would seem to me to be obtuse, and akin to the thinking that would wish to find Apotheosis in the baptism of Jesus.
The exact thing applies moreso to Jesus, if you were wondering. Yes, the Bible is incredibly liberal in it's use of 'deification' but that's because it never actually deifies anything (including Jesus). You've gotta learn what the Bible actually says.
 





Phithx

Established
Joined
Nov 5, 2019
Messages
232
Likes
225
#20
Yikes, well, those are some words, alright.
The Way home or face The Fire From the forward

"AN APPEAL TO ALL THE NATIONS OF THE WORLD
Please accept this Book as a gift to ALL of you, without preference; forget your superstitions and religions, unite yourselves into one brotherhood, become “children of God” (by adoption) and bring lasting peace on Earth, and have good-will towards ALL men. PLEASE!!
It is your ONLY chance to survive.

The seasons weren’t instituted until after the flood, for one thing,
Many references to seasons in the Book of Enoch e.g. 76:5 Seven high "mountains" (the G.7. govts.) I beheld, higher than all the "mountains" of the Earth, from which frost proceeds (Matt. 24:12); while days, seasons, and years, depart and pass away (Rev. 22:5). King of kings' Bible

and regardless, “Christian” reincarnation has to get past Hebrews 9:27.
King of kings' Bible Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto (the "Self" of) men once to die, but then after this The Judgment: