Do you believe secular Jewish state of Israel is prophesied in the Bible?

Lisa

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So looking at the text here:

This 'forever' must only be for a certain period of time since the servant will eventually die and cease to serve his master. So here we have an 'Olam' or 'forever' in scripture which is not eternal, but the forever refers to a certain period of time, in this case the entirety of the mans life.


My Bible says permanently, which I took to mean however long that person was alive.

Definition of permanent:
lasting or intended to last or remain unchanged indefinitely.

So here you are taking the word 'permanent' to mean only a finite length of time. This is correct, but in being so surely points to the danger of a plain reading of the English text to back up your argument regarding the everlasting covenant in Genesis 17.
Because no one is forever on the earth, they only have a certain life span right? So then then it can’t be forever for them, you are correct...
God however is forever, He wasn’t created, He just is and He is forever, He can make a forever promise and keep it. However, humans can’t, which is why the covenant was with Abraham and his descendants. Abraham died, when that happened his heir, Isaac took over the covenant then Jacob..etc.
This covenant however did not include all of Abraham’s descendants and Ishmael was purposefully left out of it by God. So that tells you a story right there.
 
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Where do you think the American Jews are trying to go? Mexico? Don’t many of them live on the east coast? Why build a wall in Mexico to keep them in? That doesn’t make a lot of sense actually.
Nope. I already said that the people you call Jews aren’t. Doesn’t matter where they are. The real Israelites are the ones your country enslaved/oppressed for the last 400 years. The wall is to keep them in just as decades ago, Eisenhower created COINTELPRO to “stop the rise of the black messiah” from rising amongst them. What they went thru in America matches the curses in Deuteronomy way more than anything the Jews went thru during WW2 or after.

Paul who was Jewish
I said the OT doesn’t leave room for Israel struggling before and after entering the land. By pointing me to Paul and not to the OT,I’m guessing your in agreement?

Yea you said this already. Maybe we’d move the convo further if you’d address Moses saying that they’d be gathered back WHEN they obeyed. If it’s not WHEN they obey like Moses wrote, then what did he mean in Deuteronomy 30:1-7?

I never said those verses don’t matter but they do not change or affect what Deuteronomy 30:1-7 says

Because those verses talk about the end times
So does Deuteronomy 30:1-7.

All that doesn’t happen in America but in the Middle East, in Israel, Israel is in the right place at the right time.
None of what you said matters from the perspective of the OT. Pretty simple. I’ll scatter you then in the end times bring you back when you obey again. That “when” part throws a wrench in everything you’re saying which is probably why you won’t address it.
 

Lisa

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Nope. I already said that the people you call Jews aren’t. Doesn’t matter where they are. The real Israelites are the ones your country enslaved/oppressed for the last 400 years. The wall is to keep them in just as decades ago, Eisenhower created COINTELPRO to “stop the rise of the black messiah” from rising amongst them. What they went thru in America matches the curses in Deuteronomy way more than anything the Jews went thru during WW2 or after.
So, America is trying to keep in the black folk and they are wanting to run to Mexico? That’s what the wall is for, to stop black folk from fleeing to Mexico? What are they gonna do in Mexico? You know, you make no sense at all....

I said the OT doesn’t leave room for Israel struggling before and after entering the land. By pointing me to Paul and not to the OT,I’m guessing your in agreement?
I just meant that Paul was Jewish and an apostle, He would know if God abandoned His people or not, don’t ya think?

Yea you said this already. Maybe we’d move the convo further if you’d address Moses saying that they’d be gathered back WHEN they obeyed. If it’s not WHEN they obey like Moses wrote, then what did he mean in Deuteronomy 30:1-7?

I never said those verses don’t matter but they do not change or affect what Deuteronomy 30:1-7 says
Perhaps that is the reason the Jews are wanting to rebuild the temple, to come to God again heart and soul in the only way they know how? Since they have rejected Jesus, that is the only path open to them for return...
As for that verse, Israel was banished a few times and returned to their land, Nehemiah comes to mind ..and that wasn’t America was it? Which makes what you’re saying foolish.

Anyway, they obviously aren’t obedient to God right now, but He has regathered them anyway and Ezekiel 36 talks about that and why.
 
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Because no one is forever on the earth, they only have a certain life span right? So then then it can’t be forever for them, you are correct...
God however is forever, He wasn’t created, He just is and He is forever, He can make a forever promise and keep it. However, humans can’t, which is why the covenant was with Abraham and his descendants. Abraham died, when that happened his heir, Isaac took over the covenant then Jacob..etc.
This covenant however did not include all of Abraham’s descendants and Ishmael was purposefully left out of it by God. So that tells you a story right there.
So again, what does that mean that the majority of Jews are Ashkenazi and have no racial heritage in Israel, nor with "Abraham". They are European.
Furthermore, what does it mean that the Palestinians and Syrians ARE racially related to the ancient Semites you are referring to?
 

Lisa

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So again, what does that mean that the majority of Jews are Ashkenazi and have no racial heritage in Israel, nor with "Abraham". They are European.
Furthermore, what does it mean that the Palestinians and Syrians ARE racially related to the ancient Semites you are referring to?
That’s if all that is actually true, I don’t think it is, just another way to say these aren’t the people you’re looking for.
It is amazing that Israel is inhabited by people that call themselves Jews, that those people are hated throughout the world even though their ancestors went through the worst time in concentration camps before they were given the land they live on now. Not only that, there is now debates whether that really happens to the Jews, and how many were actually killed and tortured in those camps...so interesting don’t ya think?

Now you’re saying, we don’t even think the people living in Israel are actual Jews? And the people who have been living there are more Jew than the people calling them Jews? The Palestinians who are trying to say they have as much right if not more to the land? Ya, ok..:rolleyes:

Abraham did have Ishmael before he had Isaac, but the covenant is not with Ishmael but went through Isaac instead..could be the answer you’re looking for.
Genesis‬ ‭17:15-19‬ ‭
Then God said to Abraham, “As for Sarai your wife, you shall not call her name Sarai, but Sarah shall be her name. I will bless her, and indeed I will give you a son by her. Then I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of peoples will come from her.” Then Abraham fell on his face and laughed, and said in his heart, “Will a child be born to a man one hundred years old? And will Sarah, who is ninety years old, bear a child? ” And Abraham said to God, “Oh that Ishmael might live before You!” But God said, “No, but Sarah your wife will bear you a son, and you shall call his name Isaac; and I will establish My covenant with him for an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him.”
‭‭
 
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That’s if all that is actually true, I don’t think it is, just another way to say these aren’t the people you’re looking for.
It is amazing that Israel is inhabited by people that call themselves Jews, that those people are hated throughout the world even though their ancestors went through the worst time in concentration camps before they were given the land they live on now. Not only that, there is now debates whether that really happens to the Jews, and how many were actually killed and tortured in those camps...so interesting don’t ya think?

Now you’re saying, we don’t even think the people living in Israel are actual Jews? And the people who have been living there are more Jew than the people calling them Jews? The Palestinians who are trying to say they have as much right if not more to the land? Ya, ok..:rolleyes:

Abraham did have Ishmael before he had Isaac, but the covenant is not with Ishmael but went through Isaac instead..could be the answer you’re looking for.
Genesis‬ ‭17:15-19‬ ‭​

Then God said to Abraham, “As for Sarai your wife, you shall not call her name Sarai, but Sarah shall be her name. I will bless her, and indeed I will give you a son by her. Then I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of peoples will come from her.” Then Abraham fell on his face and laughed, and said in his heart, “Will a child be born to a man one hundred years old? And will Sarah, who is ninety years old, bear a child? ” And Abraham said to God, “Oh that Ishmael might live before You!” But God said, “No, but Sarah your wife will bear you a son, and you shall call his name Isaac; and I will establish My covenant with him for an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him.”

‭‭
Your response -
"but the holocaust.
ya ok.
bible"

Sorry but none of that is relavant to the facts presented. All of them still stand unchallenged. You can try again if you like
 

Lisa

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Your response -
"but the holocaust.
ya ok.
bible"

Sorry but none of that is relavant to the facts presented. All of them still stand unchallenged. You can try again if you like
How I have history and the Bible and you have fake news..
 
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How I have history and the Bible and you have fake news..
In fact the Bible quote you presented works directly against what you are arguing, and proves my point. Lets have a look.

"My covenant with him for an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him.”

‭‭So if the Ashkenazi Jews have no racial heritage in Israel, as has been easily proven by modern DNA studies, they have no claim to the land of Israel as racial descendents of Abraham. And if the modern Palestinians ARE racially semitic, they are in fact the descendents of Abraham and are the rightful bearers of the land of Israel. Given that this is your argument - "the Semitic descendents of Abraham have an everlasting right to the land of Israel" - you can now start arguing that the Palestinians have a right to the land over the European colonialists known as Ashkenazim, given that they are racially Semitic. I'm glad we could come to this conclusion together, thank you for supplying the helpful quotes
 

TempestOfTempo

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It’s funny with a prophecy like that that the world thinks the worst of that tiny nation, isn’t it? Or is it prophecy at work? I think its prophecy at work and continuing to work. The Bible doesn’t say they are believers who live there, but unbelievers since they want to build a temple, we Christian's know that you don’t need a temple and sacrifice anymore, but they who rejected Jesus don’t know that and won’t accept what we know. When that treaty is formed with Israel allowing the rebuilding of the temple..watch out! That’s when the clock starts ticking...
"The Bible doesn’t say"
The Bible says this.... or the Torah says this?
 

Red Sky at Morning

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With regard to the discussion above, a number of us have shared what we believe to be a Biblical outline of what the various prophecies suggest the present trends in history might be leading to.

Certainly it is very concerning. For my own part, I would have liked to have lived in peaceful times, in fact I spent many years NOT wanting to know or see anything about “Bible prophecies unfolding”.

Oddly, I think this Lord of the Rings clip started to change my thinking...


As far as this world is concerned, it is either undirected and history is simply cyclical, directed by “elites” for their own ends or, if God has a hand in human affairs, ultimately “His-story”.

I suspect the latter, and I suspect we may yet see things on the world stage which will surprise us all.

0531B0AF-0DE9-4370-843E-4B9B4B416522.jpeg
 
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Lisa

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In fact the Bible quote you presented works directly against what you are arguing, and proves my point. Lets have a look.

"My covenant with him for an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him.”

‭‭So if the Ashkenazi Jews have no racial heritage in Israel, as has been easily proven by modern DNA studies, they have no claim to the land of Israel as racial descendents of Abraham. And if the modern Palestinians ARE racially semitic, they are in fact the descendents of Abraham and are the rightful bearers of the land of Israel. Given that this is your argument - "the Semitic descendents of Abraham have an everlasting right to the land of Israel" - you can now start arguing that the Palestinians have a right to the land over the European colonialists known as Ashkenazim, given that they are racially Semitic. I'm glad we could come to this conclusion together, thank you for supplying the helpful quotes
Lol! The descendants are from Isaac and not just any descendant will do and the Palestinians aren’t a part of the covenant.

You can keep saying that the Jews aren’t Jews in Israel but you aren’t telling the truth there.
 

Todd

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God put Judah over Benjamin because of the treachery of the tribe of Benjamin.. but Zionists have reversed this. Go read in the Bible what Jacob has to say about Judah vs. Benjamin in the Torah.. or what Samuel says about David (Judah) vs. Saul (Benjamin) In the Book of Samuel.
The self proclaimed Apostle Paul was from the tribe of Benjamin and Jesus was from the tribe of Judah...
 

Mark

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The covenant was not everlasting @Lisa but simply until the end of the age, it continued in force down until the promulgation of the Gospel.

In like fashion, other features of God's many promises to Old Testament Israel were also explicitly 'for ever' and yet manifestly temporal in duration. The Aaronic Levites as priests (1 Chron. 23:13) and he descendants of David as kings (2Sam. 7:12-16) were likewise 'for ever', yet both have come to an end and are unambiguously seen as fulfilled in Christ in the New Testament.

@Lisa The expression 'for ever'needs to be seen, not so much in terms of 'everlastingness' in linear time, but rather as an intensive expression within the terms, conditions and context of the promise concerned.

Again, you are forgetting that 'for ever' is not, in Hebrew, as infinite as it sounds in English. When the land, the kings and the priests were declared to be 'for ever', it meant that these dimensions were permanent and guaranteed while Israel as a nation was he limit of God's redemptive work and covenant relationship. Once this national and territorial basis was transcended through the coming of the Messiah and the extension of the gospel of redemption to Gentiles and Jews through him, then the 'for ever-ness' of these things resides in Christ himself, the embodiment of Israel.

What you are currently doing Lisa is falling headlong into the trap of the Talmudic Kabbalists. Their aim is deception and distraction. They have promoted futurism through Jesuit Theologians and then ordered world events to make it appear that this warped interpretation of biblical prophecy is being fulfilled. With many now watching Israel for further prophetic fulfillment, their gaze is taken from watching their own front door and the most monumental infiltration of the church is taking place.

The leven has been hid in the meal and is now rising. The people of God are being surrounded on all sides but many are too caught up in this quasi-Jewish theology of 'sacred turf' to notice.
 
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Lol! The descendants are from Isaac and not just any descendant will do and the Palestinians aren’t a part of the covenant.

You can keep saying that the Jews aren’t Jews in Israel but you aren’t telling the truth there.
Hi Lisa let me explain again.

If your argument is that the lineage of the Semitic people have a right to the land of Israel, regardless of their religion, because most Israelis you are arguing for are atheists, then that very argument in fact justifies the Palestinians and the Syrians right to live on that land, even though they're muslim now. Just like you thought Ashkenazis should live there even though theyre atheists now.

This is because the Palestinians and Syrians are racial, blood, descendents of Abraham. The Ashkenazi are Europeans. Someone with 100% Ashkenazi DNA never had an ancestor who lived in Israel. They are not descendents of Shem, therefore are not "Shemitic", descended from the son of Noah named Shem. They are descended from Japhet, so they are "Japhetic".

So again, your argument that the right to the Israeli land belongs to the this particular bloodline regardless of their reglion, means you are in fact in favor of the Palestinian arabs living on that land. That is as far as your argument goes. Do you understand?

Ill break it down again

You say - land belongs to descendents of abraham
descendents of abraham are Palestinian
Ashkenazi Atheists are European. 0% descended from Judah
Therefore you are arguing that the group currently known as "Jews" do not have a right to the land.

You can try another argument but this one does not work, given the Biblical passages and DNA and historical evidence available.
 

Red Sky at Morning

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The covenant was not everlasting @Lisa but simply until the end of the age, it continued in force down until the promulgation of the Gospel.

In like fashion, other features of God's many promises to Old Testament Israel were also explicitly 'for ever' and yet manifestly temporal in duration. The Aaronic Levites as priests (1 Chron. 23:13) and he descendants of David as kings (2Sam. 7:12-16) were likewise 'for ever', yet both have come to an end and are unambiguously seen as fulfilled in Christ in the New Testament.

@Lisa The expression 'for ever'needs to be seen, not so much in terms of 'everlastingness' in linear time, but rather as an intensive expression within the terms, conditions and context of the promise concerned.

Again, you are forgetting that 'for ever' is not, in Hebrew, as infinite as it sounds in English. When the land, the kings and the priests were declared to be 'for ever', it meant that these dimensions were permanent and guaranteed while Israel as a nation was he limit of God's redemptive work and covenant relationship. Once his national and territorial basis was transcended through the coming of the Messiah and the extension of the gospel of redemption to Gentiles and Jews through him, then the 'for ever-ness' of these things resides in Christ himself, the embodiment of Israel.

What you are currently doing Lisa is falling headlong into the trap of the Talmudic Kabbalists. Their aim is deception and distraction. They have promoted futurism through Jesuit Theologians and then ordered world events to make it appear that this warped interpretation of biblical prophecy is being fulfilled. With many now watching Israel for further prophetic fulfillment, their gaze is taken from watching their own front door and the most monumental infiltration of the church is taking place.

The leven has been hid in the meal and is now rising. The people of God are being surrounded on all sides but many are too caught up in this quasi-Jewish theology of 'sacred turf' to notice.
What if the “Jesuit Theologian” narrative itself was a double bluff straight from the mind of Satan?

Think about it.

DFE963C3-61B7-4719-8E7E-44331C699955.jpeg

What better way (and crueller) way to assault Jews than by recruiting Christians to attack? Simultaneously it aims to discredit and distance Jewish people from Jesus and disguise from Christians the times we are truly living in.

If I were the Fallen One, this is how I would do it.

I mean no personal disrespect to those who are drawn to this narrative, but it does seem to have the smell of sulphur about it.
 
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Lisa

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The covenant was not everlasting @Lisa but simply until the end of the age, it continued in force down until the promulgation of the Gospel.

In like fashion, other features of God's many promises to Old Testament Israel were also explicitly 'for ever' and yet manifestly temporal in duration. The Aaronic Levites as priests (1 Chron. 23:13) and he descendants of David as kings (2Sam. 7:12-16) were likewise 'for ever', yet both have come to an end and are unambiguously seen as fulfilled in Christ in the New Testament.

@Lisa The expression 'for ever'needs to be seen, not so much in terms of 'everlastingness' in linear time, but rather as an intensive expression within the terms, conditions and context of the promise concerned.

Again, you are forgetting that 'for ever' is not, in Hebrew, as infinite as it sounds in English. When the land, the kings and the priests were declared to be 'for ever', it meant that these dimensions were permanent and guaranteed while Israel as a nation was he limit of God's redemptive work and covenant relationship. Once his national and territorial basis was transcended through the coming of the Messiah and the extension of the gospel of redemption to Gentiles and Jews through him, then the 'for ever-ness' of these things resides in Christ himself, the embodiment of Israel.

What you are currently doing Lisa is falling headlong into the trap of the Talmudic Kabbalists. Their aim is deception and distraction. They have promoted futurism through Jesuit Theologians and then ordered world events to make it appear that this warped interpretation of biblical prophecy is being fulfilled. With many now watching Israel for further prophetic fulfillment, their gaze is taken from watching their own front door and the most monumental infiltration of the church is taking place.

The leven has been hid in the meal and is now rising. The people of God are being surrounded on all sides but many are too caught up in this quasi-Jewish theology of 'sacred turf' to notice.
Lol, I’m able to see Israel and see the seasons and to notice that there is apostasy, so I think that you’re being overly dramatic here.

As for God being Israel’s God forever, He meant it. Which is why there is still a Jewish nation and why they haven’t all been lost somewhere in the conglomeration of the world. They still retain their ethnicity because they are still God’s chosen people. He still remembers His covenant with His faithless people just like He said He would. Even if they are faithless, He is faithful he can’t help Himself.

Yes, Jesus did change the terms of the sacrifice, but He didn’t change who God’s chosen people were since He came to the Jew first then then the gentiles. There was always a separation, even is gentiles are only grafted in to the olive tree that Israel was a part of through the covenant.

And they do figure in end times prophecy right where they are supposed to be, that can’t be a coincidence either can it? And it’s not the Jesuits I studied prophecy under. I’ve read the Bible..I see the prophetic words that are to come. I’ve studied the end times.
 

TempestOfTempo

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The covenant was not everlasting @Lisa but simply until the end of the age, it continued in force down until the promulgation of the Gospel.

In like fashion, other features of God's many promises to Old Testament Israel were also explicitly 'for ever' and yet manifestly temporal in duration. The Aaronic Levites as priests (1 Chron. 23:13) and he descendants of David as kings (2Sam. 7:12-16) were likewise 'for ever', yet both have come to an end and are unambiguously seen as fulfilled in Christ in the New Testament.

@Lisa The expression 'for ever'needs to be seen, not so much in terms of 'everlastingness' in linear time, but rather as an intensive expression within the terms, conditions and context of the promise concerned.

Again, you are forgetting that 'for ever' is not, in Hebrew, as infinite as it sounds in English. When the land, the kings and the priests were declared to be 'for ever', it meant that these dimensions were permanent and guaranteed while Israel as a nation was he limit of God's redemptive work and covenant relationship. Once this national and territorial basis was transcended through the coming of the Messiah and the extension of the gospel of redemption to Gentiles and Jews through him, then the 'for ever-ness' of these things resides in Christ himself, the embodiment of Israel.

What you are currently doing Lisa is falling headlong into the trap of the Talmudic Kabbalists. Their aim is deception and distraction. They have promoted futurism through Jesuit Theologians and then ordered world events to make it appear that this warped interpretation of biblical prophecy is being fulfilled. With many now watching Israel for further prophetic fulfillment, their gaze is taken from watching their own front door and the most monumental infiltration of the church is taking place.

The leven has been hid in the meal and is now rising. The people of God are being surrounded on all sides but many are too caught up in this quasi-Jewish theology of 'sacred turf' to notice.
I hope you expound further on your posting here!
 

TempestOfTempo

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Hi Lisa let me explain again.

If your argument is that the lineage of the Semitic people have a right to the land of Israel, regardless of their religion, because most Israelis you are arguing for are atheists, then that very argument in fact justifies the Palestinians and the Syrians right to live on that land, even though they're muslim now. Just like you thought Ashkenazis should live there even though theyre atheists now.

This is because the Palestinians and Syrians are racial, blood, descendents of Abraham. The Ashkenazi are Europeans. Someone with 100% Ashkenazi DNA never had an ancestor who lived in Israel. They are not descendents of Shem, therefore are not "Shemitic", descended from the son of Noah named Shem. They are descended from Japhet, so they are "Japhetic".

So again, your argument that the right to the Israeli land belongs to the this particular bloodline regardless of their reglion, means you are in fact in favor of the Palestinian arabs living on that land. That is as far as your argument goes. Do you understand?

Ill break it down again

You say - land belongs to descendents of abraham
descendents of abraham are Palestinian
Ashkenazi Atheists are European. 0% descended from Judah
Therefore you are arguing that the group currently known as "Jews" do not have a right to the land.

You can try another argument but this one does not work, given the Biblical passages and DNA and historical evidence available.
This is quickly becoming the crux of the posting matter here!
 
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