Does The Gospel Make Sense?

[Aero]

Appreciate the thought, but I already know Christ is my savior. He just didn't save me from Sin. He saved me from ignorance, and blindness.

Gnostic Jesus says:

(1) “I stood in the middle of the world, and in flesh I appeared to them.
(2) I found all of them drunk. None of them did I find thirsty.
(3) And my soul ached for the children of humanity, because they are blind in their heart, and they cannot see; for they came into the world empty, (and) they also seek to depart from the world empty.
(4) But now they are drunk. (But) when they shake off their wine, then they will change their mind.”

When Jesus says born empty he is talking about being born of flesh. As contrasted with born of spirit. We come into this world asleep and blind to the divine spirit within. We are ignorant of ourselves and our potentiality.

Gnostic Jesus says:

(1) “If those who lead you say to you: ‘Look, the kingdom is in the sky!’ then the birds of the sky will precede you.
(2) If they say to you: ‘It is in the sea,’ then the fishes will precede you.
(3) Rather, the kingdom is inside of you and outside of you.”
(4) “When you come to know yourselves, then you will be known, and you will realize that you are the children of the living Father.
(5) But if you do not come to know yourselves, then you exist in poverty, and you are poverty.”

It can't get any more clear than this. The true kingdom of Christ being right in front of us. So there is no reason to feel guilt or shame. There is nothing to repent from. Jesus only died in appearance, and our resurrections aren't in real time.

(1) The disciples said to Jesus: “Tell us how our end will be.”
(2) Jesus said: “Have you already discovered the beginning that you are now asking about the end? For where the beginning is, there the end will be too.
(3) Blessed is he who will stand at the beginning. And he will know the end, and he will not taste death.”

Isn't it interesting how Gnostic Jesus felt about time? He's almost being scientific here. His ability to reveal the truth should be clear as day. Time starts at 1 point and goes around in a circle back to that same point. Therefore time is the greatest illusion in the world. It's one of those things that keeps us ignorant and blind to the true kingdom

Gnostic Jesus says:

(1) “Perhaps people think that I have come to cast peace upon the earth.
(2) But they do not know that I have come to cast dissension upon the earth: fire, sword, war.
(3) For there will be five in one house: there will be three against two and two against three, father against son and son against father.
(4) And they will stand as solitary ones.”

Yes. The birth of individuality. The waking up process that Jesus brought to this Earth. Knowing yourself and knowing the kingdom. Amen Gnostic Jesus.

 

[JoChris]

Appreciate the thought, but I already know Christ is my savior. He just didn't save me from Sin. He saved me from ignorance, and blindness.

Gnostic Jesus says:

(1) “I stood in the middle of the world, and in flesh I appeared to them.
(2) I found all of them drunk. None of them did I find thirsty.
(3) And my soul ached for the children of humanity, because they are blind in their heart, and they cannot see; for they came into the world empty, (and) they also seek to depart from the world empty.
(4) But now they are drunk. (But) when they shake off their wine, then they will change their mind.”

When Jesus says born empty he is talking about being born of flesh. As contrasted with born of spirit. We come into this world asleep and blind to the divine spirit within. We are ignorant of ourselves and our potentiality.

Gnostic Jesus says:

(1) “If those who lead you say to you: ‘Look, the kingdom is in the sky!’ then the birds of the sky will precede you.
(2) If they say to you: ‘It is in the sea,’ then the fishes will precede you.
(3) Rather, the kingdom is inside of you and outside of you.”
(4) “When you come to know yourselves, then you will be known, and you will realize that you are the children of the living Father.
(5) But if you do not come to know yourselves, then you exist in poverty, and you are poverty.”

It can't get any more clear than this. The true kingdom of Christ being right in front of us. So there is no reason to feel guilt or shame. There is nothing to repent from. Jesus only died in appearance, and our resurrections aren't in real time.

(1) The disciples said to Jesus: “Tell us how our end will be.”
(2) Jesus said: “Have you already discovered the beginning that you are now asking about the end? For where the beginning is, there the end will be too.
(3) Blessed is he who will stand at the beginning. And he will know the end, and he will not taste death.”

Isn't it interesting how Gnostic Jesus felt about time? He's almost being scientific here. His ability to reveal the truth should be clear as day. Time starts at 1 point and goes around in a circle back to that same point. Therefore time is the greatest illusion in the world. It's one of those things that keeps us ignorant and blind to the true kingdom

Gnostic Jesus says:

(1) “Perhaps people think that I have come to cast peace upon the earth.
(2) But they do not know that I have come to cast dissension upon the earth: fire, sword, war.
(3) For there will be five in one house: there will be three against two and two against three, father against son and son against father.
(4) And they will stand as solitary ones.”

Yes. The birth of individuality. The waking up process that Jesus brought to this Earth. Knowing yourself and knowing the kingdom. Amen Gnostic Jesus.

Gnostic Jesus also says women should become male to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/thomas/gospelthomas114.html
Are there any verses in the New Testament which agree with Gnostic Jesus?

 

[Aero]

Gnostic Jesus also says women should become male to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/thomas/gospelthomas114.html
Are there any verses in the New Testament which agree with Gnostic Jesus?

You are misunderstanding that verse. Like any uninitiated typically would.

And obviously the New Testament doesn't agree since they burned most of the history of Gnosticism. Thanks Christianity.

 

[JoChris]

You are misunderstanding that verse. Like any uninitiated typically would.

And obviously the New Testament doesn't agree since they burned most of the history of Gnosticism. Thanks Christianity.

Distraction tactic. WHERE in the New Testament are there bible verses which say the same thing, convey the same message? https://carm.org/does-the-gospel-of-thomas-belong-in-the-new-testament
That is not a superficial contradiction. Women cannot become men physically. Surgical and hormonal treatment does not change XX chromosone to XY chromosome. Therefore it applies to some other way.

Gnostic NON-CHRISTIAN websites says it is via mystical experiences. That is not by faith. That is not by repentance. That is fleshly, that is non-spiritual. It is counterfeit.

And that is why you prefer the Gnostic Jesus. You live to please self via Gnosis. You are not living for God via faith and resulting repentance, demonstrated by change of mind AND change of behaviour.

 

[Aero]

Distraction tactic. WHERE in the New Testament are there bible verses which say the same thing, convey the same message? https://carm.org/does-the-gospel-of-thomas-belong-in-the-new-testament
That is not a superficial contradiction. Women cannot become men physically. Surgical and hormonal treatment does not change XX chromosone to XY chromosome. Therefore it applies to some other way.

Gnostic NON-CHRISTIAN websites says it is via mystical experiences. That is not by faith. That is not by repentance. That is fleshly, that is non-spiritual. It is counterfeit.

Well I'm not a scholar on Gnostic Jesus (yet). But I think it's clear that his disciples were very new to the secret gnostic knowledge. So you have to imagine it's like Jesus teaching little children.

I think he was speaking symbolically of a union of opposites. And his followers just weren't at a point to understand in more appropriate terms. There's nothing inherently mystical about symbolism. A woman being a man is no different than a woman being a snake. Or a man being a crow. It's not meant to be taken literally.

 

[JoChris]

Well I'm not a scholar on Gnostic Jesus (yet). But I think it's clear that his disciples were very new to the secret gnostic knowledge. So you have to imagine it's like Jesus teaching little children.

I think he was speaking symbolically of a union of opposites. And his followers just weren't at a point to understand in more appropriate terms. There's nothing inherently mystical about symbolism. A woman being a man is no different than a woman being a snake. Or a man being a crow. It's not meant to be taken literally.

Secret knowledge taught by Gnostics contradicts what was taught by Jesus and the apostles from the 1st century. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+12:1-3&version=KJV
The Gospel message is simple enough for children to understand.
People like yourself are falling for a different Gospel. Salvation of the BIBLE is through FAITH in in the person, God made flesh, the Lord Jesus Christ, not secret hidden knowledge (Gnosis).

 

[Aero]

Secret knowledge taught by Gnostics contradicts what was taught by Jesus and the apostles from the 1st century. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+12:1-3&version=KJV
The Gospel message is simple enough for children to understand.
People like yourself are falling for a different Gospel. Salvation of the BIBLE is through FAITH in in the person, God made flesh, the Lord Jesus Christ, not secret hidden knowledge (Gnosis).

It's also simple enough to understand that after the 2nd century Christianity was made into an institution. Before that there were many different Christian Gospels. And some people think the Gospel of Thomas is older than the New Testament.

After the 4th century the punishment for heresy was death. So I don't believe the people got together, made a church and decided upon the New Testament. I think the Romans forced it on us.

 

[Daciple]

Appreciate the thought, but I already know Christ is my savior.

You are putting your Faith in Gnostic Jesus, Gnostic Jesus isnt going to save you, he doesnt exist, he is lie born from the the Father of liars, the Devil. If you knew Jesus then you wouldnt have spoken as tho you had no clue what Repentance is, you would have Repented already...

As contrasted with born of spirit. We come into this world asleep and blind to the divine spirit within.

There is no Divine Spirit within dormant waiting to be woken up. That the complete opposite of Biblical Jesus.

John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.


Acts 2:2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.

4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

The Holy Spirit isnt already inside of us waiting to be awakened, it come from without and moves into you. The spirit you talk about isnt the Holy Spirit of God or Jesus Christ of the Bible. Its a false spirit...

1 John 4:Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

It can't get any more clear than this. The true kingdom of Christ being right in front of us. So there is no reason to feel guilt or shame. There is nothing to repent from. Jesus only died in appearance, and our resurrections aren't in real time.

You must Repent of believing in this false Jesus and come to know the One True Jesus who is declared in the Bible. You are teaching falsehoods saying that people dont need to Repent, and thus as I said in the very beginning you act as tho this is a simple thing to do, yet here you are fighting tooth and nail against doing just that. Interesting...

The first word of Jesus Ministry is what Aero? Do you know?

Matt 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

First word that Jesus uttered as He started His Ministry is REPENT, and if you look at John the Baptist, Peter, Paul and all the occurrences of Sermons given by the Disciples the first word ALL of them say is, REPENT. Funny how your false Jesus tells you not to Repent, and the Real Jesus says in the very first thing he says is to REPENT. How every single Disciple and Apostle all taught the same exact message REPENT...

It's one of those things that keeps us ignorant and blind to the true kingdom

What does the Word of God say keeps us from seeing the Kingdom?

John 3;3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

You cant see the Kingdom of God until you are Born Again, and you are Born Again ONLY by Repenting and believing in Jesus of the Bible. All other ways lead to Hell, all other ways are false.

Who keeps you Aero from understanding what I am saying to you?

2 Cor 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

The Gospel is hid to them that are Lost by the god of this world, whom is Satan. The father of lies who tells you to believe in that false Jesus, blinds you to the Gospel. The Gospel is you are a Sinner Lost and going to Hell, and Christ died on the Cross for your Sins so that if you Repent and Believe you can have reconciliation back to God with whom you are now separated...

You wont do it tho, but talk as tho its easy, clearly not easy enough for you to accept and believe and repent now is it? Like I said its actually hard and impossible on your own to do, God must convict you thru the Holy Spirit and you must step out in Faith, Repent or change your mind of what you believe and trust in Jesus of the Bible...

Yes. The birth of individuality. The waking up process that Jesus brought to this Earth. Knowing yourself and knowing the kingdom. Amen Gnostic Jesus.

So basically that is a rip off of the actual verses Jesus spoken in the Bible:

Matt 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.

And that has nothing to do with the birth of individuality, or knowing yourself or the kingdom (Can only know the Kingdom by being Born Again). That is saying that Jesus divides people which is exactly what He does. Get Born Again and see how you get cast out of your own home. My mother was the only one Born Again in my home until I was 20, and she was cast out, my father and I hated her speaking of Jesus. When I got Born Again I was cast out by my father, me and mom bonded we talked about Jesus all the time, he got mad and went in the other room. To this day there is tension between us because I am filled with the Spirit and he isnt. He wont even come to my home even tho I live a block away, why? Because the Holy Spirit is there, he gets convicted and feels uncomfortable. That is what Jesus was speaking about, not what you think false Gnostic Jesus is saying...

 

[Aero]

So basically that is a rip off of the actual verses Jesus spoken in the Bible:

Matt 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.

And that has nothing to do with the birth of individuality, or knowing yourself or the kingdom (Can only know the Kingdom by being Born Again). That is saying that Jesus divides people which is exactly what He does. Get Born Again and see how you get cast out of your own home. My mother was the only one Born Again in my home until I was 20, and she was cast out, my father and I hated her speaking of Jesus. When I got Born Again I was cast out by my father, me and mom bonded we talked about Jesus all the time, he got mad and went in the other room. To this day there is tension between us because I am filled with the Spirit and he isnt. He wont even come to my home even tho I live a block away, why? Because the Holy Spirit is there, he gets convicted and feels uncomfortable. That is what Jesus was speaking about, not what you think false Gnostic Jesus is saying...

Or the Church ripped off Gnostic Jesus. Is self rationalization and confirmation bias all that's being offered here? Because I can tell you plenty of stories about spirits and making people uncomfortable. And bringing up Jesus isn't in those stories. Well maybe Gnostic Jesus around you superstitious folks.

Maybe your over enthusiasm and hard line position is what makes people uncomfortable. It doesn't make me uncomfortable, but I can see how it could. Gnostic Jesus speaks my truth. And it's important to note that they had some hard line positions too. You would be considered the uninitiated. Unable to understand the Gnosis and ascend.

In Gnosticism most of you would be reincarnated constantly. Or maybe even cast into the abyss. You would not ascend, as most of you are still consumed by the flesh and material. It's clear as day in your writing.

 

[JoChris]

Or the Church ripped off Gnostic Jesus. Is self rationalization and confirmation bias all that's being offered here? Because I can tell you plenty of stories about spirits and making people uncomfortable. And bringing up Jesus isn't in those stories. Well maybe Gnostic Jesus around you superstitious folks.

Maybe your over enthusiasm and hard line position is what makes people uncomfortable. It doesn't make me uncomfortable, but I can see how it could. Gnostic Jesus speaks my truth. And it's important to note that they had some hard line positions too. You would be considered the uninitiated. Unable to understand the Gnosis and ascend.

In Gnosticism most of you would be reincarnated constantly. Or maybe even cast into the abyss. You would not ascend, as most of you are still consumed by the flesh and material. It's clear as day in your writing.

Gospel of Thomas is believed by most to have been written in 2nd century AD, although there is a camp which dates it much earlier than that. (It would be interesting to know where that latter group stand on the bible overall RE faith in it).
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Thomas
https://carm.org/questions-about-the-gospel-of-thomas
All of the New Testament was written by end of 1st century AD.

I know it's unlikely that a person who wants to choose Gnosticism over biblical Christianity will spend the time, but Dr. James White, a biblical scholar analyses Gospel of Thomas from the Christian perspective extremely well.
Series of radio shows on the topic : http://www.aomin.org/aoblog/?s=Gospel+thomas+

Gnostism is a counterfeit Christianity. Look at its fruits. Departure from evidence supported Holy Scripture, resulting in Faith and Repentance.....
..... to man-made mythology, extremes of legalism and/ or immorality done under the guise of Gnosis or (alleged) Enlightenment.
No genuine holiness from being in fellowship with a Holy God. Genuine faith in the biblical Gospel leads to genuine change, seeking to please God not Self.

 

[Aero]

Gospel of Thomas is believed by most to have been written in 2nd century AD, although there is a camp which dates it much earlier than that. (It would be interesting to know where that latter group stand on the bible overall RE faith in it).
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Thomas
https://carm.org/questions-about-the-gospel-of-thomas
All of the New Testament was written by end of 1st century AD.

I know it's unlikely that a person who wants to choose Gnosticism over biblical Christianity will spend the time, but Dr. James White, a biblical scholar analyses Gospel of Thomas from the Christian perspective extremely well.
Series of radio shows on the topic : http://www.aomin.org/aoblog/?s=Gospel+thomas+

Gnostism is a counterfeit Christianity. Look at its fruits. Departure from evidence supported Holy Scripture, resulting in Faith and Repentance.....
..... to man-made mythology, extremes of legalism and/ or immorality done under the guise of Gnosis or (alleged) Enlightenment.
No genuine holiness from being in fellowship with a Holy God. Genuine faith in the biblical Gospel leads to genuine change, seeking to please God not Self.

I watched some of the link you posted. And I'm well aware of the apologetic game. It's a clever way to self rationalize but it doesn't stand up to real scrutiny. Record keeping in the 1st century? We can't even trust our record keepers in 2017. Apologetics would have us thanking the Romans that crucified people in the name of your Lord. They sure helped them sell some books.

Gnosticism can't be viewed as anything other than heretical. But what change has pleasing your God brought? Besides the most book sales. And crucifixions. I'm being serious too. Like where is the reflection on the world from new testament belief. Because what I can see is we live in a total shit show. I wish the Church had went with Gnosticism instead.

 

[rainerann]

For me as a Muslim many of the problems Muslims face are to do with our connection to the path of right action and the answer lies in the path of non-action which is basically Taoist philosophy.
Islam does of course incorporate both paths within it but Muslims font typically grasp an understanding of how they work and apply to us.
For example Islam and Christianity were at war for a long time and Muslims were repelled from southern France and then eventually driven out of Spain.
Yet after colonialism Islam is in the West.
Thats part of Taoist philosophy.

In Ecclesiastes, Solomon AS expressed this precise wisdom after he'd amassed wealth and power and enjoyed luxuries.
For example there is only so much pleasure a man can handle and then he realises he can't enjoy even simple things so was it worth indulging? Or food music women...and Solomon mentioned them all. He talked about wealth ie that we work all our life for it but don't even stop to enjoy the fruits of our labour only for someone to inherit it.

The point really is about sitting still and allowing things to happen rather then forcing them.

That's a basic but wise philosophy and it's ideas exist in various religious traditions there are elements of it in the Quran and hadith and certainly the NT is full of that wisdom.

It's the underlying wisdom that's important to know for an average person.
Funny thing is I used to do business in Shenzhen China in my younger days so I made a fair few friends for life.
None of them had s clue what the hell the tao te Ching was.
They used to ask me stuff like
"Do you have lots of sex in England?"
Lmao
Truth is most Chinese people don't actually give a shit about philosophies and religion it was western orientalists who glamourised them.
One guy told me that the philosophy is kind of just standard knowledge anyway and he avoided religion because he knew Taoist folk religion was bad...he told me specifically that their priests tell lies and rob people and went as far as telling me that they practice black magic so generally in educated Chinese society they only care about the materialistic life despite old philosophies.

Do you know what this means? It means they'll learn the hard way and when they do they'll need religion .

So the description that I found on the website of the author of Jesus the Sufi, Max Gorman describes something much more along the lines of an eastern Christian sect rather than a branch of Islam. I am not opposed to the idea of the church of Christ growing under different leadership in the eastern direction; whereas, you could say that Paul went north.

In fact, Gorman says "By the Sufis I do not, as I make very clear in my book, mean “Islamic mystics” – the usual misconception – but masters of an ancient tradition of inner teaching, unbound by culture, free-moving, finding those who truly seek, wherever and whenever they are. "http://www.maxgorman.net/?page_id=11

So essentially, an eastern branch of Christianity before the internet that did not maintain communication with the northwest possibly. Therefore, it developed differently which doesn't mean that it would subsequently be false teaching just because they did not have access to the writings of Paul.

So my question is which comes first Sufism or Islamic Sufism and why do you consider yourself a Muslim rather than a Christian? Also, what is the importance of spreading the Gospel and confessing sin according to Sufism? Do you think it is possible that Sufism identifies with Islam based on location more than anything? I think that is a possibility since the presence of Sufism would seem to located in places where Islam is the majority.

Would it be possible that this is a way to avoid persecution and bring the Gospel in places where Islam is the controlling religion of the area rather than Sufism identifying with Islam in a way that it could be considered more of a denomination of Islam rather than Christianity?

 

[JoChris]

I watched some of the link you posted. And I'm well aware of the apologetic game. It's a clever way to self rationalize but it doesn't stand up to real scrutiny. Record keeping in the 1st century? We can't even trust our record keepers in 2017. Apologetics would have us thanking the Romans that crucified people in the name of your Lord. They sure helped them sell some books.

Gnosticism can't be viewed as anything other than heretical. But what change has pleasing your God brought? Besides the most book sales. And crucifixions. I'm being serious too. Like where is the reflection on the world from new testament belief. Because what I can see is we live in a total shit show. I wish the Church had went with Gnosticism instead.

Your entry shows you are not familiar with world history. Where Christianity spread, cultures improved, lives were saved, women's rights/ underprivileged people looked after.

Whenever genuine Christianity is in retreat/ losing its influence, society decays. Ist world countries in decay are post-Christian countries. The countries around the world which are improving financially and morally e.g. China have the increasing amounts of Christian converts. So many in fact the Chinese government is feeling threatened and cracking down on churches.
http://www1.cbn.com/cbnnews/cwn/2017/march/brave-chinese-christians-still-attend-underground-churches-despite-risk-of-persecution

The western churches have lost their "saltiness", through people pleasing watering down of the Gospel. It is not the Gospel which is weak now, it is the so-called Christian churches who are more interested in viewers/ attendees than preaching the Gospel which REPELS false converts. People who love their sin hate the full Gospel.

 

[Aero]

Your entry shows you are not familiar with world history. Where Christianity spread, cultures improved, lives were saved, women's rights/ underprivileged people looked after.

Whenever genuine Christianity is in retreat/ losing its influence, society decays. Ist world countries in decay are post-Christian countries. The countries around the world which are improving financially and morally e.g. China have the increasing amounts of Christian converts. So many in fact the Chinese government is feeling threatened and cracking down on churches.
http://www1.cbn.com/cbnnews/cwn/2017/march/brave-chinese-christians-still-attend-underground-churches-despite-risk-of-persecution

The western churches have lost their "saltiness", through people pleasing watering down of the Gospel. It is not the Gospel which is weak now, it is the so-called Christian churches who are more interested in viewers/ attendees than preaching the Gospel which REPELS false converts. People who love their sin hate the full Gospel.

Not sure why you are still trying to apologize for believing in Christianity. But you really don't need to. I'm well aware of world history, and it's not the rosy picture you paint with your apologies. Christians were heavily persecuted in the early Roman Empire. So your whole argument kind of collapses on itself.

It might be more accurate to say wherever Christianity spreads it destroys. First Rome and the list goes on. Soon it might be America's turn. And I blame you apologists. The over abundances of zeal and anti social behavior doesn't improve culture.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Not sure why you are still trying to apologize for believing in Christianity. But you really don't need to. I'm well aware of world history, and it's not the rosy picture you paint with your apologies. Christians were heavily persecuted in the early Roman Empire. So your whole argument kind of collapses on itself.

It might be more accurate to say wherever Christianity spreads it destroys. First Rome and the list goes on. Soon it might be America's turn. And I blame you apologists. The over abundances of zeal and anti social behavior doesn't improve culture.

Aero - am I reading you right? Do you think the collapse of Rome was due to it's consistent application of Christ's teachings? I must admit this is a new concept to me...

 

[Aero]

Aero - am I reading you right? Do you think the collapse of Rome was due to it's consistent application of Christ's teachings? I must admit this is a new concept to me...

Not really how I feel. Point was that Emperor Constantine converting to Christianity didn't save the Eastern Roman Empire. And I fail to see how apologetics can be viewed as a positive thing for belief.

You asked the question if the gospel makes sense. So I assumed you all didn't want to pat yourselves on the back and self rationalize. That's why I'm saying why it doesn't make sense to me. It doesn't make sense that anyone can trust what's claimed to come from the 1st century.

They wrote like nothing down. Everything was spoken in the 1st century.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Not really how I feel. Point was that Emperor Constantine converting to Christianity didn't save the Eastern Roman Empire. And I fail to see how apologetics can be viewed as a positive thing for belief.

You asked the question if the gospel makes sense. So I assumed you all didn't want to pat yourselves on the back and self rationalize. That's why I'm saying why it doesn't make sense to me. It doesn't make sense that anyone can trust what's claimed to come from the 1st century.

They wrote like nothing down. Everything was spoken in the 1st century.

I think you have a revisionist view of history, Aero. There have been periods of time when knowledge has been thin on the ground and records sparse (think Dark Ages) but for 1st Century Jerusalem, surrounded by Greek and Roman civilisations, writing was more common than you suppose. Perhaps it wasn't something everyone did well, but I doubt they were all illiterate oral tradition guys either!

 

[Daciple]

It doesn't make sense that anyone can trust what's claimed to come from the 1st century.

Yet you quote Gnostic literature and try and make a case that its older than the Biblical Gospels? That somehow it being older makes it more correct? Interesting...

 

[Lady]

Not sure why you are still trying to apologize for believing in Christianity. But you really don't need to. I'm well aware of world history, and it's not the rosy picture you paint with your apologies. Christians were heavily persecuted in the early Roman Empire. So your whole argument kind of collapses on itself.

It might be more accurate to say wherever Christianity spreads it destroys. First Rome and the list goes on. Soon it might be America's turn. And I blame you apologists. The over abundances of zeal and anti social behavior doesn't improve culture.

Your comments regarding destruction of cultures are accurate if you apply them to Islam with its bloody history of forced conversion and death-along with what the western world can witness 1st-hand today.

 

[Aero]

I think you have a revisionist view of history, Aero. There have been periods of time when knowledge has been thin on the ground and records sparse (think Dark Ages) but for 1st Century Jerusalem, surrounded by Greek and Roman civilisations, writing was more common than you suppose. Perhaps it wasn't something everyone did well, but I doubt they were all illiterate oral tradition guys either!

Maybe. Or I'm trying to find some kind of middle ground between what different groups of people are propagating.

Yet you quote Gnostic literature and try and make a case that its older than the Biblical Gospels? That somehow it being older makes it more correct? Interesting..

Yes that's been my whole point. If your text from the 1st century is true from apologetics. Than the Gnostic gospels can just as easily be put in that place. And you would follow the Gnosis.

As far as I'm concerned the bible was written in the 4th or 5th centuries. I don't think anyone can claim with any certainty what's written is accurate. And I feel the same about the Gnostic gospels. I think every religion has bits and pieces to learn from, and believe in.