Does Democracy Work?

[linderbak]

View attachment 1541

Since it has become a memefest here, I'll play along and post something too. Replace some of those rocks and crocodiles with other blacks

 

[JoChris]

This is the state of our democracy in Australia.

It's both sides of the political fence too. Used car salesmen are more trusted than the current lot.

 

[mecca]

Since it has become a memefest here, I'll play along and post something too. Replace some of those rocks and crocodiles with other blacks

That's seriously your reply?

 

[linderbak]

That's seriously your reply?

Half-seriously. The conversation went off the rails from the get-go with the meme posts. Might as well have some fun then, though there's a lot of truth in that sentence.

 

[Hubert]

Democracy is the worst form of government...except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.

-Churchill

 

[KoncreteMind]

Since it has become a memefest here, I'll play along and post something too. Replace some of those rocks and crocodiles with other blacks

I guess changing the subject is easier than addressing all the gov'ts the west has toppled

 

[rainerann]

Actually thats a good point that I didnt even think about. Democracy works moreso on a local level than with the big government we have today. I automatically thought about democracy on a national level



What do we have to show it works though on a national level though? We have the ability to vote that we agree on but is democracy that simple? I mean if I gave you the opportunity to vote between Hitler and Kim Jong Un, is that really a "democracy" since I provided you with both options? I see America like this since the presidents are seemingly mostly related. I mean what are the chances that in a free democracy, in one race, both presidents came from the same fraternity at or around the same time(Kerry vs Bush)?

Idk about the Lusitania, but with Pearl Harbor and 9/11 they had advance notice in both situations. Yet of course they let it happen, to get the pretense they needed to go to war which shows the amount of control that is at play imo. Locally in small amounts, democracy works. But on a national level, I cant see how it has worked in America or anywhere really. It seems we vote, and they do what they want anyways. I'd say moreso than a vote, politicians support the people who lobby them into office.

On a national level, I don't think our vote has done much good since JFK was elected president. However, I don't think this demonstrates that a democratic process is not beneficial to a nation. It just means that we need to rid of most of the Federal government and the office of the president.

I think a lot of our problems would actually be removed if we removed the position of president that is creating the conflict in this discussion. Clearly, there is an attempt to rig the election where the president is concerned and there is an effort to convert the office of president into an electoral monarchy.

If we removed this office, we would theoretically remove most of the present problems with the democratic process.

I think if America ever falls, it will be because it got too big and it needed to return to smaller states and local governments. However, the subject of a democratic process is benign to this discussion. It has no opinion on the subject. It is basically just a vote. So does democracy work? Yes, even if there are clearly efforts to centralize power int he US at this present time that is difficult to undo with the voting process.

Just because it is difficult to see how the vote can fix the process, doesn't mean that the vote is the problem. It just is just one piece of the puzzle and it is a good piece.

There is also a lot of evidence that a vote is beneficial to a society within the history of America. It is a shame that so many people confuse the issues surrounding the corruption of our presidential office to mean that there is something wrong with giving a nation the right to vote on their own laws and representatives.

It would seem that it should be easier to tell the difference, but it is one of the problems I run into every election, and I don't think Americans appreciate this function. Although, I think that the issues with electing the president every four years are creating their cynicism of a process that actually distributes power in a smaller setting.

Every four years, it is like most people seem to forget that there is anything else we are voting on when we are voting on the president. It just becomes a circus. So I think it would solve most of our problems to get rid of the office of president, but it would be a severe change.

Whenever there is the opportunity for power the way the US has developed the opportunity for power within the Federal government.
The people who have this power will not let this go in the same way that a king will not give up his place as monarch.

It more than likely will have to fall in order for the people to regain power that is being hoarded within the Federal government at the moment. I realize this as an American. This is why it is so important to have an accurate understanding of the concept of democracy because if by tomorrow, there is no America I grew up with, I don't want to be left stranded without any idea of how to rebuild a community.

Voting is a good process. It distributes power so that it is not central to religious or political leaders. It is something I would want to include if I were stranded on a desert island and still waiting for the Lord's return.

 

[rainerann]

I should also add that a democratic process only works when the people are educated on what they are voting on and why.

When I was a leader of a group in the church, I found that a democratic process was actually a terrible idea when the group was new and no one knew what to expect from our study.

One of my groups was with the same people through the whole course. A different group was more of an open house group with new people every week.

I found a democratic process worked well with the group that was with the same people throughout the course when they had been participating for at least 3 months in the group. Although, a democratic process never worked with the group that had new people in it every week. They would just sit there looking confused and insecure about raising their hand for any decision.

So a vote requires some prerequisite education. So it is not unusual to see how the education system is also being undermined in our country as well. An educated public is able to exercise their right to vote in a much more effective way than an uneducated public, and this is only used as a method of distributing power so that it will not be centralized.

It is part of an overall plan to distribute power within three branches of government so that a judge can't make a law and a congressman can't judge the people. We just need to get rid of the president. We don't need the executive branch and centralizing power is the problem we have in the US, not the democratic process.

 

[KoncreteMind]

On a national level, I don't think our vote has done much good since JFK was elected president. However, I don't think this demonstrates that a democratic process is not beneficial to a nation. It just means that we need to rid of most of the Federal government and the office of the president.

I think a lot of our problems would actually be removed if we removed the position of president that is creating the conflict in this discussion. Clearly, there is an attempt to rig the election where the president is concerned and there is an effort to convert the office of president into an electoral monarchy.

If we removed this office, we would theoretically remove most of the present problems with the democratic process.

I think if America ever falls, it will be because it got too big and it needed to return to smaller states and local governments. However, the subject of a democratic process is benign to this discussion. It has no opinion on the subject. It is basically just a vote. So does democracy work? Yes, even if there are clearly efforts to centralize power int he US at this present time that is difficult to undo with the voting process.

Just because it is difficult to see how the vote can fix the process, doesn't mean that the vote is the problem. It just is just one piece of the puzzle and it is a good piece.

There is also a lot of evidence that a vote is beneficial to a society within the history of America. It is a shame that so many people confuse the issues surrounding the corruption of our presidential office to mean that there is something wrong with giving a nation the right to vote on their own laws and representatives.

It would seem that it should be easier to tell the difference, but it is one of the problems I run into every election, and I don't think Americans appreciate this function. Although, I think that the issues with electing the president every four years are creating their cynicism of a process that actually distributes power in a smaller setting.

Every four years, it is like most people seem to forget that there is anything else we are voting on when we are voting on the president. It just becomes a circus. So I think it would solve most of our problems to get rid of the office of president, but it would be a severe change.

Whenever there is the opportunity for power the way the US has developed the opportunity for power within the Federal government.
The people who have this power will not let this go in the same way that a king will not give up his place as monarch.

It more than likely will have to fall in order for the people to regain power that is being hoarded within the Federal government at the moment. I realize this as an American. This is why it is so important to have an accurate understanding of the concept of democracy because if by tomorrow, there is no America I grew up with, I don't want to be left stranded without any idea of how to rebuild a community.

Voting is a good process. It distributes power so that it is not central to religious or political leaders. It is something I would want to include if I were stranded on a desert island and still waiting for the Lord's return.

For me, I took the question as meaning country wise, does democracy work. And if in America power has been centralized, then it hasnt worked here at least. Of course we can always agree to disagree..

 

[rainerann]

For me, I took the question as meaning country wise, does democracy work. And if in America power has been centralized, then it hasnt worked here at least. Of course we can always agree to disagree..

It is interesting that so many people oppose the idea of a voting process because there remains the presence of greed and corruption when no one really has a better system to suggest.

People are still trying to immigrate to the US in larger numbers than to any other country.

People have tried to immigrate to the US in larger numbers than any country in the history of the world. America is the place most people want to be.

I would say this means democracy is the most successful form of government when we still hav to live in a world with greed and corruption.

Either way, it is just a vote, and removing the vote is what's making the world a darker place.

Again, the end we speculate about around here, do you really think TPTB are going to include a vote in the next government?

Probably not. What does that say? Is the vote really the problem; or would it actually be the solution if you could get people to stop complaining about other nonsense for long enough to realize that.

We should all want to keep the vote and improve in our capacity to use it, but people won't.

They will complain about the US until the UN can create a following that will agree that consolidating the nations is the better way to go, or something along those lines.

There are people out there who would take everything away from regular people if they could. Having a vote creates a barrier from accomplishing this. It is not just that the US doesn't experience things that are happening in other countries. It is that many of those things can't happen here because we have a better form of government that some of the other countries.

We are like the brick house in the story of the three little pigs that is hard for the wolf to blow down.

So when everyone's posting memes about things happening in other countries, maybe you should think about how most of these things can't happen in our country because our process of government is stronger. That doesn't mean it will last forever because of this, but it is stronger nevertheless.

TPTB aren't trying to build a new world order based on the government system in Pakistan.

It really does make me feel like people shouldn't come here if their just going to complain about allowing people to vote, and if you don't like it in the west, you should leave. Everyone wants to complain.

If your not helping, your part of the problem.

 

[Aero]

The U.S is a brick house? Sorry I don't think that's accurate enough. Rainerann is trying to paint a very rosy picture, but the truth just sounds better. It was a brick house, than they sold it to foreign entities. Than those entities gutted the Brick House. And all that's left now is that rosy picture that used to be.

And there wont be a vote when the next government takes over. That's the whole point of why democracy has led us astray. The way they have consolidated power in the banking industry tells us everything. Someone will be there to pick up the house of cards when it collapses. And none of us are going to have the means to do so.

We don't have the means because of democracy. Because we are actually voting for liars and demons. What I'm saying is. It's so bad under the surface that even the honest ones aren't honest. Like a lot of people within the government power structure don't even know how bad it all really is either. That's how they keep up this illusion that America is so great. The United States of America is the demon of the world.

 

[manama]

I should also add that a democratic process only works when the people are educated on what they are voting on and why.

This ^

 

[rainerann]

The U.S is a brick house? Sorry I don't think that's accurate enough. Rainerann is trying to paint a very rosy picture, but the truth just sounds better. It was a brick house, than they sold it to foreign entities. Than those entities gutted the Brick House. And all that's left now is that rosy picture that used to be.

And there wont be a vote when the next government takes over. That's the whole point of why democracy has led us astray. The way they have consolidated power in the banking industry tells us everything. Someone will be there to pick up the house of cards when it collapses. And none of us are going to have the means to do so.

We don't have the means because of democracy. Because we are actually voting for liars and demons. What I'm saying is. It's so bad under the surface that even the honest ones aren't honest. Like a lot of people within the government power structure don't even know how bad it all really is either. That's how they keep up this illusion that America is so great. The United States of America is the demon of the world.

You mean the Ocean's 11 endeavors that are happening because of all the laws and protections we have that prevent doing many of the things we discuss around here openly.

That is why I refer to it as a brick house. If this were easy to accomplish, there wouldn't be half as many conspiracy theories about the things that are happening in the US.

The vote that we have here is part of that history. It could be part of the solution if it weren't for the fact that people with lots of money think they can pay to change the education system and bribe the presidential candidates in order to make people feel cynical about voting.

So you are American, yes? Are you even registered to vote, and have you ever voted in any election where you could see it made a difference as far as changing laws within your own state?

Centralizing power is the problem. Voting is the solution. At least 50% of any US ballot will not be about voting for anyone. It will be about voting on different propositions that are presented by your local and state government.

I am beginning to think the people I am discussing this with have never actually seen a US ballot the way they are discussing this topic.

In my state, we actually do vote on fiscal issues too. All the more reason to get rid of the Federal government where we lose most of our voting power.

A government without a vote when people are prone to corruption, which no country in the world is immune to, is more vulnerable to this corruption than a country that includes a voting process. Period.

 

[rainerann]

Here is a sample of what you would actually see on a US ballot. The picture can't show that the ballot is approximately 8 x 20 and will cover the front and back.

This looks like a snapshot showing how the voting process affects the local schools, but as you can see, we have a say in some pretty major decisions as voters. Voting is a strength, not a weakness.

For the propositions that we vote on, there is a usually some way to find out additional information about the pros and cons of voting for or against a proposition.

Sometimes the wording on the ballot is difficult to understand completely, so it is important to get additional information.

I still read up on all the propositions that I am able to vote for, and I will continue to do this for the rest of my life, or for as long as I am able to.

 

[Aero]

Lol yes I've voted in 2 presidential elections. And I haven't seen any difference.

Your shining example is being able to vote for or against more taxes? You mean the taxes they constantly piss away. Yes give them more tax money. They will just ask for more the next election cycle. You are voting as a technicality, not to have any sort of control.

The local governments can do whatever they want with that money. And it mostly goes to to paying their inflated salaries. Which is only going to get worse. Once you are in power as an democratically elected official, you can do whatever the hell you want. The only thing anyone can do is sue you or vote you out. But until that time, you are practically above reproach.

 

[KoncreteMind]

It is interesting that so many people oppose the idea of a voting process because there remains the presence of greed and corruption when no one really has a better system to suggest.

People are still trying to immigrate to the US in larger numbers than to any other country.

People have tried to immigrate to the US in larger numbers than any country in the history of the world. America is the place most people want to be.

I would say this means democracy is the most successful form of government when we still hav to live in a world with greed and corruption.

Either way, it is just a vote, and removing the vote is what's making the world a darker place.

Again, the end we speculate about around here, do you really think TPTB are going to include a vote in the next government?

Probably not. What does that say? Is the vote really the problem; or would it actually be the solution if you could get people to stop complaining about other nonsense for long enough to realize that.

We should all want to keep the vote and improve in our capacity to use it, but people won't.

They will complain about the US until the UN can create a following that will agree that consolidating the nations is the better way to go, or something along those lines.

There are people out there who would take everything away from regular people if they could. Having a vote creates a barrier from accomplishing this. It is not just that the US doesn't experience things that are happening in other countries. It is that many of those things can't happen here because we have a better form of government that some of the other countries.

We are like the brick house in the story of the three little pigs that is hard for the wolf to blow down.

So when everyone's posting memes about things happening in other countries, maybe you should think about how most of these things can't happen in our country because our process of government is stronger. That doesn't mean it will last forever because of this, but it is stronger nevertheless.

TPTB aren't trying to build a new world order based on the government system in Pakistan.

It really does make me feel like people shouldn't come here if their just going to complain about allowing people to vote, and if you don't like it in the west, you should leave. Everyone wants to complain.

If your not helping, your part of the problem.

Just because people dont see voting working on a national level, doesnt mean people oppose the process of voting itself. Its just not working since power has become centralized with the bankers.The reason people come to America is because of the economic opportunity it offers and the fact that they can pretty much be whatever they want to be (gay, transgender, interracial marriage etc..) that in other countries, dont fly. They're not, for the most part, coming because they can vote. And a big reason America has as much economic opportunity it does is because of its presence in foreign soils over history.

I cant speak for anyone else, but for me, just because I think that democracy hasnt worked in America, doesnt mean that Im suggesting we remove the vote. It doesnt mean I oppose the process of voting itself. It doesnt mean I think that the vote itself is causing the problems we see. But if power has become consolidated, then theres no way to point out how its worked. Nationally that is. Thats all Im getting at. With all that being said, I have no interest in "helping" the west at all because of its foreign policies. And it would have collapsed already if the banks werent artificially propping it up. That doesnt mean I "should leave" because allegedly this is a "free democracy" where we can voice our opinions whether they are for or against something. You cant have it both ways...

 

[rainerann]

Lol yes I've voted in 2 presidential elections. And I haven't seen any difference.

Your shining example is being able to vote for or against more taxes? You mean the taxes they constantly piss away. Yes give them more tax money. They will just ask for more the next election cycle. You are voting as a technicality, not to have any sort of control.

The local governments can do whatever they want with that money. And it mostly goes to to paying their inflated salaries. Which is only going to get worse. Once you are in power as an democratically elected official, you can do whatever the hell you want. The only thing anyone can do is sue you or vote you out. But until that time, you are practically above reproach.

That is why I vote no on most of those and have often experienced relief when they don't pass. The beauty of democracy.

This is in contrast to ONE person being able to control all of the decisions that are made regarding your governement. If you give someone that much power in the world that we live in with the ability to communicate to all four corners of the world, it will create an apocolypse very quickly.

This is the intention of taking over the west, removing the vote, increasing communication so that power will increasingly become centralized on a global setting and no one will have a say in any law that is created.

Just something to think about while people continue to bash democracy.

 

[Etagloc]

Oh no! Democracy! Ahhhhh!!!!

goodbye, civilization! you were an interesting experiment while you lasted!

 

[DesertRose]

There have been freedoms given and taken throughout history by different systems. In fact the same system can work at one time for an individual and his collective but not work in a different epoch. Progress within systems can be cyclical with people needing to relearn the same lessons about checking the impulses of excesss in any field whilst still promoting our autonomy.
The word for person in Arabic is insaan and it comes from the root word 'forgetfulness' nisyaan.

 

[Etagloc]

There be four things which are little upon the earth, but they are exceedingly wise:

The ants are a people not strong, yet they prepare their meat in the summer;

The conies are but a feeble folk, yet make they their houses in the rocks;

The locusts have no king, yet go they forth all of them by bands;

-Proverbs 30:24-27