Do all religions lead us to God?

Awoken2

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You remind me of Lisa.
Our religion forbids us from that kind of speech against the deities of others lest they respond in kind.
It is not my intention DR to remind anybody of Lisa but I used those words to express my horror on hearing about the brain boiling shoes. I have never been informed of this before so it was a bit of a shock. How can this supreme being, who is all loving, all knowing and all understanding be putting people in shoes that boil your brain?.....for eternity?

I have never understood the concept of "believe in me or you live in hell for eternity" and for that reason I usually steer well clear of any religious threads.

Apologies if my words offended you.
 






arhur12

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Thank-you, however everything you've claimed about the crucifixion and resurrection is man-made doctrine, which includes the totally and illogical mistaken belief that Jesus wasn't crucified and raised again from the dead, as it says repeatedly throughout the Koran (Quran) and the Bible, which the Koran was sent to CONFIRM.

Sharing this truth with you is not disrespectful; on the contrary, it is being shared out of the utmost respect, knowing exactly what is at stake.

Please consider the fact that the Koran (Quran) tells us numerous times that it was sent to CONFIRM The Law and the Gospel, which is why it COMMANDS us to read, carefully study and apply their teachings. The Koran (Quran) also tells us NOT TO BE IN DOUBT of the true Law and Gospel reaching us, which is why anyone who falsely claims that the Bible has been corrupted is very foolishly calling God a liar.

We have it straight from the mouth of Jesus (Isa) that he did, in fact die, before being raised up to life again, proving those who believe Jesus didn't die and was raised alive don't actually believe the truth that Prophet Isa (Jesus) spoke, even after such clear signs being given, including the virgin birth, the only one that the Koran (Quran) that it says was strengthened by the Holy Spirit, that Jesus+Christ will be held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to God.

Sura 19:29-34
19:29. But she pointed to the babe. They said: "How can we talk to one who is a child in the crib?"
19:30. He said: "I am indeed a servant of "I AM": He hath given me revelation and made me a Prophet;
19:31. And He hath made me blessed wheresoever I be, and hath enjoined on me Prayer and Compassion as long as I live;
19:32. (He) hath made me kind to my mother, and not overbearing or miserable;
19:33. So Peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again)!"
19:34. Such (was) Jesus the son of Mary: (it is) a statement of truth, about which they (vainly) dispute.

Clearly no one in Islam has correctly understood Sura 4:157-159, or they would never claim or repeat the false teaching that it contradicts the Bible and the rest of the Koran (Quran). The Koran (Quran) also warns against denying God and His Apostles, or picking and choosing which Apostles they will believe and which they will reject.

Sura 4:150-152

4:150. Those who deny God and His Apostles, and (those who) wish to separate God from His Apostles, saying: "We believe in some but reject others": and (those who) wish to take a course midway,-
4:151. They are in truth (equally) Unbelievers; and we have prepared for Unbelievers a humiliating punishment.
4:152. To those who believe in God and His Apostles and make no distinction between any of the Apostles, We shall soon give their (due) rewards: for God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

Please take the time to review what's already been shared before jumping to any conclusions. God's Word, found in the Old Covenant, New Covenant and the Koran (Quran) is TRUTH, and requires no organized religion or its spiritually blind guides to interpret it.

Peace be upon you.

Sura 2:98. Whoever is an enemy to God and His angels and Apostles, to Gabriel and Michael (Daniel 12:1; Rev. 12:7),- Lo! God is an enemy to those who reject Faith."

Sura 3:55. Behold! God said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee SUPERIOR to those who reject faith, to The Day of Resurrection: then shall ye all return unto Me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute.
Thanks! for your reply
I have exams coming up in a few days so I am busy right now but I will give you a detailed response as soon as I get some time.
 






DesertRose

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How can this supreme being, who is all loving, all knowing and all understanding be putting people in shoes that boil your brain?.....for eternity?
That is a better way of voicing your concern and it does not cause offense. Thanks.

Awoken your intrinsic value on earth by the estimation of most humans would be is greater than the intrinsic value of a tree.
Likewise in the estimation of the Creator the value and rights that He has as an infinite being who is All Powerful and All knowing and Omnipotent is greater than the estimation of us human beings who are finite.
Just as the offense of cutting down a tree is not as severe as cutting down a human being then we should understand that the greatest offense against the Creator is worshiping (rules/dictates) of others, self or the ideas of men. This is the greatest lapse in judgement, and is a failing and an ingratitude towards Him.
These people did not create you nor did you create yourself.
The purpose of the creation of man and freewill is responsibility and duty not autonomy and hedonism. God defines our purpose and existence and he establishes the relationship between us and Himself. He is our sole reference point for our belief and action. (Check video explanation).
Subjective standards of morality and justice create chaos and injustice as can be witnessed on earth at the moment.
We should take life seriously and lead an examined life.
He has sent guidance through messengers and has given us a respite in regards to punishment for sins at this time and we are told to use our God given understanding and ponder.

We are told, life is a test sometimes the test comes with with calamities and sometimes with blessings, to find out who will be thankful and who will be ungrateful, and who will obey and who will disobey, then He will reward or punish us on the Day of Resurrection:

“and We shall make a trial of you with evil and with good. And to Us you will be returned”
al-Anbiya’ 21:35

We will certainly test you with something of fear and hunger, and loss of wealth and lives and fruits (earnings); but give glad tidings to the persevering and patient. 2.155

He Created us we live by His rules and in accordance to His testing.
Likewise, The Creator differentiates between those who obey and those who disobey otherwise he would be unjust:

"As He is merciful, He is also just. If someone were to say that He must show mercy to the disbeliever, for He is the most merciful of those who show mercy because mercy is His attribute, our response is: that would imply that He should not be just, but justice is also His attribute. Allah, may He be exalted, says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Or do those who earn evil deeds think that We shall hold them equal with those who believe (in the Oneness of Allah Islamic Monotheism) and do righteous good deeds, in their present life and after their death? Worst is the judgement that they make”
[al-Jaathiyah 45:21]

“Shall We treat those who believe (in the Oneness of Allah Islamic Monotheism) and do righteous good deeds, as Mufsidoon (those who associate partners in worship with Allah and commit crimes) on earth? Or shall We treat the Muttaqoon (pious), as the Fujjar (criminals, disbelievers, wicked, etc)?”
[Saad 38:28]

“Shall We then treat the (submitting) Muslims like the Mujrimoon (criminals, polytheists and disbelievers, etc.)?
What is the matter with you? How judge you?”
[al-Qalam 68:35, 36].


By His perfect wisdom and justice, Allah, may He be glorified, differentiates between ....those who obey Him and those who disobey Him, those who worship Him and those who worship something other than Him. Otherwise, treating all of these people as equals would come under the heading of injustice that is contrary to justice and wisdom. If people do not treat their enemies and their friends equally, and they regard that as foolishness, ignorance and injustice according to human understanding, concepts and customs, then how about in the case of Allah, the Lord of the Worlds, may He be glorified?

Allah, may He be exalted, the most merciful of those who show mercy, created mankind, granted them provision and bestowed upon them innumerable blessings, then He sent the Messengers to them, and He sent down the Books, and guided them to faith and guidance; undoubtedly this is far greater than the mercy of a mother to her child.
When the believer obeys Him and the disbeliever disobeys Him, it is impossible for Him to treat them equally, because of the dictates of His wisdom, His knowledge, His justice, His promise (of reward) and His warning (of punishment); the disbeliever puts himself beyond the bounds of deserving this mercy which is only for some in the Hereafter. "


Is HellFire Just?

I pray that your journey towards nearness to the Creator is a path of ease and understanding. Ameen
 






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DesertRose

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May 20, 2017
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I think these 2 videos by Brother Daniel bring up some good points. The second one explains how humans have a natural inclination towards God.
Food for thought for those who are of a fair mind.

The Genius of Islam | Ep. 1 - The Modern Human Condition


Dark Truths About the Atheist Mind | Genius of Islam Ep. 2

This thread is toxic so I will stay out of it. Later
 






arhur12

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Jun 2, 2021
Messages
297
That is a better way of voicing your concern and it does not cause offense. Thanks.

Awoken your intrinsic value on earth by the estimation of most humans would be is greater than the intrinsic value of a tree.
Likewise in the estimation of the Creator the value and rights that He has as an infinite being who is All Powerful and All knowing and Omnipotent is greater than the estimation of us human beings who are finite.
Just as the offense of cutting down a tree is not as severe as cutting down a human being then we should understand that the greatest offense against the Creator is worshiping (rules/dictates) of others, self or the ideas of men. This is the greatest lapse in judgement, and is a failing and an ingratitude towards Him.
These people did not create you nor did you create yourself.
Subjective standards of morality and justice create chaos and injustice as can be witnessed on earth at the moment.
We should take life seriously and lead an examined life.
He has sent guidance through messengers and has given us a respite in regards to punishment for sins at this time and we are told to use our God given understanding and ponder.

We are told, life is a test sometimes the test comes with with calamities and sometimes with blessings, to find out who will be thankful and who will be ungrateful, and who will obey and who will disobey, then He will reward or punish us on the Day of Resurrection:

“and We shall make a trial of you with evil and with good. And to Us you will be returned”
al-Anbiya’ 21:35

We will certainly test you with something of fear and hunger, and loss of wealth and lives and fruits (earnings); but give glad tidings to the persevering and patient. 2.155

He Created us we live by His rules and in accordance to His testing.
Likewise, The Creator differentiates between those who obey and those who disobey otherwise he would be unjust:

"As He is merciful, He is also just. If someone were to say that He must show mercy to the disbeliever, for He is the most merciful of those who show mercy because mercy is His attribute, our response is: that would imply that He should not be just, but justice is also His attribute. Allah, may He be exalted, says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Or do those who earn evil deeds think that We shall hold them equal with those who believe (in the Oneness of Allah Islamic Monotheism) and do righteous good deeds, in their present life and after their death? Worst is the judgement that they make”
[al-Jaathiyah 45:21]

“Shall We treat those who believe (in the Oneness of Allah Islamic Monotheism) and do righteous good deeds, as Mufsidoon (those who associate partners in worship with Allah and commit crimes) on earth? Or shall We treat the Muttaqoon (pious), as the Fujjar (criminals, disbelievers, wicked, etc)?”
[Saad 38:28]

“Shall We then treat the (submitting) Muslims like the Mujrimoon (criminals, polytheists and disbelievers, etc.)?
What is the matter with you? How judge you?”
[al-Qalam 68:35, 36].


By His perfect wisdom and justice, Allah, may He be glorified, differentiates between ....those who obey Him and those who disobey Him, those who worship Him and those who worship something other than Him. Otherwise, treating all of these people as equals would come under the heading of injustice that is contrary to justice and wisdom. If people do not treat their enemies and their friends equally, and they regard that as foolishness, ignorance and injustice according to human understanding, concepts and customs, then how about in the case of Allah, the Lord of the Worlds, may He be glorified?

Allah, may He be exalted, the most merciful of those who show mercy, created mankind, granted them provision and bestowed upon them innumerable blessings, then He sent the Messengers to them, and He sent down the Books, and guided them to faith and guidance; undoubtedly this is far greater than the mercy of a mother to her child.
When the believer obeys Him and the disbeliever disobeys Him, it is impossible for Him to treat them equally, because of the dictates of His wisdom, His knowledge, His justice, His promise (of reward) and His warning (of punishment); the disbeliever puts himself beyond the bounds of deserving this mercy which is only for some in the Hereafter. "


Is HellFire Just?

I pray that your journey towards nearness to the Creator is a path of ease and understanding. Ameen
I would like to add that God has provided us with an easy path to heaven by sending the Prophets (peace be upon them) and the Holy book because if he did did not send guidance from the heavens and we were to reach the truth by our own efforts very few would be able to avoid the punishment of hell. Freedom and independence are not as desirable as modern society makes them out to be because when you are independent you cannot rely on anyone and you have to figure out everything yourself which 99 out of 100 times leads people astray. 7.7 billion people in this world and everyone has subjective views on what is right and what is wrong and people's morality keeps changing as time passes if we were to rely on our own judgements it would take us millions of years to find the truth and maybe even more so God has made things easy for us by sending objective guidance on what is right and what is wrong but sadly most do not understand and are led astray by the devil and his followers.
 






DesertRose

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Messages
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I would like to add that God has provided us with an easy path to heaven by sending the Prophets (peace be upon them) and the Holy book because if he did did not send guidance from the heavens and we were to reach the truth by our own efforts very few would be able to avoid the punishment of hell. Freedom and independence are not as desirable as modern society makes them out to be because when you are independent you cannot rely on anyone and you have to figure out everything yourself which 99 out of 100 times leads people astray. 7.7 billion people in this world and everyone has subjective views on what is right and what is wrong and people's morality keeps changing as time passes if we were to rely on our own judgements it would take us millions of years to find the truth and maybe even more so God has made things easy for us by sending objective guidance on what is right and what is wrong but sadly most do not understand and are led astray by the devil and his followers.
Thanks, Barak Allah feeki @arhur12 and welcome!
 






A Freeman

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Thanks! for your reply
I have exams coming up in a few days so I am busy right now but I will give you a detailed response as soon as I get some time.
Thank-you. Please also see:

 






arhur12

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Jun 2, 2021
Messages
297
Thank-you, however everything you've claimed about the crucifixion and resurrection is man-made doctrine, which includes the totally and illogical mistaken belief that Jesus wasn't crucified and raised again from the dead, as it says repeatedly throughout the Koran (Quran) and the Bible, which the Koran was sent to CONFIRM.

Sharing this truth with you is not disrespectful; on the contrary, it is being shared out of the utmost respect, knowing exactly what is at stake.

Please consider the fact that the Koran (Quran) tells us numerous times that it was sent to CONFIRM The Law and the Gospel, which is why it COMMANDS us to read, carefully study and apply their teachings. The Koran (Quran) also tells us NOT TO BE IN DOUBT of the true Law and Gospel reaching us, which is why anyone who falsely claims that the Bible has been corrupted is very foolishly calling God a liar.

We have it straight from the mouth of Jesus (Isa) that he did, in fact die, before being raised up to life again, proving those who believe Jesus didn't die and was raised alive don't actually believe the truth that Prophet Isa (Jesus) spoke, even after such clear signs being given, including the virgin birth, the only one that the Koran (Quran) that it says was strengthened by the Holy Spirit, that Jesus+Christ will be held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to God.

Sura 19:29-34
19:29. But she pointed to the babe. They said: "How can we talk to one who is a child in the crib?"
19:30. He said: "I am indeed a servant of "I AM": He hath given me revelation and made me a Prophet;
19:31. And He hath made me blessed wheresoever I be, and hath enjoined on me Prayer and Compassion as long as I live;
19:32. (He) hath made me kind to my mother, and not overbearing or miserable;
19:33. So Peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again)!"
19:34. Such (was) Jesus the son of Mary: (it is) a statement of truth, about which they (vainly) dispute.

Clearly no one in Islam has correctly understood Sura 4:157-159, or they would never claim or repeat the false teaching that it contradicts the Bible and the rest of the Koran (Quran). The Koran (Quran) also warns against denying God and His Apostles, or picking and choosing which Apostles they will believe and which they will reject.

Sura 4:150-152

4:150. Those who deny God and His Apostles, and (those who) wish to separate God from His Apostles, saying: "We believe in some but reject others": and (those who) wish to take a course midway,-
4:151. They are in truth (equally) Unbelievers; and we have prepared for Unbelievers a humiliating punishment.
4:152. To those who believe in God and His Apostles and make no distinction between any of the Apostles, We shall soon give their (due) rewards: for God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

Please take the time to review what's already been shared before jumping to any conclusions. God's Word, found in the Old Covenant, New Covenant and the Koran (Quran) is TRUTH, and requires no organized religion or its spiritually blind guides to interpret it.

Peace be upon you.

Sura 2:98. Whoever is an enemy to God and His angels and Apostles, to Gabriel and Michael (Daniel 12:1; Rev. 12:7),- Lo! God is an enemy to those who reject Faith."

Sura 3:55. Behold! God said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee SUPERIOR to those who reject faith, to The Day of Resurrection: then shall ye all return unto Me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute.
Sorry for The late reply I have exams from the 23rd so I have been busy with studies

Disclaimer: before I answer all of your questions I will say that even if I provide you with 10000 proofs you will not believe me because this is just how humans work we believe what we want to believe in so I won't be replying to any of your posts or this entire thread because it is a waste of time to continue arguing with someone when we know none of us are going to come to an agreement I will just provide proofs for why I believe my faith is correct and you can choose to reject it or believe in it

Firstly yes it is true that the Bible (including both gospels and Torah) are holy scriptures from God just like Quran but this doesn't mean there have been no human "errors" in writing of the bible and mistranslations. Indeed The Quran came to confirm the teachings of the previous holy books but the Quran also "Corrects" certain biblical narratives.
There is no doubt that the Holy Spirit (Ruh-ul-Qudus) was sent to Strengthen Prophet Isa A.S but there is nowhere in the Quran where it says that the Holy Spirit was Angel Michael.
Angel Gabriel as the one who brings revelations to Prophets A.S

"Say: Whoever is an enemy to Gabriel-for he brings down the (revelation) to thy heart by Allah's will, a confirmation of what went before and guidance and glad tidings for those who believe." (al-Baqara, 2/97)

Angel Gabriel referred to as the Holy Spirit which brings revelation

"Say the Holy Spirit has brought the revelation from thy Lord in truth... (an-Nahl 16/102 )


Quran says that it was Angel Gabriel A.S who was sent to the Prophets to deliver Wahi (revelations) and Strengthen them an example of this is the battle of badr where Prophet Gabriel A.S descended from the heavens to help the Muslims

[Remember] when your Lord inspired to the angels, "I am with you, so Strengthen those who have believed. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieved, so strike [them] upon the necks and strike from them every fingertip." Al-Anfal:12
So strengthen does not mean that the Angel Gabriel (A.S) was literally a part of Prophet Isa A.S soul.
more references of Angels being sent to assist/Strengthen the believers
"Remember ye implored the assistance of your Lord, and He answered you: ‘I will assist you with a thousand of the angels, ranks on ranks.’"(al-Anfal, 8/9)
"Is it not enough for you that Allah should help you with three thousand angels (specially) sent down?"(Aal-i Imran, 3/124)


"In the case of those who say "Our Lord is Allah", and further, stand straight and steadfast, the angels descend on them (from time to time): "Fear ye not!" (they suggest) "Nor grieve! but receive the Glad Tidings of the Garden (of Bliss), the which ye were promised! We are your protectors in this life and in the Hereafter..."(Fussilat, 24/30-31)

God says In the Quran repeatedly that the angels are nothing more than the servant of God

"They (angels) are (but) servants raised to honor. They speak not before He speaks, and they act (in all things) by His command." (al-Anbiya, 21/26-27)
How many so ever be the angels in the heavens, their intercession will avail nothing except after Allah has given leave for whom He pleases and that he is acceptable to Him." (an-Najm, 53/26)
Some people in Arabia used to believe that angels are daughters of God but God refutes this claim and does not mention the Angels being his sons or correcting their belief.

(37:150) Did We create the angels as females the while they witnessed?”
(37:151) Behold, it is one of their fabrications that they say:
(37:152) “Allah has begotten.” They are liars!
(37:153) Did He choose daughters rather than sons?
(37:154) What is the matter with you that you make such strange judgements?

Coming to resurrection and crucifixion of Prophet Isa A.S 19:34 does not prove that Prophet Isa died on the cross and then he was resurrected after three nights. Allah says in the Quran

That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-
Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-
— Quran 4:157–158 [11]
If Prophet Isa A.S was not Killed and nor was he Crucified than how did he die? Allah raised Prophet Isa A.S unto the heavens when he was alive and not dead. We can interpret this to mean that he was not dead after the apparent crucifixion and later Mary Magdalene and other women went to his grave they found the tomb empty because he was not dead and they met Prophet Isa A.S who was then raised to heaven while he was Alive and that will make the biblical narrative more logical. According to the Islamic perspective He will come again in the final years to kill the Antichrist and Fulfill his duties as the True Messiah. Also 19:34 could be a reference to the day of Resurrection when all will be raised to life again as is referred to in several places in the Quran

And before you go on and say this is man made doctrine I have not used a single hadith reference here all from the Quran and Quran has not been altered in the past 1400 years.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birmingham_Quran_manuscript#:~:text=The Birmingham Quran manuscript is,56 BH and 25 AH).
The oldest manuscripts of the Quran with no differences from the current Quran proof that quran hasn't been altered.
 






A Freeman

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Messages
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Sorry for The late reply I have exams from the 23rd so I have been busy with studies

Disclaimer: before I answer all of your questions I will say that even if I provide you with 10000 proofs you will not believe me because this is just how humans work we believe what we want to believe in so I won't be replying to any of your posts or this entire thread because it is a waste of time to continue arguing with someone when we know none of us are going to come to an agreement I will just provide proofs for why I believe my faith is correct and you can choose to reject it or believe in it
Thank-you. Agreed. What has been shared with you and others is the truth about the Bible and the Koran (Quran), which humans reject, because they have no love for the truth.

The organized religion that calls itself "Judaism" is based upon the Talmud, i.e. the "traditions of the fathers/elders" which make the Commandments of God of NO effect. The Talmud is condemned in The Law (see Deut. 4:2, 12:8, 12:32) and again in the Gospel (Matt. 15:3, 9) and again in the Koran (Quran), which refers its readers back to The Law and the Gospel for that critically important message.

The Talmud is therefore satanic, as should be self-evident, because it mixes man-made traditions and cultural beliefs with the Word of God (shirk).

https://vigilantcitizenforums.com/threads/them-which-say-they-are-jews-but-are-not.6663/

The organized religion that deceitfully calls itself "Christianity" is doing exactly the same thing, with all of their made up rules, rites, rituals and religious superstitions, led by the Roman Catholic church (the Great Whore), with its openly advertised idolatry (shirk), infamous criminal priesthood, and its shadow government and military unit (the Jesuits), which hold the purse-strings to the entire international business.

https://vigilantcitizenforums.com/threads/revelation-17-the-great-whore.6778/


The exact same thing is going on in the organized religion that deceitfully calls itself "Islam", which has made a partner with God's Word out of the fabricated man-made Hadith (the traditions/sayings of the fathers/elders). Every single so-called Muslim who believes, claims or promotes the Hadith is committing shirk in doing so, whether they see it or not.

The Hadith is the advertising brochure for "Islam", which tries to replace God's Law -- found only in the first five books of the Bible -- with "Sharia law", which adds and takes away from God's Law, thereby breaking God's Commandments. It's impossible to do God's Will whilst openly defying Him and breaking His Law. The Hadith is then used to discredit both The Law and the Gospel, and wrongly deify Mohammad, placing the fabricated writings that are allegedly his teachings not equal to, but ABOVE the Word of God.

https://vigilantcitizenforums.com/threads/the-top-10-myths-that-dominate-islam.8814/

Firstly yes it is true that the Bible (including both gospels and Torah) are holy scriptures from God just like Quran but this doesn't mean there have been no human "errors" in writing of the bible and mistranslations.
Agreed. And the reason God allows these few and far-between errors is to test us, to see if we genuinely are in search of the truth or whether we have a disease in our heart (and mind) and are thus easily misled by Lucifer/Satan/Iblis and his organized religions. Of course God Himself told us this in both the Bible and the Koran (Quran), warning us that everytime He sends His Message, through one of His Prophets or Messengers/Apostles, Lucifer/Satan/Iblis comes behind and gets one of his glove puppets to throw in a suggestion, to serve as a trial.

In the Old Covenant (from the Book of Enoch/Idris):

THE INCORRECT WRITING OF GOD'S WORDS PROPHESIED

Enoch 104:8 They shall speak evil things; they shall utter falsehood (ch. 97:2); create a great creation (false religions and religious traditions and technology); and compose books of their own words (books of man-made legislation, rules, etc.; books of the religious traditions of their fathers; novels; etc.; etc.; etc. - ch. 68:13).

In the New Covenant:

2 Thessalonians 2:7-12
2:7 For the mystery (Rev. 17:5) of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way.
2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the [Sword of the] Spirit from his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness [of the enlightening] of his coming:
2:9 [Even the Wicked], whose coming is the work of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of The Truth, that they might be saved.
2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not The Truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

And in the Koran (Quran):

Sura 6:112-115
6:112. Likewise We made for every Messenger an enemy,- evil ones among men and Beings (human+beings), inspiring each other with flowery discourses by way of deception. If thy Lord had so planned, they would not have done it: so leave them and their inventions alone.
6:113. To such (deceit) let the hearts of those incline, who have no faith in the Hereafter: let them delight in it, and let them earn from it what they may.
6:114. Say: "Shall I seek for judge other than "I AM"? - when He it is Who hath sent unto you The Book (Bible), explained in detail." They, to whom We have given The Book, know full well, that it hath been sent down from thy Lord in truth. NEVER be then one of those who doubt (Sura 3:1-3, 15:9, 32:23).
6:115. The Word of thy Lord doth find its FULFILLMENT in TRUTH and in JUSTICE: none can change His Words: for He is the One who heareth and knoweth all.

Sura 22:52-55
22:52. Never did We send an Apostle or a Prophet before thee, but, when he framed a desire, Satan threw some (vanity) into his desire: but "I AM" will cancel anything (vain) that Satan throws in, and "I AM" WILL CONFIRM (AND ESTABLISH) HIS SIGNS (Sura 32:23): for "I AM" is full of Knowledge and Wisdom:
22:53. THAT HE MAY MAKE THE SUGGESTIONS THROWN IN BY SATAN, BUT A TRIAL FOR THOSE IN WHOSE HEARTS IS A DISEASE AND WHO ARE HARDENED OF HEART: verily the wrong-doers are in a schism far (from the Truth):
22:54. And that those on whom Knowledge has been bestowed may learn that the (Koran) is the Truth from thy Lord, and that they may believe therein, and their hearts may be made humbly (open) to it: for verily "I AM" is the Guide, of those who believe, to The Straight Way (Matthew 7:13-14, John 14:6, Sura 3:55).
22:55. Those who reject Faith will not cease to be in doubt concerning (Revelation) until The Hour (of Judgment) comes suddenly upon them, or there comes to them the Penalty of a Day of Disaster.

Sura 25:31. Thus have We made for every Prophet an enemy among the sinners: but enough is thy Lord to guide and to help.

There are literally layers, upon layers, upon layers of error correction built into the Bible, to ensure its Message of Truth can NEVER be corrupted by idiots and barbarians, which is why the Koran (Quran) assures us that NONE of God's Word can EVER be corrupted (rendered unusable).

Indeed The Quran came to confirm the teachings of the previous holy books but the Quran also "Corrects" certain biblical narratives.
How can something that was sent to CONFIRM the teachings in the previous, holy books somehow correct them? This is yet another LIE taught by the spiritually blind imams in "Islam", to mislead people AWAY from God and His Word.

A simple example of how twisted this satanic teaching really is would be the "trinity". NOWHERE in the Bible does it directly or indirectly teach that God (Allah) is a "trinity". In fact, there are HUNDREDS of verses in the Bible which make it crystal clear THERE IS NO TRINITY, and that the so-called Christian teachings about it are blasphemy.

By 610-632 BC, when Muhammad was given the Koran (Quran), sent down by God's Command by Prince Michael (Christ) through Gabriel (Dan. 10:21, 12:1, Sura 2:97-98), Roman Catholicism had spread throughout the known world, including into Arabia, where the Roman Catholic Meccans were trying to incorporate it into the tourist attraction now known as the "Kaba", which is NOT God's House nor was it built by Abraham, but instead was a very well-documented place of idol worship. Abraham never traveled to Mecca, nor did Hagar (the Egyptian) nor did Ishmael.

The Koran (Quran) rightly points out the satanic Roman Catholic tradition incorporating its Babylonian 3=1 deity is blasphemy and shirk, to keep people from falling for that LIE, but it is in no way "correcting" the Bible, which has always taught there is only ONE TRUE GOD.

One cannot "correct" something that wasn't wrong in the first place, nor can one correct and confirm something at the same time. Learn what the word CONFIRM means. It wouldn't hurt to also learn what the word CORRUPT means also. Both of these words are musused and abused in "Islam" to trick people into committing shirk.

There is no doubt that the Holy Spirit (Ruh-ul-Qudus) was sent to Strengthen Prophet Isa A.S but there is nowhere in the Quran where it says that the Holy Spirit was Angel Michael.
But it does say exactly that -- that the Holy Spirit is Prince Michael/Christ -- in the Bible, which the Koran (Quran) COMMANDS its readers to read, carefully study, apply and NOT TO DOUBT.

The Hebrew word "Satan" means "the Opposer", because Lucifer/Satan/Iblis always lies/claims the opposite of what God tells us, for our own benefit (the truth). How obvious does it need to be that anyone who claims the true Bible has been lost or corrupted is working for Satan?

Angel Gabriel as the one who brings revelations to Prophets A.S

"Say: Whoever is an enemy to Gabriel-for he brings down the (revelation) to thy heart by Allah's will, a confirmation of what went before and guidance and glad tidings for those who believe." (al-Baqara, 2/97)
Whoever is an enemy to God and His angels and Apostles, to Gabriel AND Michael (Daniel 12:1; Rev. 12:7),- Lo! God is an enemy to those who reject Faith." (al-Baquara, 2/98)

From Christ's Revelation to John, 12:7-11
12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels (including Gabriel) fought against the dragon (Lucifer); and the dragon fought and his angels,
12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out to the Earth, and his angels (you - Luke 9:55) were cast out with him (Matthew 25:41).
12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and The Kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their (human) lives unto the death (John 12:25).

Angel Gabriel referred to as the Holy Spirit which brings revelation

"Say the Holy Spirit has brought the revelation from thy Lord in truth... (an-Nahl 16/102 )
The Holy Spirit did bring the revelation from thy Lord (Christ/Prince Michael) THROUGH Gabriel.

Psalm 110:1 <A Psalm of David.> The "I AM" (Allah) said unto my Lord (Christ/Prince Michael), Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

1 Corinthians 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman [is] the man; and the head of Christ [is] God.

Sura 3:51. It is God Who is my Lord and your Lord (John 20:17) then worship Him. This is The Way that is Straight' (Matt.7:13-14, John 14:6)."

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and [to] my God, and your God.

Quran says that it was Angel Gabriel A.S who was sent to the Prophets to deliver Wahi (revelations)
Correct.

and Strengthen them an example of this is the battle of badr where Prophet Gabriel A.S descended from the heavens to help the Muslims

[Remember] when your Lord inspired to the angels, "I am with you, so Strengthen those who have believed. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieved, so strike [them] upon the necks and strike from them every fingertip." Al-Anfal:12
So strengthen does not mean that the Angel Gabriel (A.S) was literally a part of Prophet Isa A.S soul.
That was never said nor implied.

What was shared is the Scripture that proves the Holy Spirit/Mediator between God and men is the immortal Spirit-Being Prince Michael/Christ, Who incarnated/strengthened the human son of Mary, known as Jesus. Together they formed the human+Being known as Jesus+Christ, sometimes worded in the Koran (Quran) as The Messiah (Christ) son of Mary (i.e. Christ-Jesus).

more references of Angels being sent to assist/Strengthen the believers
"Remember ye implored the assistance of your Lord, and He answered you: ‘I will assist you with a thousand of the angels, ranks on ranks.’"(al-Anfal, 8/9)
Revelation 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon (Lucifer); and the dragon fought and his angels,

From Enoch/Idris:

20:1 These are the names of the angels who watch.
20:2 Uriel, one of the holy angels, he it is who is over clamour and terror.
20:3 Raphael, one of the holy angels, who is over the spirits of men (ch. 40:9).
20:4 Raguel, one of the holy angels, who inflicts punishment on the world and the luminaries.
20:5 Michael, one of the holy angels, who PRESIDING over human virtue, COMMANDS the nations (Dan. 12:1; Sura 2:98).
20:6 Sarakiel, one of the holy angels, who presides over the spirits of the children of men that transgress.
20:7 Gabriel, one of the holy angels (Luke 1:19), who is over Ikisat, over Paradise (the place "para-dice" - "in order to be told": all they did), and over the cherubim.

"Is it not enough for you that Allah should help you with three thousand angels (specially) sent down?"(Aal-i Imran, 3/124)
Led by Prince Michael/Christ, the Lord of the Sabaoth (Lord of the heavenly host/Commander of the angels/army, aka "the eagles").

"In the case of those who say "Our Lord is Allah", and further, stand straight and steadfast, the angels descend on them (from time to time): "Fear ye not!" (they suggest) "Nor grieve! but receive the Glad Tidings of the Garden (of Bliss), the which ye were promised! We are your protectors in this life and in the Hereafter..."(Fussilat, 24/30-31)

God says In the Quran repeatedly that the angels are nothing more than the servant of God

"They (angels) are (but) servants raised to honor. They speak not before He speaks, and they act (in all things) by His command." (al-Anbiya, 21/26-27)
How many so ever be the angels in the heavens, their intercession will avail nothing except after Allah has given leave for whom He pleases and that he is acceptable to Him." (an-Najm, 53/26)
Agreed. We are the Children of Whom/whom we choose to obey. And the Spirit-Beings/Souls/Angels/Jinns (Sons of God) that obey God are His.

Some people in Arabia used to believe that angels are daughters of God but God refutes this claim and does not mention the Angels being his sons or correcting their belief.

(37:150) Did We create the angels as females the while they witnessed?”
(37:151) Behold, it is one of their fabrications that they say:
(37:152) “Allah has begotten.” They are liars!
(37:153) Did He choose daughters rather than sons?
(37:154) What is the matter with you that you make such strange judgements?
That's why the Angels are referred to as "the Sons of God", and why God (Allah) is referred to as their Father/Creator. God, Who is a Spirit-Being, CREATES, He does NOT procreate, mix with humans, have a consort (there is no "queen of heaven"), etc.

Coming to resurrection and crucifixion of Prophet Isa A.S 19:34 does not prove that Prophet Isa died on the cross and then he was resurrected after three nights. Allah says in the Quran
Anyone who makes that false claim is lying, and is willfully choosing to believe the words of liars rather than the Word of God and His Prophets. Anyone who continues to do such things, unless they repent and come to their senses, will burn for it, exactly as its says in the Koran (Quran) at least 300 times.

The Articles of Faith in which one "True in Faith" (a moslem/muslim) must believe:-

1. God
2. His Angels
3. His Messengers
4. His revealed Books
5. The Day of Resurrection
6. Divine Preordainments (Prophecy)
i.e. whatever God has ordained must come to pass.

"Islam" teaches THE LIE that Jesus wasn't crucified, because they are BLIND to the FACT that Jesus was the mortal human son of Mary, that was incarnated/strengthened by The IMMORTAL Messiah/Christ.

Further, and to show how pervasive this psychosis really is, these so-called Muslims (unbelievers really) base their entire argument AGAINST God's Word on their misinterpretation of ONE verse, because they refuse to read, carefully study and apply God's Law.

In God's Law, it clearly states that the truth of a matter can ONLY be decided out of the mouth of MULTIPLE witnesses, NEVER on the basis of only one witness (Deut. 17:6, 19:15)

That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-
Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-
— Quran 4:157–158 [11]
If Prophet Isa A.S was not Killed and nor was he Crucified than how did he die?
Exactly. The Prophet Isa (Jesus) is quoted as having said when he was only a child that he would die, and yet people have the audacity to call him a liar, because of their own ignorance of what an immortal spirit-Being is and what a mortal human son is.

Again, here are the words straight from the mouth of Isa (Jesus) in the Koran (Quran) PROPHESYING HIS OWN DEATH AND RESURRECTION FROM THE DEAD BY GOD:

Sura 19:33-34
19:33. So Peace is on me the day I was born, THE DAY THAT I DIE, AND THE DAY THAT I SHALL BE RAISED UP TO LIFE (again)!"
19:34. SUCH (WAS) JESUS THE SON OF MARY: (IT IS) A STATEMENT OF TRUTH, about which they (vainly) dispute.

The passage even warns that people will vainly dispute this obvious statement of truth, just as you are trying to do.

The Koran (Quran) further CONFIRMS the crucifixion and resurrection in the following verse as well:

Sura 6:122. Can he who was dead (Jesus – Matt. 27:50-54, Mark 15:37-39, Luke 23:44-47, John 19:30-42) to whom We gave life (Matt. 28:5-10, Mark 16:6-8, Luke 24, John 20), and a Light (John 3:19-21, John 8:3) with which he (Christ) walks amongst men, be like him who is in the depths of darkness (Lucifer), from which he can never come out? Thus to those without Faith their own deeds seem pleasing (Deut. 4:28, Matt. 6:5).

John 1:10 He (The Messiah/Christ) was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world (humans) knew him not (could not SEE him inside the body of Jesus).

As a further testament to the amazing arrogance/ignorance and insanity of so-called Muslims, in denying the overwhelming evidence found in the Koran (Quran) regarding the curcifixion and resurrection of JESUS (Isa), the mortal human son of Mary whom God Himself raised, we have over three dozen other verses/ayats COMMANDING us to read The Law (Old Covenant) and Gospel (New Covenant), which prophesy and chronicle the virgin birth, crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus.

Only a complete fool, who doesn't want to serve Allah and thus has a death wish and wants to find themselves in The Fire on Judgment Day, would reject this mountain of evidence proving they do NOT correctly understand Sura 4:157. It APPEARED as if they crucified The Messiah/Christ when they actually crucified Jesus BECAUSE IT'S IMPOSSIBLE FOR ANYONE OTHER THAN GOD TO KILL AN IMMORTAL SPIRIT-BEING/SOUL (Matt. 10:28).

The Messiah/Christ is NOT A HUMAN.

Anyone who doesn't believe the crucifixion and resurrection happened is an UNBELIEVER/INFIDEL. Period. There is no other way around it, and making any other partners with God's Word to vainly dispute this obvious truth is INSANE.

Allah raised Prophet Isa A.S unto the heavens when he was alive and not dead.
Nonsense. God doesn't need to raise the living; God only raises the dead to be among the living. Allah is THE God of the living, NOT the "dead".

"He is not the God of the "Dead", but the God of the Living: ye therefore do greatly err". -- Isa (Jesus) in the Gospel of Jesus, as recorded by Mark (verse 12:27).

We can interpret this to mean that he was not dead after the apparent crucifixion and later Mary Magdalene and other women went to his grave they found the tomb empty because he was not dead and they met Prophet Isa A.S who was then raised to heaven while he was Alive and that will make the biblical narrative more logical.
No, it wouldn't, and no, no one in their right-mind can interpret it that way. What you've suggested would make the Biblical narrative a lie, requiring us to disregard numerous eyewitness accounts (including at least 121 secular references) to the life, crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus, the hundreds of people who saw the resurrected body of Jesus perform supernatural appearances and miracles. It would also require us to call both God and His Anointed One (Messiah/Christ) liars, which is totally satanic.

Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and [to] my God, and your God. Mary Magdalene came and told the disciples that she had seen the Lord, and [that] he had spoken these things unto her. Then the same day at evening, being the first [day] of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace [be] unto you. And when he had so said, he showed unto them [his] hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord.

-- from the Gospel of Jesus, as recorded by the Apostle/Disciple John (v. 20:17-20)

But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus (Twin), was not with them when Jesus came. The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe. And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: [then] came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace [be] unto you. Then saith he to Thomas, Reach here thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach here thy hand, and thrust [it] into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

-- from the Gospel of Jesus, as recorded by the Apostle/Disciple John (v. 20:23-26)

According to the Islamic perspective He will come again in the final years to kill the Antichrist and Fulfill his duties as the True Messiah. Also 19:34 could be a reference to the day of Resurrection when all will be raised to life again as is referred to in several places in the Quran
There should be no such thing as an "Islamic perspective", which is again mixing the teachings of men with The Word of God (shirk).

The Bible never uses the term "Antichrist" in the singular form; instead it is only used in the plural form, because this entire world is antichrist (against Christ). The entire "Islamic perspective" on the crucifixion and resurrection is itself so obviously satanic and antichrist that it has spawned almost 2 billion antichrists, who run around spreading the lie that Jesus didn't die on the cross, nor was raised by God again to life, even though God tells us the truth that the crucifixion and resurrection definitely did occur.

Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ the Nazarite, whom ye crucified, WHOM GOD RAISED FROM THE DEAD, [even] by him doth this man stand here before you whole. THIS is the Stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the Head of the Corner (Matt. 21:42). Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.”

--The Acts of the Apostles, 4:10-12

And before you go on and say this is man made doctrine I have not used a single hadith reference here all from the Quran and Quran has not been altered in the past 1400 years.
First, you are using man-made doctrine in an attempt to ignore the Word of God, whether you "see" it or not. And secondly, according to the Koran (Quran) itself, it has been altered (see Sura 6:112-115, Sura 22:52-55, Sura 25:31, previous cited), including the initial alteration made to it between the time it was given to Mohammad and the time it was actually published.

A few obvious examples include:

Sura 2:125 and 2:127, where Ishmael was inserted in place of Isaac, altering the original Koran (Quran).

Sura 3:96, where the valley of Baca (the valley of tears -- located near Jerusalem -- Psalm 84:6) was intentionally changed to Mecca (even though b's and m's are not interchangeable in Arabic).

Sura 20:85 and 20:95, where the descriptive title "samiri", which means "overseer", was left untranslated, to create a mythical character.

Sura 48:25, where makkah (which means physical altercation/confrontation) was deceitfully changed to "Mecca".

Sura 62:9, where the gathering for the day of preparation before the Sabbath (Al Sabt) was changed to the day of "assembly", along with other additions.

There are also the numerous additions of "O Muhammad" to many of the English translations/versions of the Koran (Quran), which do not appear in the original.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birmingham_Quran_manuscript#:~:text=The Birmingham Quran manuscript is,56 BH and 25 AH).
The oldest manuscripts of the Quran with no differences from the current Quran proof that quran hasn't been altered.
As above please. Claiming the Koran (Quran) hasn't been altered is calling God a liar, because God Himself says in the Koran that He NEVER sends a Messenger/Apostle that Satan/Iblis doesn't come along and throw in some vanity/alteration/suggestion. Do not make the mistake of making Wikipedia a partner with God and His Word.

Believe God and His Word ONLY. God's Word has layers upon layers of error correction built into it, making any suggestions/alterations thrown in by Satan/Iblis stick out like a sore thumb. That is why His Word can NEVER be corrupted, no matter what puny humans try to do based on satanic suggestions to add or take away from God's Holy Scriptures.[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]
 






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arhur12

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Thank-you. Agreed. What has been shared with you and others is the truth about the Bible and the Koran (Quran), which humans reject, because they have no love for the truth.

The organized religion that calls itself "Judaism" is based upon the Talmud, i.e. the "traditions of the fathers/elders" which make the Commandments of God of NO effect. The Talmud is condemned in The Law (see Deut. 4:2, 12:8, 12:32) and again in the Gospel (Matt. 15:3, 9) and again in the Koran (Quran), which refers its readers back to The Law and the Gospel for that critically important message.

The Talmud is therefore satanic, as should be self-evident, because it mixes man-made traditions and cultural beliefs with the Word of God (shirk).

https://vigilantcitizenforums.com/threads/them-which-say-they-are-jews-but-are-not.6663/

The organized religion that deceitfully calls itself "Christianity" is doing exactly the same thing, with all of their made up rules, rites, rituals and religious superstitions, led by the Roman Catholic church (the Great Whore), with its openly advertised idolatry (shirk), infamous criminal priesthood, and its shadow government and military unit (the Jesuits), which hold the purse-strings to the entire international business.

https://vigilantcitizenforums.com/threads/revelation-17-the-great-whore.6778/


The exact same thing is going on in the organized religion that deceitfully calls itself "Islam", which has made a partner with God's Word out of the fabricated man-made Hadith (the traditions/sayings of the fathers/elders). Every single so-called Muslim who believes, claims or promotes the Hadith is committing shirk in doing so, whether they see it or not.

The Hadith is the advertising brochure for "Islam", which tries to replace God's Law -- found only in the first five books of the Bible -- with "Sharia law", which adds and takes away from God's Law, thereby breaking God's Commandments. It's impossible to do God's Will whilst openly defying Him and breaking His Law. The Hadith is then used to discredit both The Law and the Gospel, and wrongly deify Mohammad, placing the fabricated writings that are allegedly his teachings not equal to, but ABOVE the Word of God.

https://vigilantcitizenforums.com/threads/the-top-10-myths-that-dominate-islam.8814/


Agreed. And the reason God allows these few and far-between errors is to test us, to see if we genuinely are in search of the truth or whether we have a disease in our heart (and mind) and are thus easily misled by Lucifer/Satan/Iblis and his organized religions. Of course God Himself told us this in both the Bible and the Koran (Quran), warning us that everytime He sends His Message, through one of His Prophets or Messengers/Apostles, Lucifer/Satan/Iblis comes behind and gets one of his glove puppets to throw in a suggestion, to serve as a trial.

In the Old Covenant (from the Book of Enoch/Idris):

THE INCORRECT WRITING OF GOD'S WORDS PROPHESIED

Enoch 104:8 They shall speak evil things; they shall utter falsehood (ch. 97:2); create a great creation (false religions and religious traditions and technology); and compose books of their own words (books of man-made legislation, rules, etc.; books of the religious traditions of their fathers; novels; etc.; etc.; etc. - ch. 68:13).

In the New Covenant:

2 Thessalonians 2:7-12
2:7 For the mystery (Rev. 17:5) of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way.
2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the [Sword of the] Spirit from his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness [of the enlightening] of his coming:
2:9 [Even the Wicked], whose coming is the work of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of The Truth, that they might be saved.
2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not The Truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

And in the Koran (Quran):

Sura 6:112-115
6:112. Likewise We made for every Messenger an enemy,- evil ones among men and Beings (human+beings), inspiring each other with flowery discourses by way of deception. If thy Lord had so planned, they would not have done it: so leave them and their inventions alone.
6:113. To such (deceit) let the hearts of those incline, who have no faith in the Hereafter: let them delight in it, and let them earn from it what they may.
6:114. Say: "Shall I seek for judge other than "I AM"? - when He it is Who hath sent unto you The Book (Bible), explained in detail." They, to whom We have given The Book, know full well, that it hath been sent down from thy Lord in truth. NEVER be then one of those who doubt (Sura 3:1-3, 15:9, 32:23).
6:115. The Word of thy Lord doth find its FULFILLMENT in TRUTH and in JUSTICE: none can change His Words: for He is the One who heareth and knoweth all.

Sura 22:52-55
22:52. Never did We send an Apostle or a Prophet before thee, but, when he framed a desire, Satan threw some (vanity) into his desire: but "I AM" will cancel anything (vain) that Satan throws in, and "I AM" WILL CONFIRM (AND ESTABLISH) HIS SIGNS (Sura 32:23): for "I AM" is full of Knowledge and Wisdom:
22:53. THAT HE MAY MAKE THE SUGGESTIONS THROWN IN BY SATAN, BUT A TRIAL FOR THOSE IN WHOSE HEARTS IS A DISEASE AND WHO ARE HARDENED OF HEART: verily the wrong-doers are in a schism far (from the Truth):
22:54. And that those on whom Knowledge has been bestowed may learn that the (Koran) is the Truth from thy Lord, and that they may believe therein, and their hearts may be made humbly (open) to it: for verily "I AM" is the Guide, of those who believe, to The Straight Way (Matthew 7:13-14, John 14:6, Sura 3:55).
22:55. Those who reject Faith will not cease to be in doubt concerning (Revelation) until The Hour (of Judgment) comes suddenly upon them, or there comes to them the Penalty of a Day of Disaster.

Sura 25:31. Thus have We made for every Prophet an enemy among the sinners: but enough is thy Lord to guide and to help.

There are literally layers, upon layers, upon layers of error correction built into the Bible, to ensure its Message of Truth can NEVER be corrupted by idiots and barbarians, which is why the Koran (Quran) assures us that NONE of God's Word can EVER be corrupted (rendered unusable).


How can something that was sent to CONFIRM the teachings in the previous, holy books somehow correct them? This is yet another LIE taught by the spiritually blind imams in "Islam", to mislead people AWAY from God and His Word.

A simple example of how twisted this satanic teaching really is would be the "trinity". NOWHERE in the Bible does it directly or indirectly teach that God (Allah) is a "trinity". In fact, there are HUNDREDS of verses in the Bible which make it crystal clear THERE IS NO TRINITY, and that the so-called Christian teachings about it are blasphemy.

By 610-632 BC, when Muhammad was given the Koran (Quran), sent down by God's Command by Prince Michael (Christ) through Gabriel (Dan. 10:21, 12:1, Sura 2:97-98), Roman Catholicism had spread throughout the known world, including into Arabia, where the Roman Catholic Meccans were trying to incorporate it into the tourist attraction now known as the "Kaba", which is NOT God's House nor was it built by Abraham, but instead was a very well-documented place of idol worship. Abraham never traveled to Mecca, nor did Hagar (the Egyptian) nor did Ishmael.

The Koran (Quran) rightly points out the satanic Roman Catholic tradition incorporating its Babylonian 3=1 deity is blasphemy and shirk, to keep people from falling for that LIE, but it is in no way "correcting" the Bible, which has always taught there is only ONE TRUE GOD.

One cannot "correct" something that wasn't wrong in the first place, nor can one correct and confirm something at the same time. Learn what the word CONFIRM means. It wouldn't hurt to also learn what the word CORRUPT means also. Both of these words are musused and abused in "Islam" to trick people into committing shirk.


But it does say exactly that -- that the Holy Spirit is Prince Michael/Christ -- in the Bible, which the Koran (Quran) COMMANDS its readers to read, carefully study, apply and NOT TO DOUBT.

The Hebrew word "Satan" means "the Opposer", because Lucifer/Satan/Iblis always lies/claims the opposite of what God tells us, for our own benefit (the truth). How obvious does it need to be that anyone who claims the true Bible has been lost or corrupted is working for Satan?



Whoever is an enemy to God and His angels and Apostles, to Gabriel AND Michael (Daniel 12:1; Rev. 12:7),- Lo! God is an enemy to those who reject Faith." (al-Baquara, 2/98)

From Christ's Revelation to John, 12:7-11
12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels (including Gabriel) fought against the dragon (Lucifer); and the dragon fought and his angels,
12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out to the Earth, and his angels (you - Luke 9:55) were cast out with him (Matthew 25:41).
12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and The Kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their (human) lives unto the death (John 12:25).


The Holy Spirit did bring the revelation from thy Lord (Christ/Prince Michael) THROUGH Gabriel.

Psalm 110:1 <A Psalm of David.> The "I AM" (Allah) said unto my Lord (Christ/Prince Michael), Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

1 Corinthians 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman [is] the man; and the head of Christ [is] God.

Sura 3:51. It is God Who is my Lord and your Lord (John 20:17) then worship Him. This is The Way that is Straight' (Matt.7:13-14, John 14:6)."

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and [to] my God, and your God.


Correct.


That was never said nor implied.

What was shared is the Scripture that proves the Holy Spirit/Mediator between God and men is the immortal Spirit-Being Prince Michael/Christ, Who incarnated/strengthened the human son of Mary, known as Jesus. Together they formed the human+Being known as Jesus+Christ, sometimes worded in the Koran (Quran) as The Messiah (Christ) son of Mary (i.e. Christ-Jesus).


Revelation 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon (Lucifer); and the dragon fought and his angels,

From Enoch/Idris:

20:1 These are the names of the angels who watch.
20:2 Uriel, one of the holy angels, he it is who is over clamour and terror.
20:3 Raphael, one of the holy angels, who is over the spirits of men (ch. 40:9).
20:4 Raguel, one of the holy angels, who inflicts punishment on the world and the luminaries.
20:5 Michael, one of the holy angels, who PRESIDING over human virtue, COMMANDS the nations (Dan. 12:1; Sura 2:98).
20:6 Sarakiel, one of the holy angels, who presides over the spirits of the children of men that transgress.
20:7 Gabriel, one of the holy angels (Luke 1:19), who is over Ikisat, over Paradise (the place "para-dice" - "in order to be told": all they did), and over the cherubim.



Led by Prince Michael/Christ, the Lord of the Sabaoth (Lord of the heavenly host/Commander of the angels/army, aka "the eagles").


Agreed. We are the Children of Whom/whom we choose to obey. And the Spirit-Beings/Souls/Angels/Jinns (Sons of God) that obey God are His.


That's why the Angels are referred to as "the Sons of God", and why God (Allah) is referred to as their Father/Creator. God, Who is a Spirit-Being, CREATES, He does NOT procreate, mix with humans, have a consort (there is no "queen of heaven"), etc.


Anyone who makes that false claim is lying, and is willfully choosing to believe the words of liars rather than the Word of God and His Prophets. Anyone who continues to do such things, unless they repent and come to their senses, will burn for it, exactly as its says in the Koran (Quran) at least 300 times.

The Articles of Faith in which one "True in Faith" (a moslem/muslim) must believe:-

1. God
2. His Angels
3. His Messengers
4. His revealed Books
5. The Day of Resurrection
6. Divine Preordainments (Prophecy)
i.e. whatever God has ordained must come to pass.

"Islam" teaches THE LIE that Jesus wasn't crucified, because they are BLIND to the FACT that Jesus was the mortal human son of Mary, that was incarnated/strengthened by The IMMORTAL Messiah/Christ.

Further, and to show how pervasive this psychosis really is, these so-called Muslims (unbelievers really) base their entire argument AGAINST God's Word on their misinterpretation of ONE verse, because they refuse to read, carefully study and apply God's Law.

In God's Law, it clearly states that the truth of a matter can ONLY be decided out of the mouth of MULTIPLE witnesses, NEVER on the basis of only one witness (Deut. 17:6, 19:15)


Exactly. The Prophet Isa (Jesus) is quoted as having said when he was only a child that he would die, and yet people have the audacity to call him a liar, because of their own ignorance of what an immortal spirit-Being is and what a mortal human son is.

Again, here are the words straight from the mouth of Isa (Jesus) in the Koran (Quran) PROPHESYING HIS OWN DEATH AND RESURRECTION FROM THE DEAD BY GOD:

Sura 19:33-34
19:33. So Peace is on me the day I was born, THE DAY THAT I DIE, AND THE DAY THAT I SHALL BE RAISED UP TO LIFE (again)!"
19:34. SUCH (WAS) JESUS THE SON OF MARY: (IT IS) A STATEMENT OF TRUTH, about which they (vainly) dispute.

The passage even warns that people will vainly dispute this obvious statement of truth, just as you are trying to do.

The Koran (Quran) further CONFIRMS the crucifixion and resurrection in the following verse as well:

Sura 6:122. Can he who was dead (Jesus – Matt. 27:50-54, Mark 15:37-39, Luke 23:44-47, John 19:30-42) to whom We gave life (Matt. 28:5-10, Mark 16:6-8, Luke 24, John 20), and a Light (John 3:19-21, John 8:3) with which he (Christ) walks amongst men, be like him who is in the depths of darkness (Lucifer), from which he can never come out? Thus to those without Faith their own deeds seem pleasing (Deut. 4:28, Matt. 6:5).

John 1:10 He (The Messiah/Christ) was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world (humans) knew him not (could not SEE him inside the body of Jesus).

As a further testament to the amazing arrogance/ignorance and insanity of so-called Muslims, in denying the overwhelming evidence found in the Koran (Quran) regarding the curcifixion and resurrection of JESUS (Isa), the mortal human son of Mary whom God Himself raised, we have over three dozen other verses/ayats COMMANDING us to read The Law (Old Covenant) and Gospel (New Covenant), which prophesy and chronicle the virgin birth, crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus.

Only a complete fool, who doesn't want to serve Allah and thus has a death wish and wants to find themselves in The Fire on Judgment Day, would reject this mountain of evidence proving they do NOT correctly understand Sura 4:157. It APPEARED as if they crucified The Messiah/Christ when they actually crucified Jesus BECAUSE IT'S IMPOSSIBLE FOR ANYONE OTHER THAN GOD TO KILL AN IMMORTAL SPIRIT-BEING/SOUL (Matt. 10:28).

The Messiah/Christ is NOT A HUMAN.

Anyone who doesn't believe the crucifixion and resurrection happened is an UNBELIEVER/INFIDEL. Period. There is no other way around it, and making any other partners with God's Word to vainly dispute this obvious truth is INSANE.


Nonsense. God doesn't need to raise the living; God only raises the dead to be among the living. Allah is THE God of the living, NOT the "dead".

"He is not the God of the "Dead", but the God of the Living: ye therefore do greatly err". -- Isa (Jesus) in the Gospel of Jesus, as recorded by Mark (verse 12:27).


No, it wouldn't, and no, no one in their right-mind can interpret it that way. What you've suggested would make the Biblical narrative a lie, requiring us to disregard numerous eyewitness accounts (including at least 121 secular references) to the life, crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus, the hundreds of people who saw the resurrected body of Jesus perform supernatural appearances and miracles. It would also require us to call both God and His Anointed One (Messiah/Christ) liars, which is totally satanic.

Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and [to] my God, and your God. Mary Magdalene came and told the disciples that she had seen the Lord, and [that] he had spoken these things unto her. Then the same day at evening, being the first [day] of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace [be] unto you. And when he had so said, he showed unto them [his] hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord.

-- from the Gospel of Jesus, as recorded by the Apostle/Disciple John (v. 20:17-20)

But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus (Twin), was not with them when Jesus came. The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe. And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: [then] came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace [be] unto you. Then saith he to Thomas, Reach here thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach here thy hand, and thrust [it] into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

-- from the Gospel of Jesus, as recorded by the Apostle/Disciple John (v. 20:23-26)


There should be no such thing as an "Islamic perspective", which is again mixing the teachings of men with The Word of God (shirk).

The Bible never uses the term "Antichrist" in the singular form; instead it is only used in the plural form, because this entire world is antichrist (against Christ). The entire "Islamic perspective" on the crucifixion and resurrection is itself so obviously satanic and antichrist that it has spawned almost 2 billion antichrists, who run around spreading the lie that Jesus didn't die on the cross, nor was raised by God again to life, even though God tells us the truth that the crucifixion and resurrection definitely did occur.

Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ the Nazarite, whom ye crucified, WHOM GOD RAISED FROM THE DEAD, [even] by him doth this man stand here before you whole. THIS is the Stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the Head of the Corner (Matt. 21:42). Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.”

--The Acts of the Apostles, 4:10-12


First, you are using man-made doctrine in an attempt to ignore the Word of God, whether you "see" it or not. And secondly, according to the Koran (Quran) itself, it has been altered (see Sura 6:112-115, Sura 22:52-55, Sura 25:31, previous cited), including the initial alteration made to it between the time it was given to Mohammad and the time it was actually published.

A few obvious examples include:

Sura 2:125 and 2:127, where Ishmael was inserted in place of Isaac, altering the original Koran (Quran).

Sura 3:96, where the valley of Baca (the valley of tears -- located near Jerusalem -- Psalm 84:6) was intentionally changed to Mecca (even though b's and m's are not interchangeable in Arabic).

Sura 20:85 and 20:95, where the descriptive title "samiri", which means "overseer", was left untranslated, to create a mythical character.

Sura 48:25, where makkah (which means physical altercation/confrontation) was deceitfully changed to "Mecca".

Sura 62:9, where the gathering for the day of preparation before the Sabbath (Al Sabt) was changed to the day of "assembly", along with other additions.

There are also the numerous additions of "O Muhammad" to many of the English translations/versions of the Koran (Quran), which do not appear in the original.



As above please. Claiming the Koran (Quran) hasn't been altered is calling God a liar, because God Himself says in the Koran that He NEVER sends a Messenger/Apostle that Satan/Iblis doesn't come along and throw in some vanity/alteration/suggestion. Do not make the mistake of making Wikipedia a partner with God and His Word.

Believe God and His Word ONLY. God's Word has layers upon layers of error correction built into it, making any suggestions/alterations thrown in by Satan/Iblis stick out like a sore thumb. That is why His Word can NEVER be corrupted, no matter what puny humans try to do based on satanic suggestions to add or take away from God's Holy Scriptures.
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First of all you provided no verse from the Quran which would prove your claims about Angel Michael A.S give me proof from the Quran that one verse doesn't prove anything other than both Angel Gabriel and Angel Michael A.S are exalted angels of God (Peace be upon them) secondly those verses do not prove that Quran has been altered
2:125 and 2:127 are referring to something that isn't mentioned in the bible but that does not make it incorrect Prophet Ishmael Pbuh was known as the father of arabs proof from the bible
The child grew and was weaned, and on the day Isaac was weaned Abraham held a great feast. But Sarah saw that the son whom Hagar the Egyptian had borne to Abraham was mocking, and she said to Abraham, “Get rid of that slave woman and her son, for that woman’s son will never share in the inheritance with my son Isaac.”
The matter distressed Abraham greatly because it concerned his son. But God said to him, “Do not be so distressed about the boy and your slave woman. Listen to whatever Sarah tells you, because it is through Isaac that your offspring[b] will be reckoned. I will make the son of the slave into a nation also, because he is your offspring.”
Early the next morning Abraham took some food and a skin of water and gave them to Hagar. He set them on her shoulders and then sent her off with the boy. She went on her way and wandered in the Desert of Beersheba.
When the water in the skin was gone, she put the boy under one of the bushes. Then she went off and sat down about a bowshot away, for she thought, “I cannot watch the boy die.” And as she sat there, she[c] began to sob.
God heard the boy crying, and the angel of God called to Hagar from heaven and said to her, “What is the matter, Hagar? Do not be afraid; God has heard the boy crying as he lies there. Lift the boy up and take him by the hand, for I will make him into a great nation.”
Then God opened her eyes and she saw a well of water. So she went and filled the skin with water and gave the boy a drink.
God was with the boy as he grew up. He lived in the desert and became an archer. While he was living in the Desert of Paran, his mother got a wife for him from Egypt. Genesis 21:8-21
The desert of Paran has been identified as referring to "Hejaaz" old name of Saudi Arabia. Deuteronomy 1:1 identifies Paran as being east of Jordan River

Hejaz is also located east of Jordan River
images (1).pngimages (1).png
Also A question here According to Genesis Prophet Ishmael A.S was 13-14 years old when Prophet Isaac A.S was born so mind explaining why the verses from 8-21 seem to be referring to an infant or toddler? if he was a teenager how did Hagar A.S "put the boy under one of the bushes." Can a teenage boy of 13-14 years old be put under one of the Bushes? can a teenage boy not take care of himself? Why did she have to Put him under the bush? Prophet Ishmael A.S was crying according to the genesis why was he not looking for water with his mother? again " Lift the boy up and take him by the hand, for I will make him into a great nation" seem to be referring to a Toddler or infant not a teenage boy of 13-14 years of age. This proves that Prophet Ishmael A.S was an infant or toddler when Hagar and Ishmael were sent off and the biblical narrative has been altered. I particularly want an answer to this.
3:96 the Arabic texts still contains the word "Bekkah" so where is the alteration? The original Arabic text has not been altered also at the time of the Prophet pbuh b and m were interchangeable in Arabic but even if you ignore that The Arabic text has not been altered the so called alterations exist in the Translations which can be incorrect but not the original Arabic text.

20:85 and 20:95 Explanation:

"The word sounds more of an appellation than of a personal name. If we look to old Egyptian, we have Shemer, a stranger, and foreigner. As the Israelites had just left Egypt, they might quite well have among them an Egyptian Hebrew bearing that nickname. And it is recorded by the rabbis that the initiative in the matter of the calf worship was taken not by the Israelites but the Egyptians who had joined them at the time of the Exodus, and who were the source of a great deal of trouble to Moses and Israelites. (JE. III, P. 509). – Tafsīru’l-Qur’ān, ‘Abdu’l-Mājid Daryābādī, 1st ed., vol. III, (Karachi: Daru’l-Ishā‘at, 1991), p.113-4"
Shemer in the bible he could be any one of the Israelites.
  1. the owner of the hill where the city of Samaria was built
  2. a Merarite Levite, son of Mahli and father of Bani
  3. an Asherite, son of Heber and father of Ahi, Rohgah, Jehubbah, and Aram. Also 'Shomer'
  4. a Benjamite, son of Elpaal and builder of the towns of Ono and Lo

The Mystical figure often associated with Samiri who is known as a magician is not mentioned in the Quran that is more of a later addition which is not even recognized by many scholars The Quran only says that Samiri led israelites astray. So this again does not prove that Quran is altered.
48:25 again The Arabic Text does not include the word Makkah the word used is AL-MASJID-AL-HARAM that refers to Sulay Hudaubiah when Prophet Muhammad A.S and his companions were not allowed to perform the Pilgrimage by Kuffar.
48_25.png
Where is Makkah in the Arabic text?
62:9 Where is the proof that it does not refer to the arabic name "Jumah" for Friday The day Muslims have special congregations for salat-al-jum'aah and it was altered from Al-sabt? Give me proof from the Quran or historical accounts that it was altered.
The additions of O Muhammad are again only in the English Text not the Arabic Text The original Arabic Text remains unaltered.
The verses from surah Al-Anam Are about the Quran not the bible remove that bible you added in parenthesis in 6:114 that is your own addition and then read. The verses are referring to how demons try to falsify the truth (Quran) but they will not be able to change the word of Allah (Quran) because Allah will protect it.

Indeed, it is We who sent down the message [i.e., the Qur’ān], and indeed, We will be its guardian. 15:9

I can explain the verses of sura 22 but I will have to use "Asbab e Nuzul" or causes of revelation which you will call man-made doctrine so I won't bother
the verse you quoted from sura 25 does not prove that Quran is altered in only states that Allah is the Guide who will lead us to The truth
19:34 does not refer to crucifixion or ressurection of Prophet Isa A.S if you actually paid attention to The Quran The Word Raised alive here refers to The day of "Resurrection" When all creatures will be resurrected after their death this has been used commonly in the Quran and actually 6:122 which You misunderstood to be about Prophet Isa A.S because you are looking at the verses of Quran to prove your own beliefs is not about Cruxifixion or Ressurection
Can those who had been dead, to whom We gave life and a light with which they can walk among people, be compared to those in complete darkness from which they can never emerge?1 That is how the misdeeds of the disbelievers have been made appealing to them.6:122
If you read this with context than you will understand that this is a comparison of a believer to a non believer and has nothing to do with Jesus Christ the previous verses mention how disbelievers try to lead people astray and that we should ignore them because everything they say is a lie and their own invention there is no mention of Prophet Isa A.S in the preceding or succeeding ayats so your claim is fallacious. The Ayah is using metaphors of light and life for "guidance" and ignorance is compared with "darkness" in the same verse.
I won't try to explain the verses of the Bible because I am only Concerned with Quran for now and neither do I have the time for this now.


I won't be answering any of your questions because as I already told you I have exams from 23rd of June and also you seem to be looking at the ayats from your own biased lense so there is no meaning in dragging this because none of us are going to agree.
Peace.
 






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A Freeman

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First of all you provided no verse from the Quran which would prove your claims about Angel Michael A.S give me proof from the Quran that one verse doesn't prove anything other than both Angel Gabriel and Angel Michael A.S are exalted angels of God (Peace be upon them)
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Actually, you were given dozens and dozens of verses, from the Koran (Quran), you just decided to ignore them. Please see a few examples again below, all of which direct readers of the Koran (Quran) to read, carefully study and apply what it says in the Bible:

References to The Torah and The Gospel in The Koran (Quran)
(more than 30)


Suras 2:53, 2:87-93, 3:1-3, 3:48-50, 4:54, 5:46-50, 6:91-92, 6:154-157, 7:157, 9:111, 11:17, 15:9-10, 17:2-4, 21:48, 23:20, 23:49, 25:35, 28:1-3, 32:23, 35:25-32, 37:117, 40:53, 40:70, 41:45, 42:14-17, 45:16, 46:12, 46:30, 48:29, 53:36-47, 57:25-29, 61:6, 78:2

References to the Koran (Quran) being sent to CONFIRM what came before it, i.e. the Old Covenant and New Covenant, NOT to start some new organized religion (some repeats from the list above):

Sura 2:97-98, 3:1-3, 4:47, 5:51, 6:92-94, 6:154-157, 10:37, 12:111, 22:52, 35:31, 46:12, 61:6-7

secondly those verses do not prove that Quran has been altered
If you would have taken the time to study what's been shared for your benefit (and everyone else's too), instead of having a knee-jerk reaction and attempting to justify being part of one of the many sects of "Islam" (which is condemned in the Koran (Quran), you would have noticed that indeed, all of those verses have been examined in great detail, confirming they have been altered.

2:125 and 2:127 are referring to something that isn't mentioned in the bible but that does not make it incorrect Prophet Ishmael Pbuh was known as the father of arabs proof from the bible
Sura 2:125 and 2:127 ARE in the Bible though, and discussed in much greater detail than in the Koran (Quran), and prove beyond any reasonable doubt that the Roman Catholic Meccans changed the name Isaac in the original Koran to Ishmael, to continue tourism through pagan Mecca, with their new religion that is also condemned in the Koran.

Here are those verses in their original form, translated into English:-

King of kings' Bible - Sura 2:125-127
2:125. Remember We made The House a place of assembly for men and a place of safety and take ye The Station of Abraham (Mt. Moriah - Gen. 22:2) as a place of prayer and We Covenanted with Abraham and ISAAC (Gen. 17:21), that they should sanctify My House for those who compass it round, or use it as a retreat, or bow, or prostrate themselves (there, in prayer).
2:126. And remember Abraham said: "My Lord, make this a City of PEACE (Jeru-SALEM in Hebrew), and feed its people with fruits,- such of them as believe God and in the Last Day." He said: "(Yea), and such as reject Faith,- for a while will I grant them their pleasure, but will soon drive them to the torment of Fire,- an evil destination (indeed)!"
2:127. And remember Abraham and ISAAC (Gen. 17:21, 22:2; Sura 37:101-102, 112-113) raised the foundations of The House (with this prayer): "Our Lord! Accept (this service) from us: For Thou art the All-Hearing, the All-Knowing.

The name "Mecca" does NOT mean "city of peace" in Arabic or any other language. The name JERU-SALEM does, in fact, mean "city of peace", in Hebrew.

Further, the Koran (Quran) itself proves that this alteration took place, and that the Roman Catholic Meccans who altered it didn't realize that there was another reference in the Koran (Quran) proving it was Isaac who Abraham was told to sacrifice, NOT Ishmael.

37:100. O my Lord! Grant me (Abraham) a righteous (son)!"
37:101. So We gave him the GOOD NEWS of a boy (Isaac - 37:112; Gen. 17) ready to suffer and forbear.
37:102. Then, when (the son) reached (the age of) (serious) work with him, he (Abraham) said: "O my son! I see in vision that I offer thee in sacrifice (Gen. 22): now see what is thy view!" (The son) said: "O my father! Do as thou art commanded: thou will find me, if God so wills, one practising Patience and Constancy!"
37:103. So when they had both submitted their wills (to God), and he had laid him prostrate on his forehead (for sacrifice),
37:104. We called out to him, "O Abraham! (Gen. 22:11-12)
37:105. Thou hast already fulfilled the vision!" - Thus indeed do We reward those who do right.
37:106. For this was obviously a trial -
37:107. And We ransomed him with a momentous sacrifice:
37:108. And We left (this blessing) for him among generations (to come) in later times:
37:109. "Peace and salutation to Abraham!"
37:110. Thus indeed do We reward those who do right.
37:111. For he was one of our believing Servants.
37:112. And We gave him the GOOD NEWS of Isaac - a Prophet,- one of the Righteous.
37:113. We blessed him (Abraham) and Isaac: but of their progeny [the children of Jacob/Israel] are (some) that do right, and (some) that obviously do wrong, to their own souls.

Good news of ISAAC (which means "laughter" in Hebrew, because Sarah laughed when first receiving the good news prophecy that she would conceive a son in her old age (90 years old).

Of course there are other references in the Koran (Quran) to Abraham sacrificing Isaac as well.

Sura 6:84 And We gave Abraham Isaac and Jacob: all three We guided aright.

Sura 38:45-46 And commemorate Our servants Abraham, Isaac (not Ishmael), and Jacob, possessors of Power and Vision. Verily did We choose them for a special purpose - proclaiming the Message of the Hereafter. They were in Our sight, truly, of the company of the Elect and the good.

Sura 11:71 And We gave Abraham the glad tidings ("good news") of Isaac and after him Jacob / Israel (the son of Isaac).

Sura 15:54 "Good news" of a son.

Sura 51:28 Glad tidings ("good news") of a son (Isaac - "laughter" in Hebrew) and Sarah laughed being 90 years old (the word Isaac means laughter and because Sarah laughed the child was named "laughter" - Isaac in Hebrew).

We gave the "good news" means "news from God" via an angel messenger. No angel was ever sent to Abraham to announce the birth of Ishmael and this is born-out by all of the Holy Scriptures. He was born because of Sarai (Sarah) not because of God and was born to an Egyptian surrogate-mother, called Hagar.

All of the references of "good news" refer to Isaac and not to Ishmael, proving that the Meccans changed the name Isaac for Ishmael in Sura 2:125 and 127.

However Ishmael was blessed by God, later, when Abraham, who loved him, asked God to let Ishmael live before God (Genesis 17:18-20).

The child grew and was weaned, and on the day Isaac was weaned Abraham held a great feast. But Sarah saw that the son whom Hagar the Egyptian had borne to Abraham was mocking, and she said to Abraham, “Get rid of that slave woman and her son, for that woman’s son will never share in the inheritance with my son Isaac.”
The matter distressed Abraham greatly because it concerned his son. But God said to him, “Do not be so distressed about the boy and your slave woman. Listen to whatever Sarah tells you, because it is through Isaac that your offspring[b] will be reckoned. I will make the son of the slave into a nation also, because he is your offspring.”
Early the next morning Abraham took some food and a skin of water and gave them to Hagar. He set them on her shoulders and then sent her off with the boy. She went on her way and wandered in the Desert of Beersheba.
The historical account you are sharing is directly from the Bible, which is the ONLY historical source we have for the story of Abraham, Sarah, Isaac, Jacob/Israel, Ishmael and Hagar. The map below shows exactly where the wilderness of Beersheba is located, near Jerusalem, over 1000 km away from the area that became Mecca over 2000 years later.

1624298216994.png

Anyone who wants to pretend that Abraham sent Hagar and Ishmael off (when Ishmael was 14) with a day's ration of food and water, on a 1000+ km trip over several wilderness areas and the Sarawat mountain range, to go somehow find Mecca, which didn't exist at that time, has completely lost their minds.

Abraham's offspring, from Sarah, Hagar and from Keturah, were all born in and around Jerusalem, the area where Abraham was later buried (in Hebron, specifically).

Ishmael likewise lived and was buried not far from Jerusalem, where his sons were raised. Hagar went to Egypt (her homeland) to find a wife for Ishmael, so they couldn't have been far from Egypt either, as the map and Biblical historical account clearly state.

When the water in the skin was gone, she put the boy under one of the bushes. Then she went off and sat down about a bowshot away, for she thought, “I cannot watch the boy die.” And as she sat there, she[c] began to sob.
God heard the boy crying, and the angel of God called to Hagar from heaven and said to her, “What is the matter, Hagar? Do not be afraid; God has heard the boy crying as he lies there. Lift the boy up and take him by the hand, for I will make him into a great nation.”
Then God opened her eyes and she saw a well of water. So she went and filled the skin with water and gave the boy a drink.
God was with the boy as he grew up. He lived in the desert and became an archer. While he was living in the Desert of Paran, his mother got a wife for him from Egypt. Genesis 21:8-21
The desert of Paran has been identified as referring to "Hejaaz" old name of Saudi Arabia.
Identified by whom? By some spiritually blind "Islamic scholar"? There is no reference to "Hejaaz" anywhere in the Bible, which tells us exactly where the wilderness of Paran actually is (see map above). It obviously isn't anywhere near the area that would millenia later become Mecca, otherwise Hagar, the Egyptian, would not have been able to go to Egypt to find Ishmael a wife, nor would word have reached Ishmael in time for him to make it back to bury Abraham with Isaac, if Ishmael would have lived in the area that is now called Mecca.

Deuteronomy 1:1 identifies Paran as being east of Jordan River
As marked on the map above. And this is what Deuteronomy 1:1-2 actually says, along with another map confirming the area between the Jordan RIVER (which runs from North to South from the Syria-Lebanon border, through the Sea of Galilee, by the West bank, and on to the Dead Sea:

Deuteronomy 1:1-2
1:1 These [be] the words which Moses spoke unto all Israel on THIS side (the West-side) Jordan in the wilderness, in the plain over against the Red [sea], between Paran, and Tophel, and Laban, and Hazeroth, and Dizahab.
1:2 ([There are] eleven days' [journey] from Horeb by the way of mount Seir unto Kadeshbarnea.)

1624300446799.png

What is today called the "Gulf of Suez" (and the Gulf of Akaba too) is, in fact, part of the Red Sea.

Hejaz is also located east of Jordan River
View attachment 57881View attachment 57881
Also A question here According to Genesis Prophet Ishmael A.S was 13-14 years old when Prophet Isaac A.S was born so mind explaining why the verses from 8-21 seem to be referring to an infant or toddler? if he was a teenager how did Hagar A.S "put the boy under one of the bushes." Can a teenage boy of 13-14 years old be put under one of the Bushes?
can a teenage boy not take care of himself? Why did she have to Put him under the bush? "
That would depend upon the size of the teenage boy and the size of the bush/shrub. One thing for certain, the two of them certainly didn't travel over 1000 km on a day's ration of food and water, which were small enough for Hagar to carry on one shoulder.

Prophet Ishmael A.S was crying according to the genesis why was he not looking for water with his mother? again "
Hagar (the Egyptian) left Abraham and Sarah TWICE, both times traveling toward Egypt, NOT the non-existent town of Mecca. The first time was when Hagar was pregnant with Ishmael. Abram/Abraham was approximately 86 years old (see Gen. 12:4-8, and add 11 years to that from the information provided below) when Ishmael was born:

Genesis 16:3-12
16:3 And Sarai Abram's wife took Hagar her maid the Egyptian, after Abram had dwelt ten years in the land of Canaan, and gave her to her husband Abram to be his wife.
16:4 And he went in unto Hagar, and she conceived: and when she saw that she had conceived, her mistress [Sarai] was despised in her eyes.
16:5 And Sarai said unto Abram, My wrong [be] upon thee: I have given my maid into thy bosom; and when she saw that she had conceived, I was despised in her eyes: the "I AM" judge between me and thee.
16:6 But Abram said unto Sarai, Behold, thy maid [is] in thy hand; do to her as it pleaseth thee. And when Sarai dealt hardly with her, she fled from her face.
16:7 And the angel of the "I AM" found her by a fountain of water in the wilderness, BY THE FOUNTAIN IN THE WAY TO SHUR.
16:8 And he said, Hagar, Sarai's maid, whence camest thou? and where wilt thou go? And she said, I flee from the face of my mistress Sarai.
16:9 And the angel of the "I AM" said unto her, Return to thy mistress, and submit thyself under her hands.
16:10 And the angel of the "I AM" said unto her, I will multiply thy seed exceedingly, that it shall not be numbered for multitude.
16:11 And the angel of the "I AM" said unto her, Behold, thou [art] with child, and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the "I AM" hath heard thy affliction.
16:12 And he will be a wild man; his hand [will be] against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell to THE EAST OF ALL HIS BRETHREN (NOT over 1000 km to the South).

The toddler/infant referred to is ISAAC, born to Abraham and Sarah when Abraham was 100 years old. Please note well that although God blessed Ishmael, God's Covenant was with ISAAC, because it was Isaac that Abraham took to Mt. Moriah to be sacrificed.

Genesis 17:20-26
17:20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.
17:21 But My Covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year.
17:22 And He left off talking with him, and God went up from Abraham.
17:23 And Abraham took Ishmael his son, and all that were born in his house, and all that were bought with his money, every male among the men of Abraham's house; and circumcised the flesh of their foreskin in the selfsame day, as God had said unto him.
17:24 And Abraham [was] ninety years old and nine, when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin.
17:25 And Ishmael his son [was] thirteen years old, when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin.
17:26 In the selfsame day was Abraham circumcised, and Ishmael his son.

And here is where Hagar left the second time, when Ishmael was around 14 years of age (a year later, at a party commemorating Isaac being weaned):

Genesis 21:5-12
21:5 And Abraham was an hundred years old, when his son Isaac was born unto him.
21:6 And Sarah said, God hath made me to laugh, [so that] all that hear will laugh with me.
21:7 And she said, Who would have said unto Abraham, that Sarah should have given children suck? for I have born [him] a son in his old age.
21:8 And the child grew, and was weaned: and Abraham made a great feast the [same] day that Isaac was weaned.
21:9 And Sarah saw the son of Hagar the Egyptian, which she had born unto Abraham, mocking.
21:10 Wherefore she said unto Abraham, Cast out this bondwoman and her son: for the son of this bondwoman shall not be heir with my son, [even] with Isaac.
21:11 And the thing was very grievous in Abraham's sight because of his son.
21:12 And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for in Isaac shall thy seed be called [(I)saac's sons - Saxons].
21:13 And also of the son of the bondwoman will I make a nation, because he [is] thy seed.
21:14 And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and took bread, and a bottle of water, and gave [it] unto Hagar, putting [it] on her shoulder, and the child, and sent her away: and she departed, and wandered in the wilderness of Beersheba.
21:15 And the water was spent in the bottle, and she cast the child under one of the shrubs.

So we have both the location and the age of everyone involved, and NONE of them were ever within 1000 km of the area that would not become Mecca for another 2000+ years.

Lift the boy up and take him by the hand, for I will make him into a great nation" seem to be referring to a Toddler or infant not a teenage boy of 13-14 years of age.
According to whom? Where does it say that Hagar carried Ishmael, as a mother would do with a toddler? Would a mother "cast a toddler under a shrub/bush?

The only way someone could believe Ishmael wasn't 14 years old when he was sent with Hagar is if they believe the Biblical account found in God's Law -- which is the ONLY historical account there is of Abraham, and upon which the Koran (Quran) is based -- is a lie. There couldn't be anything more overtly satanic than that.

This proves that Prophet Ishmael A.S was an infant or toddler when Hagar and Ishmael were sent off and the biblical narrative has been altered. I particularly want an answer to this.
As above please. The Biblical account provided in God's Law is accurate and is the historical account upon which the original Koran (Quran) is actually based and sent to CONFIRM. The Biblical, historically accurate account provides in-depth details as to where everyone involved lived, died and was buried.

You're confusing Isaac (the infant, who had just been weaned at about 1 year of age) and Ishmael (the 14 year old boy mocking Isaac at the party Abraham gave to celebrate Isaac's weaning).

There is no historical nor archaeological evidence to support the spiritual, geographical and historical absurdity of claiming that Abraham, Hagar and Ishmael went to Mecca. And further, there's nothing in the Koran (Quran) to suggest that.

3:96 the Arabic texts still contains the word "Bekkah" so where is the alteration? The original Arabic text has not been altered also at the time of the Prophet pbuh b and m were interchangeable in Arabic but even if you ignore that The Arabic text has not been altered the so called alterations exist in the Translations which can be incorrect but not the original Arabic text.
Thank-you. Agreed. And "Bakkah" can in no way be translated into English as "Mecca", proving Sura 3:96 isn't taking about Mecca, but instead is another reference to the area surrounding Jerusalem (Zion).

The Valley of Bakkah (Arabic) is the Valley of Baca (Hebrew), which refers to the Valley of Tears, near Jerusalem, that Abraham and Isaac passed through, on their way to Mt. Moriah, which Abraham referred to as "Jehovahjireh".

Genesis 22:14 And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovahjireh: as it is said [to] this day, In the mount of the "I AM" it shall be seen (the mount of recognitionSura 2:198).

Psalm 84:6-7
84:6 [Who] passing through the valley of Baca ("tears" in Hebrerew) make it a well; the rain also filleth the pools.
84:7 They go from strength to strength, [every one of them] in Zion (Jerusalem, NOT Mecca) appeareth before God.

20:85 and 20:95 Explanation:

"The word sounds more of an appellation than of a personal name. If we look to old Egyptian, we have Shemer, a stranger, and foreigner. As the Israelites had just left Egypt, they might quite well have among them an Egyptian Hebrew bearing that nickname. And it is recorded by the rabbis that the initiative in the matter of the calf worship was taken not by the Israelites but the Egyptians who had joined them at the time of the Exodus, and who were the source of a great deal of trouble to Moses and Israelites. (JE. III, P. 509). – Tafsīru’l-Qur’ān, ‘Abdu’l-Mājid Daryābādī, 1st ed., vol. III, (Karachi: Daru’l-Ishā‘at, 1991), p.113-4"
Shemer in the bible he could be any one of the Israelites.
  1. the owner of the hill where the city of Samaria was built
  2. a Merarite Levite, son of Mahli and father of Bani
  3. an Asherite, son of Heber and father of Ahi, Rohgah, Jehubbah, and Aram. Also 'Shomer'
  4. a Benjamite, son of Elpaal and builder of the towns of Ono and Lo

The Mystical figure often associated with Samiri who is known as a magician is not mentioned in the Quran that is more of a later addition which is not even recognized by many scholars The Quran only says that Samiri led israelites astray. So this again does not prove that Quran is altered.
The word "samiri" means "overseer" in English. The overseer who led the Children of Israel astray is identified in the Bible as Dathan.

Learn to rely on Scripture instead of the guesswork offered up by so-called "scholars", all of whom God has repeatedly warned us through His Prophets are "the (spiritually) blind leading the blind"

48:25 again The Arabic Text does not include the word Makkah the word used is AL-MASJID-AL-HARAM that refers to Sulay Hudaubiah when Prophet Muhammad A.S and his companions were not allowed to perform the Pilgrimage by Kuffar.
View attachment 57883
Where is Makkah in the Arabic text?
Nowhere, thank-you. It isn't found anywhere in the Bible nor in the Koran (Quran), either directly or by inference.

On the other hand, Jerusalem (City of Peace) is mentioned in the Bible OVER 800 TIMES (and over 100 times more as Zion, as well as indirectly at least 28 more times in the Koran (Quran), IF it's properly read and understood). It's where God said He put His Name, His House and where His Servants are instructed to pray towards.

62:9 Where is the proof that it does not refer to the arabic name "Jumah" for Friday The day Muslims have special congregations for salat-al-jum'aah and it was altered from Al-sabt? Give me proof from the Quran or historical accounts that it was altered.
What does Al-sabt" mean please? It literally translates to "The Sabbath" in English.

Friday (the day before the weekly Sabbath) is referred to in the Bible as the "day of preparation", for people to gather/assemble (verb) the provisions they will need to avoid doing commerce or work on the Sabbath day (the day of rest). The Sabbath begins at sunset Friday, when Friday ends and the Sabbath day begins.

Sura 62:9
https://myislam.org/surah-jumuah/


يَـٰٓأَيُّهَا ٱلَّذِينَ ءَامَنُوٓا۟ إِذَا نُودِىَ لِلصَّلَوٰةِ مِن يَوْمِ ٱلْجُمُعَةِ فَٱسْعَوْا۟ إِلَىٰ ذِكْرِ ٱللَّهِ وَذَرُوا۟ ٱلْبَيْعَ ۚ ذَ‌ٰلِكُمْ خَيْرٌۭ لَّكُمْ إِن كُنتُمْ تَعْلَمُونَ


Yaaa ayyuhal lazeena aamanoo izaa noodiya lis-Salaati miny yawmil Jumu’ati fas’aw ilaa zikril laahi wa zarul bai’; zaalikum khayrul lakum in kuntum ta’lamoon

9. O you who have believed, when [the adhan] is called for the prayer on the day of Jumu’ah [Friday], then proceed to the remembrance of Allah and leave trade. That is better for you, if you only knew.

The Arabic word “adhan” literally means “to listen”.

The Commandment from The Torah (Law) that God gave us:

Exodus 20:8-11
20:8 Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. [It is NOT wrong to do GOOD deeds on the Sabbath. The Sabbath was made for man. Man was not made for the Sabbath.]
20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
20:10 But the seventh day [is] the Sabbath of the "I AM" thy God: [in it] thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that [is] within thy gates:
20:11 For [in] six days the "I AM" made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them [is], and rested the seventh day: wherefore the "I AM" blessed the Sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Friday in Arabic is written as يوم الجمعة, and it is pronounced as “yawm aljumea.” The last and seventh day of the week, Saturday in Arabic is written as يوم السبت, and it is pronounced as “yawm alsabt.” The names of all the days in the Arabic Language are listed in the simple table.

https://happydays365.org/days-of-the-week/weekdays-in-arabic/#/?playlistId=0&videoId=0

Note: Friday and Saturday are the only two days of the week that include the word “yawm” (day) in them (similar to the Hebrew "yom", which likewise means "day"). So Friday is literally the day to assemble/prepare for Saturday, the Sabbath day.

Imaam Ibn Katheer, 1624304976844.png said, "It was named Jumu'ah because it is derived from the word Al-Jam' in Arabic which means to gather


Jummah is the sixth day of the week. According to the Arabian literature, Jummah or al Jumu’ah are derived from jama’a-yajma’u-jaman as its root, means to gather, to collect, to unite, to count, and to combine.

From The Law (Torah) regarding the gathering of two days worth of manna on Friday, the day of preparation/assembly to prepare for the Sabbath:

Exodus 16:4-5
16:4 Then said the "I AM" unto Moses, Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a certain rate every day, that I may prove them, whether they will walk in My Law, or not.
16:5 And it shall come to pass, that on the sixth day they shall prepare [that] which they bring in; and it shall be twice as much as they gather daily.

The additions of O Muhammad are again only in the English Text not the Arabic Text
Agreed. And they are added purposefully to deceive people into believing Mohammad was a prophet even though he did not prophesy anything, and the Koran (Quran) itself tells us that he, Muhammad (pbuh) was ONLY a Messenger/Apostle.

Sura 3:144. Muhammad is no more than an Apostle: many were the Apostles that passed away before him. If he died or were slain, will ye then turn back on your heels? If any did turn back on his heels, not the least harm will he do to God; but God (on the other hand) will swiftly reward those who (serve Him) with gratitude.

The original Arabic Text remains unaltered.
As above please. You now have additional proof that it has been altered, in addition to God telling us that would happen and why He allows it.

The verses from surah Al-Anam Are about the Quran not the bible remove that bible you added in parenthesis in 6:114 that is your own addition and then read. The verses are referring to how demons try to falsify the truth (Quran) but they will not be able to change the word of Allah (Quran) because Allah will protect it.
God's Word is NOT just the Koran (Quran), but also the Old Covenant and New Covenant, which came before it. Sura 6:114 says THE BOOK (not the Koran specifically), which is very clearly referring to the Bible, as is confirmed within the verse itself.

Sura 6:114-115
6:114. Say: "Shall I seek for judge other than "I AM"? - when He it is Who hath sent unto you The Book (Bible), explained in detail." They, to whom We have given The Book, know full well, that it hath been sent down from thy Lord in truth. NEVER be then one of those who doubt (Sura 3:1-3, 15:9, 32:23).
6:115. The Word of thy Lord doth find its FULFILLMENT in TRUTH and in JUSTICE: none can change His Words: for He is the One who heareth and knoweth all.

Indeed, it is We who sent down the message [i.e., the Qur’ān], and indeed, We will be its guardian. 15:9
Sura 15:9-10
15:9. We have, without doubt, sent down the Message [sent -- PAST TENSE]; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption).
15:10. We did send Apostles BEFORE thee amongst the religious sects (John 17:21; Sura 6:159) of old:

Obviously it is talking about the Bible, sent down BEFORE the Koran (Quran).

Sura 2:97. Say: "Whoever is an enemy to Gabriel - for he brings down the (revelation) to thy heart by God's Will, A CONFIRMATION OF WHAT WENT BEFORE, and guidance and glad tidings for those who believe,-

Sura 3:3. It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Koran, CONFIRMING WHAT WENT BEFORE IT and He sent down The Law (of Moses) and The Gospel (of Jesus) BEFORE THIS, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down The Criterion (of Judgment between right and wrong).

Sura 32:23. We did indeed aforetime give the Book (Torah) to Moses: be then NOT IN DOUBT of its (The Torah) reaching (THEE): and We made it a Guide to the Children of Israel.

I can explain the verses of sura 22 but I will have to use "Asbab e Nuzul" or causes of revelation which you will call man-made doctrine so I won't bother
Thank-you. You did well to refrain from trying to explain that which requires no explanation.

God said NEVER did He and His Messengers send an Apostle or Prophet before thee that Satan didn't throw in some vanity, so He actually means NEVER, not something else. It certainly doesn't say "never, except the Koran/Quran".

the verse you quoted from sura 25 does not prove that Quran is altered in only states that Allah is the Guide who will lead us to The truth
19:34 does not refer to crucifixion or ressurection of Prophet Isa A.S if you actually paid attention to The Quran The Word Raised alive here refers to The day of "Resurrection" When all creatures will be resurrected after their death this has been used commonly in the Quran and actually 6:122 which You misunderstood to be about Prophet Isa A.S because you are looking at the verses of Quran to prove your own beliefs is not about Cruxifixion or Ressurection

Can those who had been dead, to whom We gave life and a light with which they can walk among people, be compared to those in complete darkness from which they can never emerge?1 That is how the misdeeds of the disbelievers have been made appealing to them.6:122
If you read this with context than you will understand that this is a comparison of a believer to a non believer and has nothing to do with Jesus Christ the previous verses mention how disbelievers try to lead people astray and that we should ignore them because everything they say is a lie and their own invention there is no mention of Prophet Isa A.S in the preceding or succeeding ayats so your claim is fallacious. The Ayah is using metaphors of light and life for "guidance" and ignorance is compared with "darkness" in the same verse.
All of the above are baseless assumptions, for which you have no proof.

The reason you err is because you are attempting to prove why the Koran (Quran) is right, and why the Bible is wrong, which you have been COMMANDED not to do.

Sura 4:150-152
4:150. Those who deny God and His Apostles, and (those who) wish to separate God from His Apostles, saying: "We believe in some but reject others": and (those who) wish to take a course midway,-
4:151. They are in truth (equally) Unbelievers; and we have prepared for Unbelievers a humiliating punishment.
4:152. To those who believe in God and His Apostles and make no distinction between any of the Apostles, We shall soon give their (due) rewards: for God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

It's really a totally insane approach to geting to know God, considering how many times he has told us in the Koran (Quran) that was sent to confrim the Bible, that we must read The Law and the Gospel, and not be in doubt of them.

I won't try to explain the verses of the Bible because I am only Concerned with Quran for now and neither do I have the time for this now.

I won't be answering any of your questions because as I already told you I have exams from 23rd of June and also you seem to be looking at the ayats from your own biased lense so there is no meaning in dragging this because none of us are going to agree.
Peace.
Thank-you. Understood.
 






Last edited:

arhur12

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First of all you provided no verse from the Quran which would prove your claims about Angel Michael A.S give me proof from the Quran that one verse doesn't prove anything other than both Angel Gabriel and Angel Michael A.S are exalted angels of God (Peace be upon them)
[/QUOTE]
Actually, you were given dozens and dozens of verses, from the Koran (Quran), you just decided to ignore them. Please see a few examples again below, all of which direct readers of the Koran (Quran) to read, carefully study and apply what it says in the Bible:

References to The Torah and The Gospel in The Koran (Quran)
(more than 30)


Suras 2:53, 2:87-93, 3:1-3, 3:48-50, 4:54, 5:46-50, 6:91-92, 6:154-157, 7:157, 9:111, 11:17, 15:9-10, 17:2-4, 21:48, 23:20, 23:49, 25:35, 28:1-3, 32:23, 35:25-32, 37:117, 40:53, 40:70, 41:45, 42:14-17, 45:16, 46:12, 46:30, 48:29, 53:36-47, 57:25-29, 61:6, 78:2

References to the Koran (Quran) being sent to CONFIRM what came before it, i.e. the Old Covenant and New Covenant, NOT to start some new organized religion (some repeats from the list above):

Sura 2:97-98, 3:1-3, 4:47, 5:51, 6:92-94, 6:154-157, 10:37, 12:111, 22:52, 35:31, 46:12, 61:6-7


If you would have taken the time to study what's been shared for your benefit (and everyone else's too), instead of having a knee-jerk reaction and attempting to justify being part of one of the many sects of "Islam" (which is condemned in the Koran (Quran), you would have noticed that indeed, all of those verses have been examined in great detail, confirming they have been altered.


Sura 2:125 and 2:127 ARE in the Bible though, and discussed in much greater detail than in the Koran (Quran), and prove beyond any reasonable doubt that the Roman Catholic Meccans changed the name Isaac in the original Koran to Ishmael, to continue tourism through pagan Mecca, with their new religion that is also condemned in the Koran.

Here are those verses in their original form, translated into English:-

King of kings' Bible - Sura 2:125-127
2:125. Remember We made The House a place of assembly for men and a place of safety and take ye The Station of Abraham (Mt. Moriah - Gen. 22:2) as a place of prayer and We Covenanted with Abraham and ISAAC (Gen. 17:21), that they should sanctify My House for those who compass it round, or use it as a retreat, or bow, or prostrate themselves (there, in prayer).
2:126. And remember Abraham said: "My Lord, make this a City of PEACE (Jeru-SALEM in Hebrew), and feed its people with fruits,- such of them as believe God and in the Last Day." He said: "(Yea), and such as reject Faith,- for a while will I grant them their pleasure, but will soon drive them to the torment of Fire,- an evil destination (indeed)!"
2:127. And remember Abraham and ISAAC (Gen. 17:21, 22:2; Sura 37:101-102, 112-113) raised the foundations of The House (with this prayer): "Our Lord! Accept (this service) from us: For Thou art the All-Hearing, the All-Knowing.

The name "Mecca" does NOT mean "city of peace" in Arabic or any other language. The name JERU-SALEM does, in fact, mean "city of peace", in Hebrew.

Further, the Koran (Quran) itself proves that this alteration took place, and that the Roman Catholic Meccans who altered it didn't realize that there was another reference in the Koran (Quran) proving it was Isaac who Abraham was told to sacrifice, NOT Ishmael.

37:100. O my Lord! Grant me (Abraham) a righteous (son)!"
37:101. So We gave him the GOOD NEWS of a boy (Isaac - 37:112; Gen. 17) ready to suffer and forbear.
37:102. Then, when (the son) reached (the age of) (serious) work with him, he (Abraham) said: "O my son! I see in vision that I offer thee in sacrifice (Gen. 22): now see what is thy view!" (The son) said: "O my father! Do as thou art commanded: thou will find me, if God so wills, one practising Patience and Constancy!"
37:103. So when they had both submitted their wills (to God), and he had laid him prostrate on his forehead (for sacrifice),
37:104. We called out to him, "O Abraham! (Gen. 22:11-12)
37:105. Thou hast already fulfilled the vision!" - Thus indeed do We reward those who do right.
37:106. For this was obviously a trial -
37:107. And We ransomed him with a momentous sacrifice:
37:108. And We left (this blessing) for him among generations (to come) in later times:
37:109. "Peace and salutation to Abraham!"
37:110. Thus indeed do We reward those who do right.
37:111. For he was one of our believing Servants.
37:112. And We gave him the GOOD NEWS of Isaac - a Prophet,- one of the Righteous.
37:113. We blessed him (Abraham) and Isaac: but of their progeny [the children of Jacob/Israel] are (some) that do right, and (some) that obviously do wrong, to their own souls.

Good news of ISAAC (which means "laughter" in Hebrew, because Sarah laughed when first receiving the good news prophecy that she would conceive a son in her old age (90 years old).

Of course there are other references in the Koran (Quran) to Abraham sacrificing Isaac as well.

Sura 6:84 And We gave Abraham Isaac and Jacob: all three We guided aright.

Sura 38:45-46 And commemorate Our servants Abraham, Isaac (not Ishmael), and Jacob, possessors of Power and Vision. Verily did We choose them for a special purpose - proclaiming the Message of the Hereafter. They were in Our sight, truly, of the company of the Elect and the good.

Sura 11:71 And We gave Abraham the glad tidings ("good news") of Isaac and after him Jacob / Israel (the son of Isaac).

Sura 15:54 "Good news" of a son.

Sura 51:28 Glad tidings ("good news") of a son (Isaac - "laughter" in Hebrew) and Sarah laughed being 90 years old (the word Isaac means laughter and because Sarah laughed the child was named "laughter" - Isaac in Hebrew).

We gave the "good news" means "news from God" via an angel messenger. No angel was ever sent to Abraham to announce the birth of Ishmael and this is born-out by all of the Holy Scriptures. He was born because of Sarai (Sarah) not because of God and was born to an Egyptian surrogate-mother, called Hagar.

All of the references of "good news" refer to Isaac and not to Ishmael, proving that the Meccans changed the name Isaac for Ishmael in Sura 2:125 and 127.

However Ishmael was blessed by God, later, when Abraham, who loved him, asked God to let Ishmael live before God (Genesis 17:18-20).



The historical account you are sharing is directly from the Bible, which is the ONLY historical source we have for the story of Abraham, Sarah, Isaac, Jacob/Israel, Ishmael and Hagar. The map below shows exactly where the wilderness of Beersheba is located, near Jerusalem, over 1000 km away from the area that became Mecca over 2000 years later.

View attachment 57884

Anyone who wants to pretend that Abraham sent Hagar and Ishmael off (when Ishmael was 14) with a day's ration of food and water, on a 1000+ km trip over several wilderness areas and the Sarawat mountain range, to go somehow find Mecca, which didn't exist at that time, has completely lost their minds.

Abraham's offspring, from Sarah, Hagar and from Keturah, were all born in and around Jerusalem, the area where Abraham was later buried (in Hebron, specifically).

Ishmael likewise lived and was buried not far from Jerusalem, where his sons were raised. Hagar went to Egypt (her homeland) to find a wife for Ishmael, so they couldn't have been far from Egypt either, as the map and Biblical historical account clearly state.


Identified by whom? By some spiritually blind "Islamic scholar"? There is no reference to "Hejaaz" anywhere in the Bible, which tells us exactly where the wilderness of Paran actually is (see map above). It obviously isn't anywhere near the area that would millenia later become Mecca, otherwise Hagar, the Egyptian, would not have been able to go to Egypt to find Ishmael a wife, nor would word have reached Ishmael in time for him to make it back to bury Abraham with Isaac, if Ishmael would have lived in the area that is now called Mecca.


As marked on the map above. And this is what Deuteronomy 1:1-2 actually says, along with another map confirming the area between the Jordan RIVER (which runs from North to South from the Syria-Lebanon border, through the Sea of Galilee, by the West bank, and on to the Dead Sea:

Deuteronomy 1:1-2
1:1 These [be] the words which Moses spoke unto all Israel on THIS side (the West-side) Jordan in the wilderness, in the plain over against the Red [sea], between Paran, and Tophel, and Laban, and Hazeroth, and Dizahab.
1:2 ([There are] eleven days' [journey] from Horeb by the way of mount Seir unto Kadeshbarnea.)

View attachment 57887

What is today called the "Gulf of Suez" (and the Gulf of Akaba too) is, in fact, part of the Red Sea.




That would depend upon the size of the teenage boy and the size of the bush/shrub. One thing for certain, the two of them certainly didn't travel over 1000 km on a day's ration of food and water, which were small enough for Hagar to carry on one shoulder.


Hagar (the Egyptian) left Abraham and Sarah TWICE, both times traveling toward Egypt, NOT the non-existent town of Mecca. The first time was when Hagar was pregnant with Ishmael. Abram/Abraham was approximately 86 years old (see Gen. 12:4-8, and add 11 years to that from the information provided below) when Ishmael was born:

Genesis 16:3-12
16:3 And Sarai Abram's wife took Hagar her maid the Egyptian, after Abram had dwelt ten years in the land of Canaan, and gave her to her husband Abram to be his wife.
16:4 And he went in unto Hagar, and she conceived: and when she saw that she had conceived, her mistress [Sarai] was despised in her eyes.
16:5 And Sarai said unto Abram, My wrong [be] upon thee: I have given my maid into thy bosom; and when she saw that she had conceived, I was despised in her eyes: the "I AM" judge between me and thee.
16:6 But Abram said unto Sarai, Behold, thy maid [is] in thy hand; do to her as it pleaseth thee. And when Sarai dealt hardly with her, she fled from her face.
16:7 And the angel of the "I AM" found her by a fountain of water in the wilderness, BY THE FOUNTAIN IN THE WAY TO SHUR.
16:8 And he said, Hagar, Sarai's maid, whence camest thou? and where wilt thou go? And she said, I flee from the face of my mistress Sarai.
16:9 And the angel of the "I AM" said unto her, Return to thy mistress, and submit thyself under her hands.
16:10 And the angel of the "I AM" said unto her, I will multiply thy seed exceedingly, that it shall not be numbered for multitude.
16:11 And the angel of the "I AM" said unto her, Behold, thou [art] with child, and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the "I AM" hath heard thy affliction.
16:12 And he will be a wild man; his hand [will be] against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell to THE EAST OF ALL HIS BRETHREN (NOT over 1000 km to the South).

The toddler/infant referred to is ISAAC, born to Abraham and Sarah when Abraham was 100 years old. Please note well that although God blessed Ishmael, God's Covenant was with ISAAC, because it was Isaac that Abraham took to Mt. Moriah to be sacrificed.

Genesis 17:20-26
17:20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.
17:21 But My Covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year.
17:22 And He left off talking with him, and God went up from Abraham.
17:23 And Abraham took Ishmael his son, and all that were born in his house, and all that were bought with his money, every male among the men of Abraham's house; and circumcised the flesh of their foreskin in the selfsame day, as God had said unto him.
17:24 And Abraham [was] ninety years old and nine, when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin.
17:25 And Ishmael his son [was] thirteen years old, when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin.
17:26 In the selfsame day was Abraham circumcised, and Ishmael his son.

And here is where Hagar left the second time, when Ishmael was around 14 years of age (a year later, at a party commemorating Isaac being weaned):

Genesis 21:5-12
21:5 And Abraham was an hundred years old, when his son Isaac was born unto him.
21:6 And Sarah said, God hath made me to laugh, [so that] all that hear will laugh with me.
21:7 And she said, Who would have said unto Abraham, that Sarah should have given children suck? for I have born [him] a son in his old age.
21:8 And the child grew, and was weaned: and Abraham made a great feast the [same] day that Isaac was weaned.
21:9 And Sarah saw the son of Hagar the Egyptian, which she had born unto Abraham, mocking.
21:10 Wherefore she said unto Abraham, Cast out this bondwoman and her son: for the son of this bondwoman shall not be heir with my son, [even] with Isaac.
21:11 And the thing was very grievous in Abraham's sight because of his son.
21:12 And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for in Isaac shall thy seed be called [(I)saac's sons - Saxons].
21:13 And also of the son of the bondwoman will I make a nation, because he [is] thy seed.
21:14 And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and took bread, and a bottle of water, and gave [it] unto Hagar, putting [it] on her shoulder, and the child, and sent her away: and she departed, and wandered in the wilderness of Beersheba.
21:15 And the water was spent in the bottle, and she cast the child under one of the shrubs.

So we have both the location and the age of everyone involved, and NONE of them were ever within 1000 km of the area that would not become Mecca for another 2000+ years.


According to whom? Where does it say that Hagar carried Ishmael, as a mother would do with a toddler? Would a mother "cast a toddler under a shrub/bush?

The only way someone could believe Ishmael wasn't 14 years old when he was sent with Hagar is if they believe the Biblical account found in God's Law -- which is the ONLY historical account there is of Abraham, and upon which the Koran (Quran) is based -- is a lie. There couldn't be anything more overtly satanic than that.


As above please. The Biblical account provided in God's Law is accurate and is the historical account upon which the original Koran (Quran) is actually based and sent to CONFIRM. The Biblical, historically accurate account provides in-depth details as to where everyone involved lived, died and was buried.

You're confusing Isaac (the infant, who had just been weaned at about 1 year of age) and Ishmael (the 14 year old boy mocking Isaac at the party Abraham gave to celebrate Isaac's weaning).

There is no historical nor archaeological evidence to support the spiritual, geographical and historical absurdity of claiming that Abraham, Hagar and Ishmael went to Mecca. And further, there's nothing in the Koran (Quran) to suggest that.


Thank-you. Agreed. And "Bakkah" can in no way be translated into English as "Mecca", proving Sura 3:96 isn't taking about Mecca, but instead is another reference to the area surrounding Jerusalem (Zion).

The Valley of Bakkah (Arabic) is the Valley of Baca (Hebrew), which refers to the Valley of Tears, near Jerusalem, that Abraham and Isaac passed through, on their way to Mt. Moriah, which Abraham referred to as "Jehovahjireh".

Genesis 22:14 And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovahjireh: as it is said [to] this day, In the mount of the "I AM" it shall be seen (the mount of recognitionSura 2:198).

Psalm 84:6-7
84:6 [Who] passing through the valley of Baca ("tears" in Hebrerew) make it a well; the rain also filleth the pools.
84:7 They go from strength to strength, [every one of them] in Zion (Jerusalem, NOT Mecca) appeareth before God.


The word "samiri" means "overseer" in English. The overseer who led the Children of Israel astray is identified in the Bible as Dathan.

Learn to rely on Scripture instead of the guesswork offered up by so-called "scholars", all of whom God has repeatedly warned us through His Prophets are "the (spiritually) blind leading the blind"


Nowhere, thank-you. It isn't found anywhere in the Bible nor in the Koran (Quran), either directly or by inference.

On the other hand, Jerusalem (City of Peace) is mentioned in the Bible OVER 800 TIMES (and over 100 times more as Zion, as well as indirectly at least 28 more times in the Koran (Quran), IF it's properly read and understood). It's where God said He put His Name, His House and where His Servants are instructed to pray towards.


What does Al-sabt" mean please? It literally translates to "The Sabbath" in English.

Friday (the day before the weekly Sabbath) is referred to in the Bible as the "day of preparation", for people to gather/assemble (verb) the provisions they will need to avoid doing commerce or work on the Sabbath day (the day of rest). The Sabbath begins at sunset Friday, when Friday ends and the Sabbath day begins.

Sura 62:9
https://myislam.org/surah-jumuah/


يَـٰٓأَيُّهَا ٱلَّذِينَ ءَامَنُوٓا۟ إِذَا نُودِىَ لِلصَّلَوٰةِ مِن يَوْمِ ٱلْجُمُعَةِ فَٱسْعَوْا۟ إِلَىٰ ذِكْرِ ٱللَّهِ وَذَرُوا۟ ٱلْبَيْعَ ۚ ذَ‌ٰلِكُمْ خَيْرٌۭ لَّكُمْ إِن كُنتُمْ تَعْلَمُونَ


Yaaa ayyuhal lazeena aamanoo izaa noodiya lis-Salaati miny yawmil Jumu’ati fas’aw ilaa zikril laahi wa zarul bai’; zaalikum khayrul lakum in kuntum ta’lamoon

9. O you who have believed, when [the adhan] is called for the prayer on the day of Jumu’ah [Friday], then proceed to the remembrance of Allah and leave trade. That is better for you, if you only knew.

The Arabic word “adhan” literally means “to listen”.

The Commandment from The Torah (Law) that God gave us:

Exodus 20:8-11
20:8 Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. [It is NOT wrong to do GOOD deeds on the Sabbath. The Sabbath was made for man. Man was not made for the Sabbath.]
20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
20:10 But the seventh day [is] the Sabbath of the "I AM" thy God: [in it] thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that [is] within thy gates:
20:11 For [in] six days the "I AM" made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them [is], and rested the seventh day: wherefore the "I AM" blessed the Sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Friday in Arabic is written as يوم الجمعة, and it is pronounced as “yawm aljumea.” The last and seventh day of the week, Saturday in Arabic is written as يوم السبت, and it is pronounced as “yawm alsabt.” The names of all the days in the Arabic Language are listed in the simple table.

https://happydays365.org/days-of-the-week/weekdays-in-arabic/#/?playlistId=0&videoId=0

Note: Friday and Saturday are the only two days of the week that include the word “yawm” (day) in them (similar to the Hebrew "yom", which likewise means "day"). So Friday is literally the day to assemble/prepare for Saturday, the Sabbath day.

Imaam Ibn Katheer, View attachment 57891 said, "It was named Jumu'ah because it is derived from the word Al-Jam' in Arabic which means to gather


Jummah is the sixth day of the week. According to the Arabian literature, Jummah or al Jumu’ah are derived from jama’a-yajma’u-jaman as its root, means to gather, to collect, to unite, to count, and to combine.

From The Law (Torah) regarding the gathering of two days worth of manna on Friday, the day of preparation/assembly to prepare for the Sabbath:

Exodus 16:4-5
16:4 Then said the "I AM" unto Moses, Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a certain rate every day, that I may prove them, whether they will walk in My Law, or not.
16:5 And it shall come to pass, that on the sixth day they shall prepare [that] which they bring in; and it shall be twice as much as they gather daily.


Agreed. And they are added purposefully to deceive people into believing Mohammad was a prophet even though he did not prophesy anything, and the Koran (Quran) itself tells us that he, Muhammad (pbuh) was ONLY a Messenger/Apostle.

Sura 3:144. Muhammad is no more than an Apostle: many were the Apostles that passed away before him. If he died or were slain, will ye then turn back on your heels? If any did turn back on his heels, not the least harm will he do to God; but God (on the other hand) will swiftly reward those who (serve Him) with gratitude.


As above please. You now have additional proof that it has been altered, in addition to God telling us that would happen and why He allows it.


God's Word is NOT just the Koran (Quran), but also the Old Covenant and New Covenant, which came before it. Sura 6:114 says THE BOOK (not the Koran specifically), which is very clearly referring to the Bible, as is confirmed within the verse itself.

Sura 6:114-115
6:114. Say: "Shall I seek for judge other than "I AM"? - when He it is Who hath sent unto you The Book (Bible), explained in detail." They, to whom We have given The Book, know full well, that it hath been sent down from thy Lord in truth. NEVER be then one of those who doubt (Sura 3:1-3, 15:9, 32:23).
6:115. The Word of thy Lord doth find its FULFILLMENT in TRUTH and in JUSTICE: none can change His Words: for He is the One who heareth and knoweth all.


Sura 15:9-10
15:9. We have, without doubt, sent down the Message [sent -- PAST TENSE]; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption).
15:10. We did send Apostles BEFORE thee amongst the religious sects (John 17:21; Sura 6:159) of old:

Obviously it is talking about the Bible, sent down BEFORE the Koran (Quran).

Sura 2:97. Say: "Whoever is an enemy to Gabriel - for he brings down the (revelation) to thy heart by God's Will, A CONFIRMATION OF WHAT WENT BEFORE, and guidance and glad tidings for those who believe,-

Sura 3:3. It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Koran, CONFIRMING WHAT WENT BEFORE IT and He sent down The Law (of Moses) and The Gospel (of Jesus) BEFORE THIS, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down The Criterion (of Judgment between right and wrong).

Sura 32:23. We did indeed aforetime give the Book (Torah) to Moses: be then NOT IN DOUBT of its (The Torah) reaching (THEE): and We made it a Guide to the Children of Israel.


Thank-you. You did well to refrain from trying to explain that which requires no explanation.

God said NEVER did He and His Messengers send an Apostle or Prophet before thee that Satan didn't throw in some vanity, so He actually means NEVER, not something else. It certainly doesn't say "never, except the Koran/Quran".


All of the above are baseless assumptions, for which you have no proof.

The reason you err is because you are attempting to prove why the Koran (Quran) is right, and why the Bible is wrong, which you have been COMMANDED not to do.

Sura 4:150-152
4:150. Those who deny God and His Apostles, and (those who) wish to separate God from His Apostles, saying: "We believe in some but reject others": and (those who) wish to take a course midway,-
4:151. They are in truth (equally) Unbelievers; and we have prepared for Unbelievers a humiliating punishment.
4:152. To those who believe in God and His Apostles and make no distinction between any of the Apostles, We shall soon give their (due) rewards: for God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

It's really a totally insane approach to geting to know God, considering how many times he has told us in the Koran (Quran) that was sent to confrim the Bible, that we must read The Law and the Gospel, and not be in doubt of them.


Thank-you. Understood.
[/QUOTE]
Well you and I won't agree on one thing because we have different approaches you believe the bible to be the unaltered word of God while Quran is the book that has been altered while I believe the opposite to be true so there really is no point in dragging this conversation
Most of the verses mentioned are taken out of context you are singling out one verse while ignoring the preceding and succeeding verses in sura 2 and 3 those verses are directed at the PEOPLE OF BOOK not Muslims because they used to ask questions about their Bible from Prophet Muhammad S.A.W hence why in previous verses God says "Remember" and speaks in past tense the Arabs weren't given any scripture before nor did they know anything about Judaism or christianity so they are not referring to them. But that does not mean that they are useless for Muslims because we can learn valuable lessons from them. Other verses are mostly talking about Quran but you keep inserting bible in there. Also it is true that the BiBle is from God but what we say is that there have been human errors in its TRANSLATIONS and we do not even have one definitive bible that can be considered THE ORIGINAL BIBLE.
Also, you did not answer my question about Ishmael you completely missed my point what I was saying was that BIBLE itself says that Ishmael A.S was 13 years old when Isaac A.S was born and then weaning of Isaac happened after he was 2-3 years old so Ishmael A.S was 16-17 years old when Hagar and Ishmael A.S were sent away I know their are two different accounts of Hagar being sent away once before birth of Isaac A.S and once after his birth But what I was saying was that in genesis 21 the behavior described of Ishmael A.S is not that of a 17 year old but it feels like the person being described is a toddler or a very young child who cannot take care of himself why did a 17 year old needed to be cast aside to a Bush? Couldn't he sit on the Bush himself? Can a 17 year old not take care of himself he did not help his mother carry any of the supplies either and was simply crying all of the time while his mother was looking for water a young adult of 17 years old does not act like that and he had to be lifted up by hand and given water Hagar was an old woman at that time her young adult son should have been helping her.

Also location of Paran as identified by Eusebius and Jerome both of whom died before advent of Islam
"(Now) a city beyond Arabia adjoining the desert of the Saracens [who wander in the desert] through which the children of Israel went moving (camp) from Sinai. Located (we say) beyond Arabia on the south, three days journey to the east of Aila (in the desert Pharan) where Scripture affirms Ismael dwelled, whence the Ishmaelites. It is said (we read) also that (king) Chodollagomor cut to pieces those in 'Pharan which is in the desert'." Onomasticon,
So they were also trying to propagate Fake organized religion Islam and fake story of Hagar and Ishmael A.S being sent to Arabia? 200 years before Islam even existed? Proves that it weren't BLIND IMAMS who faked history that point of view existed before the advent of Islam
Sebeos A Bishop also said the same thing about Paran. The "Armenian Bishop and historian, describing the Arab conquest of his time, wrote that the Arabs "assembled and came out from Paran"
A BISHOP not A BLIND IMAM said that.

It does not matter to me if Isaac A.S was the son who was sacrificed the Quran does not mention the name of the son who was sacrificed and we love and revere both brothers and Quran tells us not to differentiate between the Prophets

2:285 "The Messenger ˹firmly˺ believes in what has been revealed to him from his Lord, and so do the believers. They ˹all˺ believe in Allah, His angels, His Books, and His messengers. ˹They proclaim,˺ “We make no distinction between any of His messengers.” And they say, “We hear and obey. ˹We seek˺ Your forgiveness, our Lord! And to You ˹alone˺ is the final return.”
The only thing that matters is that Prophet Muhammad Pbuh is the final Prophet

"Muhammad is not the father of any man among you, but he is the messenger of Allah and the Seal of the Prophets; and Allah is ever Aware of all things". 33:40

To claim that Bible has not been altered or twisted by the "TRANSLATORS" while accusing Quran of being altered is just not logically right

Mesoratic text of genesis 16:12 (New English version)
"He will be a wild donkey of a man; his hand will be against everyone and everyone's hand against him, and he will live in hostility towards all his brothers"

Septaugint text
"He shall be a wild man his hand against all, and the hands of all against him he shall dwell in the presence of all of his brethren"

Both verses have differences in translation and meaning so you cannot say that the Quran was altered and twisted while Bible is the word of God which remains unaltered clearly the translators of Bible have made many mistakes while translating the original text as well which can change the meaning of verses the mesoratic text describes Ishmael A.S in a more..........disrespectful comparing him to a donkey while the Greek Septaugint text is more neutral and respectful.

The samaritan pentateuch also exists which has an additional commandment and 6000 minor differences from the mesoratic text.

The Synoptic Gospels and Gospel of john have quite a lot of differences in their accounts as well
Synoptic Gospels John
Begin with the virgin conception (virgin birth - Matthew and Luke only)Begin with incarnation of the preexistent Logos/Word
Jesus visits Jerusalem only in the last week of his life; only one PassoverJesus active in Judea for much of his mission; three Passovers
Jesus speaks little of himselfJesus speaks much of himself, notably in the "I am" statements
Jesus calls for faith in GodJesus calls for faith in himself
Jesus's central theme is the Kingdom of GodJesus rarely mentions the Kingdom of God
Jesus preaches repentance and forgivenessJesus never mentions repentance and forgiveness only once (John 20:23)
Jesus speaks in aphorisms and parablesJesus speaks in lengthy dialogues
Jesus rarely mentions eternal lifeJesus regularly mentions eternal life
Jesus shows strong concern for the poor and sinnersJesus shows little concern for the poor and sinners
Jesus frequently exorcises demonsJesus never exorcises demons
So many differences even in the 4 canonical Gospels there is no mention of the prostitute in the synoptic Gospels The account of ressurection and crucifixion are different in the synoptics









Way to the cross
Matthew 27:32–33
Mark 15:21–22
  • Soldiers had Simon of Cyrene carry Jesus' cross.
Luke 23:26–32
  • Soldiers had Simon of Cyrene carry Jesus' cross.
  • Jesus said to wailing women: 'Don't weep for me, but for yourselves and your children.'
John 19:17
  • "They"[241] had Jesus carry the cross.
Crucifixion
Matthew 27:34–36
  • Jesus tasted wine mixed with gall, refused to drink more.
  • Soldiers crucified Jesus, casted lots for his clothes and kept watch.
  • [No time indicated]
Mark 15:23–25
  • Jesus refused to drink wine mixed with myrrh.
  • Soldiers crucified Jesus and casted lots for his clothes.
  • This happened at nine in the morning on the day of Passover (14:12, 15:25).
Luke 23:33–34
John 19:18, 23–24
  • [No drink mentioned]
  • "They"[241] crucified Jesus and four soldiers each took a garment, casting lots over the undergarment (this fulfilled a prophecy).
  • This happened after noon on the Day of Preparation before Passover (19:14, 31)
Mocking
Matthew 27:37–44
  • Sign: "This is Jesus, the king of the Jews".
  • Passersby, high priests, teachers of the law, elders and both rebels mocked Jesus.
Mark 15:26–32
  • Sign: "The king of the Jews".
  • Passersby, high priests, teachers of the law and both rebels mocked Jesus.
Luke 23:35–43
John 19:19–22, 25–27
Death
Matthew 27:45–56
  • At noon, a three-hour-long darkness came across the land.
  • About three, Jesus cried out loud: 'Eli, Eli, lema sabachtani?'
  • Bystander offered Jesus wine vinegar, others said: 'Now let's see if Elohim saves him.'
  • Jesus cried out again and died.
  • Temple curtain ripped, earthquake.
  • Tombs broke open, many dead came back to life and appeared to many people in Jerusalem.
  • Centurion and soldiers terrified: 'Surely he was the Son of God.'
  • Many women from Galilee looked on from a distance, including Mary Magdalene, Mary, mother of James and Joseph[243] and the mother of Zebedee's sons.
Mark 15:33–41
  • At noon, a three-hour-long darkness came across the land.
  • At three, Jesus cried out loud: 'Eloï, Eloï, lema sabachtani?'
  • Bystander offered Jesus wine vinegar and said: 'Now let's see if Elohim comes to take him down.'
  • Jesus cried out loud and died.
  • Temple curtain ripped.
  • Centurion: 'Surely this man was the Son of God.'
  • From a distance, the women from Galilee looked on, including Mary Magdalene, Mary, mother of James and Joses and Salome.[243]
Luke 23:44–49
  • About noon, a three-hour-long darkness came across the land.
  • Temple curtain ripped.
  • Jesus called out loud: 'Father, into your hands I commit my spirit,' and died.
  • Centurion: 'Surely this was a righteous man.'
  • Bystanders beat their chest and went away.
  • Those who know him, including the Galilean women, stood at a distance.
John 19:28–37
  • [No darkness mentioned, no time indicated]
  • To fulfill Scripture, Jesus said: 'I am thirsty.'
  • "They" let Jesus drink wine vinegar.
  • Jesus said: 'It is finished,' and died.
  • [No mention of reaction from bystanders or effect on temple curtain]
  • Soldiers broke the legs of the other two crucified men, but not Jesus' legs (this fulfilled a prophecy), but did pierce his side with a spear (this fulfilled another prophecy).

So who is correct? Did Jesus Christ carry his own cross or did Simon the Cyrene carry it for him? If one is right the other must be incorrect right?They can't both be correct at the same time I would rather believe the Synoptic Bibles to be true which were written before John and also by the law of witnesses since there are 3 people agreeing on something it should be the one closest to truth. Coincidently Most support and I Say MOST not all support of Trinity and Jesus's divinity/immortality/Christ+Holy Spirit comes from the Gospel of John not the Synoptics . Also Jesus Christ spoke Galilean Aramaic but the new testament gospels were written in Greek so we don't even have the Gospels in their original language while Quran remains preserved in its original language so translation errors from Aramaic to Greek are more likely in the new testament.

Also isn't it ironic that the same Organized Religion you claim to hate and say is man-made doctrine brought you the Canonical New Testament that you are now using to support your beliefs. Who approved which books will be considered reliable and canon and included in the New Testament? "THE CHURCH" The Same CHURCH you hate. You say there is no mosque, synagogue or Church in the Bible no clergy no AUTHORITIES but then you use the same books that were declared by these INSTITUITIONS as being true and word of God. Where is the proof that THE CHURCH AUTHORITIES which according to you not me have spread the false ORGANIZED RELIGION did not try to hide or TWIST the meaning of the bible. After all According to YOU not ME THE CHURCH and its AUTHORITIES are not to be TRUSTED and are RESPONSIBLE for spreading the false ORGANIZED RELIGION. THE SAME CHURCH that declared which books should be a part of the new testament WAS THE SAME CHURCH that turned CHRISTIANITY into an ORGANIZED RELIGION. Then if they were wrong about the organized religion part their canonical gospels should not be considered reliable either by your own logic. Before you counter this by saying the new testament was compiled by the apostles in their lifetimes sure I will believe that but the actual CANONIZATION happened after their death even if it happened in their lifetimes the closest predicted date is somewhere between 33-66 A.D while the Quran also was compiled within 3 years of Prophet Muhammad's pbuh death and the standardization in 650 A.D is comparable to the different versions of biblical texts.
Jerusalem was city of peace correct it was a sacred place of worship which is confirmed by Quran but also in the Quran we are ordered to change the Qibla from Jerusalem to Kaaba in Mecca if Jerusalem was not a sacred place of worship we wouldn't have the dispute of Palestine today.

The foolish among the people will say, "What has turned them away from their qiblah,1 which they used to face?"Say, "To Allah belongs the east and the west. He guides whom He wills to a straight path." And thus We have made you a median [i.e., just] community that you will be witnesses over the people and the Messenger will be a witness over you. And We did not make the qiblah which you used to face except that We might make evident who would follow the Messenger from who would turn back on his heels.1 And indeed, it is difficult except for those whom Allah has guided. And never would Allah have caused you to lose your faith [i.e., your previous prayers]. Indeed Allah is, to the people, Kind and Merciful.We have certainly seen the turning of your face, [O Muḥammad], toward the heaven, and We will surely turn you to a qiblah with which you will be pleased. So turn your face [i.e., yourself] toward al-Masjid al-Ḥarām.1 And wherever you [believers] are, turn your faces [i.e., yourselves] toward it [in prayer]. Indeed, those who have been given the Scripture [i.e., the Jews and the Christians] well know that it is the truth from their Lord. And Allah is not unaware of what they do. surah Al-baqara:142-144

Another reason why I and many Muslims do not read or trust the Bible as much as Quran is how some Biblical Accounts of Prophets are very disrespectful

Prophet Solomon accused of idolatory in the bible in 1 Kings 11

11 King Solomon loved many foreign women in addition to Pharaoh’s daughter. He loved Hittite women and women from Moab, Ammon, Edom, and Sidon. 2 They came from the nations about which the Lord had said to the people of Israel, “Never intermarry with them. They will surely tempt you to follow their gods.” But Solomon was obsessed with their love. 3 He had 700 wives who were princesses and 300 wives who were concubines.[a] 4 In his old age, his wives tempted him to follow other gods. He was no longer committed to the Lord his God as his father David had been. 5 Solomon followed Astarte (the goddess of the Sidonians) and Milcom (the disgusting idol of the Ammonites). 6 So Solomon did what the Lord considered evil. He did not wholeheartedly follow the Lord as his father David had done. 7 Then Solomon built an illegal worship site on the hill east of Jerusalem for Chemosh (the disgusting idol of Moab) and for Molech (the disgusting idol of the Ammonites). 8 He did these things for each of his foreign wives who burned incense and sacrificed to their gods.

This accusation is absent from the Quran and guess what the Scholars have to say about this

"In the branch of literary analysis that examines the Bible, called higher criticism, the story of Solomon falling into idolatry by the influence of Pharaoh's daughter and his other foreign wives is "customarily seen as the handiwork of the 'deuteronomistic historian(s)'", who are held to have written, compiled, or edited texts to legitimize the reforms of Hezekiah's great-grandson, King Josiah who reigned from about 641 to 609 BCE (over 280 years after Solomon's death according to Bible scholars).[37] Scholarly consensus in this field holds that "Solomon's wives/women were introduced in the 'Josianic' (customarily Dtr) edition of Kings as a theological construct to blame the schism [between Judah and the Northern Kingdom of Israel] on his misdeeds"
Even the Biblical Scholars agree that this was a "Theological Construction"


Similarly no mention of Eve being the Temptress in Quran or The mention of Prophet Noah A.S being drunken and naked or Prophet Abraham A.S leaving his son and wife helpless in wilderness because he was told by his other wife . These accounts make the Prophets appear like dead beat dads or in the case of Solomon A.S as someone who did not care about God's law and was too obsessed with "love". The Bible says Solomon had close to 1000 partners and he was "obsessed" with love. I don't know about you but I would feel wierd if my religious books described God's Prophets who were the best of his men in this way. This is worse than the 72 virgins everyone uses against Muslims and Prophet Muhammad pbuh even though neither they nor Prophet Muhammad pbuh's Marriage to Ayesha R.A are in the Quran. Further The Bible also says that Prophet Aaron was also involved in the making and worship of the Golden Calf while the Quran does not mention this. Clearly Quran is more respectful towards the Prophets A.S in its description and actually depicts them as role models who should be revered and followed.









Peace.
Sorry If I offended you with the Harsh tone but this is a sensitive topic so I had to be harsh I have nothing against you but If you claim that Quran is altered or twisted you will definitely get a similiar response from any Muslim
May Allah Guide You
 






Last edited:
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Messages
3,283
Ever wondered why quite a lot of celebrities and prominent individuals turn to Hinduism , leaving behind the Abrahamic faiths that they were born into?
Adherents of Abrahamic faiths , such as those of you on the forum, relentlessly strive to create a dichotomy between God and Satan, good and bad, right and wrong.
This dichotomy is false for true knowledge will reveal to you that this world and its occupants do not conform to the childish notion of seeing everything in its entirety in black and white.
‘The more knowledge you acquire the more grey spaces that you will see in between for knowledge in its raw, undigested form Is paralysing
5E0A6612-493B-499D-859A-10831A6411D4.gif

.

This comic strip accurately sums up the situation that you are embroiled in.
You are rendered incapable of processing The onslaught of information that you recieve from a wide array of sources for you have been trained from ever since you can remember to view the world through the
Narrow lens of Satans vs god, seek out a non existent duality In everything

Blasphemy. Fear of God.

Words that are thrown around by the lot of you in every conversation, every discussion.
The metallic tang of fear of the heavens, the all knowing omnipotent being who reigns from high above you, permeates your atmosphere and clouds your thinking.
These religions demand blind submission to an incredibly narcissistic higher authority. Anything less than subjugation of the masses is deemed blasphemous, an affront to the higher up.
Islamic Terrorism that has claimed the lives of millions and to date obstructs the attainment of even a vague semblance of world peace , the pitiful state of the Western Christian civilization that is mired in debauchery and immorality are the dying embers of these faiths.

Hinduism offers a radically different , some what refreshing relieving perspective.
The Vedas , core texts of Hinduism, states clearmy that God is nothing but higher consciousness.
The Sanskrit word for God is Paramatma which means the Universal Spirit that suffuses the cosmos.Hindu teachings repeatedly reinforces the oneness of the creator and its creations and abstains from creating a polarizing dichotomy of God and the Devil.
No flying horses. No throne in heaven. No eternal damnation. The Karma theory that


Apotheosis ,Ascending to the level of the gods, attaing oneness with the Supreme Being, is deemed the highest goal of human existence and pursued actively by Hindu seers and sages.
This is unthinkably blasphemous for the adherent of an Abrahamic faith.

The emphasis placed on the after life , eternal damnation and the idea of there existing a heaven and hell have wrecked havoc in the world . When Islamic terrorists fight the holy war and seek martyrdom , the 72 virgins of Jahannum are their ultimate goal, the light at the end of treacherous tunnel of Jihad.
The psychological trauma afflicted on young homosexuals raised in the Christian faith etc.


Hibduism is a lease of life for all those who wish to break free from the shackles of dogma and venture into a journey of spirituality without placing confines on their thinking.


“The Lord said: My beloved friend! Why yield, just on the eve of battle, to this weakness which does no credit to those who call themselves Aryans, and only brings them infamy and bars against them the gates of heaven? O Arjuna! Why give way to unmanliness? O thou who art the terror of thine enemies! Shake off such shameful effeminacy, make ready to act!

Blessed are the soldiers who find their opportunity. This opportunity has opened for thee the gates of heaven.




as for the rest..
hinduism is an open ended religion basically, it's more a philosophy with different belief systems within it..and ive even been told by one hindu that the abrahimic religions are like a branch of hinduism itself
now that does fall in line with what Krishna himself said, eg the scriptures are like leaves of a tree that's in heaven.


but look, Advaita Vedanta completely despises the idolatory and deva worship of the common hindu.
what good is itt for you to wank on about your superior beliefs when the majority of hindus live like shit, are smelly and literally worship astral entities? wash yourselves ffs.

what good is it to talk about Brahman and Vishnu whilst the majority are into dark practices which inc people who literally marry dogs and snakes to appease 'the gods' who are, as i said, astral beings and not even of the Brahmaloka kind but the lower lower devaloka kind..
ignorance, i suppose, but that's part of your problem.



lastly, don't mix up religions. the jews dont believe in a satan. the christians have a warped interpretation of the duality of good and evil due to the way they've misunderstood the OT and hence personified 'the devil' as the face of all evil.
islam only calls iblees 'a satan' and it recognises that evil isnt a being. it's a state/condition.

Apotheosis..
not necessary. the human spirit is a drop of the ocean of vishnu..
humans don't need to be serving anything that is in effect, on a later level of development in cosmological order.
whilst in christianity and hinduism, vishnu/the logos is 'God', in islam, only Brahman is God...and vishnu and atman are the macrocosmic and microcosmic expressions of God's Immanence only.
they are not to be directly worshipped since the Immance is in all things.
i respect that hindus do understand that this Immanence is in ALL things..whilst the christians who have poor understanding think only Jesus 'the Logos in flesh' is God, without realising the Logos/Son is in all things..is everything.

krishna himself said that vishnu would come into the world in avatar form when darkness prevails. so vishnu came into the world as Jesus.
india's hinduism has been fked long ago.

yeh...say no more.
 






Nikōn

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Joined
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Messages
265
Hibduism is a lease of life for all those who wish to break free from the shackles of dogma and venture into a journey of spirituality without placing confines on their thinking.
Not really. The best thing Hinduism in general brought, was it's Yogic and Tantric practices.
Aside from that Hinduism is basically just a large conglomeration of assorted mythology, philosophy and practices orientated around particular ethnic groups within India, ancient and modern.
Everything you've typed in support of Hinduism is problematic without defining a specific niche groups within Hinduism that actually adheres specifically to what you speak of.
A huge amount of Hindus also completely contradict your proposed morality.

A more general Dharmic map but a useful one:
 






Nikōn

Established
Joined
Jun 23, 2021
Messages
265
The Christian conception of God makes claims that the Islamic one does not, and that view contradicts in places as well. Accordingly 2+2 cannot make 4 and 5.

Logically, both views may mischaracterise God and therefore be incorrect, but logic dictates that contradictory views cannot all be true.
Abraham is a figure from antiquity; stories about the putative discoverer
of the One God contain material that may date from the third millennium
BCE. His name entered Old English from Hebrew as early as the eleventh
century CE, although the term “Abrahamic” did not appear in its original
sense—“relating to, or characteristic of the biblical patriarch, Abraham”—
until 1699. “Abrahamic” in this book means principally “belonging to the
group of religions comprising Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, which
trace their origin to Abraham,” a twentieth-century usage. This definition
updates the commonplace observation that Judaism, Christianity, and
Islam—the “Abrahamic religions”—are somehow closely related. Not
everyone likes this expression or its categorical implications. Some
scholars object that the term “Abrahamic” can mislead, especially insofar
as it may exaggerate the three religions’ similarities and the likelihood
that Jews, Christians, and Muslims can set their differences aside. Others
regard the categorization itself as incoherent, given adherents’
fundamental divisions over matters such as what scriptures they consider
canonical and how they understand God’s nature.
But relegating Judaism, Christianity, and Islam to separate spheres
discounts their affinities. Even as they strove to differentiate themselves
polemically, they acknowledged that they shared a common deity and took
notice of each other’s sacred texts. By the seventh century BCE, a passage
in the future Jewish Bible already proclaimed: “Hear, O Israel. The LORD
[is] our God, the LORD alone” (Deut. 6:4). Few early Christians spurned
these writings or rejected the God they unveiled. Rather, Christianity
embraced both while advancing a counterclaim: Jews did not worship the
wrong god(s) but had gotten God wrong, failing to recognize His
incarnation. Islam, in turn, accepted Tawrat (the Torah) and Injil (the
Gospel) as valid revelations, but asserted the Quran’s primacy. Muslims
accused Jews and Christians of corrupting their own holy books and
denying that Muhammad was the ultimate prophet, but nonetheless
allowed that their rivals also worshipped the One God. Meanwhile, Jews
looking over their shoulders at Christians and Muslims upheld the
integrity and superiority of their own formulations, as did Christian
apologists (defenders of the faith). These disputes often displayed the
rancor characteristic of civil wars—or frays between members of an
extended religious family.
One can classify Judaism, Christianity, and Islam variously. From one
perspective, they are monotheisms, religions that uphold God’s singularity.
Islam itself provides another view, linking them by a tradition of
continued divine revelation disclosed in scripture and culminating in the
Quran. Muslims regard Jews and Christians as “People of the Book”—a
name that outside observers occasionally apply to Muslims too. As apt as
these designations may be, however, they do not entirely differentiate
these three religions from others. Sikhism and ancient Egyptian Atenism,
for example, also qualify as monotheisms, and Muslims came to include
Zoroastrians and Hindus as other “People of the Book.” The most useful
term for collating Judaism, Christianity, and Islam into a single category is
“Abrahamic,” which distinguishes them by stressing the significance they
accord Abraham: Israel’s founding patriarch for Jews, guarantor of the
covenant for Christians, and a prophet for Muslims. Their Abrahamic
identities unite the religions conceptually, even while frequently
polarizing their adherents.
To observe that Jews, Christians, and Muslims believe they worship the
same God does not imply that their traditions preach the same message.
Although the ethics of the world’s religions may converge, their doctrines,
laws, and mythologies do not. Nevertheless, the fact that Judaism,
Christianity, and Islam so readily reference one another while speaking
about the One God suggests how closely linked they are. They express this
connection in the language of divinity, but its foundations are historical.
More than doctrine or even an overlapping vision of Abraham, they share
an association through time. Hence I approach them as a historian,

respecting their faith commitments without judging them.
(from the preface of Charles L. Cohen's "The Abrahamic Religions; A Very Short Introduction".


The problem is where you draw the line.

If Christians and Muslims don't worship "the same God" (that being the God of Abraham), then do Christians and Jews worship the same God?
Not merely that, do sects within the same Abrahamic religions worship the same God?
Do Orthodox and Hasidic Jews worship the same God? What about their ancient predecessors? Did Pharisees worship the same God that the Sadducees and Essenes worshiped? What about the Samaritans, do they worship the same God?
Do Catholics, Arians, Nestorians, Orthodox, Lutherans, Anglicans, Calvinists, Baptists, Unitarian variants, Pentecostals, Methodists, Evangelicals, Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons all worship the same God?
Do Sunnis and Shias worship the same God?

All of them believe that they believe in the God of Abraham.
If 1 doesn't equal 1, and a house is not a house, a car is not a car, a bike is not a bike, a cat is not a cat. Then there would be something wrong.
 






Red Sky at Morning

Superstar
Joined
Mar 15, 2017
Messages
11,264
Abraham is a figure from antiquity; stories about the putative discoverer
of the One God contain material that may date from the third millennium
BCE. His name entered Old English from Hebrew as early as the eleventh
century CE, although the term “Abrahamic” did not appear in its original
sense—“relating to, or characteristic of the biblical patriarch, Abraham”—
until 1699. “Abrahamic” in this book means principally “belonging to the
group of religions comprising Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, which
trace their origin to Abraham,” a twentieth-century usage. This definition
updates the commonplace observation that Judaism, Christianity, and
Islam—the “Abrahamic religions”—are somehow closely related. Not
everyone likes this expression or its categorical implications. Some
scholars object that the term “Abrahamic” can mislead, especially insofar
as it may exaggerate the three religions’ similarities and the likelihood
that Jews, Christians, and Muslims can set their differences aside. Others
regard the categorization itself as incoherent, given adherents’
fundamental divisions over matters such as what scriptures they consider
canonical and how they understand God’s nature.
But relegating Judaism, Christianity, and Islam to separate spheres
discounts their affinities. Even as they strove to differentiate themselves
polemically, they acknowledged that they shared a common deity and took
notice of each other’s sacred texts. By the seventh century BCE, a passage
in the future Jewish Bible already proclaimed: “Hear, O Israel. The LORD
[is] our God, the LORD alone” (Deut. 6:4). Few early Christians spurned
these writings or rejected the God they unveiled. Rather, Christianity
embraced both while advancing a counterclaim: Jews did not worship the
wrong god(s) but had gotten God wrong, failing to recognize His
incarnation. Islam, in turn, accepted Tawrat (the Torah) and Injil (the
Gospel) as valid revelations, but asserted the Quran’s primacy. Muslims
accused Jews and Christians of corrupting their own holy books and
denying that Muhammad was the ultimate prophet, but nonetheless
allowed that their rivals also worshipped the One God. Meanwhile, Jews
looking over their shoulders at Christians and Muslims upheld the
integrity and superiority of their own formulations, as did Christian
apologists (defenders of the faith). These disputes often displayed the
rancor characteristic of civil wars—or frays between members of an
extended religious family.
One can classify Judaism, Christianity, and Islam variously. From one
perspective, they are monotheisms, religions that uphold God’s singularity.
Islam itself provides another view, linking them by a tradition of
continued divine revelation disclosed in scripture and culminating in the
Quran. Muslims regard Jews and Christians as “People of the Book”—a
name that outside observers occasionally apply to Muslims too. As apt as
these designations may be, however, they do not entirely differentiate
these three religions from others. Sikhism and ancient Egyptian Atenism,
for example, also qualify as monotheisms, and Muslims came to include
Zoroastrians and Hindus as other “People of the Book.” The most useful
term for collating Judaism, Christianity, and Islam into a single category is
“Abrahamic,” which distinguishes them by stressing the significance they
accord Abraham: Israel’s founding patriarch for Jews, guarantor of the
covenant for Christians, and a prophet for Muslims. Their Abrahamic
identities unite the religions conceptually, even while frequently
polarizing their adherents.
To observe that Jews, Christians, and Muslims believe they worship the
same God does not imply that their traditions preach the same message.
Although the ethics of the world’s religions may converge, their doctrines,
laws, and mythologies do not. Nevertheless, the fact that Judaism,
Christianity, and Islam so readily reference one another while speaking
about the One God suggests how closely linked they are. They express this
connection in the language of divinity, but its foundations are historical.
More than doctrine or even an overlapping vision of Abraham, they share
an association through time. Hence I approach them as a historian,

respecting their faith commitments without judging them.
(from the preface of Charles L. Cohen's "The Abrahamic Religions; A Very Short Introduction".


The problem is where you draw the line.

If Christians and Muslims don't worship "the same God" (that being the God of Abraham), then do Christians and Jews worship the same God?
Not merely that, do sects within the same Abrahamic religions worship the same God?
Do Orthodox and Hasidic Jews worship the same God? What about their ancient predecessors? Did Pharisees worship the same God that the Sadducees and Essenes worshiped? What about the Samaritans, do they worship the same God?
Do Catholics, Arians, Nestorians, Orthodox, Lutherans, Anglicans, Calvinists, Baptists, Unitarian variants, Pentecostals, Methodists, Evangelicals, Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons all worship the same God?
Do Sunnis and Shias worship the same God?

All of them believe that they believe in the God of Abraham.
If 1 doesn't equal 1, and a house is not a house, a car is not a car, a bike is not a bike, a cat is not a cat. Then there would be something wrong.
OK, to summarise your observations above, you contend that the Abrahamic faiths have so much in common that it is needless to make a distinction between them.

You then as the question where such fine grading of truth might end if not in that encompassing embrace.

Have I understood you correctly?
 






Nikōn

Established
Joined
Jun 23, 2021
Messages
265
OK, to summarise your observations above, you contend that the Abrahamic faiths have so much in common that it is needless to make a distinction between them.

You then as the question where such fine grading of truth might end if not in that encompassing embrace.

Have I understood you correctly?
No, I think you should read the quoted paragraphs form that book again, especially the last paragraph.

Stating the obvious fact that they all claim to worship the same God, doesn't make their particular doctrines and views on things identical, that is ridiculous. It is obvious that Christians believe in atonement, whereas Jews and Muslims believe in repentance. This is all to obvious.
Your doctrinal slant does not mean that such a false dichotomy as "either I worship X or so-and-so don't worship X". You both claim to worship the same God and the same ultimate defining theological characteristics, as well as Prophetic and historical associations.
It comes down to, especially in terms of trinitarian Christian POV, you offering an addition to the basic definition of the God of Abraham.
This is fine of course with reservations that it is readily admitted.
Who is "true" and "false" is not relevant to these categorical typologies which are strongly embedded in the theological foundations of these traditions.

I think for me, studying all of these traditions and their polemics against each other, I see strong tendencies with theologians trying to attack certain things in another religion and sect from the Abrahamic tradition, will often attack from a slant completely the opposite as another theologian. I find it quite revealing in terms of what various theologians are going for.
One example is that early on in Christian history before there was any sense of uniformity of doctrine and canon, the figure of Marcion held the view that "the God of the Jews" was a different God to the God of Jesus and therefore rejected the Jewish scriptures entirely.
The various Christian sects known as the "Gnostics" often held similar views but with much more complex theologies.
Whereas on the other hand many hysterical modern day Christians will often try to attack Islam as either having nothing to do with Judaism/Christianity, completely severing it from being a valid voice in the discussion, or in the contrary claiming that it is just a Christian heresy (which is a fringe orientalist myth with very little academic support).

Fundamentally, as Christianity tends to be the one who wants to be the lynch-pin. We have this; Jews worship YHWH. Jesus worshiped YHWH calling him "The Father". Christianity developed a theology known as trinitarianism which posits God as consisting equally of three 'persons', Father Son and Holy Spirit. The holy spirit being a concept referring to divine presence and revelation in the Jewish scriptures.
Islam on the other hand, upholding all three parts of the trinity with none of their connotations - 'The Father' (not termed as such) being just God (Allah), 'the Son' (Jesus) just being Jesus, and the Holy Spirit being the Angel Gabriel (present in Judaism and Christianity).

One can hardly say that the three general religions believe in different Gods, far from it, it is obvious that Christianity has a formulation that adds and changes correlations and definitions, in comparison to the meanings of it's terms within Judaism and Islam. Again, not speaking in terms of who and who isn't "true" but rather in terms of what is actually objectively being claimed by these traditions.

In terms of Semitic language too, whether you admit or not, it's pretty consistent that the Hebrew word "EL" is the general for "God" (and "Elah" which is the word in Hebrew for God in the singular). Jesus spoke Aramaic and the Aramaic word for God is "Alaha/Elaha" (you will remember his famous words "eli eli lama sabachthani"). Whereas, Arabic is related to both Hebrew and Aramaic, therefore the Arabic word for the singular-God is "Allah".
 






Last edited:

Nikōn

Established
Joined
Jun 23, 2021
Messages
265
Yes I lost my mum at 5. I could also see this as a test, because it was, but it also could just be an unfortunate set of circumstances, which it was. My mum was very religious...prayed every day....dead at 27 leaving her children with a womanising alcoholic. Did God answer my mums prayers there then?

I will leave it there for now I know you have a very strong set of beliefs, but so do I. Your's come from a book....mine cones from my life.
Well since you were talking to a Muslim, the Qur'an has a very powerful passage about this very topic:


Among the people are those who dispute concerning God without any knowledge or guidance, or an enlightening Book,
turning aside disdainfully to lead [others] astray from the way of God. For such there is disgrace in this world, and on the Day of Resurrection We will make him taste the punishment of the burning:
‘That is because of what your own hands have sent ahead, and because God is not tyrannical to the servants.’
And among the people are those who worship God on the [very] fringe: if good fortune befalls him, he is content with it; but if an ordeal visits him he makes a turnabout, to become a loser in the world and the Hereafter. That is the manifest loss.

He invokes besides God that which can bring him neither benefit nor harm. That is extreme error.
- Qur'an, 22:8-12
 






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