Difference Between Various Stories Across Abrahamic Religions

[manama]

Since, the Vc case for Christ was becoming a huge mess due to so many different topics being discussed at the same time, I made a new thread.
The point of discussion was how different the same stories are when the Biblical version is compared to the Quranic version.
The best and most important one being the story of Jesus Christ p.b.u.h himself,
and various other events as well.

This thread is to discuss those differences whether you are just curious or want to prove why you believe in the one you do and why do you think the Biblical one is true or Quranic one and why do you think the other one isn't?

 

[DisenfranchisedDespot]

Lot and his family being fairly pathetic. Lot offering his daughters to the village in order to protect the angels. His wife disobeying God and looking back. Not becoming intoxicated in a cave and impregnating his daughters.

 

[God_Is_Formless]

Nice post.

So the Abrahamic faiths are Christianity and/or Catholicism (or are both one and the same thing), Islam, and Judaism, correct?

Abraham was the father of Isaac and Ishmael. Through Isaac came Jesus and through Ishmael came Muhammad (Peace, Prayers and Blessings be upon them all). Please do correct me if i am wrong. Thank you.

​

 

[Kung Fu]

I think the main difference between the stories of the Bible and the Quran regards sin. In the Bible, as DD pointed out, a lot of the prophets were great sinners and royally messed up hard at times. From a Quranic point of view, the prophets weren't perfect but were not great sinners and followed the laws of the Most High to a t. They were the best of examples for mankind to follow and therefore couldn't be these drunks and great sinners.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

I think there are things we will be able to tackle with debate and others where we may get into a 'my book is better than yours spin cycle' - Perhaps it would be interesting to look for external corroborative evidence to the accounts, and to look into events that occurred after to see what (if any archeological or other) evidence can be brought to bear in the question.

@mecca - I agree this this thread is more in line with the questions you were wanting to ask in the Case for Christ thread, but they didn't quite fit with the other thread as your starting point was too different...

 

[manama]

I think the main difference between the stories of the Bible and the Quran regards sin. In the Bible, as DD pointed out, a lot of the prophets were great sinners and royally messed up hard at times. From a Quranic point of view, the prophets weren't perfect but were not great sinners and followed the laws of the Most High to a t. They were the best of examples for mankind to follow and therefore couldn't be these drunks and great sinners.

According to Islam if prophet even did make a mistake they were quick to ask for forgiveness. e.g. when Adam and Eve ate the fruit and they realized what they had done, they kept asking for God's forgiveness until God forgave them and this is also what differentiates Adam from iblees/lucifer.
Both disobeyed God, but Adam immediately regretted and asked for forgiveness and mercy whereas Satan instead of asking for forgiveness, was quick to challenge God out of arrogance and jealousy.

The same event in Biblical version, correct me if i am wrong. Adam and Eve didn't ask for forgiveness hence God didn't forgive them and then sacrifice of Jesus was needed.

 

[AspiringSoul]

@manama
I know your thread isn't directly on this topic but I feel I have to talk about this. The Torah was supposed to have been rewritten by Ezra. So typically if a muslim was to find fault they would find it there ie the assumption being that Ezra's torah is not the original Torah. The problem here is Ezra was a prophet of God (Uzair).

The other problem, obviously this happened even before Isa AS. So imagine the Torah in the time of Isa AS was altered...Isa AS would surely have said so. He didn't?
What he did say was, exactly the same thing prophet Jeremiah said

Jeremiah 8:8
"'How can you say, "We are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?
Mark 7:5-13
13 Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that.”

so the prophets along the way didn't ever claim the Torah was false, but they did attack the INTERPRETATION of the law.
now if you understand this correctly, it will be easy for you to make sense of what Allah and the Prophet SAW said about the 'book'

Can ye (o ye men of Faith) entertain the hope that they will believe in you?- Seeing that a party of them heard the Word of Allah, and perverted it knowingly after they understood it… Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say:"This is from Allah," to traffic with it for miserable price!- Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby. (Quran 2:75,79)
There is among them a section who distort the Book with their tongues: (As they read) you would think it is a part of the Book, but it is no part of the Book; and they say, "That is from Allah," but it is not from Allah: It is they who tell a lie against Allah, and (well) they know it! (Quran 3:78)

(6) Narrated Abu Huraira: The people of the Scripture (Jews) used to recite the torah in Hebrew and they used to explain it in Arabic to the Muslims. On that Allah's Apostle said, "Do not believe the people of the Scripture or disbelieve them, but say:-- "We believe in Allah and what is revealed to us." (2.136) (Book #60, Hadith #12)

do you understand this? it refers not to the actual body of the text but the interpretations...and keep in mind the jews also probably wrote Arabic translations of the Torah, could they be trusted 100%?


Now look at all these verses and hadith which clearly give credibility to the Torah.

Surah 2
40 O Children of Israel! call to mind the (special) favour which I bestowed upon you, and fulfil your covenant with Me as I fulfil My Covenant with you, and fear none but Me.
41 And believe in what I reveal, confirming the revelation which is with you, and be not the first to reject Faith therein, nor sell My Signs for a small price; and fear Me, and Me alone.


present tense? what did the jews have WITH THEM at this time? it was the same Torah they follow today, the one rewritten by Ezra.

added context again
42 And cover not Truth with falsehood, nor conceal the Truth when ye know (what it is).

ie 'don't misinterpret your book'

Surah 2
89And when there comes to them a Book from Allah, confirming what is with them,- although from of old they had prayed for victory against those without Faith,- when there comes to them that which they (should) have recognised, they refuse to believe in it but the curse of Allah is on those without Faith.

(6) Do you (faithful believers) covet that they will believe in your religion inspite of the fact that a party of them (Jewish rabbis) used to hear the Word of Allah [the Taurat (torah)], then they used to change it knowingly after they understood it?
(سورة البقرة, Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #75)


The respect the Prophet SAW showed the Torah.
(5) Narrated Abdullah Ibn Umar: A group of Jews came and invited the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) to Quff. So he visited them in their school. They said: AbulQasim, one of our men has committed fornication with a woman; so pronounce judgment upon them. They placed a cushion for the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) who sat on it and said: Bring the torah. It was then brought. He then withdrew the cushion from beneath him and placed the torah on it saying: I believed in thee and in Him Who revealed thee. He then said: Bring me one who is learned among you. Then a young man was brought. The transmitter then mentioned the rest of the tradition of stoning similar to the one transmitted by Malik from Nafi'(No. 4431). (Book #38, Hadith #4434)

 

[Kung Fu]

AS, I don't believe many Muslims have a problem with the Torah but rather their issues lay with the NT.

 

[AspiringSoul]

So the differences between the stories of the prophets in the Torah and in the Quran, have a reason..and i call that reason
Hikmah/wisdom

(1) Our Lord! Send amongst them a Messenger of their own (and indeed Allah answered their invocation by sending Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم), who shall recite unto them Your Verses and instruct them in the Book (this Qur'an) and Al-hikmah (full knowledge of the Islamic laws and jurisprudence or wisdom or Prophethood), and purify them. Verily! You are the All-Mighty, the All-Wise."
(سورة البقرة, Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #129)

(5) He grants hikmah to whom He pleases, and he, to whom hikmah is granted, is indeed granted abundant good. But none remember (will receive admonition) except men of understanding.
(سورة البقرة, Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #269)

(6) And He (Allah) will teach him [('Îsa (Jesus)] the Book and Al-hikmah (i.e. the Sunnah, the faultless speech of the Prophets, wisdom), (and) the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel).
(سورة آل عمران, Aal-i-Imraan, Chapter #3, Verse #48)


ie
our version
Ismael aS was tested
their version. Isaac AS was tested.

personally our version makes more sense and contains no contradiction.
ie Torah version
God gives Abraham Ismael and then he gives him isaac...and then ismael is sent away because apparently ismael was jealous of isaac. so on his way, Ismael, a 13 year old boy...was crying/thirsty and his mother picked him up and carried him.
makes sense. THEN God tells Abraham to sacrifice his 'only son whom you love' (he had 2 sons by this point) and it's isaac...

Quranic version, God gives Abraham Ismael...and when he's old enough, God tests Abraham to sacrifice this son ie his 'only son'. He's wiling..and so God gifts Abraham, a new son Isaac.

IMO clearly the Quranic version makes more sense...but I cannot criticise the torah version. I have to make an excuse for it ie that it was deliberately written this way because that's how mythos works ie you give people a story that means something to them or alternatively is a test for them. It might be hard to swallow when you read some of the things in the Torah, but you gotta understand those people lived in an entirely different context.

Btw most of these translations are the Mohsin Khan translation, why did this guy write so many damn opinions like that?
it doesn't help at all because his [opinions] are very often wrong/misleading...and the irony is in doing this he is doing the same thing the jewish scribes/rabbis used to do..
So when you read the Quran translations be wary of the hidden opinions, some online versions don't even hide the brackets so you feel you're actually reading a direct translation when you're not.

 

[AspiringSoul]

AS, I don't believe many Muslims have a problem with the Torah but rather their issues lay with the NT.

The stories of the prophets are mostly in the old testament.
For me i have no problems with the new testament, i think it's sufi mystical terminology that regular christians don't understand
there are a lot of hidden meanings in the new testament man, not just talking about the gospels but the actual writings of Paul which, personally I believe in.

https://vigilantcitizenforums.com/members/grateful-servant.223/
check my reply to his post.

 

[AspiringSoul]

According to Islam if prophet even did make a mistake they were quick to ask for forgiveness. e.g. when Adam and Eve ate the fruit and they realized what they had done, they kept asking for God's forgiveness until God forgave them and this is also what differentiates Adam from iblees/lucifer.
Both disobeyed God, but Adam immediately regretted and asked for forgiveness and mercy whereas Satan instead of asking for forgiveness, was quick to challenge God out of arrogance and jealousy.

The same event in Biblical version, correct me if i am wrong. Adam and Eve didn't ask for forgiveness hence God didn't forgive them and then sacrifice of Jesus was needed.

The 'sacrifice' of Jesus is something these christians do not seem to get either. It was never about the accountability of sin but the nature of sin ie the nafs that's in us all...and merely believing in Jesus isn't enough to kill the nafs and hence defeat death....but you have to actively 'pick up the cross and follow Jesus' as the said. That actually means living a life like the early Christians did. The way it's done is by complete submission..and it's easy for me, a sinner, to talk about this...but that was what Isa AS demanded. He didn't tolerate slackness even the slightest. If you read the things he said, he was VERY critical.
His way was a difficult way to follow but it took you to a higher place ie Ihsan.

 

[manama]

I don't think anyone has a problem with Torah's scripture itself, like you said the problem arises from interpretation and translation. Also, because a new prophet only appears if the people have gone astray again and a new scripture is only given if something went wrong with the old one. And tbh considering that the children of Israel made the lives of Prophet Aaron/Haroon and Prophet Moses/Musa a living hell, and considering how all story goes and how they put Musa a.s through more pain than what Pharoah did.
Something, somewhere did go wrong and that is why Jesus Christ was sent to the same people and a new scripture Gospel was revealed.

 

[manama]

-Do you covet [the hope, O believers], that they would believe for you while a party of them used to hear the words of Allah and then distort the Torah after they had understood it while they were knowing?

-And when they meet those who believe, they say, "We have believed"; but when they are alone with one another, they say, "Do you talk to them about what Allah has revealed to you so they can argue with you about it before your Lord?" Then will you not reason?

-But do they not know that Allah knows what they conceal and what they declare?

-And among them are unlettered ones who do not know the Scripture except in wishful thinking, but they are only assuming.

-So woe to those who write the "scripture" with their own hands, then say, "This is from Allah ," in order to exchange it for a small price. Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn.

Quran Chapter 2 verse 75 - 79

 

[AspiringSoul]

I don't think anyone has a problem with Torah's scripture itself, like you said the problem arises from interpretation and translation. Also, because a new prophet only appears if the people have gone astray again and a new scripture is only given if something went wrong with the old one. And tbh considering that the children of Israel made the lives of Prophet Aaron/Haroon and Prophet Moses/Musa a living hell, and considering how all story goes and how they put Musa a.s through more pain than what Pharoah did.
Something, somewhere did go wrong and that is why Jesus Christ was sent to the same people and a new scripture Gospel was revealed.

it was a natural step from having a religion and laws for one nation (israelites) and then passing it into gentiles.
Christianity was the middle ground between the Torah and the Quran, but the role of Isa AS is to complete these religions through the hikmah he was blessed with.

I think muslims are just as bad.
israelites/jews had prophets they killed.
look at what happened to the sahaba and the ahle-bayt at karbala. How are we any different?
wahabis would be the first to kill Jesus AS if he conversed with them. They are every bit as extreme as the sadducee's who wanted Jesus dead.

 

[Kung Fu]

The stories of the prophets are mostly in the old testament.
For me i have no problems with the new testament, i think it's sufi mystical terminology that regular christians don't understand
there are a lot of hidden meanings in the new testament man, not just talking about the gospels but the actual writings of Paul which, personally I believe in.

https://vigilantcitizenforums.com/members/grateful-servant.223/
check my reply to his post.

I can't trust the NT for it contradicts itself left and right especially the words of Paul. I don't know if that's due to tampering or not but the interpolations of the NT are just too many to count for me to put any credence in.

For the record I also don't believe the Torah we have today is the same Torah of old.

 

[AspiringSoul]

I can't trust the NT for it contradicts itself left and right especially the words of Paul. I don't know if that's due to tampering or not but the interpolations of the NT are just too many to count for me to put any credence in.

For the record I also don't believe the Torah we have today is the same Torah of old.

That's just the thing, i've read it a few times and don't find it hard to understand or see any real contradictions.

Which torah? the one that existed during the time of Prophet SAW or before it?
The only difference is in the jewish torah which follows the masoretic text ie this translation was done in between the 8th to 11th centuries AD ie after Prophet SAW.
The catholic bible is based on the latin vulgate and written in the 3rd century AD. The protestant bible is based on the Septuagint which predates even Isa AS.

 

[rainerann]

According to Islam if prophet even did make a mistake they were quick to ask for forgiveness. e.g. when Adam and Eve ate the fruit and they realized what they had done, they kept asking for God's forgiveness until God forgave them and this is also what differentiates Adam from iblees/lucifer.
Both disobeyed God, but Adam immediately regretted and asked for forgiveness and mercy whereas Satan instead of asking for forgiveness, was quick to challenge God out of arrogance and jealousy.

The same event in Biblical version, correct me if i am wrong. Adam and Eve didn't ask for forgiveness hence God didn't forgive them and then sacrifice of Jesus was needed.

In the Bible, the story of Adan and Eve is brief. They disobeyed, but there is evidence of the presence of God with them and showing grace towards them. First, He clothes them in the garden (Genesis 3:21). Then, we are told that Eve praises God for the birth of her child. "I have had a male child with the Lord’s help." (Genesis 4:1).

Then, the offering begins, which is the primary reason I would feel comfortable agreeing that God forgave them as you say. These offerings that Cain and Abel began bringing to God could be considered sin offerings or a way to ask God for forgiveness.

"In the course of time Cain presented some of the land’s produce as an offering to the Lord. 4 And Abel also presented an offering—some of the firstborn of his flock and their fat portions. The Lord had regard for Abel and his offering," Genesis 4:3-4.

This is the first mention of the offering that the law will eventually require continuing.

The reason for the early offerings is not given, but they are continued. When Noah emerges from the ark, we are told that he presented an offering. " Then Noah built an altar to the Lord. He took some of every kind of clean animal and every kind of clean bird and offered burnt offerings on the altar." (Genesis 8:20).

Abraham would also build an altar and present an offering on it often (Genesis 12:5-7; Genesis 12:8; Genesis 13:3-4; Genesis 13:3-4). It is very possible that this was a way of petitioning for forgiveness.

Therefore, according to the same theory, there would be no need for the sacrifice of Christ because of their offerings. The same conclusion could be drawn because of this too.

But, this is not why we are told that the cross was required. The cross was required because of the way eating the apple in the Garden of Eden changed us. The cross is a demonstration that is meant to change us into the people that God intended for us to be. It is meant to reverse the damage of the fall in the Garden of Eden.

It is not an action that demonstrates that God didn't forgive Adam and Eve. He could have forgiven them. We are told that David received forgiveness before the work of the cross (2 Samuel 12:13). What Jesus did goes beyond being forgiven for sin in this life. For example, how would you go about removing murder and adultery from this earth? If Adam and Eve asked for forgiveness, and were given forgiveness, why did God have to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah? Why didn't things return to the way they were?

Something changed that asking for forgiveness cannot remove. That is why the cross was required.

 

[God_Is_Formless]

If Adam and Eve asked for forgiveness, and were given forgiveness, why did God have to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah? Why didn't things return to the way they were? Something changed that asking for forgiveness cannot remove. That is why the cross was required.

Sodom and Gomorrah transgressed against all bounds to excess. They didn't even ask for forgiveness and yet persisted in their evil ways. When God Sent His Messenger to them, they didn't believe in his words either. That's why they had to be set as an example for others.

The cross does not justify anything. It is only how they believed to have killed Jesus. How weird for Christians to use that same symbol which reminds of the supposed suffering of Jesus (i say supposed because to me it's not Jesus who had been crucified). Like if you personally truly loved your son who got hanged by his enemies, would you wear a rope symbol around your neck to remind you of that for the rest of your life?

 

[Thunderian]

The cross reminds Christians of the love Christ has for us. Jesus said, Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. The cross symbolizes everything he went through on our behalf.

 

[manama]

In the Bible, the story of Adan and Eve is brief. They disobeyed, but there is evidence of the presence of God with them and showing grace towards them. First, He clothes them in the garden (Genesis 3:21). Then, we are told that Eve praises God for the birth of her child. "I have had a male child with the Lord’s help." (Genesis 4:1).

Then, the offering begins, which is the primary reason I would feel comfortable agreeing that God forgave them as you say. These offerings that Cain and Abel began bringing to God could be considered sin offerings or a way to ask God for forgiveness.

"In the course of time Cain presented some of the land’s produce as an offering to the Lord. 4 And Abel also presented an offering—some of the firstborn of his flock and their fat portions. The Lord had regard for Abel and his offering," Genesis 4:3-4.

This is the first mention of the offering that the law will eventually require continuing.

The reason for the early offerings is not given, but they are continued. When Noah emerges from the ark, we are told that he presented an offering. " Then Noah built an altar to the Lord. He took some of every kind of clean animal and every kind of clean bird and offered burnt offerings on the altar." (Genesis 8:20).

Abraham would also build an altar and present an offering on it often (Genesis 12:5-7; Genesis 12:8; Genesis 13:3-4; Genesis 13:3-4). It is very possible that this was a way of petitioning for forgiveness.

Therefore, according to the same theory, there would be no need for the sacrifice of Christ because of their offerings. The same conclusion could be drawn because of this too.

But, this is not why we are told that the cross was required. The cross was required because of the way eating the apple in the Garden of Eden changed us. The cross is a demonstration that is meant to change us into the people that God intended for us to be. It is meant to reverse the damage of the fall in the Garden of Eden.

It is not an action that demonstrates that God didn't forgive Adam and Eve. He could have forgiven them. We are told that David received forgiveness before the work of the cross (2 Samuel 12:13). What Jesus did goes beyond being forgiven for sin in this life. For example, how would you go about removing murder and adultery from this earth? If Adam and Eve asked for forgiveness, and were given forgiveness, why did God have to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah? Why didn't things return to the way they were?

Something changed that asking for forgiveness cannot remove. That is why the cross was required.

Sodom and Gomorrah were punished for their own sins, as any other sinner.
We are all sinners that is true, but God made us like that. Why would I who has never seen Adam and Eve and don't even know them be accountable for their sins?
If God did indeed forgive them then that means God forgave their sin as well and removed it. So, if that did happen then Adam and Eve were no longer sinners and thus their children didn't have to pay for that sin. That doesn't justify how a baby born will already be a sinner.
If God is the most merciful and forgiving, his forgiveness is enough for us.

The Biblical version of the story has the fruit being 'fruit of knowledge' if i am not wrong. So, why would humans getting knowledge would be a bad thing? And didn't God raise the status of humans above the angels because of knowledge? Why would wanting more knowledge which is actually a virtue, be considered a sin?

In the Islamic version of the same incident the fruit wasn't fruit of knowledge. God already gave Adam the knowledge of all things when he created him and thus asked the angels to prostrate to him which the devil disobeyed and didn't do.

Even if God hadn't forgiven Adam and Eve, the humanity would never be held accountable because children will never be held accountable. Each of Prophets had someone they had to fight against. Pharoah against Moses, Goliath against David etc and similarly Adam vs the Devil is what started this all sequence but God is all knowing so he already knew that Adam and Eve will sin. And God knew that they will ask for forgiveness so when they did, God forgave them. If the effect of a sin was that great that generations after generation someone had to die for it. A sin caused or initiated by the Devil. So, if Prophet Jesus was God and he died for the son of man doesn't that means devil won in a sense? he was able to cause the death of God?