Do all religions lead us to God?

[Red Sky at Morning]

@Daze

You rightly refer to the fact that this kind of discussion has been a long standing tug of war on this forum.

I am put in mind of the Parable of the Sower - the first seed that was mentioned was that “thrown by the wayside”. This was the path that the farmer and others walked on, and which had become hard, pressed down and near impenetrable to the seed. In the same way, repeated rejection of the message of Jesus leads to a hardening of the heart and to long threads that don’t go anywhere.

Muslims rightly understand that the Trinity is the doctrine that they need to attack as if Jesus is less than God (and by that, I don’t mean in his humanity) then the doctrine of the Atonement is destroyed, Jesus is no longer sufficient as a mediator between Man and God (how could you comprehend an infinite being or claim that if they had “seen you they have seen the Father”) and the coming judgement and rulership by Jesus contradicted (after all, what would give Him the right).

This discussion is as old as Arius and Athanasius. Before Islam had much of a voice in the UK, for mss as my years the Jehovah’s Witnesses put forth a similar anti-trinitarian polemic against Christianity.

If the Trinity were simple or applied to other things we can refer to, it would not be so difficult, but to take an attribute that truly (if it is true) applies only to God and expect it to be fully comprehensible or supportable from our own human experience is rather naive.

I alluded to the character and attributes of God earlier. It’s a substantial study and one that is truly impossible to “force-feed” anyone who does not want it to be true. Nonetheless, it presents the best case I have come across in support of the Trinity.

Nowhere in the Bible is the word “Trinity” mentioned (but neither is the word “Bible” ;-)

The Trinity is a doctrine that formalised the picture that emerged of the nature of God from the study of the Bible.

In a nutshell, the attributes of God (to which no mere human could attain) are applied to all three members of the Trinity, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. To understand what the Bible teaches about each of these attributes, you need to do the work and dig deep. One thing about digging deep is that you sometimes find treasure!

I repost here a series of links to a sequence of studies by Roger Price which opened my understanding of God up:-


Does God exist? (Key question to start on!)"

God, who is He? (What can we know about God)

"The Trinity" Part 1 - the problem with easy “explanations”

“The Trinity” Part 2 - The Trinity in the Old Testament

“The Trinity” Part 3 - The Trinity in the New Testament

God is love

God is eternal

God faithful and true

God never changes

God’s omniscience

God’s omnipotence

God’s sovereignty

God’s holiness

 

[Daze]

...repeated rejection of the message of Jesus leads to..

You post too much for me to reply to Red. So much of what you post is easily refuted like "omnipotence" when Jesus says he can do nothing without the Father. But the part I quoted is pretty key.

You don't have Jesus's message. Point blank. What you have is a book that's been so heavily edited over the centuries that there exists more then 2000 versions today. Can you sit and ponder on that? Do you need me to source it? I once linked a list here on these forums and scrolling through it seemed absolutely endless.

"'How can you say, "We are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?
(Jeremiah 8:8)

Do you want to know what Jesus's message was? Worship your Lord, alone without partners and hold to the 10 commandments. Thats it. But today his message is nearly completely lost, to the tune that of 90% of "his followers" are worshiping HIM.

The saddest truth Red.. Is that many will not see this until Jesus tells them himself on judgement day. On a day when the Almighty will be so angry even the prophets will be scared.

Recall when Moses said.. I seek refuge with the Almighty from being amongst the ignorant.

 

[DesertRose]

In a nutshell, the attributes of God (to which no mere human could attain) are applied to all three members of the Trinity, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. To understand what the Bible teaches about each of these attributes, you need to do the work and dig deep.

No need to dig deep in Islam. Worship the One God and do not direct worship to anything or anyone else because they are Created .

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

No need to dig deep in Islam. Worship the One God and do not direct worship to anything or anyone else because they are Created .

If God is real @DesertRose you might reasonably expect aspects of his nature to be deep.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

You don't have Jesus's message. Point blank. What you have is a book that's been so heavily edited over the centuries that there exists more then 2000 versions today. .

I invite you to the discussion of texts @Daze

https://vigilantcitizenforums.com/threads/the-critical-text-criticized.3461/

 

[Daze]

I invite you to the discussion of texts @Daze

https://vigilantcitizenforums.com/threads/the-critical-text-criticized.3461/

I was born a Christian Red, in a Christian home in a town absolutely surrounded by Christians. While my dad seen Jesus as god incarnate, just like you do. Sadly he died upon that belief.. I spent 30 years with the Bible Red. I don't need your discussion when I'm pretty well versed with it.

As its 11pm i pretty much need to call it a night, but perhaps one day we can discuss many Biblical scholars believing the Prophet Muhammad (saw) was a prophet of God.

The video is 7 minutes, i do reccomend you watch it. I'd transcribe it, but like i said its late.

 

[DesertRose]

If God is real @DesertRose you might reasonably expect aspects of his nature to be deep.

The Creator Allah is real Red. Nothing is eternal except Allah and His attributes.
Allah is the Eternal, without a beginning, and the Everlasting, without an ending. His Existence does not end.
Allah does not need anything or anyone. He does not need one to give Him existence because He exists without a beginning.
Allah does not resemble any of His creatures--neither in His Self nor in His Attributes nor in His Doings.
Allah has the Power over everything. At no time is Allah powerless.

 

[pescatarian09]

O Christ-worshippers!

An Arabic Poem by

Ibn al Qayyim al Jawziyyah [d. 1350]​

O Christ-worshippers! We want an answer to our question [from your wise ones],
If the Lord was murdered by some people's act, what kind of god is this?
We wonder! Was He pleased by what they did to Him?
If yes, blessed be they, for they achieved His pleasure,
But if He was discontented, this means their power had subjugated Him!

Was the present entity left without a Sustainer, so who answered the prayers?
Were the heavens vacated, when He lay under the ground somewhere?
Were all the worlds left without a God, to manage it while His hands were nailed?
Why did not the angels help Him, when they heard Him while He wailed?

How could the rods stand to bear the True Lord when He was fastened,
How could the irons reached Him and [had] His body pinned?
How could His enemies' hands reach Him and slap His rear,
And was Christ revived by himself, or was the Reviver another god?

What a sight it was, a grave that enclosed a god,
Stranger still is the belly that confined Him!
He stayed there for nine months in utter darkness, fed by blood!
Then he got out of the womb as a small baby,
Weak and gasping to be breast-fed!
He ate and drank, and did what that naturally resulted,
Is this [what you call] a god?
High Exalted be Allah above the lies of Christians,
All of them will be held accountable for their libels!

O Cross-worshippers! For what reason is this exalted
and blame [is cast upon those] who reject it?
Is it not logical to break and burn it, along with the one who innovated it?
Since the Lord was crucified on it, and His hands were fastened to it?
That is really a cursed cross to carry,
So discard it, do not kiss it!

The Lord was abused on it, and you adore it?
So [it is clear that] you are one of His enemies!
If you extol it because it carried the Lord of the Worlds,
Why don't you prostrate yourself and worship graves,
Since the grave contained your god in it?

So Christ-worshippers, open your eyes,
This is what the matter is all about.

 

[pescatarian09]

If God is real @DesertRose you might reasonably expect aspects of his nature to be deep.

Not being able to comprehend God in totality
does not equal
Not being able to know if God is a trinity or not

We cannot comprehend the nature of God in totality, but we can know who God is and what God does. And this is the function of revelation. Mystery and revelation are opposites - they are mutually exclusive, and cannot both be maintained to be absolute unless there is a deficiency in one of them [i.e. if mystery explains God, revelation is superfluous; if revelation explains God, explaining things by virtue of mystery is not needed]. In Islam, aql (intellect) cannot lead one to salvation, naql (revelation) is also needed. On its own, the intellect is lacking and needs revelation to dispel ambiguities, and establish clarity and certainty.




Mansur explains the contradiction.

 

[Tidal]

When it was just Jesus peace be upon him and his disciples, were they deficient for want of more followers?
You don't have to do much to qualify as a Christian you know. You just say some words but the rest of the time you can carry on ogling women from behind tins of soup..

1- When a young unknown named Elvis first hit the scene he became king from that instant, and his fan following swiftly snowballed.
Same with Jesus, he started with Just 12 fans but now there are billions, right Elv?-

2- I said it's from between cans of baked beans mate, get it right..

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

The Creator Allah is real Red. Nothing is eternal except Allah and His attributes.
Allah is the Eternal, without a beginning, and the Everlasting, without an ending. His Existence does not end.
Allah does not need anything or anyone. He does not need one to give Him existence because He exists without a beginning.
Allah does not resemble any of His creatures--neither in His Self nor in His Attributes nor in His Doings.
Allah has the Power over everything. At no time is Allah powerless.

I opened this thread up because, whether we like it or not (or like each other or not) Christians and Muslims simply say different things about Jesus and so logically, at least one group is wrong. Such a stance in today’s world is not popular.

It is better to at least know what each other believes and why regardless.

To state the Islamic perspective:-

“O People of the Scripture. do not commit excess in your religion or say about Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah and His word which He directed to Mary and a soul [created at a command] from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers. And do not say, "Three"; desist - it is better for you. Indeed, Allah is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs.”
— Quran 4 (An-Nisa), ayat171[3]

“They have certainly disbelieved who say, " Allah is the Messiah, the son of Mary" while the Messiah has said, "O Children of Israel, worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord." Indeed, he who associates others with Allah - Allah has forbidden him Paradise, and his refuge is the Fire. And there are not for the wrongdoers any helpers. They have certainly disbelieved who say, " Allah is the third of three." And there is no god except one God. And if they do not desist from what they are saying, there will surely afflict the disbelievers among them a painful punishment. So will they not repent to Allah and seek His forgiveness? And Allah is Forgiving and Merciful. The Messiah, son of Mary, was not but a messenger; [other] messengers have passed on before him. And his mother was a supporter of truth. They both used to eat food. Look how We make clear to them the signs; then look how they are deluded.”
— Quran 5 (Al-Ma'ida), ayat 72-75[4]

And

“And [beware the Day] when Allah will say, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, 'Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah ?'" He will say, "Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right. If I had said it, You would have known it. You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is within Yourself. Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen. I said not to them except what You commanded me - to worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. And I was a witness over them as long as I was among them; but when You took me up, You were the Observer over them, and You are, over all things, Witness. If You should punish them - indeed they are Your servants; but if You forgive them - indeed it is You who is the Exalted in Might, the Wise.”
— Quran 5 (Al-Ma'ida), ayat 116-118[5]

If I were a committed Muslim who wholeheartedly believed that these words were given to the Prophet Muhammad by Allah, I would find it almost impossible to engage with the ideas of those who commit shirk.

Accordingly, however logical (even if that logic is complex) they appear to be, they MUST be wrong.

This irresistible force and immovable object often leads to lots of nastiness on both sides as people get frustrated by one another. I just wanted to share a couple of posts back why I believed in the Trinity, in maths terms “showing my working out”.

p.s. to bemused onlookers to this kind of conversation, it is a consequence of our world demographic!! “Who is Jesus” has been the well trodden question of world religion for some time now ;-)

 

[Tidal]

The Trinity thing is just something cooked up by the catholic church and others.
Jesus said plenty of times that he and God were completely separate, for example-

Jesus said - "I am going to the Father, for my Father is greater than I" (John 14:28 )
Jesus said -"Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone" (Luke 18:19)
Jesus said - "Only God knows when Judgment Day will be, I don't know myself" (Mark 13:32)

 

[pescatarian09]

Christians and Muslims simply say different things about Jesus and so logically, at least one group is wrong

Correct.

I would find it almost impossible to engage with the ideas of those who commit shirk.

Incorrect.

That's simply an opinion. As Muslims, it is nothing less than our God-given duty to engage with the ideas of those who commit shirk, to call them back to worship of God alone.

This irresistible force and immovable object often leads to lots of nastiness on both sides as people get frustrated by one another.

Muslims, at least, should not get frustrated. Because our primary motive is not to convert someone. It is simply to present the message, and make the truth known. That is the obligation Allah has placed on us. Guidance is only in the hands of Allah; whoever He wills to guide, none can misguide, and whowever He wills to be led astray, none can guide.

These verses come to mind.

O you who have believed, upon you is [responsibility for] yourselves. Those who have gone astray will not harm you when you have been guided. To Allah is your return all together; then He will inform you of what you used to do. [5:105]

Say, “Shall we invoke besides Allah that which can neither benefit nor harm us, and shall we turn back to disbelief after being guided by Allah? Just like the one whom devils have tempted in the land leaving him bewildered, although he has companions inviting him to guidance, “Come to us.” Say, “Allah’s guidance is the [true] guidance, and we are commanded to submit to the Lord of the worlds, [6:71]

We have brought you the truth, assuredly, but most of you are averse to the truth. [43:78]

 

[recure]

If I were a committed Muslim who wholeheartedly believed that these words were given to the Prophet Muhammad by Allah, I would find it almost impossible to engage with the ideas of those who commit shirk.

Accordingly, however logical (even if that logic is complex) they appear to be, they MUST be wrong.

"Mohammedans are, as it were, defrauded of their faith in Christ by the counterfeit obtruding itself to their vision, and intercepting their heart's ready trust in a Mediator and Saviour, of whom they stand as much in need as other men. Islam has an undoubted tendency to engender in its votaries an excessive sense of religious superiority, and a contempt for every other faith and its professors. The Moslems are not accustomed to examine into the foundation and proofs of their own religion. They are taught to look upon the question 'Why?' in matters of religion, as blamable rather than laudable. They take for granted that their Islam is the Divine revelation in the absolute sense, and their Prophet the seal and chief of all other prophets. They have to be taught to think and reason, to ask for proof and weigh evidence, to rise from a blind faith to an enlightened faith." - Sigismund Koelle, Mohammed and Mohammedanism, 1889, p. X

 

[pescatarian09]

They have to be taught to think and reason

Who by? Our colonial overlords? We are not animals and savages. However, if it makes you feel better, you may continue thinking so.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

@recure

I think this line is very important:-

“examine into the foundation and proofs of their own religion.”

For years I have been interested in the question of how objective or hostile witnesses to the claims of Christianity inadvertently add credence to Biblical claims. I think anyone who is going to believe anything needs to be their own harshest critic.

You might be interested in this one, as it shows an early satirist, Lucian (apparently) making fun of 1 John 5:7

The Trinity in the Dead Sea Scrolls

I have noticed a popular claim here by those wishing to deny that the Trinity is a Biblical concept - that it was a later imposition by the Catholic Church. If that were so, you would be hard pressed to find the concept of a triune God in the Dead Sea Scrolls, sealed in caves by the Essenes to...

vigilantcitizenforums.com

 

[pescatarian09]

Christians, if you believe that we simply because we reject your arguments, we are unopen to reason, you may continue to think that way. But by doing so, you run the risk of turning that same argument against your own selves.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Christians, if you believe that we simply because we reject your arguments, we are unopen to reason, you may continue to think that way. But by doing so, you run the risk of turning that same argument against your own selves.

Truthfully, Christians cannot know the hearts of individual Muslims, and it is wrong to generalise and extrapolate from the experiences we have had with others.

I wouldn’t say anything to anyone if I believed everyone was closed minded. I would also never read and challenge myself with alternative perspectives.

It is for each of us to examine our own commitment to truth, wherever that may take us.

 

[pescatarian09]

@Red Sky at Morning I have responded to several of your previous posts. If you want to ignore them, that's fine. But I hope you would respond to at least a few of them.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

@Red Sky at Morning I have responded to several of your previous posts. If you want to ignore them, that's fine. But I hope you would respond to at least a few of them.

I have read them, but I have also had similar long threads that have led to a lot of “set pieces” in chess terminology.

The reason for the difficulty lies in the presuppositions. Rather than repeat the same process, I felt it was better to set out the reasons why I DO believe in the Trinity. You might disagree with those reasons on logical grounds (and that’s fine).