Double standard and slut-shaming

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With good reason. it’s just to let men know which are keepers and which are passers. no smart man wants the pass around for anything other than sex, and after she’s had so many partners, a smart man doesn’t even want that from her. too much emotional damage, increased std risks, and the nightmare that would be getting them pregnant.

yea yea yea, I know misogyny this, standard canned insult that. I don’t care about any of that.
 






morita

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I have to agree with some of the things you are saying here. I do think marriage and monogamy is more about protecting women from being mistreated economically in a patriarchal society than something that is preferable as a rule.

getting married means that there are financial attachments, which a woman would otherwise depend on if she couldn’t make her own income. That is what happens with polygamous relationships. The more women a man marries, the more likely a women is to be reduced to poverty when a new wife is introduced.

but if men are encouraged to marry someone in a monogamous relationship, a woman is protected from the financial effects multiple partners created for women. We glamorize marriage for women with ideas of Prince Charming, and soul mates, but the reality is that all relationships will run their course at some point and marriage is more about economic protection for women than anything else.

relationships with parents run their course at some point. Close friends from school fall out of touch at some point. A spouse can die and a person can remarry, so there is no such thing as true monogamy through marriage anyways.

The most offensive part of a man having multiple partners is that a woman can’t do the same really. There is nothing wrong with a woman having more than one relationship.

but it will probably take another hundred years of women being able to find financial independence for people to see that a lot of the way we view relationships are because of the way women have been disadvantaged throughout history.

I don’t really think our idea of marriage is something that has any real permanence in the future. What we should focus on more is consent. Like just because someone wants to be with more than partner doesn’t mean that their partner has to give consent for this. I don’t think there is more freedom in relationships outside of marriage. There are still boundaries that are defined by whether the person you are in a relationship with, gives consent for the way you want to approach a relationship.

sexual consent should be the priority because it is where issues like jealousy and other things are going to come in. People struggle with the notion that relationships run their course for some part of their lives. It can be shocking because of where we are in the process of understanding attachments made through sex, but it is a reality.

and this idea that there is some greater degree of permanence that we can force onto our relationships through marriage is a patriarchal notion that is not altogether harmful to women historically because of limited economic options for women. It is just not necessary for a woman to only consider this option when she is given more economic options.

so there is a real argument that women struggle to gain economic opportunities because men lose their advantage over relationships when this happens. Marriage is really a crap institution patriarchal or not when you look at how many people commit adultery.

adultery indicates that a relationship has run its course in some respect, but we force people to ignore this reality as though it were something morally superior rather than a somewhat practical way to create equality between men and women as a result of legitimate hardships that exist in life.

side note: someone might be thinking that what I’m saying is something liberal and influenced by communists. I know this because I have read about the wife swapping in the Soviet Union when I have commented on communism as a detrimental ideology before.

but not every new idea stems from a preexisting ideology. This effort to share wives during communism doesn’t have anything to do with the legitimate economic disadvantages that women have suffered for thousands of years in almost every culture throughout history.

marriage creates a sort of equality, but is the best way to achieve equality? I don’t think it is. I think it is a temporary solution and there is never going to be a better solution until people stop romanticizing marriage as something that is capable of being semi permanent. There are few realities that consistently exist within the romanticized narrative of marriage. it is basically an illusion, but I really think this illusion is of little consequence to a man to change. It essentially doesn’t make anything better or worse for them to change, so it isn’t real for them the same that having the right for women to vote was also a take it or leave it situation.

and I have been married. I have spent a lot of time thinking about marriage and I don’t think I would ever do it again. It seems like something that was part of being younger and adopting an idea that was given to me and preexisting rather than mine to begin with. I get along with the person I was married to and am fully capable of trying to pursue something like this in the future. None of these things would be factors someone could stereotype me with because I have formed this opinion At this point in my life. I’m never going to be some kind of spinster hating men and the idea of marriage because I can’t find a date before anyone tries to come at me with some crap like that.

well I think I have covered most of my bases at this point, so I will stop.

tldr: I don’t give a f*** if this was too long for you. Don’t read it and move on for all I care. ;)
(I already expanded on it in the sex work thread. Historically women agreed to do a number of chores, notably sexual chores in exchange for financial stability).
In the past a 16year old girl didn't have any power in ageeing to marry some old creep because it was a question of survival. Now that we have the choice to marry or not there is still stigma attached to not marrying. Especially after a certain age, if you're a woman and unmarried, people consider you a failure.
The reality is a woman's marital status shouldn't define her worth or her entire life. Whether a woman is married, coupled or stays single. But it's a man's world so women are playing by men's rules. we idealize marriage with the idea of prince charming and romance but being married with kids is also considered the be all end all of womanhood. A woman isn't accomplished as long as she doesn't have kids and a husband, even if she's successful and has a great career and doesn't have to rely on a husband's income.
And a woman's worth is also closely tied to her youth and her appearance so if a woman doesn't marry when she's at her physical prime, there is this assumption that men will automatically go for younger women in the dating market and she will be left out. So there is this constant competition btw women and also these harsh standards that are placed onto them so they always feel like they don't have any power. Women can't even voice preferences without getting flak(whether it's money, looks, career, etc). So they marry without thinking about what they really want but more what society expects of them.
I also think the mistake that a lot of women make whent they get into relationships is to think that systems of power aren't going to affect the dynamics of the relationships, even if it's just in small ways. The personal is political (even the so called "male feminist" or liberals can harbor misogyny.)
Men who werent chaste before marriage but want their wife to be chaste, see her as an extension of their ego rather than a whole and complete person. That's also a way minimize risks of her commiting adultery if she has proven she doesn't sleep around and reserve her body for her husband. Make sure she won't embarass them in public and tarnish their reputation. But also to make sure their kids are really theirs. Like I said in another thread, men would gladly reinstate harems if it was possible to be polygamous but also to exert control over women.
 






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rainerann

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(I already expanded on it in the sex work thread. Historically women agreed to do a number of chores, notably sexual chores in exchange for financial stability).
In the past a 16year old girl didn't have any power in ageeing to marry some old creep because it was a question of survival. Now that we have the choice to marry or not there is still stigma attached to not marrying. Especially after a certain age, if you're a woman and unmarried, people consider you a failure.
The reality is a woman's marital status shouldn't define her worth or her entire life. Whether a woman is married, coupled or stays single. But it's a man's world so women are playing by men's rules. we idealize marriage with the idea of prince charming and romance but being married with kids is also considered the be all end all of womanhood. A woman isn't accomplished as long as she doesn't have kids and a husband, even if she's successful and has a great career and doesn't have to rely on a husband's income.
And a woman's worth is also closely tied to her youth and her appearance so if a woman doesn't marry when she's at her physical prime, there is this assumption that men will automatically go for younger women in the dating market and she will be left out. So there is this constant competition btw women and also these harsh standards that are placed onto them so they always feel like they don't have any power. Women can't even voice preferences without getting flak(whether it's money, looks, career, etc). So they marry without thinking about what they really want but more what society expects of them.
I also think the mistake that a lot of women make whent they get into relationships is to think that systems of power aren't going to affect the dynamics of the relationships, even if it's just in small ways. The personal is political (even the so called "male feminist" or liberals can harbor misogyny.)
Men who werent chaste before marriage but want their wife to be chaste, see her as an extension of their ego rather than a whole and complete person. That's also a way minimize risks of her commiting adultery if she has proven she doesn't sleep around and reserve her body for her husband. Make sure she won't embarass them in public and tarnish their reputation. But also to make sure their kids are really theirs. Like I said in another thread, men would gladly reinstate harems if it was possible to be polygamous but also to exert control over women.
ive been reading this book on the history of the chicken ranch which was a brothel in Texas that was run by women. It is interesting to see how one of the women who ran the brothel, came into that position And just appreciate how she didn’t have any other options.

it was also interesting to see the contrast in the number of choices, men had who came from a similar degree of poverty. Men in similar place of poverty were still given many more options to try to change these circumstances.

There was apparently an all boys college nearby where boys went to school that came from pretty much nothing. The school itself is well known for its association with the brothel where the college boys would go on weekends.

so you have many dynamics happening in this picture. You have the college boys having a fling. So many of them have flings at this brothel, the college’s reputation is influenced by this. The boys finish college and go on to get good jobs, marry one of the girls that has been drilled to grow up to be a pure wife for one of them.

And the women who came from nothing themselves to go on to run this brothel house which gave them some protection within the limited window of opportunity they had to support themselves. These women are still shunned as being somewhat less respectable than the women who became the wives of these college boys.

and then people seem to have an even bigger problem with a woman having a fling in college because she sees someone she thinks is hot.

there are plenty of things to do and enjoy in life that are non sexual, but a woman shouldn’t have to isolate herself to these things as though she is different than a man when it comes to sexuality.

this is the book I read and it was very interesting to try to see things through the eyes of these women. It would be nice if more people were willing to do the same.


its all good to choose to not have multiple sex partners, but it happens. sexual attraction is so much a part of life that people accepted the reality of brothels because of this. The history of these vice districts are really interesting as well. There is no reason women should be treated differently than a man when it comes to sex.
 






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rainerann

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With good reason. it’s just to let men know which are keepers and which are passers. no smart man wants the pass around for anything other than sex, and after she’s had so many partners, a smart man doesn’t even want that from her. too much emotional damage, increased std risks, and the nightmare that would be getting them pregnant.

yea yea yea, I know misogyny this, standard canned insult that. I don’t care about any of that.
I don’t think what you are saying is entirely misogynistic. You are basically just describing someone that you feel you would be compatible with and I have no way of knowing whether you behave in a hypocritical way.

I think that maybe you don’t understand what the word misogyny means. There is no reason for me to assume that you have not chosen to have few sexual partners as well. You could be describing a situation that is altogether equal in terms of compatibility.

I would describe misogyny along the lines of what I was told at one point in my life. A women is either a wife or a mistress. A wife has to accept a mistress because she is a woman, but this is compensated by the fact that she gets the name and privilege of being a wife. The mistress has to accept that she is not the wife, but she has her own set of privileges. They both have to accept each other because they are women and incapable of understanding the sex drive a man carries. It is too heavy and has to be fulfilled by more than one women and It is just ridiculous to assume that a women can’t be attracted to more than one man in the same way.

This would be what I would consider misogynistic. If you don’t agree with this, there is no reason to assume that someone is going to think you are a misogynist. Good luck to you in trying to find someone that you are compatible with.
 






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@morita
I understand everything you are saying right here.
You have some valid points, and when you aren't being mean, you make some very good points.
 






Cintra

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.
And a woman's worth is also closely tied to her youth and her appearance so if a woman doesn't marry when she's at her physical prime, there is this assumption that men will automatically go for younger women in the dating market and she will be left out. So there is this constant competition btw women and also these harsh standards that are placed onto them so they always feel like they don't have any power. Women can't even voice preferences without getting flak(whether it's money, looks, career, etc). So they marry without thinking about what they really want but more what society expects of them.
And that is why you said this to me?

Screenshot_20201009-171114.png

Such a white guy thing to say...

And yeah, I am going to keep calling you out for that piece of misogynistic hate speech.

You are the problem you keep whining about.
 






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morita

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@morita
I understand everything you are saying right here.
You have some valid points, and when you aren't being mean, you make some very good points.
Maybe because contrary to you I actually have lived experience as a woman. What you say about the woman experience just stems from typical controlling patriarchal bullshit. Like telling women what to do with their bodies: it's misogyny. Truth is truth. Of course, no one except me called you out because it's VC.
 






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meximonk

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I agree. Men in general have proven time and time again that they cannot control their testosterone, or sex drive. Just look at the National sex registry—all men. All convicted of horrendous sex crimes. Are men “shamed” for this fact? Of course not! I don’t understand why us women are “slut shamed!” Wouldn’t you think men would be happy women are into sex?!
Excuse me, after years of hell dealing with women who couldn't keep it in their dresses, I remained single by choice for 7 years before I met my wife because I was a virgin looking for the same. I got so sick and tired of finding women who claimed to be waiting for marriage but were just lying about it and sometimes even to themselves. I couldn't find one, and a number of women left me because I refused to give in to them. Many saw me as a challenge. Try being a virgin in the US Military and waiting for decades until you found someone who was also waiting for you.

If there's a double standard, then the most common is that men are always to blame.
 






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Cintra

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Maybe because contrary to you I actually have lived experience as a woman. What you say about the woman experience just stems from typical controlling patriarchal bullshit. Like telling women what to do with their bodies: it's misogyny. Truth is truth. Of course, no one except me called you out because it's VC.
typical controlling patriarchal bullshit...

Like your evil hate speech to me?

Screenshot_20201009-171114.png

I am calling out guys like you.

Because seriously... what kind of evil says that to another human being?
 






Cintra

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@2cool4thisplanet
Thank you for supporting me. It has been appreciated.

I made a joke, it was meant to be funny, it made morita angry, and in their anger s/he showed his/her true feelings (as often happens).

And what s/he said in this moment of anger fuelled honesty was that my worth as a woman is exactly equal to and dependant upon my attractiveness to men, and s/he thinks I feel the same.

This is such an misogynistc, patriarchal, body image obsessed attitude I think they are a guy, trolling women.
Maybe they have never seen a real woman in the flesh, just ideaised internet porn. Maybe they don't realise that imperfection is the natural state of humanity.

My worth as a human being has very little to do with my attractiveness or otherwise.
I had hoped that as time went on these old fashioned and chauvinistic expectations of women would vanish.
Sadly they seem to be alive and well.
Thank you again for your support.
 






Cintra

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Sorry, just trying to understand here Cintra -
Cintra, you're a Female, and Morita is a Male?
I am female.

As for Morita, I wouldn't know. Everyone is just words on a page.

But by their fruits we shall know them.
Morita said this to me, do you think it is the sort of thing a man or woman would say?

IMG_20201024_144427.jpg

The attachment was an old fashioned sad cat meme with the words poor thing... poor thing...

Anyway, gender aside, its a terrible thing to say to someone you believe to be disabled.
It deserves to be called out.
Again
and again
and again

I asked someone about it. they said I should report the comment to the police. get the hate speech on record.
But I doubt that I will bother.
 






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meximonk

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I am female.

As for Morita, I wouldn't know. Everyone is just words on a page.

But by their fruits we shall know them.
Morita said this to me, do you think it is the sort of thing a man or woman would say?

View attachment 44545

The attachment was an old fashioned sad cat meme with the words poor thing... poor thing...

Anyway, gender aside, its a terrible thing to say to someone you believe to be disabled.
It deserves to be called out.
Again
and again
and again

I asked someone about it. they said I should report the comment to the police. get the hate speech on record.
But I doubt that I will bother.
Thanks for the clarification.
 






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