Did sin enter the world through Adam, Satan or Yahweh?

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Don't worry about what the Jews and Christian believe/desired. What do you mean you don't believe Yahweh is real as a god? Does he exist or not?
Yahweh is real only to those who have allowed their minds to go into intellectual and moral decay.

Those fools think a genocidal and infanticidal prick of a god is somehow good.

Regards
DL
 






illuminatimess

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Nice that you have rejected the idiocy of the Trinity and the notion that people should abdicate their responsibility for their actions and jump on a scapegoat Jesus.

Being a naturalist, I see that we are all born sinners, but not in the biblical sense.

We are evolving creatures who have to both cooperate and compete a appropriate times.

When we cooperate, we see that as good as no loser is created. When we compete, we create a loser who will see his lose as evil visiting him.

All human to human evil is caused by us having to compete to show our fitness. That evil is a small part of the overall good of our continuing to not go extinct.

Regards
DL
I don’t agree with your aspects at all, but I like your thinking.

And yes, Trinity is stupid and doesn’t make any sense
 






illuminatimess

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Can you describe how the Trinity is stupid and doesn't make any sense?
Why the trinity doesn't make sense: Five reasons.

1. **Jesus was a Jew, right?** Well, Judaism at the time of Jesus, and to this day (indeed throughout history), confess belief in only one individual who is God; the one called Yahweh, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob/Israel. If Jesus was a Jew, then he too must have held this belief, right? We don't have to guess the answer; Mark 12:28-34 actually records a conversation in which Jesus explicitly agreed with a non-trinitarian, Jewish scribe on his Jewish definition of God. So, if Jesus believed in the trinity, he should have disagreed with this scribe. But he doesn't; he not only agrees with him, but compliments him on his sound reasoning, stating "you are not far from the kingdom of God"!

2. **There is not a single place in scripture where the trinity is explained.** Where is the verse, chapter or book which simply states the doctrine? If this belief is so important, shouldn't it be explained all over the place like other doctrines are, (such as 'Jesus death')? Obviously, the Bible can be used to "support" the trinity, but it can also be used to support slavery, antisemitism, flat earth theory, etc. There's been all sorts of wacky groups who've claimed that the Bible supports their pet theories. Sure, one could go through the arduous chore of compiling together a verse here, a verse there, to finally erect an impressive facade which, rather than elucidating scripture, actually obscures it. Honestly, the trinity must be read into scripture, not out from it. In fact, nobody will arrive at 'the trinity' from only reading what the Bible says, but rather will be impressed by countless "the Lord our God is *one* Lord"s. It has to be taught alongside scripture, and even then most people don't even understand it! I know this from experience with Christian friends. Not that I blame them, of course, but it is sad.

3. **Controversy**. In the New Testament, a number of historical controversies are recorded, from the speaking in tongues controversy in Corinth, to the Jerusalem council, which decided whether or not new Gentile converts needed to keep the law. However, one controversy is strikingly absent from the New Testament document; a controversy over a new definition of God. I mean, think about it. Here I am, challenging your understanding of who God is and you're probably feeling a bit uncomfortable, right? What if, as a missionary, I came to your church, and started preaching that God is only the Father, and not the father, son and HS? Wouldn't that cause controversy? Of course. People who believe one thing about God don't just change the moment they hear one new idea. What about in the first century? You've got all these Jewish communities throughout the mediterranean world who are strictly monotheistic, and these Christians come to town preaching a message about the trinity. Wouldn't that cause problems? Of course. In the entire New Testament, we find no controversy over the trinity, to such a degree, that it is never even spelled out clearly. Isn't the simplest explanation that this doctrine just wasn't around yet?

4. **The language the Bible uses to talk about God.** Pronouns can either be singular or plural. If we read a singular pronoun, like "I" or "She", we know that a singular person is in mind. But when we read a plural pronoun like "we" or "They", we know that a group of persons are being referenced. So what about God? If God is comprised of multiple persons, then of course we should find plural pronouns when God is spoken of; if God is a singular individual then we should find singular pronouns instead. Think back to texts you've read about God. Which kind of pronouns are used? Eg. Jeremiah 29:11 - "For *I* know the plans *I* have for you". It doesn't say, "For *We * know the plans *We* have for you." In both the Old and New Testaments, tens of thousands of times, when God speaks, or when people speak of God, they use singular pronouns instead of plural ones.

5. **Jesus' knowledge** If Jesus is fully God, then he must have full knowledge. What about Mark 13:32 - "But of that day or hour, no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but the Father *alone*." Was Jesus lying? If Jesus is God, then of course he knew when he planned this event. This is clear evidence that Jesus did not know everything. Are we going to believe Jesus' own words, or should be cling to our tradition, regardless of what the scriptures say?
 






Lisa

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The idea that a god would create man knowing he would sin is one of the most illogical ideas ever perpetrated. Further more if mans choices force gods hands are we not then more powerful than god ?
So let me get this straight . God curses for an infraction , but if a fellow man deceived me into sin Im to forgive him or suffer more punishment from God ? If you read the OT as a book written by Tolkien all of you would be in complete disgust of Yahweh’s behaviour.
Why is it illogical that God would create man knowing he would sin against him? I think it would be bad if God created man and left him along to his sins and didn’t care..but God didn‘t do that..he still cares about His creation and came up with a plan to save us by.

God gave free will, we aren’t his robots..He want’s us to come to Him, love Him and obey Him, and that can only happen with free will..and that was God’s choice.

God hates sin..that infraction was a sin. Sin separates you from God because God can’t have sin, He is after all holy.

I’m not sure what you’re talking about in forgiving someone who deceived you into sin. We don’t need to be deceived into sin..we are all sinners by birth. No one had to teach us this.

The Bible wasn’t written by Tolkien, but inspired by God..and God is good, He is holy..that’s a lot different then the evil being written by Tolkien..evil just to be evil.
 






Lisa

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What would be the consequences if A & E had not eaten of knowledge? Would they have remained with their yes closed and without a moral sense and the ability to reproduce?

Or do you see them as gaining reproduction knowledge in some other way?

Regards
DL
I don’t usually do hypotheticals..but I would imagine they wouldn’t have been separated from God and would have still walked with Him and sin wouldn’t have entered the world...we could all be in the garden.

I think their eyes would have been closed to evil and that would have been a good thing. Knowing good and evil but being only attracted to evil is a hard road to live.

Did you have to be taught how to reproduce?
 






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I don’t usually do hypotheticals..but I would imagine they wouldn’t have been separated from God and would have still walked with Him and sin wouldn’t have entered the world...we could all be in the garden.

I think their eyes would have been closed to evil and that would have been a good thing. Knowing good and evil but being only attracted to evil is a hard road to live.

Did you have to be taught how to reproduce?
We could not all be in the garden because A & E would have never had their eyes opened or gained the knowledge of reproduction.

Reproduction has good and evil sides and A & E were denied the knowledge of those two sides.

Right?

Regards
DL
 






Lisa

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To your first.
Your bible says god created good, not perfect, so stop adding your interpretation, which s what your own bible tells you to do.

To your second.
Of course god knew Adam would choose knowledge over ignorance. Don't you?

God knew because he knew he was going to put Satan or the talking serpent right there with Eve to insure she ate.
You are rejecting that the sin was a happy fault and necessary to god's plan, while showing how necessary it was as god had Jesus waiting in the wings. Adam would have derailed Yahweh's plan, according to your own words.

So would you not follow Adam's lead or would you not eat of knowledge and derail Yahweh's plan?

To your third.
Job 2;3 has god admitting to being a sinner and doing evil without a cause.
There are many biblical references to Yahweh denying us our free will so your comment is from ignorance and goes against the scriptures. You are not even a 1/4 Christian when you reject accepted and even logical Christian doctrine.

To your last. It is scripture that god cannot die and for you to take substitutional punishment to abdicate your responsibility for your sins is quite immoral and again goes against what Jesus taught, which was that your sins are your responsibility.

Satan has you too well in hand for you to care about that. You are going to hell.

Regards
DL
Can God create imperfect? With sin in the world..it is imperfect..but I think good means that the garden was perfect.

Adam chose sin over God. He chose to believe evil over believing good and God. His eyes weren’t opened to knowledge but to evil...he already knew good..He knew God.

She didn’t have to believe the serpent over God, but she wanted the fruit as much as the serpent wanted her to eat and blow it.

Sin wasn’t necessary to God’s plan..but it was necessary for man to have free will to disobey God or not...otherwise man couldn’t choose to love God..he’d be an obedient robot..no one wants an obedient robot..we all want to be loved for us.

We all have the choice to live God’s way..we can be obedient to the law..if you even get one piece wrong you fail the whole law..so yes, I failed the whole law in my life..its only belief in Jesus that has saved me.

God has always existed and wasn’t created, yep, but Jesus was born a man in order to fulfill the law and become the last and only sacrifice for sins so we can be saved..that’s mercy on God’s part..did He even have to do that? Yet, it is said He did it out of love for us..even though we are the sinners, while we were yet sinners Christ died for us. That’s profound and moving.

I don’t believe I am going to hell..but I also need to stay in the faith.
 






elsbet

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3. **Controversy**...
However, one controversy is strikingly absent from the New Testament document; a controversy over a new definition of God. I mean, think about it. Here I am, challenging your understanding of who God is and you're probably feeling a bit uncomfortable, right? What if, as a missionary, I came to your church, and started preaching that God is only the Father, and not the father, son and HS? Wouldn't that cause controversy? Of course. People who believe one thing about God don't just change the moment they hear one new idea. What about in the first century? You've got all these Jewish communities throughout the mediterranean world who are strictly monotheistic, and these Christians come to town preaching a message about the trinity. Wouldn't that cause problems? Of course. In the entire New Testament, we find no controversy over the trinity, to such a degree, that it is never even spelled out clearly. Isn't the simplest explanation that this doctrine just wasn't around yet?
No controversy... did you miss the part where Jesus was crucified?

lol @ new idea :rolleyes:
 






A Freeman

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So you think Satan is the creator of the lie concept, while ignoring that scriptures say that all concepts were created by god.
King of kings' Bible - John 8:34-35 (KJV - John 8:43-45)
8:34 Why do ye not understand my speech? [even] because ye cannot hear my Word.
8:35 Ye are of [YOUR] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the Truth, because there is no Truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father (inventor) of it.
8:36 And because I tell [you] the Truth, ye believe me not.


What else was not created by god?
If by "god" you mean Father (the "I AM"), then: ignorance/arrogance/stupidity, which came with the lies, from the inventor of lies (Lucifer/Satan/Iblis, with his MASSIVE ego).

Who else is god's co-creator?
Our Loving Father created us all and gave each and every one of us the power of creation, along with free-will.

Even in our extremely limited human form, here in this maximum security prison reform school, we've been given the power to create things, at least to change the forms of energy and matter into other energies or matter. In our free-state, we have powers of creation that are only surpassed by Father Himself (THE CREATOR).

Psalm 82:6 I have said, Ye [are] gods; and all of you (your spirit-Beings) [are] children of the Most High.
 






A Freeman

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What would be the consequences if A & E had not eaten of knowledge? Would they have remained with their yes closed and without a moral sense and the ability to reproduce?

Or do you see them as gaining reproduction knowledge in some other way?
In the Garden of Eden, Adam and Eve KNEW they were spiritual-Beings CLOTHED in human bodies, and were walking WITH God, i.e. with the WISDOM (true knowledge) of GOOD. God IS Good, despite your overtly satanic efforts to con people into believing otherwise. Had they continued in that manner, they would have trained the spirit-Beings placed inside of their human children to do the same, and would have left Earth long ago, returning to our REAL home and our REAL family in Heaven.

Instead, they listened to Lucifer/Satan/Iblis/the devil AGAIN, and decided to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good AND evil, thereby becoming confused between the two, just as you undoubtedly are. In their confusion, they began to see things from a human perspective, through their human eyes, at which point they lost the wisdom of KNOWING that they were spiritual-Beings, and believed Satan's LIE that they were "only humans after all". That's when and why they began thinking they were naked, when it was really their bodies that were naked.

As long as people continue to believe they're only human, they will NEVER regain their divinity and will very soon find themselves in The Fire, along with Satan. We've had 6000 years to come to our senses. Time is almost up.
 






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Can God create imperfect? With sin in the world..it is imperfect..but I think good means that the garden was perfect.
With a perfect Satan/talking serpent right there waiting to tempt Eve. Ok. Perfect. A perfect set up for the failure of humankind in Eden.

Adam chose sin over God. He chose to believe evil over believing good and God. His eyes weren’t opened to knowledge but to evil...he already knew good..He knew God.
The script is clear that all good and all evil was in the tree so Adam could not know the good of a thing woithout knowing the evil of the thing as well. You are trying to separate Yin from Yang. A stupid effort.

What is wrong with Adam choosing sin over god, given that to him, not knowing good from evil, would not see god as better than sin.

she wanted the fruit
What fruit?

Is knowledge not synonymous with education. Did you not want education or think it evil when you were young?

Sin wasn’t necessary to God’s plan..but it was necessary for man to have free will
So God's plan did not include man having a free will.

You approve of that do you?

Regards
DL
 






floss

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Why the trinity doesn't make sense: Five reasons.

1. **Jesus was a Jew, right?** Well, Judaism at the time of Jesus, and to this day (indeed throughout history), confess belief in only one individual who is God; the one called Yahweh, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob/Israel. If Jesus was a Jew, then he too must have held this belief, right? We don't have to guess the answer; Mark 12:28-34 actually records a conversation in which Jesus explicitly agreed with a non-trinitarian, Jewish scribe on his Jewish definition of God. So, if Jesus believed in the trinity, he should have disagreed with this scribe. But he doesn't; he not only agrees with him, but compliments him on his sound reasoning, stating "you are not far from the kingdom of God"!

2. **There is not a single place in scripture where the trinity is explained.** Where is the verse, chapter or book which simply states the doctrine? If this belief is so important, shouldn't it be explained all over the place like other doctrines are, (such as 'Jesus death')? Obviously, the Bible can be used to "support" the trinity, but it can also be used to support slavery, antisemitism, flat earth theory, etc. There's been all sorts of wacky groups who've claimed that the Bible supports their pet theories. Sure, one could go through the arduous chore of compiling together a verse here, a verse there, to finally erect an impressive facade which, rather than elucidating scripture, actually obscures it. Honestly, the trinity must be read into scripture, not out from it. In fact, nobody will arrive at 'the trinity' from only reading what the Bible says, but rather will be impressed by countless "the Lord our God is *one* Lord"s. It has to be taught alongside scripture, and even then most people don't even understand it! I know this from experience with Christian friends. Not that I blame them, of course, but it is sad.

3. **Controversy**. In the New Testament, a number of historical controversies are recorded, from the speaking in tongues controversy in Corinth, to the Jerusalem council, which decided whether or not new Gentile converts needed to keep the law. However, one controversy is strikingly absent from the New Testament document; a controversy over a new definition of God. I mean, think about it. Here I am, challenging your understanding of who God is and you're probably feeling a bit uncomfortable, right? What if, as a missionary, I came to your church, and started preaching that God is only the Father, and not the father, son and HS? Wouldn't that cause controversy? Of course. People who believe one thing about God don't just change the moment they hear one new idea. What about in the first century? You've got all these Jewish communities throughout the mediterranean world who are strictly monotheistic, and these Christians come to town preaching a message about the trinity. Wouldn't that cause problems? Of course. In the entire New Testament, we find no controversy over the trinity, to such a degree, that it is never even spelled out clearly. Isn't the simplest explanation that this doctrine just wasn't around yet?

4. **The language the Bible uses to talk about God.** Pronouns can either be singular or plural. If we read a singular pronoun, like "I" or "She", we know that a singular person is in mind. But when we read a plural pronoun like "we" or "They", we know that a group of persons are being referenced. So what about God? If God is comprised of multiple persons, then of course we should find plural pronouns when God is spoken of; if God is a singular individual then we should find singular pronouns instead. Think back to texts you've read about God. Which kind of pronouns are used? Eg. Jeremiah 29:11 - "For *I* know the plans *I* have for you". It doesn't say, "For *We * know the plans *We* have for you." In both the Old and New Testaments, tens of thousands of times, when God speaks, or when people speak of God, they use singular pronouns instead of plural ones.

5. **Jesus' knowledge** If Jesus is fully God, then he must have full knowledge. What about Mark 13:32 - "But of that day or hour, no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but the Father *alone*." Was Jesus lying? If Jesus is God, then of course he knew when he planned this event. This is clear evidence that Jesus did not know everything. Are we going to believe Jesus' own words, or should be cling to our tradition, regardless of what the scriptures say?
Appreciate you taking your time to explain why you believe the Trinity is confusing. Usually, most just say it doesn't logically add up, 1+1+1=3 not 1. I agreed from the logical stand point, it doesn't make sense to our carnal mind. However, we cannot use our carnal reasoning to fully understand an ETERNAL BEING. You have to consider beyond your carnal thinking with spiritual concept that might be hard to accept. I'm in no way an expert, just trying to understand other's perspective on why the Trinity is such a confusing concept. I surely cannot answer all your question because I do not have all the answer regarding an ETERNAL BEING. If what I say doesn't satisfy you, I understand as well.

I think the biggest issues people cannot comprehend the Trinity is because of the word ONE. If you're applying a numerical value of 1 to the word ONE, then the Trinity will not make sense. But if you think of it as a UNIT, then it will totally make sense. Here's an example why the word ONE doesn't equal the numerical value of 1.

John 10:30 King James Version (KJV)
30 I and my Father are one.

You see here, Jesus claimed He and the Father are one. It does not make sense to apply a numerical value of 1 here as there are clearly two pronouns. 1+1=2 not 1

Think of a FAMILY unit. You've got Father, Mother, Brothers, Sisters. There can be several members within ONE unit of a FAMILY. That's the same way with the Trinity. There are 3 distinguishable members of ONE GOD (family).

How can the Trinity be monotheism if it existed in 3 person? Think monotheism as it's the only ABSOLUTE TRUTH, ONE TRUE FAITH. The One and Only Truth. Everything else is false. We know satan is the god of this world, so there are many false gods. Conclusion:

There is ONE AND ONLY TRUE GOD(monotheism) existed in a Triune form. Every other gods are false (were actually created by the Triune God).

4. **The language the Bible uses to talk about God.** Pronouns can either be singular or plural. If we read a singular pronoun, like "I" or "She", we know that a singular person is in mind. But when we read a plural pronoun like "we" or "They", we know that a group of persons are being referenced. So what about God? If God is comprised of multiple persons, then of course we should find plural pronouns when God is spoken of; if God is a singular individual then we should find singular pronouns instead. Think back to texts you've read about God. Which kind of pronouns are used? Eg. Jeremiah 29:11 - "For *I* know the plans *I* have for you". It doesn't say, "For *We * know the plans *We* have for you." In both the Old and New Testaments, tens of thousands of times, when God speaks, or when people speak of God, they use singular pronouns instead of plural ones.
You can definitely find the plurality of God in GENESIS
Genesis 1:26 King James Version (KJV)
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Genesis 3:22 King James Version (KJV)
22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Here you can see there are 3 HOLY HOLY HOLY
Isaiah 6:3 King James Version (KJV)
3 And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.

There are more example of the Trinity but I hope you take time to seek God for answers to the real truth. Simply with a heart of a child, ask the Holy Spirit to guide you to the truth. Just because the Bible doesn't explicitly say "God existed in 3 form" does not mean he's not. In the end, everyone will know the mystery of God but it will be too late. Hope you find the truth in your journey!

Revelation 10:7 King James Version (KJV)
7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
 






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Lisa

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With a perfect Satan/talking serpent right there waiting to tempt Eve. Ok. Perfect. A perfect set up for the failure of humankind in Eden.
God does say He tests our faith...


The script is clear that all good and all evil was in the tree so Adam could not know the good of a thing woithout knowing the evil of the thing as well. You are trying to separate Yin from Yang. A stupid effort.

What is wrong with Adam choosing sin over god, given that to him, not knowing good from evil, would not see god as better than sin.
He was the pure human that people have been trying to say babies are born as. They didn’t even know they were naked. Doesn’t seem to have hurt them any, after all they talked with God and He walked in the Garden with them.

Adam knew God, talked with Him and walked with Him...they had a relationship but after eating the fruit the relationship was severed due to the sin of disobedience. That wasn’t better and God did warn him not to eat from the tree or there would be severe consequences.

What fruit?

Is knowledge not synonymous with education. Did you not want education or think it evil when you were young?
The fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. They wanted to be like God..not have knowledge, that’s the argument that won Eve over, you will be like God.


So God's plan did not include man having a free will.

You approve of that do you?
Yes the plan included man having free will to love and obey God or not.
 






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God does say He tests our faith...



He was the pure human that people have been trying to say babies are born as. They didn’t even know they were naked. Doesn’t seem to have hurt them any, after all they talked with God and He walked in the Garden with them.

Adam knew God, talked with Him and walked with Him...they had a relationship but after eating the fruit the relationship was severed due to the sin of disobedience. That wasn’t better and God did warn him not to eat from the tree or there would be severe consequences.


The fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. They wanted to be like God..not have knowledge, that’s the argument that won Eve over, you will be like God.



Yes the plan included man having free will to love and obey God or not.
You have ended in the idol worship of a genocidal prick. and all you have given here is your usual garbage apologetics.

Regards
DL
 






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And you’ve responded with your usual insults..
You want more than that, earn it by not being so stupid and actually doing some apologetics.

I do not have time for stupid people, especially those who adore a genocidal prick of a god and can't explain why.

Regards
DL
 






Lisa

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You want more than that, earn it by not being so stupid and actually doing some apologetics.

I do not have time for stupid people, especially those who adore a genocidal prick of a god and can't explain why.

Regards
DL
So since you have nothing to argue you resort to insults? Ok.
 






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