Did Jesus Exist? All Scholars Agree He “Certainly” Existed

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Who gave you the right to accuse me, brother? I don't remember putting my words in your mouth, so why are you accusing me like that, brother?
It's not an accusation, it's an observation. I'm sure it's not your intent to do so, but it's at least the intent of the spirit you possess. For the explanation, see my previous post.

I will never accept Jesus as being someone who's half-human, half-God
Jesus being half-man-half-god is not a Christian doctrine.

Here, let me give you an example right now; in the Qur'an, it is picture clear that God has no begotten son, no partner, no father, no parents, He wasn't born, He wasn't created, He's all by himself, and then I say: "Okay, this all sounds nice and mysterious, but maybe there was a time when God had a partner." etc.
Do you see how dumb this sounds? Why should I question Him when it's CLEARLY written in the book that He has no creator, that WE were created to worship God? Do you understand where I'm going with this?
This isn't a Christian doctrine either. The Father and the Son are one God, not God + partner. There's no Christian doctrine that uses the word partner to describe the persons of the Trinity. That was an Islamic invention.

The Father (who is God) and the Son (who is God) are co-eternal, meaning there is no time when the Father wasn't a Father and no time when the Son was not the Son.

If Jesus said that no one is greater than his FATHER, then how do you expect me to believe that he's God?
Because Jesus has a human nature next to His divine nature, while Father is purely divine. The person I'm communicating with right now (you) is also greater than what I'm perceiving of him, here on this forum.

If Jesus asked God why he has forsaken him, then how do you expect me to believe that he's God after asking him such a question?
This is for later.

Fair enough. Why do you feel the need to put Jesus as your avatar, when the Bible tells you to not use idols, graven images or icons, let alone worship them?

Here's a serious question for you, idolatry is forbidden in Christianity, any kind of religious image, images of any prophets, images of God and similar, then why are there religious statues, and images in almost every Church in the world? Can anyone explain this?
Cause I follow the Gospel. Those prohibitions are from the Torah.
 

AdjeYen

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Cause I follow the Gospel. Those prohibitions are from the Torah.
Are you trolling me right now, brother? How can you follow the Gospel when it doesn't exist in the first place? The original manuscripts no longer exist. What is left are copies of copies of copies. Hell, even those copies of copies appear to contain many errors.
So how can you say you follow the Gospel when it doesn't even exist? Unless I'm missing something here, then you are free to enlighten me.

Because Jesus has a human nature next to His divine nature, while Father is purely divine. The person I'm communicating with right now (you) is also greater than what I'm perceiving of him, here on this forum.
How does that make him the son of God if he has his "divine nature?" Who gave him this "divine nature" in the first place, then, and how would you define a "divine nature" in your very own opinion? Would you say you have a divine nature? I mean, you have a soul in a human body. I'm curious to know.

What about others before him who spread the word of God, would you say they had a divine nature as well? Didn't God speak through them as well? So we can say that Moses was the son of God. We can say Lot was the son of God. We can say that Solomon was the son of God etc.
 
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Maldarker

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@AdjeYen

Relax a little, Rambo. Have a cup of coffee and a normal conversation. Would you talk with someone like that in real life, too?
What, you just get overly sensitive when someone doesn't agree with your opinion and thoughts? That's wrong thinking.
If you say you love oranges, but I dislike oranges, are you going to get sensitive about it? There's no need to be overly sensitive like that, mate. I'm not your enemy.

Well your not my enemy nor are you my friend so lets start there. Nope not sensitive not sure where your coming from? Your orange statement is two edged....works both ways....not

I'm not attacking you either. All I said is that you're coming across as an unlikable person because of your accusations. If you feel that's me attacking you, then that's your problem. But I will still apologize to you if you feel attacked by me.
However, I never said a single bad word about you, I never insulted you, so you should put your pride to the side a little and take it easy, bro.

What accusations? lets see if your over sensitive to what i said or not show please... (seems same thing but other way around lol)

(islam doesn't for me think its a facade made up by a mad man listening to demonic entities ) <--- This is what I've been talking about. It's well-proven that many Christians (see how I have put many instead of putting everyone in the basket?) get mad, and rageful whenever they disagree with the "trinity doctrine." That's when you people show your true face and intentions.

Well seems to point to a mad man pedo in a cave gave you from again an angel that we are warned about as followers of CHRIST to not listen to but this guy does and where not to call it out? K... Prove that hes not. Otherwise....no validity for me to even listen to it.
 
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Are you trolling me right now, brother? How can you follow the Gospel when it doesn't exist in the first place? The original manuscripts no longer exist. What is left are copies of copies of copies. Hell, even those copies of copies appear to contain many errors.
So how can you say you follow the Gospel when it doesn't even exist? Unless I'm missing something here, then you are free to enlighten me.
The Gospel refers to the 'good news' given to us by Jesus Christ. (Gospel = gōd (good) + spel (news / story) / Greek: evangelion).

What do you mean with "the Gospel doesn't exist"? Do you mean the original manuscripts? The Gospel is what Jesus Christ revealed and what His apostles brought to all nations. It doesn't have to be written down in order to be the Word of God.
 

AdjeYen

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The Gospel refers to the 'good news' given to us by Jesus Christ. (Gospel = gōd (good) + spel (news / story) / Greek: evangelion).

What do you mean with "the Gospel doesn't exist"? Do you mean the original manuscripts? The Gospel is what Jesus Christ revealed and what His apostles brought to all nations. It doesn't have to be written down in order to be the Word of God.
I know what the gospel means, brother, but thanks for the information. I appreciate it.
Yep, I meant the original manuscripts. They don't exist today. We don't have them anymore, so how can you follow something when the original manuscripts are missing? Again, unless I am deeply mistaken here, I welcome anyone to correct me with proof. No cherry-picking verses etc.
As far as my knowledge goes, it's not even clear what “the original” even means. There are no biblical manuscripts that are old enough to qualify as candidates.

It doesn't have to be written down in order to be the Word of God.
How would you ever know about God if it doesn't have to be written down? How would you know how to pray to Him, how to ask for forgiveness, how to repent, how to be moral, how to do this, do that, how to become a better human being, a better believer etc.

Then you're blindly following something without any proof. Didn't Jesus spread the word of God? His gospel? I don't think Jesus kept his faith to himself and preached to God all day at home, he was spreading it.
But what I'm trying to say here is that we don't have verses, letters, parchment, whatever you call them, written by the original authors.

How can we know "the word of God" if we have no proof? Do you understand where I'm going with this?
Imagine someone or something is building a massive space shuttle and leaving it on Earth without any instructions on how to start the engine and fly into space whatsoever, do you think that makes sense?
We cannot follow "something" without instructions. Believing in "God" without any instructions makes zero sense.
 

AdjeYen

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@AdjeYen

Relax a little, Rambo. Have a cup of coffee and a normal conversation. Would you talk with someone like that in real life, too?
What, you just get overly sensitive when someone doesn't agree with your opinion and thoughts? That's wrong thinking.
If you say you love oranges, but I dislike oranges, are you going to get sensitive about it? There's no need to be overly sensitive like that, mate. I'm not your enemy.

Well your not my enemy nor are you my friend so lets start there. Nope not sensitive not sure where your coming from? Your orange statement is two edged....works both ways....not

I'm not attacking you either. All I said is that you're coming across as an unlikable person because of your accusations. If you feel that's me attacking you, then that's your problem. But I will still apologize to you if you feel attacked by me.
However, I never said a single bad word about you, I never insulted you, so you should put your pride to the side a little and take it easy, bro.

What accusations? lets see if your over sensitive to what i said or not show please... (seems same thing but other way around lol)

(islam doesn't for me think its a facade made up by a mad man listening to demonic entities ) <--- This is what I've been talking about. It's well-proven that many Christians (see how I have put many instead of putting everyone in the basket?) get mad, and rageful whenever they disagree with the "trinity doctrine." That's when you people show your true face and intentions.

Well seems to point to a mad man pedo in a cave gave you from again an angel that we are warned about as followers of CHRIST to not listen to but this guy does and where not to call it out? K... Prove that hes not. Otherwise....no validity for me to even listen to it.
Is that right, mate? But you do have the courage, you do feel manly enough to describe me as a hypocrite and insult my religion, so that is okay in your eyes, that is completely normal and acceptable to you? Come on, you behave like a 10-year-old right now. What world do you live in?

You're not even man enough to have a normal discussion with someone on the internet without pointing out your fingers and starting insults like it's nobody's business because you have zero knowledge about things you just mocked here.
You just cannot have a normal discussion with me without insulting my religion. There is a big difference between "not liking something" or "not feeling it" and "completely insulting someone's beliefs." Two different things. What you're doing here is insulting me and coming across as an extremist. Just notice how I have never said anything bad about your religion, never insulted your religion, just me and not believing in the trinity doctrine is exactly what stirred up your ego and pride.

You have no knowledge, no proof that the prophet Muhammad was a madman, especially a p***phile.
I can answer your questions about that "mad man and pedo in a cave" you just described right away. I know why you said that he's a madman or a p***phile, and I'll answer your questions right away, but I'm 10000% sure, I'd put my right hand in the fire you would still call him disgusting names.

You'd still mock and insult him, no matter what proof anyone would give/show to you, and you won't even care about taking a few moments, a little time to think about what others just said and the proof they presented to you.

As I said, I am familiar with people or "extreme Christians" like you. You're nothing special, but at the end of the day, no one is.
Kudos to the real Christians who respect their neighbour and other religions without insulting them, but want to understand their culture, and different beliefs because they are curious people and want to learn something new.

You don't want to learn anything new. I bet you're one of those people who believe everything the Media is telling them. I wouldn't be surprised if you have heard about Islam or the prophet Muhammad being a madman or a p***phile somewhere on the media or watching a documentary that was made in the USA about Islam and similar.
 

JoChris

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Why do you and other anti-Trinitarians feel the need to bring down God to the level of humans?
A follower is only as informed as their leader/s.
@AdjeYen

Relax a little, Rambo. Have a cup of coffee and a normal conversation. Would you talk with someone like that in real life, too?
What, you just get overly sensitive when someone doesn't agree with your opinion and thoughts? That's wrong thinking.
If you say you love oranges, but I dislike oranges, are you going to get sensitive about it? There's no need to be overly sensitive like that, mate. I'm not your enemy.

Well your not my enemy nor are you my friend so lets start there. Nope not sensitive not sure where your coming from? Your orange statement is two edged....works both ways....not

I'm not attacking you either. All I said is that you're coming across as an unlikable person because of your accusations. If you feel that's me attacking you, then that's your problem. But I will still apologize to you if you feel attacked by me.
However, I never said a single bad word about you, I never insulted you, so you should put your pride to the side a little and take it easy, bro.

What accusations? lets see if your over sensitive to what i said or not show please... (seems same thing but other way around lol)

(islam doesn't for me think its a facade made up by a mad man listening to demonic entities ) <--- This is what I've been talking about. It's well-proven that many Christians (see how I have put many instead of putting everyone in the basket?) get mad, and rageful whenever they disagree with the "trinity doctrine." That's when you people show your true face and intentions.

Well seems to point to a mad man pedo in a cave gave you from again an angel that we are warned about as followers of CHRIST to not listen to but this guy does and where not to call it out? K... Prove that hes not. Otherwise....no validity for me to even listen to it.
In the past I spent time attempting to discuss Islam with Muslims here. They are at best ignorant of what their religious texts say. Laughing symbols and personal insults is the best they offer when their own hadiths (that abrogate the Quran) are mentioned. After I discovered the "best" apologist they had here was in fact only an expert in the cut-and-paste technique WITHOUT giving credit to the author - a FAIL grade automatically in real life - I went elsewhere. At least on YouTube they are better informed, have a 200 character limit in live chat.

If you have more patience than me to interact with them on VC forum, I have an important tip - don't waste time defending Christianity, they are determined to reject it. It is the foundation of their faith, to follow the false teachings of an anti-christ.
1. Look up the actual Hadiths and make them deny their own religion to themselves and readers here. Maybe it will wake up the more honest readers, seeing how bizarre and immoral some of their stories are and how they are lied to by their so-called teachers.
"... But after a few days Waraqa died and the Divine Inspiration was also paused for a while and the Prophet became so sad as we have heard that he intended several times to throw himself from the tops of high mountains and every time he went up the top of a mountain in order to throw himself down, Gabriel would appear before him and say, "O Muhammad! You are indeed Allah's Apostle in truth" whereupon his heart would become quiet and he would calm down and would return home. And whenever the period of the coming of the inspiration used to become long, he would do as before, but when he used to reach the top of a mountain, Gabriel would appear before him and say to him what he had said before. (Ibn 'Abbas said regarding the meaning of: 'He it is that Cleaves the daybreak (from the darkness)' (6.96) that Al-Asbah. means the light of the sun during the day and the light of the moon at night)".

2. To see what they hide, watch YouTube channels which directly show what Islam managed to hide before the Internet. If you want further details, let me know.
 
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Maldarker

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Is that right, mate? But you do have the courage, you do feel manly enough to describe me as a hypocrite and insult my religion, so that is okay in your eyes, that is completely normal and acceptable to you? Come on, you behave like a 10-year-old right now. What world do you live in?

You're not even man enough to have a normal discussion with someone on the internet without pointing out your fingers and starting insults like it's nobody's business because you have zero knowledge about things you just mocked here.
You just cannot have a normal discussion with me without insulting my religion. There is a big difference between "not liking something" or "not feeling it" and "completely insulting someone's beliefs." Two different things. What you're doing here is insulting me and coming across as an extremist. Just notice how I have never said anything bad about your religion, never insulted your religion, just me and not believing in the trinity doctrine is exactly what stirred up your ego and pride.

You have no knowledge, no proof that the prophet Muhammad was a madman, especially a p***phile.
I can answer your questions about that "mad man and pedo in a cave" you just described right away. I know why you said that he's a madman or a p***phile, and I'll answer your questions right away, but I'm 10000% sure, I'd put my right hand in the fire you would still call him disgusting names.

You'd still mock and insult him, no matter what proof anyone would give/show to you, and you won't even care about taking a few moments, a little time to think about what others just said and the proof they presented to you.

As I said, I am familiar with people or "extreme Christians" like you. You're nothing special, but at the end of the day, no one is.
Kudos to the real Christians who respect their neighbour and other religions without insulting them, but want to understand their culture, and different beliefs because they are curious people and want to learn something new.

You don't want to learn anything new. I bet you're one of those people who believe everything the Media is telling them. I wouldn't be surprised if you have heard about Islam or the prophet Muhammad being a madman or a p***phile somewhere on the media or watching a documentary that was made in the USA about Islam and similar.
Hi DAZE didn't realize you where using another handle....funny if you would have looked back at post #67 of this thread i was the one defending your faith...but never got the same from your side so....i don't have to hold my tongue anymore....

BTW everything you said can also be said about you bro so when pointing remember more fingers are pointing back at you so WTF ever as for you and your false prophet go blow sand i am done with you.

You have said and you have done and you have like how muslims always go innocent when confronted lol like doves when they are serpents yup no more mercy wanted to learn wanted to understand but i get you i get daze if that is the full representation of your group no thanks
 

AdjeYen

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Hi DAZE didn't realize you where using another handle....funny if you would have looked back at post #67 of this thread i was the one defending your faith...but never got the same from your side so....i don't have to hold my tongue anymore....

BTW everything you said can also be said about you bro so when pointing remember more fingers are pointing back at you so WTF ever as for you and your false prophet go blow sand i am done with you.

You have said and you have done and you have like how muslims always go innocent when confronted lol like doves when they are serpents yup no more mercy wanted to learn wanted to understand but i get you i get daze if that is the full representation of your group no thanks
I'm not Daze, our writing isn't the same, but nice try, bro.
You cannot say the same about me because I never said anything bad about you or your religion whatsoever.
So, our situation isn't even remotely the same. You did the insulting part here, not me. You got all psyched up as soon as I said that the trinity doesn't make sense.

Your "so-called trinity" is mentioned only once in your bible. The father, the son and the holy spirit. If your trinity was so important to Mankind, then it would be written all over your bible, just as "God is the only creator and only He should be worshipped" written all over the Qur'an.
Jesus didn't preach the trinity to his people, he was spreading the word of God. That's a well-known fact.

That is the entire point I was trying to make here, but no, your ego didn't allow you to behave like a nice guy and pay attention to my messages so you had to insult me and my entire religion. Come on, bro, haha.
I mean, it's cool, man, if that makes you feel happier, I'm not upset with you. We're strangers, but I'm telling you, if you want a normal conversation about these things, I'm all game, but you can 100% do way better than that, without the insulting part.


I can 100% guarantee you that I'm not playing innocent here whatsoever.
You said that you were defending my faith at the post #67, dude, I don't read everything. I don't have time to read everything on here. BUT if you did that, kudos to you, big respect, but you can't just say that you "defended my religion" and then hours or days later, you quote my post and insult me and my religion.
Come on, bro, haha. It just feels wrong and dumb.

How about a handshake? We good?
 

AdjeYen

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A follower is only as informed as their leader/s.

In the past I spent time attempting to discuss Islam with Muslims here. They are at best ignorant of what their religious texts say. Laughing symbols and personal insults is the best they offer when their own hadiths (that abrogate the Quran) are mentioned. After I discovered the "best" apologist they had here was in fact only an expert in the cut-and-paste technique WITHOUT giving credit to the author - a FAIL grade automatically in real life - I went elsewhere. At least on YouTube they are better informed, have a 200 character limit in live chat.

If you have more patience than me to interact with them on VC forum, I have an important tip - don't waste time defending Christianity, they are determined to reject it. It is the foundation of their faith, to follow the false teachings of an anti-christ.
1. Look up the actual Hadiths and make them deny their own religion to themselves and readers here. Maybe it will wake up the more honest readers, seeing how bizarre and immoral some of their stories are and how they are lied to by their so-called teachers.
"... But after a few days Waraqa died and the Divine Inspiration was also paused for a while and the Prophet became so sad as we have heard that he intended several times to throw himself from the tops of high mountains and every time he went up the top of a mountain in order to throw himself down, Gabriel would appear before him and say, "O Muhammad! You are indeed Allah's Apostle in truth" whereupon his heart would become quiet and he would calm down and would return home. And whenever the period of the coming of the inspiration used to become long, he would do as before, but when he used to reach the top of a mountain, Gabriel would appear before him and say to him what he had said before. (Ibn 'Abbas said regarding the meaning of: 'He it is that Cleaves the daybreak (from the darkness)' (6.96) that Al-Asbah. means the light of the sun during the day and the light of the moon at night)".

2. To see what they hide, watch YouTube channels which directly show what Islam managed to hide before the Internet. If you want further details, let me know.
I don't reject Christianity. I reject the trinity doctrine. I love Jesus, but of course, you guys will say: "No, no, you don't love Jesus. Stop lying. If you love Jesus, you'd accept the trinity." Well, sorry but I don't.

I'm not the only Muslim who rejects the trinity doctrine. You have millions of Christians who do not believe in the trinity doctrine either. What would you call them? False followers or going astray kind of people?
I think you are speaking of someone else here, my friend because I have never insulted anyone's religion here.
Now, if you want to talk about Islam with Muslim people, then this isn't the right place, my friend. This isn't an Islamic site. There are plenty of Islamic forums for you, and hopefully, some of them may answer your questions and what you're searching for.
However, I'm not a Muslim scholar, not an Alim, so you should find your answers elsewhere. Hopefully, of course.
 
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How does that make him the son of God if he has his "divine nature?" Who gave him this "divine nature" in the first place, then, and how would you define a "divine nature" in your very own opinion? Would you say you have a divine nature? I mean, you have a soul in a human body. I'm curious to know.

What about others before him who spread the word of God, would you say they had a divine nature as well? Didn't God speak through them as well? So we can say that Moses was the son of God. We can say Lot was the son of God. We can say that Solomon was the son of God etc.
We all have a soul (and a spirit), I agree. But Jesus had an added nature which was God. With divine is meant 'of God', meaning the divine nature of Christ (from (Gr.) Chrestos = the Good) is of the same essence as that of God or the Father.

ὅτι ἐν αὐτῷ κατοικεῖ πᾶν τὸ πλήρωμα τῆς θεότητος σωματικῶς,
For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form (Col 2:9)

Therefore, no. No prophet before Jesus Christ is similar or had God's fullness (Gr: pleroma) dwelling within. But that doesn't mean they weren't guided by the Holy Spirit (which can literally be interpreted as 'the Good Thought').
 

A Freeman

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I'm not bringing down God to the level of humans. You're doing that.

I have no problem admitting the Trinity is divine mystery and that we, as lower beings, are simply limited to fully comprehend it.
You, on the other hand, are like a cube telling other cubes that the god of cubes can't be 8 cubes in one (ie. a hypercube or tesseract). You limit God by not humbling yourself to the possibility that God could exist as more persons than a human. You're bringing God down to our dimension, the level of humans.

In the words of CS Lewis:

You know that in space you can move in three ways – to left or right, backwards or forwards, up or down. Every direction is either one of these three or a compromise between them. They are called the three Dimensions. Now notice this. If you are using only one dimension, you could draw only a straight line. If you are using two, you could draw a figure: say, a square. And a square is made up of four straight lines. Now a step further. If you have three dimensions, you can then build what we call a solid body: say, a cube – a thing like a dice or a lump of sugar. And a cube is made up of six squares.
Do you see the point? A world of one dimension would be a straight line. In a two-dimensional world, you still get straight lines, but many lines make one figure. In a three-dimensional world, you still get figures but many figures make one solid body. In other words, as you advance to more real and more complicated levels, you do not leave behind you the things you found on the simpler levels: you still have them, but combined in new ways – in ways you could not imagine if you knew only the simpler levels.
Now the Christian account of God involves just the same principle. The human level is a simple and rather empty level. On the human level one person is one being, and any two persons are two separate beings – just as, in two dimensions (say on a flat sheet of paper) one square is one figure, and any two squares are two separate figures. On the Divine level you still find personalities; but up there you find them combined in new ways which we, who do not live on that level, cannot imagine. In God’s dimension, so to speak, you find a being who is three Persons while remaining one Being, just as a cube is six squares while remaining one cube. Of course we cannot fully conceive a Being like that: just as, if we were so made that we perceived only two dimensions in space we could never properly imagine a cube. But we can get a sort of faint notion of it. And when we do, we are then, for the first time in our lives, getting some positive idea, however faint, of something super-personal – something more than a person. It is something we could never have guessed, and yet, once we have been told, one almost feels one ought to have been able to guess it because it fits in so well with all the things we know already.
- Mere Christianity p. 161-162
So you believe C.S. Lewis knows more about Father (God) than Christ does?
 
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JoChris

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I don't reject Christianity.
ANYONE who denies Jesus is the Son of God, denies the Godhead (One God, three persons- FATHER, SON, and HOLY SPIRIT), denies JESUS died on the cross, denies JESUS is God made flesh rejects Christianity. All the distraction tactics in the world will never change the facts.
I'm not the only Muslim who rejects the trinity doctrine. You have millions of Christians who do not believe in the trinity
However, I'm not a Muslim scholar, not an Alim, so you should find your answers elsewhere. Hopefully, of course.
Which scholars?
Sunni, Shia, Sufi?
Liberal scholars (like Yassir Qahdi, infamous "holes in the narrative" scholar) or conservative, follow to the letter "don't think EVER, Allah knows best" scholars?
Quran-only, Quran and hadiths (except ones that westerners find out, THEN they're weak), Sharia Law obeyers (follow current laws that abrogated peace-loving Quran passages)?
Feminist/LGBT+ affirming or true believers?
Non-Arabic speaking scholars or those who can speak/write freely and uncensored (forgetting Google Translate and apostates now leak the information)...

I think non-muslims and genuine truth-seekers understand what I am getting at. Those who want the truth must seek reliable uncensored information resources themselves.
 
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I know what the gospel means, brother, but thanks for the information. I appreciate it.
Yep, I meant the original manuscripts. They don't exist today. We don't have them anymore, so how can you follow something when the original manuscripts are missing? Again, unless I am deeply mistaken here, I welcome anyone to correct me with proof. No cherry-picking verses etc.
As far as my knowledge goes, it's not even clear what “the original” even means. There are no biblical manuscripts that are old enough to qualify as candidates.

How would you ever know about God if it doesn't have to be written down? How would you know how to pray to Him, how to ask for forgiveness, how to repent, how to be moral, how to do this, do that, how to become a better human being, a better believer etc.

Then you're blindly following something without any proof. Didn't Jesus spread the word of God? His gospel? I don't think Jesus kept his faith to himself and preached to God all day at home, he was spreading it.
But what I'm trying to say here is that we don't have verses, letters, parchment, whatever you call them, written by the original authors.

How can we know "the word of God" if we have no proof? Do you understand where I'm going with this?
Imagine someone or something is building a massive space shuttle and leaving it on Earth without any instructions on how to start the engine and fly into space whatsoever, do you think that makes sense?
We cannot follow "something" without instructions. Believing in "God" without any instructions makes zero sense.
This requires one's own discernment or faith; the 'ears to hear'. Wasn't faith and discernment also required by the followers of Muhammad? Did they not have to believe his words when nothing yet had been written? According to Islam, Muhammad's revelations also existed in oral form before, through recitation by his followers, they ended up in written form. Muslims believe the Quran has been preserved by God, protected against corruption. Even if there wouldn't have been a written quran, Muslims would have faith in the oral word through recitation, regardless. Correct me if I'm wrong.

In Christianity (excluding Protestantism due to their doctrine of sola scriptura) the same is true with the oral tradition of the Apostles, for Christ entrusted them with His words and commandments to be preached to all nations (which is known as the Deposit of Faith) and promised them He would be with them until the end of the world:

καὶ προσελθὼν ὁ Ἰησοῦς ἐλάλησεν αὐτοῖς λέγων· Ἐδόθη μοι πᾶσα ἐξουσία ἐν οὐρανῷ καὶ ἐπὶ γῆς.
And Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying: All power is given to me in heaven and in earth. (Matt 28:18)

πορευθέντες μαθητεύσατε πάντα τὰ ἔθνη, βαπτίζοντες αὐτοὺς εἰς τὸ ὄνομα τοῦ Πατρὸς καὶ τοῦ Υἱοῦ καὶ τοῦ ἁγίου Πνεύματος,
Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. (Matt 28:19)

διδάσκοντες αὐτοὺς τηρεῖν πάντα ὅσα ἐνετειλάμην ὑμῖν· καὶ ἰδοὺ ἐγὼ μεθ’ ὑμῶν εἰμι πάσας τὰς ἡμέρας ἕως τῆς συντελείας τοῦ αἰῶνος. Ἀμήν.
Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world. (Matt 28:20)


The Word of God spread through the world and the church was born, the congregation that would preserve the Word of God in succession of the Apostles. In Catholic tradition, it is as follows:

Christ gave the keys to the Kingdom of God to Simon (Hebr: he who hears) and called him Petros (Gr: the rock / Cephas in Aramaic)) on which God would build his church and safeguard it from evil.

κἀγὼ δέ σοι λέγω ὅτι σὺ εἶ Πέτρος, καὶ ἐπὶ ταύτῃ τῇ πέτρᾳ οἰκοδομήσω μου τὴν ἐκκλησίαν, καὶ πύλαι ᾅδου οὐ κατισχύσουσιν αὐτῆς.
And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. (Matt 16:18)


So in Christianity (again excluding Protestantism) there is not only preservation of the word through scripture, but also preservation through sacred tradition and an uninterrupted succession of the Apostles, who spread God's Word which was, as scripture tells us, guarded by the Holy Spirit:

ὁ δὲ παράκλητος, τὸ Πνεῦμα τὸ ἅγιον ὃ πέμψει ὁ πατὴρ ἐν τῷ ὀνόματί μου, ἐκεῖνος ὑμᾶς διδάξει πάντα καὶ ὑπομνήσει ὑμᾶς πάντα ἃ εἶπον ὑμῖν.
But the Paraclete, the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring all things to your mind, whatsoever I shall have said to you. (John 14:16)


And those who would deny the Apostles, would deny Christ / God:

Ὁ ἀκούων ὑμῶν ἐμοῦ ἀκούει, καὶ ὁ ἀθετῶν ὑμᾶς ἐμὲ ἀθετεῖ· ὁ δὲ ἐμὲ ἀθετῶν ἀθετεῖ τὸν ἀποστείλαντά με.
He that heareth you, heareth me; and he that despiseth you, despiseth me; and he that despiseth me, despiseth him that sent me.
 

Wigi

Veteran
Joined
Aug 24, 2017
Messages
891
This is comprehensive video explaining the how there's no rhyme or reason to the trinity. As he says at 2:05, "the trinity must be read into scripture, not out from it". The comments on the YT video are nice to read as well.
God's Triune nature is explicit in some occasions and implicit most of the time in the entire Bible.
But it's not because something is mostly implicit that it's no longer true or, for example, we could argue nowhere it is explicitly said in the Quran that muslims have to pray 5 times a day. For that reason one have to do more than staying at surface level to come to the proper conclusion and it's the same about God's Triune nature which is an undeniable conclusion to me.

All I can say is when we knock at the door, it opens

"For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened."
Matthew 7:8
 

Red Sky at Morning

Superstar
Joined
Mar 15, 2017
Messages
13,933
God's Triune nature is explicit in some occasions and implicit most of the time in the entire Bible.
But it's not because something is mostly implicit that it's no longer true or, for example, we could argue nowhere it is explicitly said in the Quran that muslims have to pray 5 times a day. For that reason one have to do more than staying at surface level to come to the proper conclusion and it's the same about God's Triune nature which is an undeniable conclusion to me.

All I can say is when we knock at the door, it opens

"For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened."
Matthew 7:8
If you consider the attributes of God, it seems that each of them apply equally to Father, Son and Holy Spirit. It’s a good study if anyone wants to check this claim. The significance of that observation will only be wasted on those who don’t wish to understand.
 
Joined
Mar 30, 2017
Messages
3,578
God's Triune nature is explicit in some occasions and implicit most of the time in the entire Bible.
But it's not because something is mostly implicit that it's no longer true or, for example, we could argue nowhere it is explicitly said in the Quran that muslims have to pray 5 times a day. For that reason one have to do more than staying at surface level to come to the proper conclusion and it's the same about God's Triune nature which is an undeniable conclusion to me.

All I can say is when we knock at the door, it opens

"For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened."
Matthew 7:8
I'm not really interested in discussing this, as I was referring to the video and how it made logical sense. If you want to believe the trinity, go right ahead, no one is stopping you.
 

Maldarker

Star
Joined
Mar 23, 2021
Messages
2,064
I'm not Daze, our writing isn't the same, but nice try, bro.
You cannot say the same about me because I never said anything bad about you or your religion whatsoever.
So, our situation isn't even remotely the same. You did the insulting part here, not me. You got all psyched up as soon as I said that the trinity doesn't make sense.

Your "so-called trinity" is mentioned only once in your bible. The father, the son and the holy spirit. If your trinity was so important to Mankind, then it would be written all over your bible, just as "God is the only creator and only He should be worshipped" written all over the Qur'an.
Jesus didn't preach the trinity to his people, he was spreading the word of God. That's a well-known fact.

That is the entire point I was trying to make here, but no, your ego didn't allow you to behave like a nice guy and pay attention to my messages so you had to insult me and my entire religion. Come on, bro, haha.
I mean, it's cool, man, if that makes you feel happier, I'm not upset with you. We're strangers, but I'm telling you, if you want a normal conversation about these things, I'm all game, but you can 100% do way better than that, without the insulting part.


I can 100% guarantee you that I'm not playing innocent here whatsoever.
You said that you were defending my faith at the post #67, dude, I don't read everything. I don't have time to read everything on here. BUT if you did that, kudos to you, big respect, but you can't just say that you "defended my religion" and then hours or days later, you quote my post and insult me and my religion.
Come on, bro, haha. It just feels wrong and dumb.

How about a handshake? We good?
I did defend your faith once tried to get along with but not anymore...because never got same respect back just attacks so no, no handshake, no where not good i stand by what i said....its evident in the "we" "us" statements for start but i don't have to defend it to you not anymore...

BTW the first statement is hes not going to watch a video....(this offended you?) (you said yourself you didn't read this whole thread but yet i offended you...) this this right here is why i think your a snake in the grass come in all innocent and play the victim nice nice indeed you fit the part well...
 
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