Do you believe in the Pretrib Rapture? If yes, what convinced you?

Floridafoot

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Im curious how everyone else interprets these verses. If it's not a pre wrath rapture does it mean that all saved believers die before the wrath of God/the final plagues?
This is more what I tend to believe. The verses speak of those who took the mark, implying that there will be those who haven't taken it. I do not believe it is only the 144,000 who don't take the mark because the scriptures talk of the persecution of those who refuse it. I always go back to the story of the Passover. Is it a type of what will come in the tribulation? Those covered by the blood of the Lamb will not be harmed by the plagues? I think, like you have suggested, we will be here at least for the first half of the tribulation. I think the noahide laws, the provisions for guillotines point to the fulfillment of this passage:

Rev 7 13-17 "And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? 14And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. 16They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. 17For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes."

The pretrib rapture implies all Christians will be taken away from the madness. Spared from a tortuous death. But God doesn't see death the way people do. The pretrib rapture supporters say that God would never let His people suffer through this terrible time. But God considers it a honor to suffer and die for Christ's name.
 

Floridafoot

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How bad does it need to get before people realize that we are already in the greatest oppression (tribulation) of all time, and have been in it already for decades?
I hear ya, AFreeman. But it hasn't been Tribulation bad. There has been war and persecution, but not on the scale of the End times. We are moving into it now. We are in "the birth pains"
 

A Freeman

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Additional references to the "New Song" which only those who shall be redeemed from the Earth (the "Elect") will learn to sing:-

Psalm 33:3-4
33:3 Sing unto Him a New Song; play skilfully with a loud noise.
33:4 For the Word of the "I AM" [is] Right; and all His works [are done] in Truth.

Psalm 40:3 And He hath put a New Song in my mouth, [even] praise unto our God: many shall see [it], and fear, and shall trust in the "I AM".

Psalm 96:1-2
96:1 O sing unto the "I AM" a New Song: sing unto the "I AM", all the earth.
96:2 Sing unto the "I AM", bless His name (Exod. 3:14); show forth His salvation from day to day.

Psalm 98:1 <A Psalm.> O sing unto the "I AM" a New Song; for He hath done marvellous things: His right hand, and His holy arm, hath gotten Him the victory.

Psalm 144:9 I will sing a New Song unto Thee, O God: upon a psaltery [and] an instrument of ten strings will I sing praises unto Thee.

Psalm 149:1 Praise ye the "I AM". Sing unto the "I AM" a New Song, [and] His praise in the congregation of His holy people (Deut. 26:18).

Isaiah 42:10 Sing unto the "I AM" the "New Song" (Rev. 14:3; 15:3), [and] His praise from the "end of the earth", ye that go down to the sea, and all that is therein; the isles, and the inhabitants thereof.

Isaiah 5:9 And they sung a New Song (Isa 42:10), saying, Thou art worthy to take the Book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

See also: Jer. 31:31-34; Heb. 8:7-13; and Heb. 10:16-32.

The entire world has been invited to sing the "New Song", which no one except the "Elect can learn. It is referred to as a NEW Song, because it is something that none of us here have ever learned before. And just as learning a "song" means learning to sing it by heart (from memory), the New Song will be written in the hearts and minds of those who truly strive to DO God's Will, as Christ COMMANDS.
 
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Flarepath

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I once very briefly dated a a woman who it turned out was a Rapturist, so i asked her to explain what it meant.
She said it means all christians will instantly be Raptured (i.e. vanish off to heaven), leaving everybody back on earth wondering where they went.
So I said "But what if those who were raptured were airline pilots or bus and train drivers, wouldn't the pilotless and driverless planes and vehicles crash?"
She replied with "Yes but it can't be helped, and anyway airlines always have a christian pilot and nonchristian copilot aboard so that the copilot can take over the controls when the pilot is Raptured away".
I still don't know if she was serious or joking..:)
 

Floridafoot

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.
So I said "But what if those who were raptured were airline pilots or bus and train drivers, wouldn't the pilotless and driverless planes and vehicles crash?"
She replied with "Yes but it can't be helped, and anyway airlines always have a christian pilot and nonchristian copilot aboard so that the copilot can take over the controls when the pilot is Raptured away".
I still don't know if she was serious or joking..:)
Wow. I wonder if she really did believe that about the pilots.
 

Floridafoot

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Here's watchman on the wall again. In his latest video he discusses how believers are already starting to have doubts about the rapture etc. He actually mentions some of his viewers saying "maybe Jesus is tarrying".. as if Jesus struggles with indecisiveness. This exposes the weakening of their faith. If they are already having doubts what will happen when all hell breaks loose?

 

Daze

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Strange, did you ask for this thread to be deleted or something? Oddly enough, the title isn't loading.

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A Freeman

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I hear ya, AFreeman. But it hasn't been Tribulation bad. There has been war and persecution, but not on the scale of the End times. We are moving into it now. We are in "the birth pains"
It has been very bad for decades to anyone who is spiritually awake and can see the needless murdering, poisoning, injustice and oppression of billions of people.

It will continue to worsen as we approach Judgement Day, exactly as prophesied. Very soon, what is happening in Gaza will develop into a larger, regional war that will kill a third of mankind as it becomes WW3, according to Biblical prophecy. At the same time, we are being threatened with additional virus scams, which will inevitably cause breakdowns in supply chains, and threaten the water supply, causing the famines and water shortages that are likewise prophesied.

The environmental damage we have caused will also continue to take its toll, contributing to the prophesied famines, water shortages and war over the world's resources.

We are certainly in "the birth pains" right now, and will continue to be in them until Judgement Day, when the 144,000 are delivered.
 

Flarepath

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We are certainly in "the birth pains" right now, and will continue to be in them until Judgement Day, when the 144,000 are delivered.

Who will the 144,000 be exactly?
And how will they be "delivered"?
And why that precise figure, why not 144,001 or 143, 999?
 

A Freeman

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Who will the 144,000 be exactly?
Revelation 7:4-9
7:4 And I HEARD the number of them which were sealed: [and there were] sealed an hundred [and] forty [and] four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
7:5 Of the tribe of Judah [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad [were] sealed twelve thousand.
7:6 Of the tribe of Asher [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Naphtali [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasseh [were] sealed twelve thousand.
7:7 Of the tribe of Simeon [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar [were] sealed twelve thousand.
7:8 Of the tribe of Zebulun [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph/Ephraim [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin [were] sealed twelve thousand.
7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could count (which is why he was told in verse 4), of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the Throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Revelation 14:1-4
14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the Mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty [and] four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
14:2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many "waters", and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
14:3 And they sung as it were a New Song (Isaiah 42:10) before the Throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that "Song" except the hundred [and] forty [and] four thousand, which were redeemed from the Earth.
14:4 These are they which were not corrupted by women; for they are pure. These are they which follow the Lamb wheresoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, [being] the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb (obeying God NOT women).

And how will they be "delivered"?
Revelation 20:12 - 21:7
20:12 And I saw the "Dead", small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another Book was opened, which is [the Book] of Life: and the "Dead" were judged out of those things which were written in the Books, according to their works.
20:13 And the "sea" gave up the "Dead" which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their WORKS.
20:14 And death and hell were cast into the "Lake of Fire". This is the second death.
20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the "Lake of Fire".
21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new Earth: for the first heaven and the first Earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
21:2 And I John saw the Holy City, "New Jerusalem", coming DOWN from God OUT OF HEAVEN, prepared as a Bride adorned for her husband.
21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the Tabernacle of God [is] with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself shall be with them, [and be] their God.
21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
21:5 And He that sat upon the Throne said, Behold, I make all things NEW. And He said unto me, Write: for these words are True and Faithful.
21:6 And He said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the Water of Life freely.
21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be My (adopted) son.

And why that precise figure, why not 144,001 or 143, 999?
Isn't that a question for Father (God)? Doesn't He know best?
 
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