Dr. William Campbell destroyed by Dr. Zakir Naik on scientific errors in the Bible MUST WATCH!!

[Serveto]

You can't learn Hebrew Greek or Aramaic and have any hope of comprehending it anywhere near natively unless you live and communicate in the countries that speak those languages. No one speaks, Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek the way they used to thousands of years ago either. I'm sure its the same with Arabic. There are people I know who've studied Hebrew and Greek and they went to university to learn the languages. Of course they understand the Bible better but God knows its not practical or possible for most people to learn the original languages the Bible was written in.

Matthew, it is said, originally wrote his gospel in Hebrew, and did so to evangelize Jews. Some centuries later, Jerome, a multi-linguist, who spoke Greek, Hebrew and Latin, had the original when he compiled the Vulgate and used it to make changes, to "solve difficulties of interpretations" to our present, existing Greek-based gospel of the same name. The original is lost. I personally think it would indicate a healthy Christian curiosity to want to find the gospel in its original, genuine Hebrew form, though an equal amount of skepticism should be exercised if it were unearthed, or brought out of some Vatican crypt. At any rate, it would certainly stimulate interfaith discussions between and among Judaism, Christianity and Islam.

Universities throughout the world graduate master linguists who are quibbling, scribbling and jabbering away in Classical Greek, Hebrew, Latin, Arabic, Sanskrit and other languages, and some of those master linguists, let's say another "Seventy," as were used when the Old Testament Hebrew was put into Greek with the Septuagint, thus giving it its name, could be employed to analyze the gospel and determine whether or not our Greek-based gospel is a fair rendition of the original, or if, when it was translated into Greek, it was also subject to redaction and revision. It sounds as though Waraqa had a Hebrew-based, not Greek-based, gospel on the Arabian peninsula immediately prior to, and at the time of, Muhammad.

Whatever language the Quran or other Muslim texts were written in, they are not from the God of the Bible because they have a different message and they deny the divinity of Christ which the whole Bible is about.

Waraqa, it is said, was both reading and writing the gospel in Hebrew. The hadith specifically said that he was doing so in the pre-Islamic era, so, at this point, we are not dealing with the Quran or other Islamic texts as such. I am looking for clues concerning the "previous scriptures" as mentioned. As Isaac and Ishmael are brothers, Hebrew and Arabic are etymologically, at the root level, correlated.

 

[elsbet]

@Serveto
What is it about the previous scriptures you would like to discuss?

He wasn't sure because he couldn't quite believe it. After his wife and uncle comforted him and assured him it was the same angel in previous scripture...

Thanks for asking, but I don't know.

I asked what scripture was being cited, and no answer has been given.

I know of no experience like it-- even in the OT, when Daniel experienced a vision, and received a visitation (from Gabriel), he was made to understand because he plainly said he did not. And he was, in fact, the only one who did.

SEE DANIEL 8:15-16
---

That aside, I agree.. Erasmus was kind of a heathen. He liked neither Jews nor Muslims, and was apparently pretty vocal about it. :/

 

[phipps]

Matthew, it is said, originally wrote his gospel in Hebrew, and did so to evangelize Jews. Some centuries later, Jerome, a multi-linguist, who spoke Greek, Hebrew and Latin, had the original when he compiled the Vulgate and used it to make changes, to "solve difficulties of interpretations" to our present, existing Greek-based gospel of the same name. The original is lost. I personally think it would indicate a healthy Christian curiosity to want to find the gospel in its original, genuine Hebrew form, though an equal amount of skepticism should be exercised if it were unearthed, or brought out of some Vatican crypt. At any rate, it would certainly stimulate interfaith discussions between and among Judaism, Christianity and Islam.

Universities throughout the world graduate master linguists who are quibbling, scribbling and jabbering away in Classical Greek, Hebrew, Latin, Arabic, Sanskrit and other languages, and some of those master linguists, let's say another "Seventy," as were used when the Old Testament Hebrew was put into Greek with the Septuagint, thus giving it its name, could be employed to analyze the gospel and determine whether or not our Greek-based gospel is a fair rendition of the original, or if, when it was translated into Greek, it was also subject to redaction and revision. It sounds as though Waraqa had a Hebrew-based, not Greek-based, gospel on the Arabian peninsula immediately prior to, and at the time of, Muhammad.


Waraqa, it is said, was both reading and writing the gospel in Hebrew. The hadith specifically said that he was doing so in the pre-Islamic era, so, at this point, we are not dealing with the Quran or other Islamic texts as such. I am looking for clues concerning the "previous scriptures" as mentioned. As Isaac and Ishmael are brothers, Hebrew and Arabic are etymologically, at the root level, correlated.

Some Christians are curious about finding the gospel in the original languages it was written in, of course they are. And some are educated in those languages. They understand the Word of God better. They also know which texts are more trustworthy and which Bible versions are better. But for those who cannot learn the languages of the Bible (99.9% of people), a translation is necessary. Ideally it should be the best translation. I use the KJV. What is more important is we must search the Scriptures for ourselves, and make them a meaningful part of our everyday lives. As we study the Holy Scriptures, we are assured that “the word of our God shall stand for ever” (Isaiah 40:8). With faith, God will guide us to all truth.

Personally I don't agree with any inter faiths discussions. They already take place and its called the Ecumenical movement and it was initiated by Rome. They say its for unity but that can only be achieved at the expense of God’s truth and only through compromise. What doctrines do the religions that take part in the ecumenical movement use or give up for the sake of unity? The Bible makes it clear that we cannot compromise the Word of God.

Whatever Waraqa wrote, is it in unison with the Bible? If not, pre-islamic or not, its not of the God of the Bible. And I don't know much about Ishmael because the Bible doesn't say much about him, but God's convenant was established through Isaac and he worshipped and obeyed God of the Bible.

 

[Serveto]

Personally I don't agree with any inter faiths discussions. They already take place and its called the Ecumenical movement and it was initiated by Rome.

As I see it, the faiths, at least Judaism and its splinter-movement, Christianity, have been interfaith discussing since prior to St. Paul's epistle to the Romans, that's right, Romans, from which city a world-wide church emerged. The already bad, inharmonious duet, with the Jews of Judaism repudiating the entire New Testament and all of its contents, became an even worse trio with the later introduction of the Quran, and the participants, Jews, Christians and Muslims alike, generally speaking, continue discussing, arguing, fighting and struggling for ultimate supremacy. Sometimes, it's fantastic, and on rare occasions, though it's probably due to randomness, they all sing on key. It's brilliant. I have season tickets and often enjoy my seat here in the theater.

 

[Bacsi]

With enough effort you can prove or disprove any religion. They are all false, though.

 

[phipps]

As I see it, the faiths, at least Judaism and its splinter-movement, Christianity, have been interfaith discussing before St. Paul wrote his epistle to the Romans, that's right, Romans, where a world-wide church emerged. The already bad duet, with the Jews of Judaism repudiating the entire New Testament and all of its contents, became an even worse trio with the introduction of the Quran and Muslims, and the participants, Jews, Christians and Muslims alike, generally speaking, continue discussing, arguing, fighting and struggling for ultimate supremacy. Sometimes, it's fantastic, and on rare occasions, though it's probably due to randomness, they all sing on key. It's brilliant and I often enjoy my seat here in the theater.

The Bible is clear in prophecy that the Roman Church is the church that will have supremacy and that is not a good for thing. The Roman Church has always been an apostate Church and is the one that will cause suffering to true Christians. Bible prophecy always comes true.

 

[elsbet]

I actually think that @AspiringSoul gave the best, and, yes, funniest answer about 40 pages back when he said this ...

Dont have anything, either, do you. -.-

The message of 'Jibril' contradicts the original message brought by Gabriel. Messages, really. That is the situation more so than any reassurance that may have been offered at the precipice.

Hearts, with stakes protruding, would be a matter of perspective, I guess.

 

[Serveto]

Dont have anything, either, do you. -.-

Sometimes, your posts, the attitude in which you post, are hard to read and understand, even with the emoticons, and that is probably equally true of my posts as well, that I own. In terms of "previous scripture," which are the words you used and which I quoted, I offered two instances, from history, of an original Hebrew-based gospel, now unfortunately lost: the first written by St. Matthew; the second, if not as definitively, read by Waraqa. You might not fully appreciate the offering, and I don't mind that, but it is something, something of substance and not of snark. I don't care if anybody believes that the Gabriel of Muhammad was the Gabriel of the Bible. I am more interested in history, as a subject, than angelology, or whatever it might be called, and "previous scriptures," given their concrete nature, are more easily located and identified than angels.

With that said, I still agree with @AspiringSoul's position, because you and I both know that, according to St. Paul, any entity which comes preaching another gospel, or revelation, other than his is to be considered accursed, and even Satan himself is said to be transformed into an angel of light. So, yes, it would be said, in essence, if not in AS's exact words, that "it was a demon pretending to be nice." The point, therefore, is moot, and he rightly called it pages ago.

 

[AspiringSoul]

The earlier new age era of the 19th century onwards to the modern day new age, are absolutely jam packed with examples of 'fake angels of light'
but each and every one of them have exposed their own evil within the experience specifically

Moroni's 'angel' told him it had many past lives

One guy called phillip goddard had an 'angel of the 6 dimension' come to him..it told him he was special, chosen etc..then told him to go to his male friends house (even though it was way past midnight) and have sex with him.....then it told him to r*pe that man when he declined the proposition!!
THIS guy phillip goddard due to such experiences, rejected religion in the end
the dude talks csually about masturbating, homosexuality on one hand, divination and astrology on the other.......and yet thinks religion is the problem and cause of his experiences ie he thinks 'these angels are so evil dey did dis shit to good old me'

THEOLOGY.......
it matters

and what also matters is knowledge of the metaphysical map and some knowledge of our own inner nature
for example i learnt that the inner world, call it the subconscious mind or the heart...it is the stage where all this occurs ie where the demons or angels exist..within us, not outside us..
like when Jesus spoke of the kingdom of heaven (or hell)..that world is experienced by us in this life via the brain. so we have to understand our brain structure even on a basic level to get some understanding of why certain things are how they are
ie the limbic brain is the lowest/earliest evolved part of our brain..it is called the 'reptilian brain' and in muslim thinking when this part of our brain is dominant like it is with addicts/impulsive people....then the corresponding inner world is dominated by demonic beings..
the imagery seen ie gremlins, reptilians, snake type entities only reflect our own evolution ie amphibian

and it gets clearer as you go up ie the mammilian brain and neo-cortex

so effectively what would happen here is a low quality person (and most of us are, lets face it), impulsive, lacking self-control and so forth would receive a spirit that's got those classic reptilian qualities...
you want to bet it will slip up theologically?
it will demand to be worshipped at some point...
it also corresponds to what the muslims describe as the lowest stateof the nafs (ego)
so any entity is in reality a reflection of the nafs itself.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nafs

In its primitive stage the nafs incites us to commit evil: this is the nafs as the lower self, the base instincts.[8][9] In the eponymous Sura of the Quran, Yusuf says "Yet I claim not that my nafs was innocent: Verily the nafs incites to evil."[Quran 12:53]Islam emphasizes the importance of fighting the inciting nafs in Quran[10] as well as in hadith. One tradition holds that Muhammad said after returning from a war, "We now return from the small struggle (Jihad Asghar) to the big struggle (Jihad Akbar)". His companions asked, "O prophet of God, what is the big struggle?" He replied, "The struggle against nafs."[11]
This stage is generally divided into the levels al nafs al-hayawaniyya und al nafs al-iblissiyya. Al nafs al-hayawaniyya ("the animal state") describes the self, which runs after material possessesion, sensual desires and animalistic pleasures. Al nafs al-iblissiyya is even lower than the animal state, because the self seeks to replace God in the love for itself.[12]
The Quran enjoins the faithful "to hinder the nafs from lust",[Quran 79:40] and another traditional narration warns that "the worst enemy you have is [the nafs] between your sides."[13] Rumi warns of the nafs in its guise of religious hypocrisy, saying "the nafs has a rosary and a Koran in its right hand, and a scimitar and dagger in the sleeve."[14]
Animal imagery is often used to describe the nafs. A popular image is a donkey or unruly horse that must be trained and broken so that eventually it will bear its rider to the goal.[15] Rumi compares the nafs to a camel that the hero Majnun, representing the intellect ('Aql), strains to turn in the direction of the dwelling-place of his beloved.[14]

that bolded quote...is precislely the meaning of satan maquanders as an angel of light
the aim is always to destroy you...and that is only a reflection of the nafs...and why?

well, just look at any addict who's relapsed
the monkey mind/ego was the biggest enemy.

maybe some of you should watch the movie The Revolver to at least begin to understand wtf the ego really is.

 

[AspiringSoul]

https://sufism.org/sufism/writings-on-sufism/levels-of-the-self-2

3. Satan is the third enemy (Shaytan Al Rajeem). He is also external to the human being’s essence. His role is to seduce, mislead, and make beautiful all that is false and forbidden and repugnant in this world in order to cause the nafs to become attached to these things through its desires. He has no means other than to embellish and tempt the ego and no weapon except to energize and stir the two inner desires of the ego, the “Me” and “Greed” so that the human being will inflate himself and in turn increase his separation. In this way Satan leads the human being to either denial and polytheism or to disobedience and sins. There is no remedy or prevention for this other than the constant remembrance and seeking refuge in Allah and in putting one’s trust in Him.

“Verily, Satan is your enemy so take him as your enemy.” (Fatir-6)​

The ascent or descent of the Nafs depends on the degree of remedy and protection from these three enemies. So the Nafs either ascends to the station of “the most beautiful station.” Or it may descend to the station of “the lowest of the low.”
The Quran mentions five levels for the human soul. The basic level is the one in which we are born which is called the Blaming Self (Nafs Al Lawwama). If it is neglected and left to its whims and desires it will descend to the station of the Commanding Self (Nafs Al Ammara). And if it is developed and cared for through effort and resistance to its desires it will, God willing, ascend to the highest levels of closeness, contentment, and love for Allah and His Prophet. These higher levels are three, the first one above the Blaming Self is the Secure Self (Nafs Al Muttma’ina), followed by the Content Self (Nafs Al Radiyah), and finally to the Gratified Self (Nafs Al Mardiyyah) and that is the self that reaches its natural place and station which is “the most beautiful station.”
The Gnostics (Arifun) have detailed and explained this matter and made it easy for the Muslim to know it and act upon it thus making immunity and remedy easy. They made the levels seven in number within the scope of the five mentioned in the Quran.
1. The Commanding Self (Nafs Al Ammara).
The remembrance that is appropriate for its treatment is La Illah Illa Allah (There is no god except God). It is the lowest level of the self and the worst. In it is found extreme desire and lust for immortality and sovereignty. Thus it is attached to the worst of characteristics from which we have been warned by Allah and His Prophet. For example self-admiration, arrogance and pride, hardness of the heart, oppression of creatures, love for exposing the faults of others, lying, gossip, back-biting, envy, jealousy, criticism, undeserved self-praise, bitterness, attachment to what belongs to others even if it possesses what is better, lack of contentment, constant complaining, lack of gratitude, blindness to its blessings, wishing for increase without effort, extreme selfishness, greed and covetousness that knows no limit, love of control, and love of self and its desires, hatred for those who criticize it even if it is for its own good and love for those who praise it even if it is in hypocrisy, rejection of advice and counsel, and only talking about itself.
This Commanding Self is generally divided into two levels:
The Animal Self (Nafs Al Hayawaniyyah); this is the self that runs after sensual desires and material possessions without regard for right or wrong, justice or inequity, lawful or unlawful. It is drowned in the pleasures of possessions, sex, and adornments. It is characterized by lewdness, evil, and lack of humanity. It abhors religion and loves itself selfishly. It knows neither fullness, nor humility, nor thankfulness, nor honor, nor manners.
The Satanic Self (Nafs Al Iblissiyyah); is even lower than the Animal Self because its love for itself has taken it to the stage where it competes with Allah in His divinity and lordship. “I am your lord supreme” as Pharaoh proclaimed, and “I am better than him” as Iblis contended.
The Commanding Self is the one with the ill heart. If the heart is not healed, the nafs continues in its ways until the heart is blinded and then it is finally sealed.
The root of this level of the self is that it’s convinced that it is perfect and that others are flawed and that everyone will die but it will remain immortal. It got its name because of its constant demands and its numerous calls to satisfy its desires. So it demands a thing and before it attains it, it demands another thing and so on without end. The human in this state is the friend and beloved of Satan and the enemy of the Merciful. “Except those upon whom Allah shows mercy.”










now compare this to Alester Crowley's 'do as THOU WILT' ie the 'angel' that inspired him, came to him in the pyramid (allagedly). Now this teaching is particularly funny because on one hand it is interpreted as 'do whatever you want' but on the other even crowley said the 'self' we think he are is not our true self...ie the implication being that the true Self is Spirit and higher
the only problem is crowley said the GENIE/JINN was our true self and in our experiences we could meet our true self LMFAO

and that there is the devil's trick.at work.
when your theology is strong you don't fall for that shit.

 

[AspiringSoul]

ironically @Etagloc accused me of being a munafiq and accused Abu layth of being one too.
yet when i used to quote him hadith as evidence for my perspective........he told me he thinks the Quran is SORCERY and that whenever he read the Quran it was like sorcery

today he is playing the staunch hardcore muslim/salafi.......the people who turn to wahabi/salafism are dominated by the primitive mind still and see things in black and white.

the faux christians also belong in this category.
they write things off without even have a remote idea what is really going on.
no comprehension skills whatsoever.

 

[phipps]

Again as I see it, and granted not through the eyes of prophecy, the Roman Catholic Church is essentially dead, or at least moribund. It's a whited sepulcher, but inside are dead men's bones. Sometimes, and just speaking generally here, not referring specifically to you, Protestants remind me of those located Japanese WWII soldiers, previously abandoned on some island, who hadn't heard that the war was over, so they continued to fight.

The so called pope, for instance, instead of decrying the selling of aborted fetus organs for profit by Planned Parenthood, is reading the script of global warming, texting selfies with Katy Perry (or something like that) and quite possibly opening the Eucharist to Lutherans. Freemasons, Rationalists also known as modernists and Deists, who conveniently rode the coat-tails of Protestants and, long ago, obtained the scepter and the crown, the realm of Caesar, and thus largely destroyed what remained of Christendom, drove the wooden stake into her, the Church's, heart and called it Vatican II.

My guess is that, as their man of the lodge, Ataturk, did to the Islamic Caliphate by abolishing it in the 1920's, Napoleon considered doing to the papacy when he had Pope Pius VII imprisoned at Savona, but he left a shell of it alive for some, not very Catholic or Christian, reason. If I were a Catholic, I would probably be a sedevacantist. What do you say? Shall we storm the Catholic citadel, with the Swiss Guard's permission, of course, and try to locate the original Hebrew Matthew gospel in the Vatican's basement?

I doubt we would find the original Hebrew Matthew gospel but would be shocked by what else we find there (I suspect that's what the guards are really guarding) given how evil they are.

 

[shqipe]

Aspiringsoul is schooling everybody on this forum

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Aspiringsoul is schooling everybody on this forum

I skipped class - what have I missed?!

 

[shqipe]

Everything! Shame on you for skipping class how else are you going to learn

 

[elsbet]

I skipped class - what have I missed?!

Nafing.

 

[Karlysymon]

The earlier new age era of the 19th century onwards to the modern day new age, are absolutely jam packed with examples of 'fake angels of light' but each and every one of them have exposed their own evil within the experience specifically Moroni's 'angel' told him it had many past lives One guy called phillip goddard had an 'angel of the 6 dimension' come to him..it told him he was special, chosen etc..then told him to go to his male friends house (even though it was way past midnight) and have sex with him.....then it told him to r*pe that man when he declined the proposition!!

THIS guy phillip goddard due to such experiences, rejected religion in the end the dude talks csually about masturbating, homosexuality on one hand, divination and astrology on the other.......and yet thinks religion is the problem and cause of his experiences ie he thinks 'these angels are so evil dey did dis shit to good old me' THEOLOGY.......it matters

Knowing all too well the dangers we face, God hasn't left us defenseless. The Scriptures are the only safeguard that we have against ^that. There is no other way to tell the fakes from the real except by HolyWrit.
"To the law and to the
testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them." Isaiah 8:20. The people of God are directed to the Scriptures as their safeguard against the influence of false teachers and the delusive power of spirits of darkness. Satan employs every possible device to prevent men from obtaining a knowledge of the Bible; for its plain utterances reveal his deceptions.

Paul is most often accused of having been arrested by an entity other than Christ, on the road to Damascus. His writings, when examined alongside the OT, he remains consistent with the over-arching theme: the redemption of man and the Person who would wrought it. He "resolved to know nothing except Christ and Him crucified" (1 Cor 2:2) inspite of his fellow Jews wanting him dead for preaching Christ.

The accusations plague Muhammad because his message (or the one dispensing it) isn't consistent with the 'previous scriptures'. If Islam was a correction of all that had gone wrong in the past, we would have an acknowledgement of what was wrong or being abrogated. Even though iam saying this for the nth time, we aren't given reasons/explanations for the simplest of things such as the Temple and its rituals. Solomon built the structure (historical fact) and if the priesthood and the rituals were an abomination, shouldn't that atleast be explained in the quran? If they were instituted by God, then abrogated, shouldn't we be afforded an explanation aswell? Paul does exactly that in Hebrews.

Since what he presents is claimed as the final revelation, we can't just take him at his word. The revelation has to be tested against what came before. We can't just take it by faith. It is important to prove that it was infact Gabriel speaking, at God's command and that can only be done by examining how God has spoken in the past. But if the 'previous scriptures' are rendered false or corrupted, we don't have a standard against which the new revelation is supposed to stand, and that's problematic.

 

[Haich]

Scripture has been tampered with in the past and thoughts of men infiltrated God's books. You guys say so yourself, I mean Timothy is allegedly Paul's son but who gave Timmy the authority to be an author? Was he chosen by God?

Not every verse in past scripture is corrupted. I've said this before so there's no need to keep blowing the Islamic perspective out of proportion. There are many verses I've read of the bible that I agree with , however, I disagree with some interpretations as they contradict, in my view, the nature of God.

 

[Haich]

How is Mohammed's message inconsistent with previous scripture? He preached the message of monotheism, worshipping a sole Creator....as did those before him

The trinity seems incredibly inconsistent and contradictory of previous scripture.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

How is Mohammed's message inconsistent with previous scripture? He preached the message of monotheism, worshipping a sole Creator....as did those before him

The trinity seems incredibly inconsistent and contradictory of previous scripture.

I think that Jesus dying as the atonement for the sins of the world is what the OT points to, (the Jews missed) and what the NT confirms.

This is what Islam denies.

This is no small deviation, and what is warned about when advising against angels coming with "another gospel".

Galatians 1

6I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: 7Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. 8But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.9As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.​

​

10For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.​

Apologies for being so blunt, I'm not saying it to annoy you but it "is what it is".