Differences between the Bible and Islam

Zakat

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There are certainly some aspects of Islam that I like, but they don't believe Jesus was the son of God so I'm not going to join them and have to sit on the naughty step..:)

View attachment 96430
This term no longer applies.

The era of Jesus's Prophethood has passed already.

We are now in the timeline of Prophet Muhammad, the Last Prophet Sent to guide mankind towards salvation.

Jesus is returning soon to follow the way of Muhammad, religion Perfected, and then the world will end.
 

Flarepath

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The era of Jesus's Prophethood has passed already.
We are now in the timeline of Prophet Muhammad, the Last Prophet Sent to guide mankind towards salvation.
All assorted oddball cults say their leaders are prophets..:)
For example the Mormons claim their Joseph Smith was a prophet even though he was killed in a gunfight.
PS- Smith had at least 28 wives on the go simultaneously, he was an Elvis lookalike (below) so his pelvis must have been working overtime..:)

rel-Joseph_Smith.jpg
 
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Zakat

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All assorted oddball cults say their leaders are prophets..:)
For example the JW's claim their Joseph Smith was a prophet even though he was killed in a gunfight.
PS- Smith had at least 28 wives on the go simultaneously, he was an Elvis lookalike (below) so his pelvis must have been working overtime..:)

View attachment 96433
The truth is the truth and there's only one of it, and it is God Who Makes it so.

It is an advice. Take it or leave it. Peace.
 

Flarepath

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Joseph "Dirty Harry" Smith in action-
"I know what you're thinking punk, did he fire all his shots or has he got one left?"

joseph_smiths_last_stand.jpg

smith3.jpg
 
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I’m not going to derail the thread out of respect to Toxic, so I’ll only answer you once. Otherwise start a thread with all your concerns and questions about Muslims and Islam and how backwards we are. You can also include some pointers as to how we can be more like you, the beacon of western progressive thought.

Honour killings are entirely cultural. They are very common in south Asian communities. We have had some high profile honour killings in the UK and it’s usually when a daughter goes against the wishes of her parents with regards to spousal arrangements or dating ‘unfavourable’ people. I am not south Asian so that’s all I can say on the matter. There is nothing in the Quran which justifies it, it is entirely cultural and a despicable and evil act. Also, it’s not a Muslim specific thing, many from South Asia are also Hindu or Sikh, this is an abhorrent CULTURAL practice.
This is interesting, bolded part in particular.

I have a question: would cultural practices that are not specified by the Quran be a remnant of whatever beliefs those populations held in pre-Islamic times?

Does Islam allow for these cultural practices* to continue in the sense of not condemning them, or by not insisting on a (for lack of a better way to word it) uniform standard of beliefs or practices?

(This can either be discussed in this thread or a separate one, doesn't matter to me).

*also, for example, the case of female circumcision. From what i understand it is primarily a cultural custom in certain regions of Africa, practiced by Christians and pagans of the region as well, yet in the west it is associated with Islam.
 
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honor killings
In the interest of fairness, i will acknowledge that a subject similar to honor killing is mentioned in the Bible Old Testament, especially since it appears several pro-Islam sites bring it up in defense of accusations of honor killings. (A better defense would be "no, we don't condone that, it is wrong", not "your book allows it too!" but what do i know...)

Leviticus 21:9
9And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the whore, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire



A few things to keep in context:

- this command was specifically given to the priests (tribe of Levi), not to Christians, or even Israelites in general. If any people claiming to be Christian are engaging in this practice it is definitely not because Christians are commanded to.

- as i mentioned in an earlier post regarding why the command was given to kill family members who attempted to lure someone into idolatry, the context of when this command was given was that the Israelites were surrounded by pagans. One of the customs of the pagans was temple prostitution. So the context was not simply a daughter dishonoring her father, but actually serving one of the pagan cults/idolatry. Why else would it be specified for a priest's daughter?

- another thing to consider is that the priests were provided livestock and grain from the other tribes

Deu 18
3And this shall be the priest's due from the people, from them that offer a sacrifice, whether it be ox or sheep; and they shall give unto the priest the shoulder, and the two cheeks, and the maw. 4The firstfruit also of thy corn, of thy wine, and of thine oil, and the first of the fleece of thy sheep, shalt thou give him. 5For the LORD thy God hath chosen him out of all thy tribes, to stand to minister in the name of the LORD, him and his sons for ever

In other words, food was provided for them and their families. As economic (as opposed to religious) prostitution is a last resort, this would have been an unnecessary act for a priest's daughter.
 
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The story of Joseph has much less differences between the Bible and Quran compared to some of the other ones that have been discussed in the thread. The differences appear to continue along the theme that no one who is chosen by God tells any lies or does anything wrong, whereas the Bible shows characters' human flaws.

Joseph's story is found in ch 37, 39- 50 in book of Genesis in Bible and in ch 12 of Quran (perhaps other places as well, but i found the complete story in ch 12). I'm basing this comparison just off what i read in the Quran, so if there's anything else to add from other sources feel free to post it.


Similarities

-Joseph dreams of his brothers, mother and father bowing to him. (Gen 37:5-10; Quran 12:4)


- the brothers plot to kill Joseph, but one brother (identified as Reuben in the Bible [Gen 37:21]) convinces them to leave him alive. Gen 37:18-24, Quran 12:9-10


- the brothers bring back to Jacob bloodstained clothing as proof of his death. Gen 37:21, Quran12:18


- Joseph is sold for a few pieces of silver. Gen 37:28, Quran 12:20


- the wife of the man Joseph is sold to sexually harasses him, he refuses the advances Gen 39:7-10, Quran 12:23


- Joseph interprets the dreams of two other prisoners. Gen 40:3-23, Quran 12:36, 41-42


- Joseph interprets the pharaoh's dream. Gen 41:15-36, Quran 12:45-49


- Joseph is put in charge of all the grain. Gen 41:40-43, Quran 12:54-55


- when Joseph's brothers come he asks for Benjamin to be brought to him. Gen 42:13,16, Quran 12:58-59



Differences

- Joseph is their father's favorite and his brothers resent this. Gen 37:4
Joseph AND Benjamin are their father's favorites. Quran12:8


- Jacob sends Joseph to look for his brothers. Gen 37:13-14
the brothers convince Jacob to let Joseph go with them. Quran 12:12


- Jacob believes the clothing is stained with Joseph's blood. Gen 37:33-33
Joseph's father does NOT believe their story Quran. 12:18


- Joseph's brothers sell him to travelling merchants. Gen 37:26-28
Travellers find Joseph and sell him. Quran 12:19-20 (the commentary stated that some commentators believe Joseph's brothers sold him)


- Joseph's master believes his wife. Gen 39:19-20, his name is never cleared about this matter
Joseph's master believes his innocence. Quran 12:28-29, and his name is cleared Quran 12:50-53



- Joseph is jailed because his master believes his wife. Gen 39:20
Joseph prays to be jailed because his master's wife continues to harass him. Quran 12:33-35


- the pharoah has Joseph marry the daughter of a pagan priest. Gen 41:45
Joseph preaches monotheism while imprisoned (Quran 12:38-40) and there is no mention of a pagan wife, or any wife.

- Joseph orders for his brother's money to be returned to their bags (vs25), they are afraid when they notice. (Gen 42:28, 35) When they return, Joseph tells them that he had their money all along. Gen 43:23
Joseph's motive for this act is given as him wanting them to return, they are grateful. Quran12:62, 65


- Joseph identifies himself to Benjamin (Quran12:69) long before he identifies himself to his other brothers. Quran 12:90
Joseph identifies himself to all his brothers at the same time. Gen 45:3-4

- Joseph's shirt cures Jacob of blindness. (Quran 12:93,96)
There is no mention of Jacob being blind in the Bible.
 

Haich

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This is interesting, bolded part in particular.

I have a question: would cultural practices that are not specified by the Quran be a remnant of whatever beliefs those populations held in pre-Islamic times?

Does Islam allow for these cultural practices* to continue in the sense of not condemning them, or by not insisting on a (for lack of a better way to word it) uniform standard of beliefs or practices?

(This can either be discussed in this thread or a separate one, doesn't matter to me).

*also, for example, the case of female circumcision. From what i understand it is primarily a cultural custom in certain regions of Africa, practiced by Christians and pagans of the region as well, yet in the west it is associated with Islam.
The Quran makes mention of pre Islamic cultural practises which God condemns. One example being female babies being buried alive as Pagan Arabs wanted sons not daughters. Cultural practices which aren’t mentioned follow the criteria of condemnation of those mentioned by God in the Quran.

I can’t answer the second part of your question, I don’t have knowledge of every culture or community that follows Islam. Maybe their practices predate Islam and maybe they don’t. You’d have to undertake a huge study to answer this as Islam is expansive, from Russian Muslims to remote Muslims in African villages…

My native culture has a horrific practice called FGM. This isn’t part of Islam yet they still practice it. That’s how it is, people will follow their religion and pepper in aspects of their culture which clearly go against it.

The Quran isn’t a rule book and doesn’t just list every single thing that’s forbidden. It makes a clear claim to leave that which harms you (let’s say drugs or alcohol) and that which harms the wider society (premarital sex, adultery etc). FGM and honour killings fall under that category as you’re either committing murder or disfiguring and harming someone. Murder is of course forbidden as is oppressing and brining harm to someone. So obviously FGM and honour killings are also not permitted.

You are right, FGM isn’t solely practiced by Muslims, there are pagan and Christian communities which do it too. It’s vile and abhorrent.

You know Islam sets out a uniform set of beliefs and practices so I don’t understand what you’re asking that question.

You mean to tell me in the West they portray FGM as solely a Muslim issue? Well gee I wonder why, Toxic? It’s quite clear the west has a preoccupation with making Islam looking as backwards and barbaric as they can yet it continues to grow. Probably because people end up looking into The Quran and speaking to Muslims and realising half the nonsense they’ve been fed is false.
 
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people will follow their religion and pepper in aspects of their culture which clearly go against it.
Yeah, that about sums up my gripes with catholicism. Taking Christianity and mixing it with a bunch of paganism and cultural elements which are not found in the Bible.

But - hypocrisy time! - the same people that will defend the european pagan customs which were assimilated into Christianity but are not biblical (like yule logs, mistletoe, christmas trees, etc, not to mention the worshipping of pagan deities as "saints") suddenly are opposed to paganism when it has to do with integrating paganism from non european cultures.

Murder is of course forbidden as is oppressing and brining harm to someone. So obviously FGM and honour killings are also not permitted.

You are right, FGM isn’t solely practiced by Muslims, there are pagan and Christian communities which do it too. It’s vile and abhorrent.

You know Islam sets out a uniform set of beliefs and practices so I don’t understand what you’re asking that question.
I guess what i was asking is why is there not more condemnation about it from within Islam, since it is not a part of Islam.
(And i could be mistaken, maybe there IS condemnation from within, but everything i read mostly had the rebuttal of "you guys do it too".)
 
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No Christian is required to mutilate ANY child (or adult), male or female.

Acts 15
1And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved. 2When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question. 3And being brought on their way by the church, they passed through Phenice and Samaria, declaring the conversion of the Gentiles: and they caused great joy unto all the brethren. 4And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them.


5But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.

6And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter. 7And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. 8And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; 9And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. 10Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? 11But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

12Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.

13And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me: 14Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. 15And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,

16After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:

17That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

18Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. 19Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: 20But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. 21For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day
1 Corinthians 7
18Is any man called being circumcised? let him not become uncircumcised. Is any called in uncircumcision? let him not be circumcised. 19Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God. 20Let every man abide in the same calling wherein he was called

Christians have the circumcision of the heart

Colossians 2
11In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ


There's also the matter of modern circumcision being much more extreme than what was practiced in biblical times.


Although uncomfortable, this original biblical circumcision, as demanded by God, was really a minor procedure where only the very tip of the foreskin was removed. This was that small portion which extended past the bulbous structure (the glans) at the end of the flaccid human penis. The penis bled and needed time to heal, but would still contain a considerable portion of the foreskin, so that the glans was still protected. In its flaccid condition, the penis would appear as uncircumcised.4

This would be the type of circumcision that Jesus received eight days after his birth. For thousands of years the procedure never changed, from Abraham until around the year 140 A.D., when a second and more radical step to the ritual was introduced. It was dictated by man — not God. The Jewish religious governing body “sought to put an end to the practice of youths desiring to appear uncircumcised by stretching the remaining foreskin for social [and] economic benefits and for sports competitions.” This stretching would obliterate the Jewish cut, so as to disguise ‘the seal of the covenant’.6



Around 140 AD, was that around the time they started the unbiblical suctioning by mouth of the baby's genitals that still continues to date?

I only found out about this recently, but video is from a few years ago. This is still going on. And when they talk about "protecting the children" they mean to protect them from catching herpes, not to protect them from the abuse of having a grown man suck their genitals.

Putting a child's genitals in a mouth is p3dophilia. The motive is irrelevant, it's the act that matters. Just as how it's commonly known that r*pe is about power.


And no, the Bible does not say to do this in this method. As the article says, it dates to the year 200 or so. And there are other less pervy ways of preventing blood clotting, but about 3000 boys a year are subject to this regardless.
State sanctioned child abuse in the name of religion.


 

Haich

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Yeah, that about sums up my gripes with catholicism. Taking Christianity and mixing it with a bunch of paganism and cultural elements which are not found in the Bible.

But - hypocrisy time! - the same people that will defend the european pagan customs which were assimilated into Christianity but are not biblical (like yule logs, mistletoe, christmas trees, etc, not to mention the worshipping of pagan deities as "saints") suddenly are opposed to paganism when it has to do with integrating paganism from non european cultures.


I guess what i was asking is why is there not more condemnation about it from within Islam, since it is not a part of Islam.
(And i could be mistaken, maybe there IS condemnation from within, but everything i read mostly had the rebuttal of "you guys do it too".)
But don’t some Christians also celebrate those pagan rituals? There were actually Christians on here like Thunderian who openly celebrated Christmas with all its trimmings. I don’t think it’s fair to say it’s solely a catholic thing.

To play devil’s advocate, I know Christians don’t worship Paul, but there are Christians that take Paul’s word as above all. Wouldn’t this be considered associating partnership with Jesus?

How did you come to that conclusion? What makes you think that it isn’t condemned? It is vehemently condemned across the board. You’re not part of the community so you wouldn’t of course know that. In the grand scheme of things, there are so many Muslims and only a tiny fraction practise these disgusting practices.
 

Flarepath

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But don’t some Christians also celebrate those pagan rituals?
To play devil’s advocate, I know Christians don’t worship Paul, but there are Christians that take Paul’s word as above all.

I bet satan is ROFLing because he's made the Jehovah's Witnesses refuse to celebrate the birth of Jesus (Christmas) and his resurrection (Easter) because they think they're pagan dates..:)
As for Paul, he and Jesus were singing from the same song sheet, but if people tried to put him on a pedestal he had to remind them not to-
"..Was Paul crucified for you?" (1 Cor 1:12/13)
 
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elsbet's cat ^. .^

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There are many times the phrase ‘son of God’ is used without Jesus. Here’s a few, but there’s many more.
Indeed, madam.
Let's see what you've found.

. . .
Old Testament
Genesis 6:4 ESV
The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of man and they bore children to them. These were the mighty men who were of old, the men of renown.
Correct.
The Fallen* ones were in the earth in those days; and also after, when the sons of God (bənê hā ’ĕlōhîm) went in to the daughters of men (bənōwṯ hā ’ā·ḏām) and bore children to them.
* YLT

• Elohim = God -> sons of God
• Adam = Mankind -> sons + daughters of men

Clearly, there is a difference between the two; the first group is supernatural, the latter is mortal.

Job 1:6
Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them.
Same thing: bənê hā ’ĕlōhîm = sons of God.

New Testament
Romans 8:19 ESV
For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God
Matthew 5:9 ESV

“Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God.
Both cases refer to the future.
• they shall be called
• longing for the revealing of

Men were not called sons of God in the Old Testament; the New Testament verses should be self-explanatory. And not one of the instances above refers to Jesus Christ, which should be evident-- so I'm not sure how you thought they would help to disprove the fact Jesus is the Son of God. :/
. . .
 
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But don’t some Christians also celebrate those pagan rituals? There were actually Christians on here like Thunderian who openly celebrated Christmas with all its trimmings. I don’t think it’s fair to say it’s solely a catholic thing.
Yes, some - dare i say most - do.

I don't know who thunderian is, must have been before my time, but i have seen Christians on here defending not just acknowledging that date as Jesus' birthday (which a reading of scripture would make unlikely, not to mention that we are not commanded to celebrate His birthday [or even birthdays in general, as the Bible associates the occasion of a birthday with a misfortune a couple of times... but that's a whole other discussion]), but also defending the pagan elements specifically.

I can't judge another believer. I just point out that it is pagan. After that i leave it to their conscience. It does not help that the majority of churches promote it. Many Christians do not know.

As for it not being a catholic thing only, yes that goes back to what ive said about the reformation. The reformers picked and chose which unbiblical doctrines to scrap and which to keep. (And as i mentioned in my other post, i think those reformers who were given credibility instead of being branded "heretics" are controlled opposition)

In my opinion, true reformation is not an attempt at salvaging the wreck the catholics made over the years, but going back to a time before the legitimizing (and then enforcing by the sword) of catholicism - and only catholicism, with it's changing doctrines - as the roman empire's religion.

To play devil’s advocate, I know Christians don’t worship Paul, but there are Christians that take Paul’s word as above all. Wouldn’t this be considered associating partnership with Jesus?
I have to admit, this "associating partnership" concept is difficult to grasp...

Paul himself says that the only mediator between man and God is Jesus, so Paul is not making himself out to be the Messiah or son of God or anything.

By "taking Paul's word above all", i think what is being said is that Christians will cite from the epsistles when it comes to doctrine as opposed to Old Testament law? (Or am i misunderstanding the question?)

Paul was the apostle to the gentiles, so his ministry was focused on preaching to non Jews. There are things that applicable to the Jews but not to gentile Christians, like circumcision as i mentioned in an earlier post.
 
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How did you come to that conclusion? What makes you think that it isn’t condemned? It is vehemently condemned across the board. You’re not part of the community so you wouldn’t of course know that. In the grand scheme of things, there are so many Muslims and only a tiny fraction practise these disgusting practices.
As i mentioned, if the rebuttal is "your book has it too" it comes across as a weak condemnation, if at all.
(No, i don't know the author's background, just hat he is promoting Islam)

(And i already explained the flaws in his reasoning about 10 posts ago)
Many Christians are often fond of accusing Muslims of committing several honor killings in the name of Islam; they then use this line of argument as a reason to discredit Islam in their eyes. In this article we shall once again turn the table on the Christian showing that honor killings can be found in the Bible, and that the Bible is for honor killings! Hence by their own criteria, Christians will have to abandon their own book.

Let us now see the honor killings in the Bibles:

Lev 21:9 And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the whore, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire.


So note, if the priests daughter commits a bad sexual act, she is to be burned because of her fathers reputation, because it is against his honor. What will Christian say now? This is one example of honor killing in the Bible, in fact the act is ordered by the Bible itself.
As this article says "mainstream" Islamic leaders publicly condemn the practice.

Today, global mainstream Islamic leaders continue to publicly condemn these vigilante misogynistic homicides done beneath the faith’s banner. An umbrella religious organization called the All Pakistan Ulema Council once publicly issued a national fatwa (or “religious decree”) in 2014 publicly declaring that “killing of girls in the name of honor or dignity is terrorism and viciousness—which has nothing to do with Islam.” It continued by saying that a “daughter is a gift by Allah. And the feeling of being dishonored by your daughter is forbidden in Islam… Killing one’s daughter and humiliating them is a sign of ignorance” and completely violates basic Islamic teachings.
I think the concern is mostly about those who are not part of the "mainstream". Now, are some individuals using religion as an excuse to perform these acts? That could be.

But yes, as not a member of the Islamic community i acknowledge that i just know what i read online about it.
 
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