Do Christians who commit suicide go to hell?

phipps

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Agreed! just wanted your view point on it. Cuz here is mine. I think GOD did allow samuel to talk to Saul. The women said with a loud voice y have u deceived me. I think she was just thinking i'm going to BS him with her spirits or just lie to him and GOD allowed the actual spirit of Samuel was allowed to appear and he got the riot act from GOD's prophet. Sad thing is if he repented (imo) i think GOD would have forgiven him, but we see what happens when pride and fear take over and replace hope and security in GOD. just my take. I do see yours also.
God does not work against His inspired Word ever. If the Bible says the dead do not know anything and their thoughts have perished, that is what the dead are. The Bible says, "For the living know that they will die; but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, their hatred, and their envy have now perished; nevermore will they have a share in anything done under the sun" (Ecclesiastes 9:5-6). It couldn't have been Samuel, because when we die, we "know nothing." Samuel would have had to be alive to communicate with Saul and he definitely wasn't.

And if we look at the Scripture and study it, it actually says, "And the king said to her, “Do not be afraid. What did you see?” And the woman said to Saul, “I saw a spirit ascending out of the earth.” So he said to her, “What is his form?” And she said, “An old man is coming up, and he is covered with a mantle.” And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground and bowed down" (1Samuel 28:13-14). The blue part I've emphasised tells us Saul perceived it to be Samuel. It was not Samuel.

Whoever it was that appeared to Saul through the medium (it was either a demon or Satan impersonating Samuel) was not Samuel or connected to God in any way because firstly, the devil does not have the power to resurrect anyone, much less a witch. Only God resurrects the dead. Secondly, Samuel said to Saul, "And tomorrow you and your sons will be with me" (1 Samuel 28:19). How could Saul who had grieved away the Spirit of God be sharing anything with a holy prophet of God? They certainly wouldn't be going to the same place. Thirdly, the message that "Samuel" gives has absolutely no hope in it. The messages that the Lord usually gives give warning and hope. It was a hopeless message. It really seems like the devil kicked Saul for the last time while he was down.

Also God does not communicate with or pass messages through mediums and others with familiar spirits. He communicates with and through His prophets and men of God. Saul had banned all mediums from Israel too when he was a man of God because he knew they were an abomination to God as it says in Leviticus 19:31 and Deuteronomy 18:9-12. Leviticus 20:6 says, "And the person who turns to mediums and familiar spirits, to prostitute himself with them, I will set My face against that person and cut him off from his people."

Saul could not repent once God withdrew any contact from him. The Holy Spirit who is God withdrew from Saul too. It is the Holy spirit that leads us to repent after all. Because he did not have God, Saul sought the medium instead of God. "And when they say to you, 'Seek those who are mediums and wizards, who whisper and mutter,' should not a people seek their God? Should they seek the dead on behalf of the living? To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them" (Isaiah 8:19-20). The Bible is clear, we are too seek God when in need of counsel. That is why God couldn't have possibly communicated through the medium because He is not found there. We are not to seek for the dead on behalf of the living. If we need Him, we pray directly to Him not seek mediums, wizards and the like.
 






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Maldarker

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God does not work against His inspired Word ever. If the Bible says the dead do not know anything and their thoughts have perished, that is what the dead are. The Bible says, "For the living know that they will die; but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, their hatred, and their envy have now perished; nevermore will they have a share in anything done under the sun" (Ecclesiastes 9:5-6). It couldn't have been Samuel, because when we die, we "know nothing." Samuel would have had to be alive to communicate with Saul and he definitely wasn't.

And if we look at the Scripture and study it, it actually says, "And the king said to her, “Do not be afraid. What did you see?” And the woman said to Saul, “I saw a spirit ascending out of the earth.” So he said to her, “What is his form?” And she said, “An old man is coming up, and he is covered with a mantle.” And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground and bowed down" (1Samuel 28:13-14). The blue part I've emphasised tells us Saul perceived it to be Samuel. It was not Samuel.

Whoever it was that appeared to Saul through the medium (it was either a demon or Satan impersonating Samuel) was not Samuel or connected to God in any way because firstly, the devil does not have the power to resurrect anyone, much less a witch. Only God resurrects the dead. Secondly, Samuel said to Saul, "And tomorrow you and your sons will be with me" (1 Samuel 28:19). How could Saul who had grieved away the Spirit of God be sharing anything with a holy prophet of God? They certainly wouldn't be going to the same place. Thirdly, the message that "Samuel" gives has absolutely no hope in it. The messages that the Lord usually gives give warning and hope. It was a hopeless message. It really seems like the devil kicked Saul for the last time while he was down.

Also God does not communicate with or pass messages through mediums and others with familiar spirits. He communicates with and through His prophets and men of God. Saul had banned all mediums from Israel too when he was a man of God because he knew they were an abomination to God as it says in Leviticus 19:31 and Deuteronomy 18:9-12.

Saul could not repent once God withdrew any contact from him. The Holy Spirit who is God withdrew from Saul too. It is the Holy spirit that leads us to repent after all. Because he did not have God, Saul sought the medium instead of God. "And when they say to you, 'Seek those who are mediums and wizards, who whisper and mutter,' should not a people seek their God?" (Isaiah 8:19). The Bible is clear, we are too seek God when in need of counsel. That is why God couldn't have possibly communicated through the medium because He is not found there. If we need Him, we pray directly to Him not seek mediums, wizards and the like.
Not what the passage says but hey guess GOD can't bring Samuels spirit to speak to Saul (the medium couldn't) GOD doesn't hold sway over the living or dead? Ok seems you are the masterful scholar and read into the passage everything....i don't, i read it and hmm seems pretty straight forward to me. If it was a fake then it would have been stated. And what about absent from the body present with the lord or how about the man crying out to Abraham to let lazarus dip his finger for water so.....
 






sickgirl15

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Not according to the Bible. In the Bible Hell is real (not a state of mind) but it will happen later after all have been judged both the righteous and unrighteous (at different stages). And Hell will be right here on earth, once the fire has done it cleansing of sin, Satan and all the evil angels, the unrighteous, and this earth, this earth will be recreated, it will be a new earth where all the righteous will live with Christ forever and ever.
Nice fantasy!
 






phipps

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Not what the passage says but hey guess GOD can't bring Samuels spirit to speak to Saul (the medium couldn't) GOD doesn't hold sway over the living or dead? Ok seems you are the masterful scholar and read into the passage everything....i don't, i read it and hmm seems pretty straight forward to me. If it was a fake then it would have been stated. And what about absent from the body present with the lord or how about the man crying out to Abraham to let lazarus dip his finger for water so.....
The Word of God harmonises on every point but its us who misinterpret It. God would not contradict Himself and never has, ever. I am not a master scholar, never will be. Its about the truth of God's Word. As Christians we will never know or understand all God's Word but that that we know, we should be careful and pray that the Holy spirit reveals the truth of it to us. In the Bible God has ways in which He does things and as Christians who study the Bible we want to know Him and get close to Him and we can only do that with the undiluted truth of His Word. We have to be careful not to misunderstand scripture because that could lead to other scripture being misunderstood and not be in harmony and that could lead us away from God.

The medium is the one that apparently brought up "Samuel's" spirit? That is impossible and that is not how God raises the dead. Never only in spirit, they are raised fully physically and in spirit (in the Bible spirit in the context of the soul means breath of life). The Bible says, "The body without the spirit is dead” (James 2:26). Body and spirit can only exist together, never apart. Samuel was dead and therefore he could not have appeared without his body. That was clearly a demon who are evil angels.

People always quote the parable of Abraham (the rich man) and Lazarus when it comes to death but parables are not real. They are fiction that Jesus used to make a point. The point of that parable was not a description of what happens at death, it was about the Jews not sharing the gospel with the Gentiles. Jesus was telling the Jews that they might find that many Gentiles will be saved and sit down in the Kingdom with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and they will be cast out.

If the parable was about death, it would go against so many things the Bible says about death. In the parable of the rich man and Lazarus it is clear it was fiction and here is why:

- The parable portrays the rich man in “Hades” speaking directly to Lazarus in “Abraham’s bosom.” Can people in heaven have conversations with people in hell? For that matter, do people in heaven really watch people burning in hell? Not according to Jesus, who describes a “great gulf fixed” between the saved and the lost (Luke 16:26).

- The rich man wants Abraham to send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool his tongue. This must be symbolic because it can’t possibly happen physically. How much water could pass through the flames, and what help would it provide someone suffering in hell?

- Do the people who died with faith in Christ find their rest in Abraham’s literal bosom? How big is Abraham’s bosom? This must be a figurative expression, for we know that angels will gather the saints at the second coming of Christ ( see Matthew 24:30-31).

- Abraham and the rich man are said to be able to talk to each other. But would those in heaven really be able to see, hear, and talk to the lost blistering in hellfire? Would it really be paradise to see your lost loved ones burning and not be able to help them? Again, we can safely assume that Jesus was painting an illustration, not recording facts.

- If this story were literal, it would be hard to explain why the Bible says “in death there is no remembrance” (Psalm 6:5). Instead, those who die are asleep in the grave awaiting resurrection (1 Thessalonians 4:15-16). The Bible compares death to sleep over 50 times. See one example by Jesus in John 11:11-14.

I know I'm repeating myself but I have to, to make it clear that God does not communicate with or through mediums, wizards and the like who He has made it clear He abhors what they do because its the devil they work with. God bless.
 






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Maldarker

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The Word of God harmonises on every point but its us who misinterpret It. God would not contradict Himself and never has, ever. I am not a master scholar, never will be. Its about the truth of God's Word. As Christians we will never know or understand all God's Word but that that we know, we should be careful and pray that the Holy spirit reveals the truth of it to us. In the Bible God has ways in which He does things and as Christians who study the Bible we want to know Him and get close to Him and we can only do that with the undiluted truth of His Word. We have to be careful not to misunderstand scripture because that could lead to other scripture being misunderstood and not be in harmony and that could lead us away from God.

The medium is the one that apparently brought up "Samuel's" spirit? That is impossible and that is not how God raises the dead. Never only in spirit, they are raised fully physically and in spirit (in the Bible spirit in the context of the soul means breath of life). The Bible says, "The body without the spirit is dead” (James 2:26). Body and spirit can only exist together, never apart. Samuel was dead and therefore he could not have appeared without his body. That was clearly a demon who are evil angels.

People always quote the parable of Abraham (the rich man) and Lazarus when it comes to death but parables are not real. They are fiction that Jesus used to make a point. The point of that parable was not a description of what happens at death, it was about the Jews not sharing the gospel with the Gentiles. Jesus was telling the Jews that they might find that many Gentiles will be saved and sit down in the Kingdom with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and they will be cast out.

If the parable was about death, it would go against so many things the Bible says about death. In the parable of the rich man and Lazarus it is clear it was fiction and here is why:

- The parable portrays the rich man in “Hades” speaking directly to Lazarus in “Abraham’s bosom.” Can people in heaven have conversations with people in hell? For that matter, do people in heaven really watch people burning in hell? Not according to Jesus, who describes a “great gulf fixed” between the saved and the lost (Luke 16:26).

- The rich man wants Abraham to send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool his tongue. This must be symbolic because it can’t possibly happen physically. How much water could pass through the flames, and what help would it provide someone suffering in hell?

- Do the people who died with faith in Christ find their rest in Abraham’s literal bosom? How big is Abraham’s bosom? This must be a figurative expression, for we know that angels will gather the saints at the second coming of Christ ( see Matthew 24:30-31).

- Abraham and the rich man are said to be able to talk to each other. But would those in heaven really be able to see, hear, and talk to the lost blistering in hellfire? Would it really be paradise to see your lost loved ones burning and not be able to help them? Again, we can safely assume that Jesus was painting an illustration, not recording facts.

- If this story were literal, it would be hard to explain why the Bible says “in death there is no remembrance” (Psalm 6:5). Instead, those who die are asleep in the grave awaiting resurrection (1 Thessalonians 4:15-16). The Bible compares death to sleep over 50 times. See one example by Jesus in John 11:11-14.

I know I'm repeating myself but I have to, to make it clear that God does not communicate with or through mediums, wizards and the like who He has made it clear He abhors what they do because its the devil they work with. God bless.
Dude you are over reading it. Its a simple passage. Doesn't go against GOD's word. Look at the lesson and the reason for it. 1-Saul = medium bad when he was at the top. 2- Saul = medium good now in gutter in despair at bottom.....Who gave Saul the kingship? Samuel = prophet who by proxy so in essence GOD did. So who can take it away with no uncertainty? = GOD .... By taking it away with no uncertainty so no one can come and say or lay claim to kingship and judgement was laid out to him. Would you like to be Saul or be in that position? I wouldn't. Now read it again the whole story to that point if you but sometimes that helps. Who becomes king after this? The medium screams sees GOD then Samuel...Saul loses it all and GOD removes the anointing of kingship and HIS presence. And we know how Sauls end is....not good is it. (total despair with out GOD in your life not a good place to be. Lost souls with out JESUS same.)
 






phipps

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Dude you are over reading it. Its a simple passage. Doesn't go against GOD's word. Look at the lesson and the reason for it. 1-Saul = medium bad when he was at the top. 2- Saul = medium good now in gutter in despair at bottom.....Who gave Saul the kingship? Samuel = prophet who by proxy so in essence GOD did. So who can take it away with no uncertainty? = GOD .... By taking it away with no uncertainty so no one can come and say or lay claim to kingship and judgement was laid out to him. Would you like to be Saul or be in that position? I wouldn't. Now read it again the whole story to that point if you but sometimes that helps. Who becomes king after this? The medium screams sees GOD then Samuel...Saul loses it all and GOD removes the anointing of kingship and HIS presence. And we know how Sauls end is....not good is it. (total despair with out GOD in your life not a good place to be. Lost souls with out JESUS same.)
I'm not over reading anything. I'm stating the truth of the Bible. Once we understand what the Bible says in any subject it becomes easy to deduce what is of God and what isn't. How God works and what He would and wouldn't do. Plus He gave us brains to think and work things out with the help of the Holy Spirit of course. Some people did, not me.

There is also a lot of misinformation on this subject within Christendom too. There are Christians who believe when people die they are not fully dead and their spirits are alive somewhere separate from their physical bodies. Some believe they can communicate with the dead. Others believe that some people go to heaven when they die, some believe they go to purgatory where they have a chance to redeem themselves and go to heaven later. Its important for Christians to understand what the Bible says on the subject of death so we are not lied to. According o the Bible when a person dies, their spirit, or breath of life, returns to God (Ecclesiastes 12:7). God takes back the life (spirit, breath). So the dead cannot communicate with the living in any way.

It is not a dead Samuel who appeared to the witch because that is not possible. When God resurrects anyone they always have a body and breath of life (spirit). The body and spirit go hand in hand and cannot survive without each other. There is no such thing in the Bible as someone being half dead and half alive that someone can summon only their spirt. A person is either fully dead or fully alive. In the Bible when people are resurrected and when they will be resurrected at the end it is always physically and in spirit and will be at the end when Jesus returns for His people. Examples of resurrections in the Bible like Lazarus and Jesus and more prove this.

God took away Saul's kingship true, but He did not pass that information through the medium. Before Samuel died he had told Saul that God had taken the his kingship from him because of his disobedience. David had also already been anointed as king by then, and Israel had not humbled itself before the Lord, making it more than likely that they would be defeated by the Philistines. This is something that happened a lot. Israel disobeyed God then they were defeated by their enemies. So the demon who I think was Satan knew Saul was lost and what would happen to Israel. Demons are angels and are higher than human beings and know more than us. According to the Bible, Satan can communicate with people and present himself as an angel of light (Matthew 4:1-11; 2 Corinthians 11:14).

God has clearly defined the means of communication with Him. He communicates through His inspired Word, the Scriptures (2 Timothy 3:16; Psalm 119:89, 100-101), and through His prophets (Revelation 19:10). God never has and never will communicate through mediums, witches, wizards and people with familiar spirits. He abhors what they do and in the Old Testament He instructed that they be stoned to death.
 






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Maldarker

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Like said simple passage:(look at the lesson and the consequence of what happens in that sin.)
1. The Bible Says Samuel Appeared

The Bible says Samuel appeared (verses 14,15,16,20). This seems to settle the matter as to the identity of the spirit that spoke to Saul.

2. Description Of Samuel

The description of Samuel is authentic. The medium said that Samuel was wearing a robe of a prophet. This was the robe Saul had taken and ripped as Samuel declared the kingdom had been ripped out of his hand (1 Samuel 15:27-28). This would have convinced Saul that it was actually Samuel.

3. Reaction Of Medium

The medium reacted as though the spirit of Samuel actually appeared. She was terrified and cried out and the top of her voice. Her reaction suggests that his appearance was unexpected. This was something different than what usually happened when she practiced her art. She claimed she saw a god (Hebrew Elohim). This probably refers to the spirit of one who had died. This is an indication that she was not really expecting the genuine spirit of Samuel to appear. Whatever she had expected to happen was thwarted by Samuel's actual appearance.

4. Prior Exchange

The words of Samuel to Saul alluded to a prior conversation between the two. Only the real Samuel would have said this to Saul, not some impersonator,

5. Samuel The Prophet

Samuel's role as a prophet in Scripture is well-documented. The message he gave Saul with respect to his future is consistent with what we know about Samuel and his office as a prophet.

6. His Prediction Was Correct
Samuel said that Saul would join him the next day in the realm of the dead. Saul did die the next day. Consequently, the prediction was correct. Since only God knows the future, it must have been Samuel who spoke to Saul. It is not a contradiction that Saul fell upon his sword and killed himself. He was in the process of dying when he took his own life.

7. Another Unusual Method Of Communication By God
God also used an unusual method in communicating His message to Balaam (Numbers 22) - He spoke through a donkey. Therefore, we should not limit God's methods in speaking to humanity.

8. Saul Bowed To Samuel

The fact that Saul bowed in obeisance to Samuel showed that he understood it was really Samuel who had appeared.

9. Message Consistent
The message given was consistent with something God or Samuel could have said. There is nothing inconsistent in this message with God's nature or His plan for humanity.

10. Reading Of The Septuagint

The Septuagint, the Greek translation of the Hebrew Old Testament, adds these words after 1 Chronicles 10:13,14.

Saul asked counsel of her that had a familiar spirit to inquire of her, and Samuel made answer to him.
This addition to the text, gives further testimony to the belief that it was actually Samuel who appeared.

How Did It Happen?

If it was Samuel who appeared to Saul, then there are two basic possibilities as to how he appeared.

1. The Witch Actually Called Up Samuel By Demonic Power

2. Samuel Appeared By God's Design

1. Did The Witch Call Up Samuel?

It has been argued that the witch, through demonic power, actually called up Samuel from the realm of the dead. This would be a demonic miracle. The Bible warns us about the power of the Devil. Paul wrote.

The coming of the lawless one is apparent in the working of Satan, who uses all power, signs, lying wonders, and every kind of wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved (2 Thessalonians 2:9,10).
Jesus said.

Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' (Matthew 7: 22).
Response
Though Satan and his demons can perform deceiving signs, they are always under God's ultimate control. God is the one who has the authority over life and death.

Satan Can't Do Miracles

In addition, there is no evidence that Satan, or his demons, can perform actual miracles. Therefore the miracle of calling the spirit of Samuel from the realm of the righteous dead is not something that Satan, or his demons, have the power to do. Those who are in God's hands are protected from Satan's power.

Witchcraft Condemned

Finally, we see that witchcraft is condemned in this passage. Samuel said to Saul.

Samuel said, "Why do you consult me, now that the LORD has turned away from you and become your enemy? (1 Samuel 28:16).
All of these factors would indicate that Samuel was not called up by some demonic power.

2. Did Samuel Appear By God's Power?

Since it seems that Samuel did appear, and that it was not due to demonic intervention, the best answer seems to be that Samuel was permitted to appear by God's power. On this one occasion, God allowed Samuel to be brought from His presence to speak to Saul. It was His final word of judgment to the disobedient king.

Not Basis For Talking To Mediums

Whatever happened in this episode, it is not to be used as a basis of attempting to contact the dead through mediums. In the strongest of terms, God forbids any contact with mediums. The result of what happened to King Saul - his death the next day after he consulted a medium - serves as a further warning not to delve into this forbidden area.

Saul died because he was unfaithful to the LORD; he did not keep the word of the LORD and even consulted a medium for guidance (1 Chronicles 10:13).
Survival Beyond Grave

This episode does establish that at this time in Israel's history, there was a belief that there was life beyond the grave. In that life, people kept their personal identity. Samuel appeared in the same form in which he had died - as an old man wearing a robe.


There are many unanswered questions that surround this episode. Whatever the case may be, this story does not give any basis for the living to attempt to contact the dead. The fate of Saul gives further testimony of the bad things that happen when people attempt to contact those in the spirit world rather than the true and living God. (Like i said simple passage.)
 






phipps

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@Maldarker,

Like said simple passage:(look at the lesson and the consequence of what happens in that sin.)
1. The Bible Says Samuel Appeared
The Bible says Samuel appeared (verses 14,15,16,20). This seems to settle the matter as to the identity of the spirit that spoke to Saul.
The matter is not settled unless you ignore a lot about God and how He works according to His Word. The Bible says Saul perceived (do not ignore this word) it was Samuel. It wasn't Samuel. Saul was wrong in his perception and that's not surprising since God had abandoned Him.

Also lets think about this more deeply. The Bible tells us in 1 Samuel 28:6, "And when Saul inquired of the Lord, the Lord did not answer him, either by dreams or by Urim or by the prophets." This is how God communicated with Saul. Yet you're suggesting that God changed His mind and communicated with Saul anyway through a medium by having her summon Samuel's spirit? Why would God communicate through a dead prophet? God cut off all communication and had no intention of communicating with Saul again. So Saul became desperate and sought a medium, he knew very well what he was doing was wrong. God had banned them all because mediums communicate with demons not God. That is why there are many warnings for God's people not to go seek them.

The Bible says in 1 Chronicles 10:13-14, "So Saul died for his unfaithfulness which he had committed against the Lord, because he did not keep the word of the Lord, and also because he consulted a medium for guidance. But he did not inquire of the Lord; therefore He killed him, and turned the kingdom over to David the son of Jesse." If Saul should not have consulted a medium, why would God communicate with a dead prophet through the medium? Did God forget everything He had said about not consulting mediums and the like? God would not communicate through a medium because that would mean Saul had to go to her and God had told Israelites never to consult mediums. You are suggesting God made Saul sin. God does not even tempt us let alone make us sin. Plus do you know of a time when God has communicated through dead prophets or people in general ever?

2. Description Of Samuel
The description of Samuel is authentic. The medium said that Samuel was wearing a robe of a prophet. This was the robe Saul had taken and ripped as Samuel declared the kingdom had been ripped out of his hand (1 Samuel 15:27-28). This would have convinced Saul that it was actually Samuel.
A demon or the devil himself was wearing a mantle but Saul could not see the fake Samuel. He asked the medium in I Samuel 28:14, "What is his form?” So he did not see the mantle that was worn by the demon or the devil. As soon as he was told that the apparition was wearing a mantle, Saul perceived it was Samuel based on the description given to him by the medium (1 Samuel 28:13-14). And I know I keep repeating myself but the dead cannot communicate with the living and their thoughts have perished. God does not and has never communicated through dead prophets and people in general. Because they are dead in their graves and know nothing. Nor does the devil and his evil angels or mediums have the power to summon or resurrect dead people. No created being and that includes evil and good angels can summon or resurrect the dead. Only God can give life. He is the only One who has power over life and death.

3. Reaction Of Medium
The medium reacted as though the spirit of Samuel actually appeared. She was terrified and cried out and the top of her voice. Her reaction suggests that his appearance was unexpected. This was something different than what usually happened when she practiced her art. She claimed she saw a god (Hebrew Elohim). This probably refers to the spirit of one who had died. This is an indication that she was not really expecting the genuine spirit of Samuel to appear. Whatever she had expected to happen was thwarted by Samuel's actual appearance.
The Bible doesn't tell us why the medium reacted the way she did but the demon most definitely told her that it was Saul who came to her because she says, "Why have you deceived me? For you are Saul!” Remember Saul was in disguise and she didn't know until she summoned the demon who he was.

The KJV says, "And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth." The Bible has never described the God of heaven and creator of this earth like that. God is never written of in plural in the Bible. He is not gods nor would He ever ascend out of the earth. That was a not a description of Elohim clearly.

I repeat, God does not resurrect only the spirit of a person when He resurrects people. They always are resurrected in body and spirit. If anyone appears only in spirit it is a demon. Saul could not see this spirit only the medium could. Study your Bible on this subject and you will see that this is the truth.

4. Prior Exchange
The words of Samuel to Saul alluded to a prior conversation between the two. Only the real Samuel would have said this to Saul, not some impersonator,
That is because a demon or Satan himself masqueraded as Samuel so he had to pretend as if he had ever had prior communication with Saul. He knew of the communication between Samuel and Saul. That was his purpose, to deceive Saul. The devil is an angel and knows a lot more than we do.

5. Samuel The Prophet
Samuel's role as a prophet in Scripture is well-documented. The message he gave Saul with respect to his future is consistent with what we know about Samuel and his office as a prophet.
But Samuel was dead. Why would God communicate through a dead prophet, didn't He have other prophets who were alive at the time? And why would God let a medium who were banned in Israel and well known to use demonic or satanic powers?

Yes Samuel's purpose was well documented and he was a prophet of God and lived righteously. One of the ways God spoke to Saul was through Samuel. It was Samuel who anointed David as the next king of Israel before he died as written of in 1 Samuel 16. Why did God ask Samuel to anoint David? Because of Saul's disobedience to Him as Samuel told Saul.

6. His Prediction Was Correct
Samuel said that Saul would join him the next day in the realm of the dead. Saul did die the next day. Consequently, the prediction was correct. Since only God knows the future, it must have been Samuel who spoke to Saul. It is not a contradiction that Saul fell upon his sword and killed himself. He was in the process of dying when he took his own life.
The message of the evil spirit that impersonated Samuel was true for the most part, but the demon lied when it said, “tomorrow you and your sons will be with me.” Samuel was dead and so its impossible he said that but even though he spoke to Saul (he didn't), Saul could not be with Samuel who was a holy prophet of God or share anything with him after he died. They were on two different sides, Samuel on God's side and Saul sadly on the devil's side.

The message given to Saul did not require visionary powers. David had already been anointed as king of Israel, and Satan knew what was going to happen to Saul because God had cut off all communication with him. There was no hope, no help, no encouragement. Saul collapsed on the floor of the medium’s cave and when he revived a little he had only enough energy to eat at the urging of the medium and his two helpers. The sad result of Saul’s visit to the witch of Endor was not repentance, confession of sin, and life (the Holy Spirit that leads us to do those things had departed from him) but despair, discouragement, and death.

7. Another Unusual Method Of Communication By God
God also used an unusual method in communicating His message to Balaam (Numbers 22) - He spoke through a donkey. Therefore, we should not limit God's methods in speaking to humanity.
God does not and never has communicated through mediums, witches, and people with familiar spirits and I explained why in a previous post. He doesn't communicate through dead prophets either. God communicated/communicates through His prophets (that are alive) and through His Word the Bible.

In Balaam's case that was a donkey not a medium. Donkeys are not mediums or spiritists and don't commune with evil spirits do they? Nor did God say people should be stoned if they talked with a talking donkey. Yes it was unusual but it wasn't wrong. God communicating through a medium would be very wrong and would imply God makes exceptions to certain sins. Thankfully He doesn't as the Bible clearly teaches.

8. Saul Bowed To Samuel
The fact that Saul bowed in obeisance to Samuel showed that he understood it was really Samuel who had appeared.
Saul bowed to what he perceived was Samuel. He bowed to a demon who was most likely Satan himself. Remember God had cut off all contact with Saul and he was desperate to communicate with anyone that he went to a medium because he was afraid after he saw the army of the Philistines and God wasn't telling him what to do.

9. Message Consistent
The message given was consistent with something God or Samuel could have said. There is nothing inconsistent in this message with God's nature or His plan for humanity.
First of all Saul had Rejected Samuel's counsel especially when it came to the last thing Saul did by disobeying God in punishing and completely destroying the Amalekites. The next time Samuel saw Saul, he told Him God had rejected him as king of Israel.

Secondly, the way the message was relayed to Saul was not how God relays messages as I explained in a previous response to you. It was a taunting message that the demon most likely Satan enjoyed giving to Saul. He would have been happy that Saul was lost.
Like I said above, the message did not require visionary powers. It was obvious what was going to happen to Saul. The purpose of the message was not to lead Saul to repentance, but to lead him on to ruin, this is not the work of God, but of Satan. It was a hopeless message. It is Satan that leads people to commit suicide.

10. Reading Of The Septuagint
The Septuagint, the Greek translation of the Hebrew Old Testament, adds these words after 1 Chronicles 10:13,14.



This addition to the text, gives further testimony to the belief that it was actually Samuel who appeared.

How Did It Happen?

If it was Samuel who appeared to Saul, then there are two basic possibilities as to how he appeared.

1. The Witch Actually Called Up Samuel By Demonic Power
The devil nor the witch had and never will have the power or authority to summon/resurrect the dead not even partially. Nor did God lend them His power to do so on that day or any other day. The Bible tells us, "I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death" (Revelation 1:18). Only God can resurrect the dead so the medium most definitely did not summon Samuel. It clearly was an evil spirit that appeared to her. Dead people cannot do anything on earth after they die and they cannot communicate with the living. I have shown you actual scripture that says so. Its not me saying this, its the Word of God. Remember God does not contradict Himself and His Word.

2. Samuel Appeared By God's Design
Samuel was dead. Saul would have been able to see him if God had resurrected him because when God resurrects people they are resurrected fully in body and spirit. Never partially. God would never do anything through mediums either.

1. Did The Witch Call Up Samuel?
It has been argued that the witch, through demonic power, actually called up Samuel from the realm of the dead. This would be a demonic miracle. The Bible warns us about the power of the Devil. Paul wrote.

The coming of the lawless one is apparent in the working of Satan, who uses all power, signs, lying wonders, and every kind of wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved (2 Thessalonians 2:9,10).
While the devil has some powers and he uses them and will use them at the end of time to deceive people, he is not and never will be more powerful than God. Remember the devil is a created being and has limited powers compared to God. There are certain things only God can do and one of them is resurrecting the dead. The devil cannot and never will be able to resurrect the dead. He does not have that power or authority. Satan did not have a fluke and somehow managed this time to resurrect Samuel in spirit only. It is impossible for him to do that. All the devil and his demons can do is present a counterfeit. They are good at that. Counterfeiting things only God can do.

Jesus said.

Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' (Matthew 7: 22).
If we read from verse 21-23 it says, "Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’" Many "Christians" do many things in the name of God but their hearts are unconverted and they do not do God's will. They do what feels right to them but do not obey God's Word completely. Jesus will tell those people "depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’" It is lawlessness not to obey God completely as Jesus did when He was here on earth. He is our example.

Though Satan and his demons can perform deceiving signs, they are always under God's ultimate control. God is the one who has the authority over life and death
That is why its impossible that the medium summoned Samuel because neither she nor the devil can resurrect the dead fully or partially. They do not have that power or authority and God most definitely did not lend it to them on that day or any other day. Now there are prophets and disciples of God all throughout the Bible who resurrected dead people through the power of God including Jesus, and the people were resurrected fully with their bodies and spirits.

Satan Can't Do Miracles
In addition, there is no evidence that Satan, or his demons, can perform actual miracles. Therefore the miracle of calling the spirit of Samuel from the realm of the righteous dead is not something that Satan, or his demons, have the power to do. Those who are in God's hands are protected from Satan's power.
Then you're saying the Bible is lying. The Bible clearly says the devil and demons can and will perform miracles. Here are a few verses:

2 Corinthians 11:14, "And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light."

Revelation 16:14, "For they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty."

Witchcraft Condemned
Finally, we see that witchcraft is condemned in this passage. Samuel said to Saul.

Samuel said, "Why do you consult me, now that the LORD has turned away from you and become your enemy? (1 Samuel 28:16).

All of these factors would indicate that Samuel was not called up by some demonic power.
Actually they do prove that fake Samuel/demon was summoned by demonic power. First the medium was a not person of God and was actually banned in Israel because God had said they should be stoned to death. Why? Because everything they stood/stand for was against God and His Word (see Deuteronomy 18:10-15, Isaiah 47:13-14).

Secondly, God would not communicate through a dead prophet. God always communicates through people who are very much alive.

And thirdly, if one goes to a medium, the only power they can use is demonic or satanic power. They can't use power from God because they are not people of God. So the only power the medium used was demonic power which she used to summon up a demon that impersonated Samuel. Poor Saul who was desperate, perceived it was Samuel. None of it had anything to do with God.

2. Did Samuel Appear By God's Power?
Since it seems that Samuel did appear, and that it was not due to demonic intervention, the best answer seems to be that Samuel was permitted to appear by God's power. On this one occasion, God allowed Samuel to be brought from His presence to speak to Saul. It was His final word of judgment to the disobedient king.
God never has and never will permit anything He does to go through mediums and spiritists who commune with demons/evil spirits. God does not entertain or compromise with anything to do with the devil. Mediums cannot use any power from God either to summon or resurrect anyone. The Bible says, "For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness? And what accord has Christ with Belial? Or what part has a believer with an unbeliever?" (2 Corinthians 6:14-15). God is light and has no dealings with darkness at all.

I've also shown you how God resurrects people and how He will when Christ returns the second time for His people. He resurrects them in body and spirit and never partially. So its impossible that Samuel was resurrected partially to speak to Saul through a medium. That is not how God's way at all. God does not deal with evil at all. Light has no dealings with darkness. God does not make exception to sin and never has or will. God does not ever compromise with sin or lead people to sin. So it was not Samuel that gave Saul that message. By now you should know who did.

Not Basis For Talking To Mediums
Whatever happened in this episode, it is not to be used as a basis of attempting to contact the dead through mediums. In the strongest of terms, God forbids any contact with mediums. The result of what happened to King Saul - his death the next day after he consulted a medium - serves as a further warning not to delve into this forbidden area.
This story proves there is never a time God makes an exception of going to and seeking people who commune with evil spirits. 1 Chronicles 10:13 makes that very clear. Saul did not keep the Word of the Lord and consulted a medium. We are all supposed to keep the Word of the Lord always and never consult with mediums. The warnings all the way from the Old Testament to this day against mediums and people with familiar spirits and any who seek information from the dead are still true today. The dead are dead. The dead were dead then and the dead are dead now. Anyone who seeks information from them, whether by or through mediums, psychics, Ouija boards, horoscopes, or spiritists of any kind, is really talking with demons. Just as Saul was really talking with a demon. Our safety lies only in seeking wisdom from God.

When God stopped communicating with Saul the last time before he took his own life, it was for good sadly and He did not change His mind and communicate with Saul through the medium and a demon. Even if God changed His mind (He never does), He would never communicate through a medium and a dead prophet. There is never a time where God excuses sin and He certainly would never do something He Himself said was wrong and lead man to sin.

Survival Beyond Grave
This episode does establish that at this time in Israel's history, there was a belief that there was life beyond the grave. In that life, people kept their personal identity. Samuel appeared in the same form in which he had died - as an old man wearing a robe.
It doesn't matter what the people of Israel believed, if it was against God's Word it was wrong and God would certainly not accommodate them in their wrong beliefs. In fact God always warned the Israelites not to do what the heathen do and sacrifice to the dead and obviously He told them not to consult with mediums and the likes. As you know Israel did do those things and more and God punished them over and over. God never excused Israel's disobedience in anything.

If Samuel appeared in the same form in which he died, he would have a physical body too that Saul would be able to see. Saul could not even see the mantle that the fake Samuel wore could he? As I wrote above, God would not and never has compromised with sin nor lead anyone to sin. Neither would He sin Himself just to get a message to Saul. God has never sinned and never will. He would never go against His Word and do something that He said was wrong.

There are many unanswered questions that surround this episode. Whatever the case may be, this story does not give any basis for the living to attempt to contact the dead. The fate of Saul gives further testimony of the bad things that happen when people attempt to contact those in the spirit world rather than the true and living God. (Like i said simple passage.)
There maybe some unanswered questions in this story but on the question on who spoke to Saul through the medium? The answer is very clear unless you choose to ignore a lot of what the Bible teaches some of which I've posted here in this thread in response to you.

When asked by the fake Samuel why he was summoned, Saul responded, "...God has departed from me and does not answer me anymore, neither by prophets nor by dreams. Therefore I have called you, that you may reveal to me what I should do” (1 Samuel 28:15). Notice what he said about the prophets. Saul said God did not answer him by prophets. The fake Samuel then replied in verse 16, "So why do you ask me, seeing the Lord has departed from you and has become your enemy?" If God would not answer Saul by prophets, what made him think he was talking to a prophet? Do you think a dead prophet didn't count? The fake Samuel/demon was actually saying, "If God does not answer you by prophets, then what makes you think you are speaking to one now?" The fact that Saul understood that God would not communicate with him should make it clear beyond reasonable doubt that God would not do so through a medium and certainly not through a dead prophet either. And I repeat, according to the Bible the dead know nothing and cannot communicate with the dead and rest in the grave until the second coming of Christ.

Saul sought council from a witch. This witch of Endor summoned up a demon, but it was certainly not Samuel. A study of the whole Bible on the subject of death (that's how to study subject in the Bible because a subject is not written of in one place) will reveal that it could not have been anything else but a demon.

The word of God makes it clear that all spiritualism is the the work of demonic, satanic forces and there is never any exception even for Him.

1 Samuel 28:14, "So he said to her, “What is his form?” And she said, “An old man is coming up, and he is covered with a mantle.” And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground and bowed down."

I pray that God will reveal the truth to you on this subject. Maybe He has done that through me. God bless.
 






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Maldarker

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@Maldarker,

Like said simple passage:(look at the lesson and the consequence of what happens in that sin.)

The matter is not settled unless you ignore a lot about God and how He works according to His Word. The Bible says Saul perceived (do not ignore this word) it was Samuel. It wasn't Samuel. Saul was wrong in his perception and that's not surprising since God had abandoned Him.

Also lets think about this more deeply. The Bible tells us in 1 Samuel 28:6, "And when Saul inquired of the Lord, the Lord did not answer him, either by dreams or by Urim or by the prophets." This is how God communicated with Saul. Yet you're suggesting that God changed His mind and communicated with Saul anyway through a medium by having her summon Samuel's spirit? Why would God communicate through a dead prophet? God cut off all communication and had no intention of communicating with Saul again. So Saul became desperate and sought a medium, he knew very well what he was doing was wrong. God had banned them all because mediums communicate with demons not God. That is why there are many warnings for God's people not to go seek them.

The Bible says in 1 Chronicles 10:13-14, "So Saul died for his unfaithfulness which he had committed against the Lord, because he did not keep the word of the Lord, and also because he consulted a medium for guidance. But he did not inquire of the Lord; therefore He killed him, and turned the kingdom over to David the son of Jesse." If Saul should not have consulted a medium, why would God communicate with a dead prophet through the medium? Did God forget everything He had said about not consulting mediums and the like? God would not communicate through a medium because that would mean Saul had to go to her and God had told Israelites never to consult mediums. You are suggesting God made Saul sin. God does not even tempt us let alone make us sin. Plus do you know of a time when God has communicated through dead prophets or people in general ever?


A demon or the devil himself was wearing a mantle but Saul could not see the fake Samuel. He asked the medium in I Samuel 28:14, "What is his form?” So he did not see the mantle that was worn by the demon or the devil. As soon as he was told that the apparition was wearing a mantle, Saul perceived it was Samuel based on the description given to him by the medium (1 Samuel 28:13-14). And I know I keep repeating myself but the dead cannot communicate with the living and their thoughts have perished. God does not and has never communicated through dead prophets and people in general. Because they are dead in their graves and know nothing. Nor does the devil and his evil angels or mediums have the power to summon or resurrect dead people. No created being and that includes evil and good angels can summon or resurrect the dead. Only God can give life. He is the only One who has power over life and death.


The Bible doesn't tell us why the medium reacted the way she did but the demon most definitely told her that it was Saul who came to her because she says, "Why have you deceived me? For you are Saul!” Remember Saul was in disguise and she didn't know until she summoned the demon who he was.

The KJV says, "And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth." The Bible has never described the God of heaven and creator of this earth like that. God is never written of in plural in the Bible. He is not gods nor would He ever ascend out of the earth.

I repeat, God does not resurrect only the spirit of a person when He resurrects people. They always are resurrected in body and spirit. If anyone appears only in spirit it is a demon. Saul could not see this spirit only the medium could. Study your Bible on this subject and you will see that this is the truth.


That is because a demon or Satan himself masqueraded as Samuel so he had to pretend as if he had ever had prior communication with Saul. He knew of the communication between Samuel and Saul. That was his purpose, to deceive Saul. The devil is an angel and knows a lot more than we do.


But Samuel was dead. Why would God communicate through a dead prophet, didn't He have other prophets who were alive at the time? And why would God let a medium who were banned in Israel and well known to use demonic or satanic powers?

Yes Samuel's purpose was well documented and he was a prophet of God and lived righteously. One of the ways God spoke to Saul was through Samuel. It was Samuel who anointed David as the next king of Israel before he died as written of in 1 Samuel 16. Why did God ask Samuel to anoint David? Because of Saul's disobedience to Him as Samuel told Saul.


The message of the evil spirit that impersonated Samuel was true for the most part, but the demon lied when it said, “tomorrow you and your sons will be with me.” Samuel was dead and so its impossible he said that but even though he spoke to Saul (he didn't), Saul could not be with Samuel who was a holy prophet of God or share anything with him after he died. They were on two different sides, Samuel on God's side and Saul sadly on the devil's side.

The message given to Saul did not require visionary powers. David had already been anointed as king of Israel, and Satan knew what was going to happen Saul because God had cut off all communication with him. There was no hope, no help, no encouragement. Saul collapsed on the floor of the medium’s cave and when he revived a little he had only enough energy to eat at the urging of the medium and his two helpers. The sad result of Saul’s visit to the witch of Endor was not repentance, confession of sin, and life (the Holy Spirit that leads us to do those things had departed from him) but despair, discouragement, and death.


God does not and never has communicated through mediums, witches, and people with familiar spirits and I explained why in previous post. He doesn't communicate through dead prophets either. God communicated/communicates through His prophets (that are alive) and through His Word the Bible.

In Balaam's case that was a donkey not a medium. Donkeys are not mediums or spiritists and don't commune with evil spirits do they? Nor did God say people should be stoned if they talked with a talking donkey. Yes it was unusual but it wasn't wrong. God communicating through a medium would be very wrong and would imply God makes exceptions to certain sins. Thankfully He doesn't as the Bible clearly teaches.


Saul bowed to what he perceived was Samuel. He bowed to a demon who was most likely Satan himself. Remember God had cut off all contact with Saul and he was desperate to communicate with anyone that he went to a medium because he was afraid after he saw the army of the Philistines and God wasn't telling him what to do.


First of all Saul had Rejected Samuel's counsel especially when it came to the last thing Saul did by disobeying God in punishing and completely destroying the Amalekites. The next time Samuel saw Saul, he told Him God had rejected him as king of Israel.

Secondly, the way the message was relayed to Saul was not how God relays messages as I explained in a previous response to you. It was a taunting message that the demon most likely Satan enjoyed giving to Saul. He would have been happy that Saul was lost.
Like I said above, the message did not require visionary powers. It was obvious what was going to happen to Saul. The purpose of the message was not to lead Saul to repentance, but to lead him on to ruin, this is not the work of God, but of Satan. It was a hopeless message. It is Satan that leads people to commit suicide.


The devil nor the witch had the power or authority to summon/resurrect the dead not even partially. Nor did God lend them His power to do so on that day or any other day. The Bible tells us, "I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death" (Revelation 1:18). Only God can resurrect the dead so the medium most definitely did not summon Samuel. It clearly was an evil spirit that appeared to her. Dead people cannot do anything on earth after they die and they cannot communicate with the living. I have shown you actual scripture that says so. Its not me saying this, its the Word of God. Remember God does not contradict Himself and His Word.


Samuel was dead. Saul would have been able to see him if God had resurrect him because when God resurrects people they are resurrected fully in body and spirit. Never partially. God would never do anything through mediums either.


While the devil has some powers and he uses them and will use them at the end of time to deceive people, he is not and never will be more powerful than God. Remember the devil is a created being and has limited powers compared to God. There are certain things only God can do and one of them is resurrecting the dead. The devil cannot and never will be able to resurrect the dead. He does not have that power or authority. Satan did not have a fluke and somehow managed this time to resurrect Samuel in spirit only. It is impossible for him to do that. All the devil and his demons can do is present a counterfeit. They are good at that. Counterfeiting things only God can do.


If we read from verse 21-23 it says, "Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’" Many "Christians" do many things in the name of God but their hearts are unconverted and they do not do God's will. They do what feels right to them but do not obey God's Word completely. Jesus will tell those people "depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’" It is lawlessness not to obey God completely as Jesus did when He was here on earth. He is our example.


That is why its impossible that the medium summoned Samuel because neither she nor the devil can resurrect the dead fully or partially. They do not have that power or authority and God most definitely did not lend it to them on that day or any other day. Now there are prophets and disciples of God all throughout the Bible who resurrected dead people through the power of God including Jesus, and the people were resurrected fully with their bodies and spirits.


Then you're saying the Bible is lying. The Bible clearly says the devil and demons can and will perform miracles. Here are a few verses:

2 Corinthians 11:14, "And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light."

Revelation 16:14, "For they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty."



Actually they do prove that fake Samuel/demon was summoned by demonic power. First the medium was a not person of God and was actually banned in Israel because God had said they should be stoned to death. Why? Because everything they stood/stand for was against God and His Word (see Deuteronomy 18:10-15, Isaiah 47:13-14).

Secondly, God would not communicate through a dead prophet. God always communicates through people who are very much alive.

And thirdly, if one goes to a medium, the only power they can use is demonic or satanic power. They can't use power from God because they are not people of God. So the only power the medium used was demonic power which she used to summon up a demon that impersonated Samuel. None of it had anything to do with God.


God never has and never will permit anything He does to go through mediums and spiritists who commune with demons/evil spirits. God does not entertain or compromise with anything to do with devil. Mediums cannot use any power from God either to summon or resurrect anyone. The Bible says, "For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness? And what accord has Christ with Belial? Or what part has a believer with an unbeliever?" (2 Corinthians 6:14-15). God is light and has no dealings with darkness at all.

I've also shown you how God resurrects people and how He will when Christ returns the second time for His people. He resurrects them in body and spirit and never partially. So its impossible that Samuel was resurrected partially to speak to Saul through a medium. That is not how God's way at all. God does not deal with evil at all. Light has no dealings with darkness. God does not make exception to sin and never has or will. God does not ever compromise with sin or lead people to sin. So it was not Samuel that gave Saul that message. By now you should know who did.


This story proves there is never a time God makes an exception of going to and seeking people who commune with evil spirits. 1 Chronicles 10:13 makes that very clear. Saul did not keep the Word of the Lord and consulted a medium. We are all supposed to keep the Word of the Lord always and never consult with mediums. The warnings all the way from the Old Testament to this day against mediums and people with familiar spirits and any who seek information from the dead are still true today. The dead are dead. The dead were dead then and the dead are dead now. Anyone who seeks information from them, whether by or through mediums, psychics, Ouija boards. horoscopes, or spiritists of any kind, is really talking with demons. Just as Saul was really talking with a demon. Our safety lies only in seeking wisdom from God.

When God stopped communicating with Saul the last time before he took his own life, it was for good sadly and He did not change His mind and communicate with Saul through the medium and a demon. Even if God changed His mind (He never does), He would never communicate through a medium and a dead prophet. There is never a time where God excuses sin and He certainly would never do something He Himself said was wrong and lead man to sin.


It doesn't matter what the people of Israel believed, if it was against God's Word it was wrong and God would certainly not accommodate them in their wrong beliefs. In fact God always warned the Israelites not to do what the heathen do and sacrifice to the dead and obviously He told them not to consult with mediums and the likes. As you know Israel did do those things and more and God punished them over and over. God never excused Israel's disobedience in anything.

If Samuel appeared in the same form in which he died, he would have a physical body too that Saul would be able to see. Saul could not even see the mantle that the fake Samuel wore could he? As I wrote above, God would not and never has compromised with sin nor lead anyone to sin. Neither would He sin Himself just to get a message to Saul. God has never sinned and never will. He would never go against His Word and do something that He said was wrong.


There maybe some unanswered questions in this story but on the question on who spoke to Saul through the medium? The answer is very clear unless you choose to ignore a lot of what the Bible teaches some of which I've posted here in this thread in response to you.

When asked by the fake Samuel why he was summoned, Saul responded, "...God has departed from me and does not answer me anymore, neither by prophets nor by dreams. Therefore I have called you, that you may reveal to me what I should do” (1 Samuel 28:15). Notice what he said about the prophets. Saul said God did not answer him by prophets. The fake Samuel then replied in verse 16, "So why do you ask me, seeing the Lord has departed from you and has become your enemy?" If God would not answer Saul by prophets, what made him think he was talking to a prophet? Do you think a dead prophet didn't count? The fake Samuel/demon was actually saying, "If God does not answer you by prophets, then what makes you think you are speaking to one now?" The fact that Saul understood that God would not communicate with him should make it clear beyond reasonable doubt that God would not do so through a medium and certainly not through a dead prophet either. And I repeat, according to the Bible the dead know nothing and cannot communicate with the dead and rest in the grave until the second coming of Christ.

Saul sought council from a witch. This witch of Endor summoned up a demon, but it was certainly not Samuel. A study of the whole Bible on the subject of death (that's how to study subject in the Bible because a subject is not written of in one place) will reveal that it could not have been anything else but a demon.

The word of God makes it clear that all spiritualism is the the work of demonic, satanic forces and there is never any exception even for Him.

I pray that God will reveal the truth to you on this subject. Maybe He has done that through me. God bless.
Ugh dude seriously...you have the issue with the passage i see it simple what ever not going to add to it like you and see it for the lesson that it is... but will say this...Saul as an example of what this whole post string is about is not a good one He wasn't a repenting heart at the end he's lost never repented....so not a christian and thus not a good example. And since your the bible passage guy why not tell everyone exactly where saul is and will be
 






Alanantic

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Ugh dude seriously...you have the issue with the passage i see it simple what ever not going to add to it like you and see it for the lesson that it is... but will say this...Saul as an example of what this whole post string is about is not a good one He wasn't a repenting heart at the end he's lost never repented....so not a christian and thus not a good example. And since your the bible passage guy why not tell everyone exactly where saul is and will be
I think he's in the past and not worth dwelling on.
 






Alanantic

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I'm thinking so to.
This forum seems to spend 90% of their time arguing over minutia. People wave their scripture at each other, in some vain hope that they'll change the minds of the other who thinks exactly the same thing. Is this some sort of war where some religion will eventually win out? I think Time's getting short and medieval ways of thinking and praising iron age gods isn't working anymore. We need to drop the flags/religions and work together instead.
 






phipps

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I know this thread is about if Christians who commit suicide will go to hell (then it veered off into a separate discussion) but I feel I should post here what to do if we suspect someone we know is suicidal. Most of these are not my own words or suggestions.


It could be anyone

Anyone can be thinking of suicide even a loved one or a friend who might “seem fine.” But several experiences in a person’s life may increase their risk.

Risk factors include having a history of abuse, depression, alcohol or other substance misuse, or a previous suicide attempt. Having recently experienced personal loss—such as loss of a relationship, job or physical health—is another risk factor.


There are warning signs of suicide

Even though some groups are at higher risk for suicide, it can happen to the people we least expect. It’s good to know what the warning signs are so that you can get help before it’s too late.

People having suicidal thoughts may show a number of behaviours, including any of the following:

- Talking about death a lot or saying they want to die.

- Talking about feeling trapped, with no way out of a difficult situation.

- Claiming to be a burden to others.

- Talking about feeling empty, hopeless or having no reason to live.

- Making a suicide plan—they may search online for ways to kill themselves, or try to obtain something to harm themselves with, such as a rope or a gun or storing up medication.

- Giving away important possessions.

- Starting to use drugs or alcohol more often.

- Withdrawing from family or friends.

- Telling loved ones goodbye.

Signs that something is wrong can sometimes be more difficult to spot. Such as a cheeriness which may seem fake to you. Or they may joke about their emotions. Such as saying something quite alarming that is disguised as a joke. Don’t ignore your gut feeling if you are concerned about someone. Some people won’t be open about how they are feeling.


You can help or try to at least

If you think a family member, a friend or acquaintance is considering suicide, here are some immediate steps you can take to help:

- Pray for the person and ask God to deliver them out of that dark place they are in and to show them they are still loved by Him and their life is precious. Also pray for God to show you how to support the person.

- Ask the person if he or she is suicidal. Be blunt and ask. Don’t be afraid to ask the person if they are thinking of killing themselves. Contrary to what you may have heard, asking this question does not make them more likely to end their life. Also talking about suicide reduces the stigma and allows someone to open up and tell you how they feel.

- Get the person to talk about his or her plans. Listen carefully. Try to understand and acknowledge what they’re going through without judging them.

- Small gestures such as saying ‘hello’ or asking, ‘how are you today?’ can sometimes make a big difference to how someone is feeling.

- Stay with the person who is suicidal or arrange with someone to stay until the crisis is over.

- Encourage the person to get in touch with a suicide prevention centre, a crisis hotline, charities or self-help. Provide phone numbers. Or call the number yourself.

- Encourage the person to get professional counselling; offer to accompany him or her.

- If someone is in crisis you may need to get help from mental health services or the emergency services.

- Try to eliminate the means for carrying out such a suicide plan. For example, if the loved one you’re concerned about lives with you, you may be able to safely remove or lock up any firearms, poisons, medicines or other lethal items in the home.

Helping someone with suicidal thoughts is likely to have a big impact on you. Find out what support is available to you and always pray.

You may try to help someone who is suicidal and they might still try to take their life and may even succeed, this is not your fault.

Also most suicides are preceded by warning signs, whether verbal or behavioural, but some suicides occur without warning.
 






Maldarker

Established
Joined
Mar 23, 2021
Messages
236
This forum seems to spend 90% of their time arguing over minutia. People wave their scripture at each other, in some vain hope that they'll change the minds of the other who thinks exactly the same thing. Is this some sort of war where some religion will eventually win out? I think Time's getting short and medieval ways of thinking and praising iron age gods isn't working anymore. We need to drop the flags/religions and work together instead.
Your right this is the problem...
 






phipps

Star
Joined
Dec 27, 2017
Messages
2,251
Cases of Suicide and attempted suicide in the Bible:

Abimelech, mortally wounded by a millstone thrown at him by a woman, asked his armour-bearer to kill him to escape shame (Judges 9:54).

Saul, after being seriously wounded in battle, killed himself (1 Samuel 31:4). Seeing what the king did, the armour-bearer “he also fell on his sword, and died with him” (verse 5). This was motivated by fear of what the enemy would do to them.

Ahithophel, one of the counsellors of king Absalom, hanged himself after realizing that the king had rejected his advice (2 Samuel 17:23).

Zimri became king after a coup d’état, but realizing that the people did not support him he went into “that he went into the citadel of the king’s house and burned the king’s house down upon himself with fire, and died,” killing himself (1 Kings 16:18).

Judas was so emotionally disturbed after betraying Jesus that he hanged himself (Matthew 27:5).

After the earthquake the Philippian jailer concluded that the prisoners had escaped, and out of fear attempted to kill himself, but Paul persuaded him to the contrary (Acts 16:26-28).
 






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