Does God's foreknowledge really imply determinism?

TokiEl

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What concessions? Marginalized how? Every city no matter the size has multiple churches.
Yes we are very grateful that our churches which have stood the test of time are still standing.

Jesus Christ have been kicked out of public institutions except churches as you said. Although it would be very strange to attend church and no longer be allowed to say His name.
 
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Yes we are very grateful that our churches which have stood the test of time are still standing.

Jesus Christ have been kicked out of public institutions except churches as you said. Although it would be very strange to attend church and no longer be allowed to say His name.

America is and was always intended to be a secular government , that in no way implies Christian persecution.

Theocracies don’t work and have historically led to some pretty awful things, and still do.
 

Red Sky at Morning

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I found it interesting going round the theme parks in Orlando - every now and then there would be someone wearing a T-Shirt with a Bible verse on or an overtly Christian message. I would listen to the radio and there would be Christian channels with praise music playing. Perhaps because I felt an alien to the culture, it made me think more.

Back in England there has been a drive for "British Values" in society and especially schools. Tolerance, celebrating diversity, pluralism etc etc are the lessons the kids are getting. In short the intellectual left and the spiritually apostate or liberal have control of the media and the education system.

In some ways I liked the US better, in others the way you are forced to go against the flow in the UK in order to stand for Jesus is not a bad thing, especially as it reminds you to put on your spiritual armour.
 

TokiEl

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America is and was always intended to be a secular government , that in no way implies Christian persecution.

Theocracies don’t work and have historically led to some pretty awful things, and still do.
Christianity was the blue collar spirit of America but the Luciferians in Washington have ever so slowly almost extinguished that spirit.
 
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I found it interesting going round the theme parks in Orlando - every now and then there would be someone wearing a T-Shirt with a Bible verse on or an overtly Christian message. I would listen to the radio and there would be Christian channels with praise music playing. Perhaps because I felt an alien to the culture, it made me think more.

Back in England there has been a drive for "British Values" in society and especially schools. Tolerance, celebrating diversity, pluralism etc etc are the lessons the kids are getting. In short the intellectual left and the spiritually apostate or liberal have control of the media and the education system.

In some ways I liked the US better, in others the way you are forced to go against the flow in the UK in order to stand for Jesus is not a bad thing, especially as it reminds you to put on your spiritual armour.
Tolerance and diversity certainly should be taught to the youth.

Are the British Authorities actively shutting down churches, imprisoning believers or censoring your speech?


Christianity was the blue collar spirit of America but the Luciferians in Washington have ever so slowly almost extinguished that spirit.
What’s hurt Christianity is American Evangelicalism, it’s a hate filled political movement that has at its origins an explicitly anti-labor cause. It’s been fused with ultra-fundamentalist literalism that is anti-science and reason and takes the wrong side on every social issue and exploits the poor in a decidedly unchristian fashion.


If you want the names of the people responsible for this they are

Abram Vereide
Doug Coe
Billy Graham

And especially John Rushdoony, there are of course others but these heretics are largely responsible for the declining state of Christianity in America and the west ( i realize they are all dead but their heirs live on)
 

Todd

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What is the POINT of Him throwing people into Hell if He is the one who FORCED them NOT to Repent and Accept the Gospel?
The point is that God gets his way because his will is greater than ours and the point of hell is to purify and purge us of sin whether we want it or ask for it. I'm not bound to the eternal torment doctrine like you, so I am free to acknowledge that our will is not greater than God's will. Your indoctrination to eternal torment prevents you from being able to even consider that man's will and desire is subordinate and inferior to God's.

I believe that God allows us to think that we have a measure of free will, because it's an intergral part of our process in learning that ultimately he will always be the only capable and worthy of being in control. He allows us to think we are in control so that we can see the end result of what happens when anyone other than God is in control.
 

Todd

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Your entire system of Theology is so corrupt man, it is ridiculous, hope you (not God forcing you) Repent of it all and stop telling these lies to others. Seriously hope you are not in a position to teach and lead others because you are going to teach them some straight garbage...
Well hallelujah that our salvation is not dependent on our theology being correct, otherwise I don't think anyone of us would be saved. I'm sorry that I'm not afraid to step out of the orthodox doctrine of man and upset your unstable little 3 wheeled theology cart.

15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits.Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit.19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

Interesting that Jesus never said to be aware of people whose doctrine we didn't agree with. He specifically told us to discern people by their fruit, not their theology. Since you aren't in a position to know or discern the fruit of my faith, you don't really have a biblical leg to stand on here by judging me. I don't know anything about the fruit you bear in your life, so despite what we might disagree about when it comes to doctrine, I don't have reason to doubt or question your faith or your relationship with God.

Both my personal experience and the bible tell me that correct doctrine and theology are not a pre-requisite for bearing fruit and being used by God. A humble and contrite heart is...

I take no credit for God softening my heart and making it pliable in his hands. It's all by his will and his doing...
 

TokiEl

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What’s hurt Christianity is American Evangelicalism, it’s a hate filled political movement that has at its origins an explicitly anti-labor cause. It’s been fused with ultra-fundamentalist literalism that is anti-science and reason and takes the wrong side on every social issue and exploits the poor in a decidedly unchristian fashion.
Washington pushed evolution abortion and homosexuality... while exporting millions of jobs and importing millions of immigrants gangs and drugs.Washington has been waging wars on credit.

There is no way in hell that America can save itself.


 

Todd

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Actually, the Bible talks a lot about doctrine, and even warns Christians to keep away from those bringing unsound/false doctrine. I'm not understanding how you came to the conclusion it's not important -
Let me clarify what I was saying. It's not that doctrine is not relevant at all, but what Jesus was saying is that you judge doctrine on the fruit it produces. I was simply saying that the only thing @Daciple can possibly know about me is the mechanics of my doctrine. He has little way of judging the fruit of my doctrine, as he has little way of observing my love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, or self-control.

Rom 16:17 I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them. 18 For such people are not serving our Lord Christ, but their own appetites. By smooth talk and flattery they deceive the minds of naive people.
I have never allowed my differences in doctrine to cause division in a local church body or congregation.

2 Jn 1:9 Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. 10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take him into your house or welcome him. 11 Anyone who welcomes him shares in his wicked work.
back up a few verses and read what John is actually talking about. 7I say this because many deceivers have gone out into the world. They deny that Jesus Christ came in a real body. Such a person is a deceiver and an antichrist. 8Watch out that you do not lose what wee have worked so hard to achieve. Be diligent so that you receive your full reward. 9Anyone who wanders away from this teaching has no relationship with God. But anyone who remains in the teaching of Christ has a relationship with both the Father and the Son.
I have never denied that Jesus Christ came in a real body. I have never denied that he is exactly what the Bible teaches him to be. The christ, the messiah, the lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world.

1 Tim 6:3 If anyone advocates a different doctrine, and does not agree with sound words, those of our Lord Jesus Christ, and with the doctrine conforming to godliness, 4 he is conceited and understands nothing; but he has a morbid interest in controversial questions and disputes about words, out of which arise envy, strife, abusive language, evil suspicions, 5 and constant friction between men of depraved mind and deprived of the truth, who suppose that godliness is a means of gain.
Again back up a few verses and see the context...
6 Let as many servants as are under the yoke count their own masters worthy of all honour, that the name of God and his doctrine be not blasphemed.2 And they that have believing masters, let them not despise them, because they are brethren; but rather do them service, because they are faithful and beloved, partakers of the benefit. These things teach and exhort.

So this one is really more about outward actions and the fruit of doctrine, rather than the mechanics of doctrine.

Titus 1:9 He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it. 10 For there are many rebellious people, mere talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision group. 11 They must be silenced, because they are ruining whole households by teaching things they ought not to teach – and that for the sake of dishonest gain.
For sake of space I will not quote the whole chapter...you can read for yourself. Titus Chapter 1 is all about fruit and the works that are evident in the leaders of the church. No real arguments about the form or mechanics of doctrine. Paul is agreeing that the fruit of the spirit is what should be observed as evidence of good or bad leader...not his doctrine.

1 Tim 1:8 We know that the law is good if one uses it properly. 9 We also know that law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious; for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, 10 for adulterers and perverts, for slave traders and liars and perjurers – and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine 11 that conforms to the glorious gospel of the Blessed God, which He entrusted to me.
Fruit observed through works once again....

A false prophet specifically refers to someone who spreads false doctrine and lies, so fruits isn't just about works.
We can agree to disagree....
It isn't just about works, but works/fruit are the evidence that we are biblically encouraged and allowed to use to discern leaders.
 

gcha8e

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I mean that's a personal philosophy one can hold to try and rationalize away the grievances you create against God for people choosing to go to Hell, however the Bible tells us with no uncertain terms that God indeed knows and looks into the Future.

1 Peter 1:9 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you.


Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

God knew Christ was going to come and die for our Sins, He looked into the Future even before the foundation of the World and saw the Blood of His Son and Jesus knew before the creation of the World that He would have to endure the Cross.

To say otherwise is to ignore clear scripture on God's foreknowledge. He knows everything, Christ literally took up All of your Sins, and the Wrath of All of your Sins 2000 yrs ago. God knew YOU before you were in your mother's womb and He knew ALL of your Sins and He knew this before the foundation of the World.

We can quote dozens of Scriptures that all confess to God knowing everything and looking into the Future. I mean how exactly do you describe Prophecy then? God has David write exactly how Jesus would be murdered hundreds of years before Christ came but God didn't look into the Future and Know that there would be a method of torture that results in Christs having His hands and feet pierced? A method of torture that didn't exist at the time of David?

That He literally describes Christ not having any of His bones broken that He would be numbered with the Sinners, that He would be spit upon and mocked, that people would literally tell Him to save Himself if He really were God/the Messiah?

No offense but Prophecy alone destroys your the fundamental aspect of your ideology, and the facts are God saw into the Future and inspired David and all the Prophets to write all about the coming of His Son who died on the Cross whose Blood was spilled since before the foundation of the World..
God predicts the future prophetically, of course, but the question is how he knows. I say that God controls events by interracting with the universe carefully and subtly to guide human actions toward the outcome he has pre planned. The outcomes he speaks of as certain because he ensures they occur, not because they happened ahead of us in "time".

The idea of a "future" is the issue. There is no such thing as a future in any sense of reality. God speaks of the future AS THOUGH it were a reality out of the confidence he will accomplish his goals.

You may quote all the scripture you like of God predicting the future, none of it demonstrates that the future is a real thing in reality, and none of it shows God going ahead or back in time, either by traveling there are looking there.
 

gcha8e

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Consider the implications of this ancient puzzle...

The Greek philosopher Zeno wrote a book of paradoxes nearly 2,500 years ago. “Achilles and the Tortoise” is the easiest to understand, but it’s devilishly difficult to explain away. For those who haven’t already learned it, here are the basics of Zeno’s logic puzzle, as we understand it after generations of retelling:

Achilles, the fleet-footed hero of the Trojan War, is engaged in a race with a lowly tortoise, which has been granted a head start. Achilles’ task initially seems easy, but he has a problem. Before he can overtake the tortoise, he must first catch up with it. While Achilles is covering the gap between himself and the tortoise that existed at the start of the race, however, the tortoise creates a new gap. The new gap is smaller than the first, but it is still a finite distance that Achilles must cover to catch up with the animal. Achilles then races across the new gap. To Achilles’ frustration, while he was scampering across the second gap, the tortoise was establishing a third. The upshot is that Achilles can never overtake the tortoise. No matter how quickly Achilles closes each gap, the slow-but-steady tortoise will always open new, smaller ones and remain just ahead of the Greek hero.

https://slate.com/technology/2014/03/zenos-paradox-how-to-explain-the-solution-to-achilles-and-the-tortoise-to-a-child.html

Some philosophical positions can be patently untrue yet make for lengthy debate. As it turns out quantum theory eventually found the rebuttal in the shape of reality being quantized and not infinitely divisible. This answer came some considerable time after the question!

In the same way, the answer to the question of freedom and predestination will likely lie in a comprehension of the mind of God Himself, the fullness of which we see, at best, through a glass, darkly!
I think the answer to the puzzle was not solved in discovery of the shape of reality, but rather in simply mathematics. I learned the proof Calculus 2 that shows how it works. It doesn't really need to go deeper than that.

As far as the mind of God, I take the approach we can always get closer, but that getting actually close is not a thing to strive for. We'll never get there. Really I think the answer is to digest that meaning of scripture as often metaphorical, hyperbolic, and colorful.

For example, when John says that children of God were begotten not by the will of man but of God....(John 1:13) it could be understood from this in combination with other passages that God's will indicates his plan for the universe before the "foundation" of the world.

But, it could also be that there are factors that God observes within the world, in people, that trigger his interaction and spiritual relationship with individuals which causes a spiritual "rebirth".

I take the second view. I might even go so far as to say that our DNA is a factor in which some people are born of the devil in that they are born with a predetermined genetic disposition toward rebellion from God and self determinism. Alternatively, the saints may be born with a sense of a higher deity. This view is obviously dependent upon the ideas from Genesis that include Angels procreating with humans, or even Eve procreating with Satan (the forbidden fruit being an allegory about a sexual encounter with the serpent).

The point being, ultimately, that God did not decide before the universe exactly which people would be born, and which ones would be saved and which not. Rather, he set a world in motion with certain forces in play, which produced a landscape (Parable of the Sower) of life procreation that was wild (wild grape vines) and in need of taming. His plan to save the world necessitated a select few prophecies and predictions about certain roles that would be played and certain heroes he would employ.
 

Daciple

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Well hallelujah that our salvation is not dependent on our theology being correct, otherwise I don't think anyone of us would be saved. I'm sorry that I'm not afraid to step out of the orthodox doctrine of man and upset your unstable little 3 wheeled theology cart.
Well there are definite aspects of ones Theology that must be correct in order to be saved. Of course according to your made up Theology, one can literally worship Satan and they are all good...

It is funny you call what Christians believe "doctrine of man" when you, a man, have made up your own doctrines of which no one would agree with them all, thus if anyone here is believing in "doctrine of man" that would be you sir. Your own made up doctrine, your own made up Theology, with your own made up god...

Interesting that Jesus never said to be aware of people whose doctrine we didn't agree with.
Really?

Even tho you just tried your hardest to accuse others of that which Jesus Himself stated?

Matt 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Jesus is literally telling others to be aware of people whose doctrine doesnt line up with His/Gods.

Matt 16:6 Then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.
12 Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.

Again we have Jesus telling His disciples to be aware of the false doctrine that was taught by the Pharisees and Sadduccees, telling them NOT to mix their false doctrine with His true doctrine.

It is clear that Jesus was concerned about correct doctrine and warned us against having false teachers and their doctrines infecting and ruining His correct doctrine. We can also point to the other Apostles whom all state how very important our doctrine is and literally tell us not to even wish those with the incorrect doctrine godspeed. However because every Christian on this site is continually calling you and your doctrine out as being some of those doctrines that false, you constantly are resorting to this idea that doctrine really doesnt matter.

In fact in your false doctrine, no doctrine matters in the end, so I understand why you are so insistent on rejecting the need to have correct doctrine...

Since you aren't in a position to know or discern the fruit of my faith, you don't really have a biblical leg to stand on here by judging me.
Actually we are told not ONLY to judge by their fruits but also if what is taught lines up to the Bible. Again in this false doctrine you are again professing, if someone follows Hinduism and they say it produces, joy happiness and the other Fruits of the Spirit, then we would just have to say well I cant judge that, Hinduism is great!!

But of course that is a lie, if they follow Hinduism regardless of what outward affects they state it produces, we can indeed Judge them by their doctrine of denying Christ ect, and Judge them by the standards and truth of what the Bible states and we are correct in our Judgement of their false teachings and doctrine.

I mean over and over the Bible tells and warns us to watch out for False Teachers, but if these teachers say they are producing Fruits of the Spirit, you want us to believe we cant actually Judge them by their actual teachings? Lets take for example Joel Olsteen, he is a False Teacher, almost everyone on the site would say he is teaching a false teacher, yet he could say that he is producing the Fruits of the Spirit and now you would tell us not to Judge him as a false teacher...

No, we Judge him as a False Teacher because he is teaching a false gospel, is he teaching lies continually, regardless of what "Fruits of the Spirit" he says it produces, his doctrine doesnt line up with the Bible. I say the exact same thing about you, your doctrine does not at all line up with the Bible, you are a False Teacher. And while the other Christians on this site arent as vocal about pin pointing you as such, each them have continually tried to rebuke you for what you teach on this site, and you dont care. You reject all of our constant warnings and admonishments. And constantly create new reasons why we are not to Judge you or your doctrine.

We are all following the Word of God concerning Judging False Teachers, what we are doing is Biblical regardless of your continuance of rejecting our heart felt pleas to see you Repent and stop teaching these False Doctrines...

I don't know anything about the fruit you bear in your life, so despite what we might disagree about when it comes to doctrine, I don't have reason to doubt or question your faith or your relationship with God.
If you truly believed in your doctrine and that it IS the Truth then you OUGHT to doubt much of what I do, but at the same time because of your doctrine I could see why you really wouldnt care. Your doctrine is pretty much Do What Thou Wilt...

Both my personal experience and the bible tell me that correct doctrine and theology are not a pre-requisite for bearing fruit and being used by God
Then you are not reading the same Bible I am nor are you living in the same World I live in where everyone says they are Christians and Saved but cant even pick up their Bible for years. A World of people who reject every doctrine in the Bible but tell me they are going to Heaven, where they believe outright Heresies and then teach them to others and claim they are Prophets of God or Pastors.

Doctrine indeed matters, so much so that God sent dozens of Prophets, Apostles, Disciples and even His own Son who many died to establish and carry forward these Doctrines. Who gave their lives to defend and to protect them against False Teachers and Heretics so that the Truth wouldnt be destroyed by these liars and wolves in sheep clothing. They put it in their writing to watch mark and avoid those who reject Doctrines and indeed state those who dont adhere to these Doctrines not only cant and wont be used by God but are actually being used by the Devil to subvert believers and potential believers...

It would be wise for you to actually read and heed these warnings, and if you REALLY felt that your Doctrine was the TRUTH you should be marking all of the Christians here who are constantly rebuking you and your Doctrine and calling them what we would be, which is False Teachers and being used of the Devil for telling people such terrible lies about God. You know what the Bible teaches we do concerning False Teachers...

The point is that God gets his way because his will is greater than ours and the point of hell is to purify and purge us of sin whether we want it or ask for it.
So I dont think you grasped the gist of my post, I was speaking as tho your False Doctrine was correct. If we dont have Free Will then God is literally creating people who He DOESNT want to Repent, who He DOESNT want to accept the Gospel and He IS creating them ONLY for the purpose of being thrown into Hell to suffer for the Sin THEY ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR!!

I really dont understand how anyone can believe we dont have Free Will and NOT believe that God is a horrible monster that is ultimately responsible for Sin!!!

He made us with zero ability NOT to Sin, then holds us Responsible for the Sin forced us to do, and THEN we suffer in this World for all the ills of Sin we all endure, which He made each of us all do and go thru, and THEN He throws us into Hell to be tortured until the Sin He made us do is somehow alleviated.

That my friend is the definition of the most Evil Horrible Monster that could ever exist. Your god is terrible...

I'm not bound to the eternal torment doctrine like you, so I am free to acknowledge that our will is not greater than God's will. Your indoctrination to eternal torment prevents you from being able to even consider that man's will and desire is subordinate and inferior to God's.
Regardless of Eternal Torment or not, to lay all Sin at the foot of God and all Evil at the foot of God is horrendous #1 and #2 goes against everything the Bible teaches about who God is!! The god you are teaching others about now is a monster period...

I believe that God allows us to think that we have a measure of free will, because it's an intergral part of our process in learning that ultimately he will always be the only capable and worthy of being in control. He allows us to think we are in control so that we can see the end result of what happens when anyone other than God is in control.
So He sets up everything where He actually is forcing us to Sin, but makes us think its our fault because He creates an illusion that we have Free Will and then we have the guilt that essentially comes with the Free Will choices we make against our Creator, but in reality Hes just trying to prove to us that He made us Sin and made us feel guilt that we shouldnt and Hes going to throw us into Hell and torture us all to prove what happens when anyone other than Him is in control?

Again man everything you state just makes God out to be a sadistic vengeful monster that lies to us and tortures us for His own power trip.

Thank God He is nothing like that, and He is pretty much the opposite of the monster you created to worship. The real God isnt responsible for my Sins, I am and what I actually deserve is a place in Hell. I deserve to be wiped out and destroyed for my rebellion against the one who Created and Sustains me, but because God loves me, He sent His Son to take the Wrath I deserve and has offered me Grace instead of the punishment I am truly due.

And Jesus Death on the Cross wipes away ALL of my Sins, not some or part but every single Sin I have or will ever commit, therefore for me and ALL who believe in Christ NONE of us will spend one second in Hell. The only burning I will ever have to face is the burning in my bones that makes it impossible for me to stop talking about Christ and what He has done for me!!

Your False Doctrine asserts that Jesus Blood isnt enough and when we uncover the depths of your False Doctrine you are teaching that even Christians who 100% believe and have all Faith in Christ STILL GO TO HELL, to burn off whatever Sin we cant repent of in this life. Trash, straight trash, Jesus has taken 100% of the Wrath I deserve and I nor anyone who believes in Him will ever go near Hell. This world is as bad as it will ever be for us, and this world is as good as it gets for those who reject Him...

I would never worship the god you profess man, and I hope no one else will either...
 

Todd

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Well there are definite aspects of ones Theology that must be correct in order to be saved. Of course according to your made up Theology, one can literally worship Satan and they are all good...

It is funny you call what Christians believe "doctrine of man" when you, a man, have made up your own doctrines of which no one would agree with them all, thus if anyone here is believing in "doctrine of man" that would be you sir. Your own made up doctrine, your own made up Theology, with your own made up god...



Really?

Even tho you just tried your hardest to accuse others of that which Jesus Himself stated?

Matt 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Jesus is literally telling others to be aware of people whose doctrine doesnt line up with His/Gods.

Matt 16:6 Then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.
12 Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.

Again we have Jesus telling His disciples to be aware of the false doctrine that was taught by the Pharisees and Sadduccees, telling them NOT to mix their false doctrine with His true doctrine.

It is clear that Jesus was concerned about correct doctrine and warned us against having false teachers and their doctrines infecting and ruining His correct doctrine. We can also point to the other Apostles whom all state how very important our doctrine is and literally tell us not to even wish those with the incorrect doctrine godspeed. However because every Christian on this site is continually calling you and your doctrine out as being some of those doctrines that false, you constantly are resorting to this idea that doctrine really doesnt matter.

In fact in your false doctrine, no doctrine matters in the end, so I understand why you are so insistent on rejecting the need to have correct doctrine...



Actually we are told not ONLY to judge by their fruits but also if what is taught lines up to the Bible. Again in this false doctrine you are again professing, if someone follows Hinduism and they say it produces, joy happiness and the other Fruits of the Spirit, then we would just have to say well I cant judge that, Hinduism is great!!

But of course that is a lie, if they follow Hinduism regardless of what outward affects they state it produces, we can indeed Judge them by their doctrine of denying Christ ect, and Judge them by the standards and truth of what the Bible states and we are correct in our Judgement of their false teachings and doctrine.

I mean over and over the Bible tells and warns us to watch out for False Teachers, but if these teachers say they are producing Fruits of the Spirit, you want us to believe we cant actually Judge them by their actual teachings? Lets take for example Joel Olsteen, he is a False Teacher, almost everyone on the site would say he is teaching a false teacher, yet he could say that he is producing the Fruits of the Spirit and now you would tell us not to Judge him as a false teacher...

No, we Judge him as a False Teacher because he is teaching a false gospel, is he teaching lies continually, regardless of what "Fruits of the Spirit" he says it produces, his doctrine doesnt line up with the Bible. I say the exact same thing about you, your doctrine does not at all line up with the Bible, you are a False Teacher. And while the other Christians on this site arent as vocal about pin pointing you as such, each them have continually tried to rebuke you for what you teach on this site, and you dont care. You reject all of our constant warnings and admonishments. And constantly create new reasons why we are not to Judge you or your doctrine.

We are all following the Word of God concerning Judging False Teachers, what we are doing is Biblical regardless of your continuance of rejecting our heart felt pleas to see you Repent and stop teaching these False Doctrines...



If you truly believed in your doctrine and that it IS the Truth then you OUGHT to doubt much of what I do, but at the same time because of your doctrine I could see why you really wouldnt care. Your doctrine is pretty much Do What Thou Wilt...



Then you are not reading the same Bible I am nor are you living in the same World I live in where everyone says they are Christians and Saved but cant even pick up their Bible for years. A World of people who reject every doctrine in the Bible but tell me they are going to Heaven, where they believe outright Heresies and then teach them to others and claim they are Prophets of God or Pastors.

Doctrine indeed matters, so much so that God sent dozens of Prophets, Apostles, Disciples and even His own Son who many died to establish and carry forward these Doctrines. Who gave their lives to defend and to protect them against False Teachers and Heretics so that the Truth wouldnt be destroyed by these liars and wolves in sheep clothing. They put it in their writing to watch mark and avoid those who reject Doctrines and indeed state those who dont adhere to these Doctrines not only cant and wont be used by God but are actually being used by the Devil to subvert believers and potential believers...

It would be wise for you to actually read and heed these warnings, and if you REALLY felt that your Doctrine was the TRUTH you should be marking all of the Christians here who are constantly rebuking you and your Doctrine and calling them what we would be, which is False Teachers and being used of the Devil for telling people such terrible lies about God. You know what the Bible teaches we do concerning False Teachers...



So I dont think you grasped the gist of my post, I was speaking as tho your False Doctrine was correct. If we dont have Free Will then God is literally creating people who He DOESNT want to Repent, who He DOESNT want to accept the Gospel and He IS creating them ONLY for the purpose of being thrown into Hell to suffer for the Sin THEY ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR!!

I really dont understand how anyone can believe we dont have Free Will and NOT believe that God is a horrible monster that is ultimately responsible for Sin!!!

He made us with zero ability NOT to Sin, then holds us Responsible for the Sin forced us to do, and THEN we suffer in this World for all the ills of Sin we all endure, which He made each of us all do and go thru, and THEN He throws us into Hell to be tortured until the Sin He made us do is somehow alleviated.

That my friend is the definition of the most Evil Horrible Monster that could ever exist. Your god is terrible...



Regardless of Eternal Torment or not, to lay all Sin at the foot of God and all Evil at the foot of God is horrendous #1 and #2 goes against everything the Bible teaches about who God is!! The god you are teaching others about now is a monster period...



So He sets up everything where He actually is forcing us to Sin, but makes us think its our fault because He creates an illusion that we have Free Will and then we have the guilt that essentially comes with the Free Will choices we make against our Creator, but in reality Hes just trying to prove to us that He made us Sin and made us feel guilt that we shouldnt and Hes going to throw us into Hell and torture us all to prove what happens when anyone other than Him is in control?

Again man everything you state just makes God out to be a sadistic vengeful monster that lies to us and tortures us for His own power trip.

Thank God He is nothing like that, and He is pretty much the opposite of the monster you created to worship. The real God isnt responsible for my Sins, I am and what I actually deserve is a place in Hell. I deserve to be wiped out and destroyed for my rebellion against the one who Created and Sustains me, but because God loves me, He sent His Son to take the Wrath I deserve and has offered me Grace instead of the punishment I am truly due.

And Jesus Death on the Cross wipes away ALL of my Sins, not some or part but every single Sin I have or will ever commit, therefore for me and ALL who believe in Christ NONE of us will spend one second in Hell. The only burning I will ever have to face is the burning in my bones that makes it impossible for me to stop talking about Christ and what He has done for me!!

Your False Doctrine asserts that Jesus Blood isnt enough and when we uncover the depths of your False Doctrine you are teaching that even Christians who 100% believe and have all Faith in Christ STILL GO TO HELL, to burn off whatever Sin we cant repent of in this life. Trash, straight trash, Jesus has taken 100% of the Wrath I deserve and I nor anyone who believes in Him will ever go near Hell. This world is as bad as it will ever be for us, and this world is as good as it gets for those who reject Him...

I would never worship the god you profess man, and I hope no one else will either...
I'm not going to bother to respond because it's clear you don't even understand what I believe. (See all the above bolded statemtents in your post that I have highlighted.....they are absolutely not what I believe). I have the feeling instead of actually reading and pondering what I am saying you just skim my posts and pull phrases out of context and make all kinds of assumptions. That's fine, not really worried what you think about me.

Your God is the God that is a monster. One that supposedly gave us a free will, but no ability to actually live as he intended, and then tortures those he chooses not to shower his grace on forever with no purpose at all other than creating eternal suffering. (Or do you really think God gave you grace to have faith based on something you did and he didn't give grace to someone else based on something they did or didn't do?)

Free will negates the idea that believers have done nothing to deserve and recieve the ablitity to believe and have faith. It denies that God has anything to do with re-creating us and giving us a new spirt or being born again.
So by you logic, God has made most of humanity incapable of having faith and thus he created them to burn in hell forever. If we truly had free will, God is a monster for not making it more obvious to all of humanity who he is, if he truly loves everyone of us.

God will draw (or drag as the original greek word really means) all men to Christ and they will all see the truth, repent and receive grace by faith. Yeah right, the God I serve is a monster? Okay....
 

Daciple

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Joined
Apr 25, 2017
Messages
1,157
God predicts the future prophetically, of course, but the question is how he knows. I say that God controls events by interracting with the universe carefully and subtly to guide human actions toward the outcome he has pre planned. The outcomes he speaks of as certain because he ensures they occur, not because they happened ahead of us in "time".

The idea of a "future" is the issue. There is no such thing as a future in any sense of reality. God speaks of the future AS THOUGH it were a reality out of the confidence he will accomplish his goals.

You may quote all the scripture you like of God predicting the future, none of it demonstrates that the future is a real thing in reality, and none of it shows God going ahead or back in time, either by traveling there are looking there.
There is a parade going down the street, and if we are too look down on it and only be 10 feet up in the air above it, we can only see a very small part of the parade. At 20 feet we see a bit more, at 30 feet even more, the higher we are above the parade the more we can see at once.

Time is like this parade and us being on the street only see it flowing past us and the tiny bit we can see or experience at any given moment. As tho we are on the street when the band is walking by, we cant see all that came before the band nor anything behind the band, we are only able to see the band, until they pass and the next part of the parade streams by.

God however is fully above the parade to a point where He can see the beginning of the parade, the middle of the parade and the end of the parade at the same time. God is outside of time, the creator of time and therefore can see past present and future all at once. Not only is God able to see past present and future all at once, He can determine every event and every path that would and does take place all at once.

Not only does He see the parade and the fullness of the path it went, He can see every single possible path that the parade could have taken and He is able to fully comprehend this all at once, because He is God.

This is called Middle Knowledge and is fully supported in the Bible.

I agree that God determines the ends, I believe He has already decided the ends but I believe He is able to accomplish these ends WITHIN the realm He has created in purposefully giving man Free Will. This is a much more complete and more powerful God than the god of what is essentially Calvinism, which is a God that creates puppets to do exactly what He determines and we have no ability to accept or reject anything.

It is also a much more complete and powerful God than you are suggesting which seems to me isnt actually Omnipotent as tho God doesnt know what the Future holds at all, that He is simply at the will of time itself and has no ability to know what is ahead. In my view both of these Gods are rather weak and the description given dont do justice to God and His power, knowledge and ability.

And I guess there is no need to stick to the Bible about this, the conversation now I suppose is just our own conjectures, even tho I believe the Bible tells us truly how God perceives these things...
 

elsbet

Superstar
Joined
Jun 4, 2017
Messages
5,122
I found it interesting going round the theme parks in Orlando - every now and then there would be someone wearing a T-Shirt with a Bible verse on or an overtly Christian message. I would listen to the radio and there would be Christian channels with praise music playing. Perhaps because I felt an alien to the culture, it made me think more.

Back in England there has been a drive for "British Values" in society and especially schools. Tolerance, celebrating diversity, pluralism etc etc are the lessons the kids are getting. In short the intellectual left and the spiritually apostate or liberal have control of the media and the education system.

In some ways I liked the US better, in others the way you are forced to go against the flow in the UK in order to stand for Jesus is not a bad thing, especially as it reminds you to put on your spiritual armour.
It may interest you to know that the 'gospel' stations are often housed under the same roof as the Rock / Top 40 stations. I used to work for one of the largest media conglomerates in the US (radio division), and the ad sales for the Christian station were managed by the same person who oversaw the ad sales for the R&B and (I think) a country music station. It's all about advertising... but the fact that it does sell is meaningful, I agree. I'm guessing it wouldn't do so well in the UK?
 
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