Do the “elites” believe the Rapture is imminent?

[Red Sky at Morning]

That is one thing I like about you Red. Despite our differences you have an excellent education in manners.
To answer your question, life is pretty much the same for me as an introvert I am mostly at home anyway and as a home-schooler we have the same schedule as before. Thanks for asking.

It’s so different for me - I used to barely be at home and now I’m in with kids, dogs as DIY!!! I feel like I’m under house arrest and I’ve never spent more time on Facebook, WhatsApp and the VCF!

 

[Infinityloop]

If Christ was only a man, the sacrifice would have been pointless.

Psalm 49:7​

Spoiler

No man can possibly redeem his brother or pay his ransom to God. For the redemption of his soul is costly, and never can payment suffice, that he should live on forever and not see decay.

​

Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, “Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us.”
He (Jesus) answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.”
(Matthew 15:23-24)



You shall not worship YHWH your God in that way, for every abominable thing that YHWH hates they have done for their gods, for they even burn their sons and their daughters in the fire to their gods. (Deteronomy 12:31)

There shall not be found among you anyone who burns his son or his daughter as an offering (Deuteronomy 18:10)

And he burned his son as an offering and used fortune-telling and omens and dealt with mediums and with necromancers. He did much evil in the sight of YHWH, provoking him to anger. (2 Kings 21:6)


Nonetheless, to any sane and rational person, they would see the sense in why God tested Abraham with Issac and what the message actually was (aka, God does not accept human sacrifice in any way shape or form and that God is merciful in his forgiveness of humanity).

"And now, Israel, what does YHWH your God ask of you but to fear YHWH your God, to walk in obedience to him, to love him, to serve YHWH your God with all your heart and with all your soul, and to observe YHWH’s commands and decrees that I am giving you today for your own good?
To YHWH your God belong the heavens, even the highest heavens, the earth and everything in it. Yet YHWH set his affection on your ancestors and loved them, and he chose you, their descendants, above all the nations—as it is today. Circumcise your hearts, therefore, and do not be stiff-necked any longer.
For YHWH your God is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great God, mighty and awesome, who shows no partiality and accepts no bribes. He defends the cause of the fatherless and the widow, and loves the foreigner residing among you, giving them food and clothing. And you are to love those who are foreigners, for you yourselves were foreigners in Egypt." (Deuteronomy 10:14-19)


Yes, if Jesus (according to the Bible) was meant to be a sin sacrifice, then according to the Torah, God would not accept it whatsoever. And in fact, from the very beginning of the Torah, God had been doing what you claim was the point of Jesus' "sacrifice".
As a sacrifice, yes Jesus was pointless.
Clearly his purpose was not to be a sacrifice but rather something else.

 

[Tidal]

Thoughts on Christian terminology....
Hypostatic Union, Soteriology, The Trinity, Eschatology, Molinism and conditional subjunctives....
The list goes on and it can make it sound like you need a phd to understand the Bible!..

Haha yes, big words like that are mostly used by "bible snobs" to make themselves sound like they know more than the rest of us poor dumb schmucks..

 

[KoncreteMind]

Second Exodus? Tell more @KoncreteMind

Well you have to read about the prophecies in Ezekiel, Isaiah, Jeremiah etc... about the Most High regathering His people in front of everyone from all the places around the world He scattered them. So when Trump was talking about the wall, it wasnt to keep Mexicans out (since thats cheap labor and they dont want any national borders anyways) but to keep the Israelites from moving from the land of the north (Jeremiah 31:8) to the promised land.

I mean what is the significance of the year after Trump releases a "400 years of African American commission act" theres a plagu... err... I mean "virus" that made it to where billion dollar industries were immediately put to a halt? Whats coming next? Only time will tell I guess

 

[KoncreteMind]

Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, “Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us.”
He (Jesus) answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.”
(Matthew 15:23-24)



You shall not worship YHWH your God in that way, for every abominable thing that YHWH hates they have done for their gods, for they even burn their sons and their daughters in the fire to their gods. (Deteronomy 12:31)

There shall not be found among you anyone who burns his son or his daughter as an offering (Deuteronomy 18:10)

And he burned his son as an offering and used fortune-telling and omens and dealt with mediums and with necromancers. He did much evil in the sight of YHWH, provoking him to anger. (2 Kings 21:6)


Nonetheless, to any sane and rational person, they would see the sense in why God tested Abraham with Issac and what the message actually was (aka, God does not accept human sacrifice in any way shape or form and that God is merciful in his forgiveness of humanity).

"And now, Israel, what does YHWH your God ask of you but to fear YHWH your God, to walk in obedience to him, to love him, to serve YHWH your God with all your heart and with all your soul, and to observe YHWH’s commands and decrees that I am giving you today for your own good?
To YHWH your God belong the heavens, even the highest heavens, the earth and everything in it. Yet YHWH set his affection on your ancestors and loved them, and he chose you, their descendants, above all the nations—as it is today. Circumcise your hearts, therefore, and do not be stiff-necked any longer.
For YHWH your God is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great God, mighty and awesome, who shows no partiality and accepts no bribes. He defends the cause of the fatherless and the widow, and loves the foreigner residing among you, giving them food and clothing. And you are to love those who are foreigners, for you yourselves were foreigners in Egypt." (Deuteronomy 10:14-19)


Yes, if Jesus (according to the Bible) was meant to be a sin sacrifice, then according to the Torah, God would not accept it whatsoever. And in fact, from the very beginning of the Torah, God had been doing what you claim was the point of Jesus' "sacrifice".
As a sacrifice, yes Jesus was pointless.
Clearly his purpose was not to be a sacrifice but rather something else.

Interesting.. I agree with your post but am under the impression that you're a Muslim? If you dont mind me asking, and correct me if Im wrong on the Muslim tidbit, what do you believe that "something else" to be?

 

[KoncreteMind]

First, I don’t take offence KarlyS on your view of the Rapture - if my theology didn’t support it and someone else came in promoting the idea, I would likely call it out as a deception (therefore being a diabolical modification to doctrine for evil purposes).

I think the great deception and the strong delusion will be the response to the Rapture. If my sources are on the right track, the deception will involve “ascended masters” arriving on the scene, and offering to take us to the next level in our collective evolution...

Read Ezekiel 1. "UFO's" seem to actually be chariots. IMO of course...

 

[Infinityloop]

Interesting.. I agree with your post but am under the impression that you're a Muslim? If you dont mind me asking, and correct me if Im wrong on the Muslim tidbit, what do you believe that "something else" to be?

Jesus was only sent to the Jews, his purpose was to redirect 'the house/children of Israel' towards a more complete understanding of the Torah which as shown in the Old Testament (Tanakh) itself was something they kept drifting away from. Matthew 5:17-20 sums up things very well, John 1 also reflects this. Prior to Jesus we had the notion in Midrash of the Torah itself being an eternal expression of God, the idea of Jesus as provided by the New Testament is that he is the embodiment of 'correct thought/deeds/actions' etc and an adherent of pure monotheism (Jesus believed in Deuteronomy 6:4-5 strongly and repeated it as the thing that the Pharisees were devoid of at the time). Jesus was not the 'incarnation of God', he was the embodiment of the Torah. He was a living demonstration for the Pharisees.
He was the anointed one, in the truer and more unadulterated sense of the term.

Just like with the Talmud, the New Testament deals with a lot of evolved variations of what this idea can mean and how it would play out as a historical event, as influenced by the religious cultures of many other (which I'll explain more later in this post).

God does not change and God provided the path of salvation since the beginning of all things. Jesus being a sacrifice of our sins and a collective sin offering or scapegoat for humanity is a fundamental contradiction of the direct and consistent ontology of existence, as revealed timelessly by God to the Prophets.

The concept of the "Messiah" (or Moschiach in Hebrew, Christos in Greek) is something that evolved over time, and in quite a mythological fashion. I don't believe the concept itself is fundamentally wrong (because it clearly has it's place in temple ritual, related to consecration) but the evolution of the concept has certainly been heavily influenced a lot by Zoroastrianism (as very evident by all texts dated around the exile period and the ongoing adoration of the Israelites toward Cyrus the Great who was considered a Messiah of the Israelites in various Tanakh books) and other things, plus it's hellenization within the mainstream Christian understanding.

And yes there are many angles to come at this from.

As I said in an earlier post:

The "anointed one" is a concept that has evolved through history.
1. The first context is related to a purified priest in Levitical rituals found in the Pentateuch,
2. the second context is the wider scope of said purity in the context of various historical figures (there are many "messiahs" in the Old Testament),
3. third evolution of the concept is used as a title (in the Talmud only) to refer to some form of eschatological figure or ruler,
4. the fourth evolution of the concept is used to refer to a reinterpretation of the previous being more mythologized into a reforming character which completely disregards the first three,
5. the fifth evolution is the "godman" idolatry of Christianity with the development of the concept of "Christology" (derived from the Greek term) which is a theology related to incarnationism.

As far as the Qur'an is concerned (since you mention it), it seems to use the word closer to the sense of the second aspect of the concept's evolution.

The New Testament contains many contradictory Christologies, which has been historically the cause of the creation of so many sects both pre-Catholic (including those referred to by the pejorative of "Gnostic") and in the Protestant era. The lack of a basis in historical understanding of these concepts creates new sects, even to this day. Start with the Levitical rituals and work your way through the rest of the Tanakh and Talmud. Then see in which way the various Christologies of the New Testament both affirm, oppose, contradict and polemicize against this.
It's all a convoluted mess but a very very interesting thing to study

 

[elsbet]

Is this explained in aramiac as well?
Did those poor fishermen understand the hypo-st-atic Un-ion?
Dear elsbet i am gonna tease you. I already stopped myself from teasing Red about the elite caring about Christians hoping to fly away from the end times troubles.
Let us keep forgiveness simple God forgave Adam and Eve but not satan because it did not ask for forgiveness.
Forgiveness is accessible through repentance and Prophet Jesus peace be upon Him was always a messenger and a Prophet which is the highest status known to man.humans or human people if you wanna be pc. Only One God not part of His creation.
Just dropped in for a sec.
Make no mistake I am not making fun but calling to our path.

Better we should not be intimidated by technical terms, created by quackademics, when their meanings are so easily accessed:

​

Hypostatic Union​

... how God the Son, Jesus Christ, took on a human nature, yet remained fully God at the same time.​

And to answer your question...
YES-- it has been explained in virtually every language on earth!

Spoiler

...the Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it. JOHN 1:5

​

As to our fishermen, Jesus said--

​

"... who do you say that I am?”​

Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah!"​

SOMETHING TO KEEP IN MIND
Though God did forgive Adam and Eve, they still suffered death, just as He said they would--> because Death was, and still is, the inevitable result of sin.

Spoiler: Rom. 5:12

...just as sin entered into the world through one man, and death through sin, so also death passed to all men, because all sinned.

However...

Spoiler

For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
2 Corinthians 5:21 ESVUK

 

[Infinityloop]

SOMETHING TO KEEP IN MIND
Though God did forgive Adam and Eve, they still suffered death, just as He said they would--> because Death was, and still is, the inevitable result of sin.

Yes and Jesus dying hasn't changed that whatsoever.

I would not be incorrect to state that you will die someday, as will I and anyone else.

 

[seekinheart]

Yes and Jesus dying hasn't changed that whatsoever.

I would not be incorrect to state that you will die someday, as will I and anyone else.

not forever, eventually death will no longer be in the world.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Ordo ab Chao?

Are we in a perfect storm which will create a one-world economy, a one-world government and a one-world religion...

 

[Wigi]

Benedict Spinoza's conclusion was basically that anything described outside of natural laws in the Bible probably didn't happen. Natural laws are somewhat difficult to workaround. However, I still think natural laws are not fully understood

It seems like you're adopting a deist approach in the sense that God made natural laws and eventually gave us guidelines so we could know what He wills for us but there's no room for the supernatural.
I understand where you're at and honestly I don't know what to think about the rapture either.

@Red Sky at Morning Do you have a link or a book that explains the biblical rapture? I have yet to learn on that topic.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

It seems like you're adopting a deist approach in the sense that God made natural laws and eventually gave us guidelines so we could know what He wills for us but there's no room for the supernatural.
I understand where you're at and honestly I don't know what to think about the rapture either.

@Red Sky at Morning Do you have a link or a book that explains the biblical rapture? I have yet to learn on that topic.

I enjoyed reading this one by Chuck Missler a few years ago...

The Rapture: Christianity's Most Preposterous Belief eBook : Missler, Dr Chuck: Amazon.co.uk: Kindle Store

The Rapture: Christianity's Most Preposterous Belief eBook : Missler, Dr Chuck: Amazon.co.uk: Kindle Store

www.amazon.co.uk

“There continue to be many questions concerning the "Rapture" of the Church and its apparent contrast with the "Second Coming" of Jesus Christ. Where does this strange view come from? Is the term "rapture" even in the Bible?

Clearly, the idea of the Rapture can be considered the most preposterous belief in Biblical Christianity. The situation regarding the doctrine of the Rapture is painfully similar to the famous quote by Dr. Richard Feynman, speaking of quantum physics:

“I think it is safe to say that no one understands quantum mechanics... in fact, it is often stated of all the theories proposed in this century, the silliest is quantum theory. Some say that the only thing that quantum theory has going for it, in fact, is that it is unquestionably correct.”​

 

[Wigi]

I enjoyed reading this one by Chuck Missler a few years ago...

The Rapture: Christianity's Most Preposterous Belief eBook : Missler, Dr Chuck: Amazon.co.uk: Kindle Store

The Rapture: Christianity's Most Preposterous Belief eBook : Missler, Dr Chuck: Amazon.co.uk: Kindle Store

www.amazon.co.uk

“There continue to be many questions concerning the "Rapture" of the Church and its apparent contrast with the "Second Coming" of Jesus Christ. Where does this strange view come from? Is the term "rapture" even in the Bible?

Clearly, the idea of the Rapture can be considered the most preposterous belief in Biblical Christianity. The situation regarding the doctrine of the Rapture is painfully similar to the famous quote by Dr. Richard Feynman, speaking of quantum physics:

​

“I think it is safe to say that no one understands quantum mechanics... in fact, it is often stated of all the theories proposed in this century, the silliest is quantum theory. Some say that the only thing that quantum theory has going for it, in fact, is that it is unquestionably correct.”​

Be blessed you're helping me a lot.
My first impression on the topic is that it justify the attitude of some christians that let evil triumph simply because a rapture is around the corner.
I'm not fine with that and I ask myself what if the rapture was a cryptic term invented by kabbalist to round up christians before a false messiah that will slaughter them. It's just my opinion but it sounds plausible plus i'm surprised by the idea that TPTB expouse this 'left behind' rethoric so well in movies/music. What if the rapture was the planned mass slaughter of christians that leads to the great apostasy? I apologize if i'm mistaken.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

My first impression on the topic is that it justify the attitude of some christians that let evil triumph simply because a rapture is around the corner.

I think this is the most commonly held objection to the idea that is raised. I think that what is being claimed warrants some scrutiny...

Q: Does the Rapture require that things in the world to be in a particularly bad state? If so, the idea that a pre-trib outlook must make Christians back of from opposing the NWO would have some traction.

A: No - God is sovereign and has the day and hour in His own knowledge, whatever is going on. God still wants Christians to be engaged with the Great Commission (in fact the parable of the workers in the vineyard suggests that God approves of these 11th hour workers and that engaging with bringing God’s light into this world till the very last moments of daylight is precisely what we should be doing).

 

[Wigi]

I think this is the most commonly held objection to the idea that is raised. I think that what is being claimed warrants some scrutiny...

Q: Does the Rapture require that things in the world to be in a particularly bad state? If so, the idea that a pre-trib outlook must make Christians back of from opposing the NWO would have some traction.

A: No - God is sovereign and has the day and hour in His own knowledge, whatever is going on. God still wants Christians to be engaged with the Great Commission (in fact the parable of the workers in the vineyard suggests that God approves of these 11th hour workers and that engaging with bringing God’s light into this world till the very last moments of daylight is precisely what we should be doing).

Which begs the question how our elites could prepare for a rapture? I mean if nobody knows the hour they don't know it either. Unless they want us to think we're living apocalyptic times and a NWO is necessary right now in a desperate attempt to thwart God's plan since globalization is falling apart? Maybe we're under a 'tower of babel' situation.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Which begs the question how our elites could prepare for a rapture? I mean if nobody knows the hour they don't know it either. Unless they want us to think we're living apocalyptic times and a NWO is necessary right now in a desperate attempt to thwart God's plan since globalization is falling apart? Maybe we're under a 'tower of babel' situation.

I think that comes down to the fact that Satan has perhaps no more (and no less) idea on the timing of the Rapture than Christians who obsess over eschatology!

I picture it a bit like a spiritual roulette table.

Imagine how he might react to Christians placing chips on Red 25. Do they know something I don’t?? Perhaps the dates may be significant? Whatever, when God sovereignty acts Satan’s time will be short. In order to get on with the “Great Work” of the NWO, their plans must be in place.

Might the Lord have been deliberately ambiguous on the possible timing of the Rapture for this very reason? Think about how many dates and patterns of return are linked to Biblical feasts, from Passover right through to Purim. Certainly it has been enough to keep YouTube Christian prognosticators busy for years because there is a world of difference between “might be” and “will” when looking into these topics.

Think about the average person, a month ago, they were off to work and life was normal. Now they are at home trying to figure out what on Earth is going on!!! In God’s mercy, what if the world as a whole were granted a moment of insight into the plans the powers and principalities (and their tools, the “elites”) had in store?

God is sovereign, and nothing will happen outside his will and timing, so if the NWO have flinched and released a scenario that shows their intentions, they may have let the cat out of the bag too soon and perhaps many may truly wake up before it’s too late?

I have many unsaved friends, family members and colleagues, and for their sake, I hope they have a little more time...

 

[Wigi]

I think that comes down to the fact that Satan has perhaps no more (and no less) idea on the timing of the Rapture than Christians who obsess over eschatology!

I picture it a bit like a spiritual roulette table.

Imagine how he might react to Christians placing chips on Red 25. Do they know something I don’t?? Perhaps the dates may be significant? Whatever, when God sovereignty acts Satan’s time will be short. In order to get on with the “Great Work” of the NWO, their plans must be in place.

Might the Lord have been deliberately ambiguous on the possible timing of the Rapture for this very reason? Think about how many dates and patterns of return are linked to Biblical feasts, from Passover right through to Purim. Certainly it has been enough to keep YouTube Christian prognosticators busy for years because there is a world of difference between “might be” and “will” when looking into these topics.

Think about the average person, a month ago, they were off to work and life was normal. Now they are at home trying to figure out what on Earth is going on!!! In God’s mercy, what if the world as a whole were granted a moment of insight into the plans the powers and principalities (and their tools, the “elites”) had in store?

God is sovereign, and nothing will happen outside his will and timing, so if the NWO have flinched and released a scenario that shows their intentions, they may have let the cat out of the bag too soon and perhaps many may truly wake up before it’s too late?

I have many unsaved friends, family members and colleagues, and for their sake, I hope they have a little more time...

We're few weeks away from passover. From your point of view, you think they are rushing their plans in case something like a rapture happens during that week but if nothing relatively big happens, tptb is inadvertently showing its cards too early because of panic ?
Personally I doubt people would wake up despite all the signs in fact many wouldn't bother to walk around with chains as long as they can drink some beers and enjoy their favorite entertainment/sports again.
In fact i'm sure some would make instagram posts to explain how 'trendy' it is to wear those shiny chains.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Personally I doubt people would wake up despite all the signs in fact many wouldn't bother to walk around with chains as long as they can drink some beers and enjoy their favorite entertainment/sports again.
In fact i'm sure some would make instagram posts to explain how 'trendy' it is to wear those shiny chains.

The tragedy is that your suspicions about people in general are true. There is a gap between what I hope for and what I expect!!!

 

[TokiEl]

Daniel's 70 weeks prophecy when correctly understood informs us that this is the middle of the 70th week.

It's very late and high time...