Does God Place Conditions on His Gift of Salvation?

Red Sky at Morning

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It doesn’t cancel out the others but expands upon them. Does it say Christians will fall away..check! Does it say that when they do they can’t be renewed again...check! What’s so hard to figure out?
That interpretation unavoidably argues with the standards the Lord expects us to apply to one another in Luke 17...

3Take heed to yourselves. If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him. 4And if he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times in a day returns to you, saying, ‘I repent,’ you shall forgive him.

Consider this:-

Does God expect us to apply a higher standard of forgiveness and compassion towards one another than the one He is prepared to extend towards us?
 






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phipps

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That interpretation unavoidably argues with the standards the Lord expects us to apply to one another in Luke 17...

3Take heed to yourselves. If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him. 4And if he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times in a day returns to you, saying, ‘I repent,’ you shall forgive him.

Consider this:-

Does God expect us to apply a higher standard of forgiveness and compassion towards one another than the one He is prepared to extend towards us?
My point exactly. God told us to forgive each other seventy times seven times. He wouldn't ask us to do something He does not do. He probably forgives us more than that.
 






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That interpretation unavoidably argues with the standards the Lord expects us to apply to one another in Luke 17...

3Take heed to yourselves. If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him. 4And if he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times in a day returns to you, saying, ‘I repent,’ you shall forgive him.

Consider this:-

Does God expect us to apply a higher standard of forgiveness and compassion towards one another than the one He is prepared to extend towards us?
It says and IF he repents, forgive him. That is the condition.

Again, this shows how that forgiveness of sins depends on the requirement of repentance being met:

Matthew 11:20 Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not:

Matthew 12:41 The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment against this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and, behold, a greater than Jonah [is] here.

& Matthew 21:25-32

If the requirement of repentance is not met, then it says there is no forgiveness of sins.

Luke 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
 






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Lisa

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Proverbs 24:16, "For a righteous man may fall seven times And rise again, But the wicked shall fall by calamity."
And?
Hebrews‬ ‭6:4-6‬ ‭
For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.​
‭‭
 






Pan

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And?
Hebrews‬ ‭6:4-6‬ ‭
For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.​
‭‭
Lisa believes that God only saves Jewish Paedophiles and all other races that God created were a mistake.

It's interesting that Lisa also likes to refer to God as "Yahweh"

Hmmmm

yahweh.JPG
 






Lisa

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That interpretation unavoidably argues with the standards the Lord expects us to apply to one another in Luke 17...

3Take heed to yourselves. If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him. 4And if he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times in a day returns to you, saying, ‘I repent,’ you shall forgive him.

Consider this:-

Does God expect us to apply a higher standard of forgiveness and compassion towards one another than the one He is prepared to extend towards us?
Did God warn Adam and Eve what would happen if they ate the fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil? He warns us too, that you can fall away...perhaps the answer is to heed the warning not pretend there is none?
 






Pan

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Did God warn Adam and Eve what would happen if they ate the fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil? He warns us too, that you can fall away...perhaps the answer is to heed the warning not pretend there is none?
You're on the side of the serpent, so I can imagine you typing this gleefully. You enjoy the fact that Humanity has fallen to the Synagogue of Satan.
 






Red Sky at Morning

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Did God warn Adam and Eve what would happen if they ate the fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil? He warns us too, that you can fall away...perhaps the answer is to heed the warning not pretend there is none?
I think you are mixing examples there @Lisa

Something happened to the spirits of Adam and Eve when they sinned - they died and were replaced by the same sin nature they passed on to their offspring. Still, they were not forever cut off as they clearly understood that sacrifices should be made to God (and told their children, as illustrated by Cain and Abel) pointing towards the promised Salvation that was to come in the “Protoevangelium

An understanding of the tripartite nature of Man sheds some light on what went on back then:-


The example with Adam and Eve is not the same thing as a Christian who falls and is restored. Paul, the “Pharisee of Pharisees” doesn’t judge the fallen Corinthian believer according to that standard, but urges the church to restore him.

Why would he urge for the restoration of s hopeless case?
 






phipps

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And?
Hebrews‬ ‭6:4-6‬ ‭
For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.​
‭‭
This is my last response to you on this topic because you insist on quoting the same scripture over and over while rejecting all other scripture that gives us more information on this subject. Your ears are closed to the truth on this topic. You are completely wrong about it too.

You have also grossly misunderstood God. According to you, God is not as loving, long suffering, patient, merciful, forgiving etc as the Bible tells us He is. Those verses you keep quoting over and over are talking about full blown apostasy. That happens when a person has persistently sinned, persistently rejected the pleadings of the Holy Spirit, refused God's grace to work in their lives despite of all the knowledge and experience they have of God's truth. The person has become deaf to the Holy Spirit and therefore sinned against It. That is when a person can't be renewed or restored again. It is not because God's love and patience have run out (they never run out), it is because a person exercises their free will not to have anything to do with God over a period of time. This is not something that happens the first time someone stops believing. God does not give up on us that easily.

Falling away or apostasy is a process. Just like salvation is a process that someone can choose to stop, so can falling away/apostasy be stopped. Someone can stop falling away, hear and stop rejecting the Holy Spirit, repent and be forgiven, or they could proceed in pulling away from God until they reach the point of no return. We have free will either way in salvation and falling away but there are consequences in both choices which the Bible clearly tells us about including in Hebrews‬ ‭6:4-6‬. We have biblical examples as I've shown you, to learn lessons from.

Ezekiel 18:21, 23, 31, “But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die. Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?” says the Lord God, “and not that he should turn from his ways and live? Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die, O house of Israel?"
 






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Lisa

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I think you are mixing examples there @Lisa

Something happened to the spirits of Adam and Eve when they sinned - they died and were replaced by the same sin nature they passed on to their offspring. Still, they were not forever cut off as they clearly understood that sacrifices should be made to God (and told their children, as illustrated by Cain and Abel) pointing towards the promised Salvation that was to come in the “Protoevangelium

An understanding of the tripartite nature of Man sheds some light on what went on back then:-


The example with Adam and Eve is not the same thing as a Christian who falls and is restored. Paul, the “Pharisee of Pharisees” doesn’t judge the fallen Corinthian believer according to that standard, but urges the church to restore him.

Why would he urge for the restoration of s hopeless case?
Did they understand sacrifices should be made to God? That is something I’m unsure of. The last thing they did was the blame game.

I already know about the sin nature, thank you.

The example of Adam and Eve is this, God warned them not to eat the fruit and told them what would happen if they did. God warns us that people will fall away from the faith and warns us what will happen if we do. Which is why I brought it up. Maybe we need to heed the warning instead of pretending there isn’t one?

Because there is a verse that totally talks about what happens when someone falls away from the faith..I don’t think it should be ignored...tell me how that verse doesn’t say what it does.
Hebrews‬ ‭6:4-6‬ ‭NASB‬‬
For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.​
‭‭
Since your allergic to modernity..
Hebrews‬ ‭6:4-6‬ ‭KJV‬‬
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.​

What do you do with this verse? Ignore it, explain it away somehow? What do you do?
 






Lisa

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This is my last response to you on this topic because you insist on quoting the same scripture over and over while rejecting all other scripture that gives us more information on this subject. Your ears are closed to the truth on this topic. You are completely wrong about it too.

You have also grossly misunderstood God. According to you, God is not as loving, long suffering, patient, merciful, forgiving etc as the Bible tells us He is. Those verses you keep quoting over and over are talking about full blown apostasy. That happens when a person has persistently sinned, persistently rejected the pleadings of the Holy Spirit, refused God's grace to work in their lives despite of all the knowledge and experience they have of God's truth. The person has become deaf to the Holy Spirit and therefore sinned against It. That is when a person can't be renewed or restored again. It is not because God's love and patience have run out (they never run out), it is because a person exercises their free will not to have anything to do with God over a period of time. This is not something that happens the first time someone stops believing. God does not give up on us that easily.

Falling away or apostasy is a process. Just like salvation is a process that someone can choose to stop, so can falling away/apostasy be stopped. Someone can stop falling away, hear and stop rejecting the Holy Spirit, repent and be forgiven, or they could proceed in pulling away from God until they reach the point of no return. We have free will either way in salvation and falling away but there are consequences in both choices which the Bible clearly tells us about including in Hebrews‬ ‭6:4-6‬. We have biblical examples as I've shown you, to learn lessons from.

Ezekiel 18:21, 23, 31, “But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die. Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?” says the Lord God, “and not that he should turn from his ways and live? Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die, O house of Israel?"
I thought you said if someone falls away they can be renewed again? So I keep quoting the scripture that says they can’t.

Ya I think it’s a process too..but really once you have those itchy ears or are deceived...don’t you choose it like Eve chose to believe the lie?
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭4:1‬ ‭
But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons.​

And if you choose it..can you stop it then? Let’s tak Todd for example..he set out to find the truth in scripture when he didn’t like the truth of grace. Was he already lost at that point and on the road of no return then?
 






Red Sky at Morning

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Did they understand sacrifices should be made to God? That is something I’m unsure of. The last thing they did was the blame game.

I already know about the sin nature, thank you.

The example of Adam and Eve is this, God warned them not to eat the fruit and told them what would happen if they did. God warns us that people will fall away from the faith and warns us what will happen if we do. Which is why I brought it up. Maybe we need to heed the warning instead of pretending there isn’t one?

Because there is a verse that totally talks about what happens when someone falls away from the faith..I don’t think it should be ignored...tell me how that verse doesn’t say what it does.
Hebrews‬ ‭6:4-6‬ ‭NASB‬‬
For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.​
‭‭
Since your allergic to modernity..
Hebrews‬ ‭6:4-6‬ ‭KJV‬‬
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.​

What do you do with this verse? Ignore it, explain it away somehow? What do you do?
I think true meaning if this verse may lie in the law of non-contradiction and in the context of the people the letter was written to.

As far as non-contradiction, everyone who has fell away and then restored to relationship argues with a face value interpretation of the verses from Hebrews.

What then, does the Bible contradict itself - I don’t think so...

I won’t try to push my interpretation on you, but ...

The historic context is Kadesh Barnea (where the Jews failed to enter the promised land through unbelief and failed to inherit the promise)

The immediate context is the Hebrews - i.e. Jews who would have become Christians and in doing so, turned away from sacrificing for their sins in the Temple. The would faced opposition from the religious establishment and pressure to return to the sacrificial system.

If they did do a “Kadesh Barnea” and shrink back from the promise, they would essentially “fall away” from the gospel, and in sacrificing an animal instead, would be publicly declaring that the blood of Jesus was an insufficient sacrifice for them and put Him to an open shame.

This perspective is explored more fully here.
 






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Lisa

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I think true meaning if this verse may lie in the law of non-contradiction and in the context of the people the letter was written to.

As far as non-contradiction, everyone who has fell away and then restored to relationship argues with a face value interpretation of the verses from Hebrews.

What then, does the Bible contradict itself - I don’t think so...

I won’t try to push my interpretation on you, but ...

The historic context is Kadesh Barnea (where the Jews failed to enter the promised land through unbelief and failed to inherit the promise)

The immediate context is the Hebrews - i.e. Jews who would have become Christians and in doing so, turned away from sacrificing for their sins in the Temple. The would faced opposition from the religious establishment and pressure to return to the sacrificial system.

If they did do a “Kadesh Barnea” and shrink back from the promise, they would essentially “fall away” from the gospel, and in sacrificing an animal instead, would be publicly declaring that the blood of Jesus was an insufficient sacrifice for them and put Him to an open shame.

This perspective is explored more fully here.
Sure that’s one way to fall away..other are doctrines of demons and by deception which is why it’s good to be a Berean.

Falling away....The Bible tells us falling away is a possibility for those in the faith...Jesus, Peter, Paul and the writer of Hebrews knew of it.

Matthew 24:10
At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another.

Matthew 26:33
But Peter said to Him, "Even though all may fall away because of You, I will never fall away."


1 Timothy 4:1
But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons.

2 Peter 2:20-21‬ ‭
For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them.

2 Peter 3:14-18‬ ‭
Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless, and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction. You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of unprincipled men and fall from your own steadfastness, but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory, both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.

Hebrews 2:1‬-3
For this reason we must pay much closer attention to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away from it. “For if the word spoken through angels proved unalterable, and every transgression and disobedience received a just penalty, how will we escape if we neglect so great a salvation?

Hebrews 3:12-14
Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God. But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called "Today," so that none of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end.


2 Timothy 4:3-4
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths.

‭‭Galatians 5:2-9
Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you. And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law. You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love. You were running well; who hindered you from obeying the truth? This persuasion did not come from Him who calls you. A little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough.

Colossians 2:8‬ ‭
See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ.

‭‭
I don’t see a lot of contradiction in the Bible about falling away but a lot of warnings really..and I would argue that the people who were brought back to faith..hadn’t fallen away in the first place because then they couldn’t come back.
 






phipps

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Lisa

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How does the plan of salvation provide for the spiritual security of the Christian?

1. The priestly ministry of Christ
Hebrews 4:14-16; 7:25; Romans 8:34.

2. The righteousness of Christ.
a. Imputed
Romans 3:21-24; 4:11.
b. ImpartedGalatians 2:20; Colossians 1:27.

3. The ministry of the Holy SpiritRomans 8:1, 5, 9-11, 13-14, 26-27.

4. The armor of GodEphesians 6:10-18.

5. The faithfulness, forbearance, long-suffering, and goodness of GodHebrews 10: 23; Romans 2:4.
Don’t forget..
Matthew‬ ‭24:13‬ ‭
But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.​
‭‭
 






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