Does Jesus qualify as an idol?

Douglas Summers

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Does Jesus qualify as an idol?

In reading the various definitions of idol, I think Christians have turned Jesus into the type of idol that he railed against.

We all idol worship in some sense. If you can think analogically you will agree. Here is a poet that might help you do that. He has a good message but he himself ends in being an idol worshiper.


Commandment #3 “You shall have no other gods before[a] me.”

Christians put Jesus before Yahweh.

Commandment #4 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above,

Christian churches are full of carved images.

Gnostic Christians also have an ideal, but we do not let ourselves be subsumed by our own creations and remain perpetual seekers of the best god/rules and laws to live by, as Jesus taught.

I see Christians and Muslims as idol worshipers.

Is Jesus a Christian and Muslim idol and are they idol worshipers as most theologians say?

Regards
DL
Catholics are into idols...The whole religion is based on Idols. Along with many others, like Russian orthodox. They have a look of religion, but no Godly power, and neither are the Muslims a Spiritual entity. Jesus is the only object and that by faith.
 





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I believe you modify the doctrine of atonement at your own peril @Todd

In wanting to have a gospel that will save everyone, like it or not, the clear message of salvation is confused. I think I understand you well enough to know this desire comes from a good heart but I cannot find a meaningful scriptural case for UR that doesn’t require scissors.
I cannot blame our friend for trying not to be a scapegoat user like most Christians.

He seems to know that it would be quite immoral to punish the innocent instead of the guilty or to ask someone to sit there and not step up to his responsibility for their actions and allow an innocent person to take his just punishment.

Do you have children Red?

Would you punish your innocent child while forcing the guilty one to accept it as justice or end in hell or get the beating of his life?

I cannot see you as that vile, so why would you think Jesus to be that vile?

Regards
DL
 





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Catholics are into idols...The whole religion is based on Idols. Along with many others, like Russian orthodox. They have a look of religion, but no Godly power, and neither are the Muslims a Spiritual entity. Jesus is the only object and that by faith.
Commandment #4 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above,

All who fly a carved cross or use any other symbols are idol worshipers.

Have a giggle and a look and try to pick out the non-idol worshipers.


As to faith.

Faith closes the mind. It is pure idol worship.

Faith is a way to quit using, "God given" power of Reason and Logic, and cause the faithful to embrace doctrines that moral people reject.

The God of the OT says, “Come now, and let us reason together,” [Isaiah 1:18]

How can literalists reason on God when they must ignore reason and logic and discard them when turning into literalist?

Those who are literalists can only reply somewhat in the fashion that Martin Luther did.
“Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding.”
“Reason is a whore, the greatest enemy that faith has.”

This attitude effectively kills all worthy communication that non-theists can have with theist. Faith closes the believers mind as it is pure idol worship.

Literalism is an evil practice that hides the true messages of myths. We cannot show our faith based friends that they are wrong through their faith colored glasses. Their faith also plugs their ears.

Regards
DL
 





Todd

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I believe you modify the doctrine of atonement at your own peril @Todd

In wanting to have a gospel that will save everyone, like it or not, the clear message of salvation is confused. I think I understand you well enough to know this desire comes from a good heart but I cannot find a meaningful scriptural case for UR that doesn’t require scissors.
Likewise I can't find a meaningful scriptural case for Eternal torment that doesn't require scissors. Since your objection of my view of atonement seems to based on your objection to the doctrine of Apokatastasis please address how God can be omnipotent and yet at the same time the individual will of a man can supercede the will of God. If you can sufficiently address this oxymoron, then I will reconsider.

As for Jesus dying for our sins this is what the Bible says:
For you have been called for this purpose, since Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example for you to follow in His steps, who committed no sin, nor was any deceit found in His mouth; and while being reviled, He did not revile in return; while suffering He uttered no threats, but kept entrusting Himself to him who judges righteously; and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed. For you were continually straying like sheep, but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Guardian of your souls.

What I typed previously is completely in line with this passage from 1 Peter 2:21-25. Jesus is our example for how we are to live now. IT states nothing about Jesus dying for our sins so we could escape hell in some future tense. It explicitily states Jesus bore our sins so we could die to sin and live to righteousness. I believe that means in the here and now, as the last sentence in the verse is talking present tense not future. This verse does not pertain specifically to the afterlife.

So other than your presupposed objection my belief in UR, what exactly about my post you originaly quoted in this thread to you disagree with?
 





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That's one of the reasons I have rejected the Trinitarain doctrine.
With most respect and gratitude Todd, you are one of the more logical ones.

The worst thing IMHO is when Christians reject Jews for being closed-minded to Christianity (speaking here about the trinity itself, as there have been some great Jewish rebuttals of it throughout history) and to see Muslims as simply too dumb to work out that the trinity is logical and just mindlessly following an illogical doctrine that God is one thing (or, 'non-thing', ontologically).

The irony I witnessed happen within about two replies with Redsky two days ago (respectfully) was that we are not very smart for rejecting the trinity. Then when it is pressed at, or challenged to trinitiarians as such - the response is met with "it is just a mystery" (which has historically been literally the only justification for this doctrine). This does not make for coherent theology, nor ontology, nor polemic against non-trinitarian Christianity, nor against Jews/Muslims and other strict-monotheists.

Even though I am not a Christian myself, I can very much appreciate the position that you have demonstrated in this thread. Peace :)
 





Todd

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You seem to want to believe in the Gnostic Christian universalist god, where there is a heaven but no hell, and show a healthy disrespect for how Christians see god, yet have swallowed a lot of their supernatural garbage.
I beleive there is a hell, or what the Bible calls the lake of Fire, but I think it is remedial and corrective and serves the purpose of purifying all of mankind so that everyone is eventually reconciled to God. Whether the Lake of Fire is a literal lake of physical fire or just figurative term in the bible is up for debate.
You also talk of our free will while ignoring that your bible says we do not have it.
I'm not ignoring anything. I have argued many times on this forum that "free will" is just an illusion. The will of man will never trump the will of God. In the end the will of every man will brought under submission to the will of God.
Are you a Christian or just a wanabe Christian? What denomination are you trying to favor, if any
and why did you choose a homophobic and misogynous religion with a genocidal god?
What's your definition of a Christian? According to many of the mainstream Christians on this forum, I am not a Christian, but I'm not seeking their approval of my beliefs, so it matters little to me. If an unbeliever asks me if I am a Christian I would say yes, but usually add that I don't agree with many of the things that most mainstream Christians believe in. I don't favor any denomination or any form of instituionalized religion.
I originally became a Christian, because something about the gospel resonated within me. When I accepted Jesus as my Lord, something fundamentally changed in my spirit and soul. A the time I did not know any better and had no reason not to accept the teachings of the Christians who introduced me to Jesus. However after 30 years of seeking God and studying the Bible for myself, somewhere along the ling I decided to start thinking for myself and not just accept the doctrine and dogma of institutionalized religion. I'm also not claiming that God is done changing and correcting my beliefs. It's a process and not a one time event.
Answering that will clear things up quite a bit. Please give it a try as the Christians you dislike all run from explaining their motivation.
I don't know if I cleared up anything for you. For the record I don't dislike the Christians I disagree with.
As far as motivation, I just want to represent God and Jesus Christ as accurately as I can. I want people to be drawn to God by my actions and the love I have for others, not because of my doctrine or dogma.
 





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I have argued many times on this forum that "free will" is just an illusion.
I have a little test based on you giving up your free will to my will that shows in an irrefutable way that you have a free will. It is really simple if you wish to try my test.

In the end the will of every man will brought under submission to the will of God.
That was the condition before Satan supposedly was discovered and booted out of heaven.

What makes you think we would do better than a third of the heavenly host at that imaginary time?

What's your definition of a Christian?
Anyone who flies the cross and has a belief or faith in Jesus.

Mind you, if I were to go by the standard that Jesus set for those of faith or belief, that being that they could do all he did and more, then I would have to say that any who clain a belief or faith are liars. If Jesus were real and said that that is. Not likely that.

When I accepted Jesus as my Lord,
Lord? As in Lord and Master?

I see that as showing disrespect for Jesus as he said he came to serve and not be served and here you are offering what he specifically said he did not want.

I let Jesus serve me and was rewarded with an apotheosis and I would suggest you do the same. Having a Christ consciousness is a pain as it forces me to act but otherwise, I would not give it up. Here are your instructions from scriptures. Let me take a jab at your supernatural thinking as well.

Here is the real way to salvation that Jesus taught.

Matthew 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Allan Watts explain those quotes in detail.

Joseph Campbell shows the same esoteric ecumenist idea in this link.

The bible just plainly says to put away the things of children. The supernatural and literal reading of myths.

Christians who introduced me to Jesus
They should have introduced you to the Jesus I just showed. He is the only worthy one.

The Jesus you know has really poor moral and should be rejected for the moral Gnostic Christian Jesus I know. You should be chosing your god by moral standards and not settling for the genocidal god you follow.
If you are following Yahweh that is. I cannot tell when you have discarded so much of the bible to try to make it work for you.

I don't know if I cleared up anything for you.
Not on the points I asked about, which were you choosing a homophobic and misogynous religion with their genocidal god, which you, like most Christians, run from doing apalogetics on as that is kind of impossible.

Regards
DL
 





Douglas Summers

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Commandment #4 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above,

All who fly a carved cross or use any other symbols are idol worshipers.

Have a giggle and a look and try to pick out the non-idol worshipers.


As to faith.

Faith closes the mind. It is pure idol worship.

Faith is a way to quit using, "God given" power of Reason and Logic, and cause the faithful to embrace doctrines that moral people reject.

The God of the OT says, “Come now, and let us reason together,” [Isaiah 1:18]

How can literalists reason on God when they must ignore reason and logic and discard them when turning into literalist?

Those who are literalists can only reply somewhat in the fashion that Martin Luther did.
“Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding.”
“Reason is a whore, the greatest enemy that faith has.”

This attitude effectively kills all worthy communication that non-theists can have with theist. Faith closes the believers mind as it is pure idol worship.

Literalism is an evil practice that hides the true messages of myths. We cannot show our faith based friends that they are wrong through their faith colored glasses. Their faith also plugs their ears.

Regards
DL
Sorry you feel that way, Faith is what has given me access to a personal God and fellowship with Him by His indwelling Spirit. Many claim to have the Holy Spirit, But I have had fellowship with God personally....So I need no other witness. I have seen Him answer prayer that astonished me, and I'm no better than you are. As insignificant as I'am, He will do the same for all who seek Him.
 





Todd

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I have a little test based on you giving up your free will to my will that shows in an irrefutable way that you have a free will. It is really simple if you wish to try my test.
An illusion in other words?
That was the condition before Satan supposedly was discovered and booted out of heaven.
Was it? If you study the bible the allegorical implication is that God created this temporal world as a response to prove that Satan's accustations were false. Satan's accusations against God are what convinced 1/3 of the angels to follow Satan and rebel against God.
What makes you think we would do better than a third of the heavenly host at that imaginary time?
It's not about what we would do, it's about what God will and is doing now. We have already shown we can't do much better than 1/3 of the heavenly host by what this temporal world has become.
Anyone who flies the cross and has a belief or faith in Jesus.
Mind you, if I were to go by the standard that Jesus set for those of faith or belief, that being that they could do all he did and more, then I would have to say that any who clain a belief or faith are liars. If Jesus were real and said that that is. Not likely that.
What did Jesus do that a believer can't do? From what I understand you don't think the suprenatural exists, so there really isn't anything that Jesus did that we couldn't do, as the things viewed as supernatural events in the Bible must have a different explanation according to you.
Lord? As in Lord and Master?

I see that as showing disrespect for Jesus as he said he came to serve and not be served and here you are offering what he specifically said he did not want.
Jesus came to serve so that he could be elevated to the position of Lord. Peter specifically said that because of his obedience God made Jesus both Lord and Christ. This goes along with Jesus said that the first will become last and the last will become first. (Mark 9:35) Peter affirmed this belief when he said "Therefore humble yourselves under the mighty hand of God, that He may exalt you in due time." (1 Peter 5:6) Jesus did come to serve, so that in due time God would exalt him and make him both Lord and Christ.

I let Jesus serve me and was rewarded with an apotheosis and I would suggest you do the same. Having a Christ consciousness is a pain as it forces me to act but otherwise, I would not give it up. Here are your instructions from scriptures. Let me take a jab at your supernatural thinking as well.

Here is the real way to salvation that Jesus taught.

Matthew 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.
And Jesus is that light.
John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
Agreed!
Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
predestinate? How does free will fit in with that?

The bible just plainly says to put away the things of children. The supernatural and literal reading of myths.
Where does the bible say the supernatural is a thing of children? I agree that the seeking of the supernatural is immature. God shows up in the supernatural when he chooses to, not when we conjure it up. I have seen the supernatural both real and the illusion or mind games that Charlatan's play to convince others they possess the ability to conjure the supernatural. The real I have witness always come at the will of God and never at the will of human being.

They should have introduced you to the Jesus I just showed. He is the only worthy one.
You really haven't done that great a job of introducing the Jesus you believe in and you mostly spend time tearing downt the Jesus that others believe in. Maybe you could spend more time sharing what you actually believe versus explaining why what everyone else believes is wrong?

The Jesus you know has really poor moral and should be rejected for the moral Gnostic Christian Jesus I know. You should be chosing your god by moral standards and not settling for the genocidal god you follow.
If you are following Yahweh that is. I cannot tell when you have discarded so much of the bible to try to make it work for you.
See that's the thing about a discussion forum. We can only read about the doctrine and dogma that other people type. We don't really get a chance to observe the character or love that those doctrines and dogma produce in a person that are made evident by their actions. The best doctrine in the world is useless if it doesn't actually procude fruit int he lives of the people who hold to that doctrine. I don't know anything about you outside of your critique of Christianity, so I really have no basis to discern whether your doctrine or dogma produce the fruit of God in your life.

Not on the points I asked about, which were you choosing a homophobic and misogynous religion with their genocidal god, which you, like most Christians, run from doing apalogetics on as that is kind of impossible.
Yeah, your going to have to be a little more specific to engage in real discussion. Random, baseless accusation is not going to motivate me to engage further with you. There is nothing homophobic or misogynous about my faith.
 





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Sorry you feel that way, Faith is what has given me access to a personal God and fellowship with Him by His indwelling Spirit. Many claim to have the Holy Spirit, But I have had fellowship with God personally....So I need no other witness. I have seen Him answer prayer that astonished me, and I'm no better than you are. As insignificant as I'am, He will do the same for all who seek Him.
Nice that you have what I think is the faith of fools.

Since you do have faith, and Jesus says anyone who does have faith, can do everything he did and more, have you begun your miracle working yet?

If not, why not?

Regards
DL
 





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An illusion in other words?
No. An irrefutable test.

How can you call it an illusion when you do not even know how or if the test works?
Seems that in delusional thinking you beat me hand down.

God created this temporal world as a response to prove that Satan's accustations were false.
LOL. Where in scriptures is this foolishness shown?

We have already shown we can't do much better than 1/3 of the heavenly host by what this temporal world has become.
You say while living under moral secular law instead of advocating for your god's garbage laws and morals.
Sound like the usual Christian hypocrisy.

What did Jesus do that a believer can't do? From what I understand you don't think the supernatural exists, so there really isn't anything that Jesus did that we couldn't do, as the things viewed as supernatural events in the Bible must have a different explanation according to you.
Nice reverse onus. Your hypocrisy matches the Christian one.

What I understand is irrelevant to what believers do and the question was to you as a believer. Jesus said you can move a mountain. By that standard, there are none with faith or belief in Jesus. Or is that a part of the scriptures you have cherry picked to ignore?

Where does the bible say the supernatural is a thing of children?
Where it says to put the things of children away. Witches are a part of the supernatural and imaginary world and your scriptures say to kill witches and your religion sure went all in on that and murdered many innocent people. Be proud of your chosen immoral religion.

Maybe you could spend more time sharing what you actually believe versus explaining why what everyone else believes is wrong?
So you think I should try to move Christians to a better moral position without telling them why.

I prefer to fight evil and stop it's growth than try to bring the belligerent and obtuse to my better ideology which is shown by criticizing yours.

Your bible says that that is how love is shown, while you want me to be self-centered and expand my religion. No thanks. Although I am always eager to show why Gnostic Christians are the only good Christians. Do you have a specific question?

We don't really get a chance to observe the character or love that those doctrines and dogma produce in a person that are made evident by their actions.
I do as I see the actions of the homophobia and misogyny that denies many full equality and bigotry.
Not to mention the adoration of a vile genocidal god. The Christian fruit is putrid, just like their ideology.
I would have said yours but you are just a wanabe Christians who has scrapped half your bible.

Jesus came to serve so that he could be elevated to the position of Lord.
The bible says that god never changes and here you have him elevating himself.
How low was he? Satan level?

There is nothing homophobic or misogynous about my faith.
If you meant personal fait, fine.

If you meant the faith, as Christians call their religion, thanks for ending with a lie.

Regards
DL
 





Todd

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No. An irrefutable test.
How can you call it an illusion when you do not even know how or if the test works?
You are right...without knowing the test, I can't say for sure whether it is an illusion or not. Hence the reason for my question mark.
LOL. Where in scriptures is this foolishness shown?
It's a pretty basic theme in the Bible, commonly referred to as the Great Controversy. Google it if your are really interested in understanding it.
You say while living under moral secular law instead of advocating for your god's garbage laws and morals.
Sound like the usual Christian hypocrisy.
What is garbage and immoral about the ten commandments? What is garbage and immoral about "Love the lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength and Love your neighbor as yourself"?

Nice reverse onus. Your hypocrisy matches the Christian one. What I understand is irrelevant to what believers do and the question was to you as a believer. Jesus said you can move a mountain. By that standard, there are none with faith or belief in Jesus. Or is that a part of the scriptures you have cherry picked to ignore?
You really believe Jesus was speaking literally when he said we could move a mountain? When did Jesus himself ever demonstrate this ability to move a physical, literal mountain? I have moved plenty of figurative mountains in my walk of faith.
Where it says to put the things of children away. Witches are a part of the supernatural and imaginary world and your scriptures say to kill witches and your religion sure went all in on that and murdered many innocent people. Be proud of your chosen immoral religion.
My religion has nothing to do with witch hunting. I know of no scriptures that tell me to kill witches.
So you think I should try to move Christians to a better moral position without telling them why.
No I think you should present your ideology/world view/understanding of God. If it contradicts others beliefs, so be it. Your mode of operation is rarely discussing your own ideology and defending it as you are constantly questioning and condemning the beliefs of others, based on presuppostitions that are not always even correct about what others believe.
Your bible says that that is how love is shown, while you want me to be self-centered and expand my religion. No thanks. Although I am always eager to show why Gnostic Christians are the only good Christians. Do you have a specific question?
Is your Gnostic Christianity based on the Bible and if it is, how do you interpret the Bible? If it's not based on the Bible what is it based on?
I do as I see the actions of the homophobia and misogyny that denies many full equality and bigotry.
Fair enough. What actions do you see that result from the doctrines and beliefs that I have defended on this forum?
Not to mention the adoration of a vile genocidal god. The Christian fruit is putrid, just like their ideology.
I would have to agree in part with you on this, which is why I have rejected much of mainstream Christian ideology, doctrine and dogma.
I would have said yours but you are just a wanabe Christians who has scrapped half your bible.
Again, I would like to understand what role the Bible does or doesn't play in your ideology. I don't subscribe to the fundamentalist literal view of the Bible. I don't need to scrap the bible to disagree with the interpretation and application of the bible as portrayed by mainstream Christianity. Mainstream Christianity has made an idol out of the Bible.
Technically from a biblical standpoint, I'm not a Christian. In the New Testament, the followers of Paul where called Christians and the Jewish believers in Jerusalem were called follwers of "The Way". So I suppose I am probably more in line with the follwers of "The Way" then I am with the followers of Paul.

The bible says that god never changes and here you have him elevating himself.
How low was he? Satan level?
How do I have God elevating himself? I said God elevated Jesus. Did you forget I am not a trinitarian?

If you meant personal fait, fine.

If you meant the faith, as Christians call their religion, thanks for ending with a lie.
Yes I meant my personal faith.
 





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What is garbage and immoral about "Love the lord your God with all your heart, soul,
Can you love a genocidal god?

It's a pretty basic theme in the Bible, commonly referred to as the Great Controversy.
Not even one biblical reference. Got it.

What is garbage and immoral about the ten commandments?
There are three sets in scriptures. Which set are you referring to?

If the usual, then the first 4 are god showing his insecurity and self-centeredness.
Is that what you see as moral and good?

This link is good as it speaks from the Jewish POV, which is the people who received all 3 sets of the commandments.


You really believe Jesus was speaking literally when he said we could move a mountain?
No. You believe in a literal Jesus. Are you saying you don't believe what is written of what he said in the same literal way? Do you limit his miracle working power or was he just a man and not a god to you?

My religion has nothing to do with witch hunting. I know of no scriptures that tell me to kill witches.
Exodus 22:18 Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.

presuppositions that are not always even correct about what others believe.
Thanks for calling me a liar without even showing the lie that I defend myself on. You are learning how to chat like a real Christian.
Is your Gnostic Christianity based on the Bible and if it is, how do you interpret the Bible? If it's not based on the Bible what is it based on?
As a branch of Christianity, one of the few good branches, of course we use the bible as our main reference.
I keep a bible in the house even though I think this quote quite correct.

“The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.”
― Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion

Then again, I am a Gnostic Christian and know how to read the filth in it.

Said of Gnostic Christian versus Christian bible reading practices.

“Both read the Bible day and night; but you read black where I read white.”
William Blake.

I would take this further and advise you to read any scriptures from as many POV as is within you. Question everything including yourself.

The bible, if read as a book of wisdom, does have much wisdom though.

You just have to read it the way Gnostics do and revers a lot of the Christian morals.

Christians call evil good while Gnostic Christians call evil, evil.

I E. Gnostic Christians think that bible God, the demiurge to us, is quite immoral for thinking that torturing King David's baby for 6 days before finally killing it is good justice. Gnostic Christians think that evil while Christians think that a good form of justice.

Which group do you think is right?

You wanted me to talk of Gnostic Christianity more so let's do that here by comparing Jesus' based on your answer.

Regards
DL
 





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Fair enough. What actions do you see that result from the doctrines and beliefs that I have defended on this forum?
You are not Christian in my view and I have not read all you put, but you are defending a homophobic and misogynous religion and the notion that a genocidal god can somehow be a good god.
Seems I do recall you saying that Noah's flood id just a story, even though most of not all Christian literalists believe it.

Do you literally believe any of the bible spoken of in this link or have you scrapped those parts of your bible as well?


I would have to agree in part with you on this, which is why I have rejected much of mainstream Christian ideology, doctrine and dogma.
A good moral move, yet you defend a putrid ideology. If you are going to act like a Gnostic free thinker why not take the label and show your better than Christian moral sense like I did? I an an x Catholic that was in your exact position.

Technically from a biblical standpoint, I'm not a Christian. In the New Testament, the followers of Paul where called Christians and the Jewish believers in Jerusalem were called followers of "The Way". So I suppose I am probably more in line with the follwers of "The Way" then I am with the followers of Paul.
I agree. I gave you the way Jesus taught in post 27.

You have to put away the things of children before being able to follow.

If you need the security blanket of a supernatural god, and want to keep that, fine, but if your focus is your moral soul, you will view god as the demiurge prick that he is and seek a good version of god which is what Gnostic Christianity offers.

Do as your bible bids us to do.

1 Thessalonians 5:21 Test all things; hold fast what is good.

A genocidal god cannot be good.

Regards
DL
 





Todd

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Can you love a genocidal god?
I do not love a genocidal God. I love a God whose chosen people misunderstood and misrepresented \him as a genocidal God.
Not even one biblical reference. Got it.
Some other time perhaps, as there is not one specific scripture that explicitily states this and I don't care to eleaborate right now.

There are three sets in scriptures. Which set are you referring to?
If the usual, then the first 4 are god showing his insecurity and self-centeredness.
Is that what you see as moral and good?
That's your opinion. I don't see insecruity or self-centerdness.
This link is good as it speaks from the Jewish POV, which is the people who received all 3 sets of the commandments.

I might take a look later, but the Jewish POV is not authortative to me. otherwise I would become a religious jew. Not that I can't learn something from their point of view though..

No. You believe in a literal Jesus. Are you saying you don't believe what is written of what he said in the same literal way? Do you limit his miracle working power or was he just a man and not a god to you?
No, I don't believe Jesus was saying we would move physical, literal mountains by praying. Jesus had no miracle working power himself. "30I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me."

Exodus 22:18 Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.
Without going into detail this was a specific command given to the israelites than anyone among them who practiced witchcraft was not allowed to remain a resident or citizen (i.e. live amongst them) of the holy nation of God's people. Poor translation and literalism leads one to pressume that this verse is commanding Christians or anyone else to physically kill those who practice witchcraft.
Thanks for calling me a liar without even showing the lie that I defend myself on. You are learning how to chat like a real Christian.
I'm not calling you a liar. Presuppostition and lies are not the same thing. Someone can have a false presupposition based on misunderstanding or ignorance. It's not the same thing as lying. For example you pressumed I believed Jesus is God which is incorrect. It doesn't make you a liar.
As a branch of Christianity, one of the few good branches, of course we use the bible as our main reference.
I keep a bible in the house even though I think this quote quite correct.

“The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.”
― Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion
Thanks for clearing that up. I would agree that the image of God portrayed by mainstream Christians who believe in eternal torments fits this description also, but that doesn't mean it's true.

Then again, I am a Gnostic Christian and know how to read the filth in it.

Said of Gnostic Christian versus Christian bible reading practices.

“Both read the Bible day and night; but you read black where I read white.”
William Blake.

I would take this further and advise you to read any scriptures from as many POV as is within you. Question everything including yourself.

The bible, if read as a book of wisdom, does have much wisdom though.
Agreed to a point.
You just have to read it the way Gnostics do and revers a lot of the Christian morals.

Christians call evil good while Gnostic Christians call evil, evil.

I E. Gnostic Christians think that bible God, the demiurge to us, is quite immoral for thinking that torturing King David's baby for 6 days before finally killing it is good justice. Gnostic Christians think that evil while Christians think that a good form of justice.

Which group do you think is right?

You wanted me to talk of Gnostic Christianity more so let's do that here by comparing Jesus' based on your answer.

Regards
DL
I have no problem discussing these things. I disagree with the gnostic idea of a demiurge and think it is the misunderstanding of God and his ways that the OT authors or in this case the supposed prophet Nathan think God personally killed King David's baby because of King David's sin. Ezekiel 18:20 makes it clear that this in not the case. Jesus also addressed this false belief that sickness or deformity (blindness in this particular case) was the result of the sins of a parent in John 9:1-12.
 





Todd

Star
Joined
Apr 16, 2017
Messages
2,102
You are not Christian in my view and I have not read all you put, but you are defending a homophobic and misogynous religion and the notion that a genocidal god can somehow be a good god.
Seems I do recall you saying that Noah's flood id just a story, even though most of not all Christian literalists believe it.
I'm not really concerned if I'm Christian in your view or not. Where have I defended homophobic and misogynous religion?

Do you literally believe any of the bible spoken of in this link or have you scrapped those parts of your bible as well?



A good moral move, yet you defend a putrid ideology. If you are going to act like a Gnostic free thinker why not take the label and show your better than Christian moral sense like I did? I an an x Catholic that was in your exact position.
Because my faith is still based on the resurrection of Christ.

I agree. I gave you the way Jesus taught in post 27.

You have to put away the things of children before being able to follow.

If you need the security blanket of a supernatural god, and want to keep that, fine, but if your focus is your moral soul, you will view god as the demiurge prick that he is and seek a good version of god which is what Gnostic Christianity offers.

Do as your bible bids us to do.

1 Thessalonians 5:21 Test all things; hold fast what is good.

A genocidal god cannot be good.

Regards
DL
I do test all things, hence the reason I have rejected much of the orthodox doctrine and dogma, I was taught and once taught to others myself.

I don't see why you have to dismiss the supernatural to have a moral view of God. I have experienced the supernatural personally, so it's kind of hard to dismiss something you have experienced for yourself, wouldn't you say?

I might need you to explain your definition of the supernatural, to make sure we are talking about the same thing.
 





Douglas Summers

Veteran
Joined
Jun 1, 2018
Messages
974
Nice that you have what I think is the faith of fools.

Since you do have faith, and Jesus says anyone who does have faith, can do everything he did and more, have you begun your miracle working yet?

If not, why not?

Regards
DL
Christ said, we would do greater works (John 14:12). What works do you think He meant...Changing water into wine, No. Calming a storm, Yes, I have witnessed it. But Christ greatest works were SALVATION unto mankind, and those that have been born again, have spread the Gospel that He gave His life for to satisfy the penalty of sin to those who believe in His message, sacrifice and resurrection. Those are the greater works He was talking about through the ages by His elect. But to the one that believes he is just as good as any other man and does not need Christ.........Salvation is not a greater work. The Jews asked for signs, the Greeks seek after carnal wisdom, But the greatest works is Love (1 Corinthians chapter 13)
 





Joined
Oct 30, 2017
Messages
1,674
I do not love a genocidal God. I love a God whose chosen people misunderstood and misrepresented \him as a genocidal God.
You will never understand how the chosen people, the Jews, see god unless you get into Midrash as that is how they end with a winning god instead of the loser Christianity came up with.
I E. Jews see Eden as where man was elevated and not where he fell. If I recall, I already gave you a link on this.

That's your opinion. I don't see insecruity or self-centerdness.
Willful ignorance.

I might take a look later, but the Jewish POV is not authortative to me. otherwise I would become a religious jew. Not that I can't learn something from their point of view though..
I know their thinking well and did not become a religious Jew but for you to not give authority to the opinion of those that invented Yahweh is to give authority to a second hand account instead of the original. Willful ignorance again.

Poor translation and literalism leads one to pressume that this verse is commanding Christians or anyone else to physically kill those who practice witchcraft.
A poor translation, perhaps, but the Christians sure enjoyed the many murders that they did. That was when the inquisitions had already purged and murdered many thousands. The right wing loony Christians are still trying to get others to kill witches.

God personally killed King David's baby because of King David's sin.
Do you see justice in that and is that the god you are trying to get closer to?

Regards
DL
 





Joined
Oct 30, 2017
Messages
1,674
Where have I defended homophobic and misogynous religion?
Any who defend any of the mainstream gods or religions are defending a homophobic and misogynous religion.

That is undeniable unless you are talking the extreme left. If so. Find a secular or atheist religion.

Because my faith is still based on the resurrection of Christ.
Supernatural B.S.

This is likely too long for you but what the hell.


I have experienced the supernatural personally, so it's kind of hard to dismiss something you have experienced for yourself, wouldn't you say?
Absolutely.

I have claimed apotheosis myself, the reward of seeking god, and you would think that Christians would ask about that but they never do because they do not really believe or have faith in their religion.

Tell us your anecdotal story and how you activated you the telepathy that is required to communicate with god.

I might need you to explain your definition of the supernatural, to make sure we are talking about the same thing.
I cannot define it any better than the dictionaries. I offer no new definition and if you are close to the dictionary definition, I will agree with your definition.

Defining well defined words is a cop out and you have picked and chosen what to cop out on above.
No, I will not waste my time listing them.

Regards
DL
 





Joined
Oct 30, 2017
Messages
1,674
Christ said, we would do greater works (John 14:12). What works do you think He meant...Changing water into wine, No. Calming a storm, Yes, I have witnessed it. But Christ greatest works were SALVATION unto mankind, and those that have been born again, have spread the Gospel that He gave His life for to satisfy the penalty of sin to those who believe in His message, sacrifice and resurrection. Those are the greater works He was talking about through the ages by His elect. But to the one that believes he is just as good as any other man and does not need Christ.........Salvation is not a greater work. The Jews asked for signs, the Greeks seek after carnal wisdom, But the greatest works is Love (1 Corinthians chapter 13)
You have swallowed a lie and don’t care how evil you make Jesus to keep your feel good get out of hell free card.

It is a lie, first and foremost because, like it or not, having another innocent person suffer or die for the wrongs you have done, --- so that you might escape responsibility for having done them, --- is immoral. To abdicate your personal responsibility for your actions or use a scapegoat is immoral.

You also have to ignore what Jesus, as a Jewish Rabbi, would have taught his people.

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Deuteronomy 24:16 (ESV) "Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.

Psa 49;7 None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:

There is no way that you would teach your children to use a scapegoat to escape their just punishments and here you are doing just that.

Jesus is just a smidge less immoral than his demiurge genocidal father, and here you are trying to put him as low in moral fibre as Yahweh. Satan applauds you though as you are doing her work.

Regards
DL
 





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