Did Jesus Christ give christians license to sin ?

[Red Sky at Morning]

Scripture is being abused by cherry picking just about any verses in order to justify one's personal flavour or doctrine. And that is why we have so many denominations.

I am surprised that some don't even know and also argue against the absolute fact that Jesus Christ decides who will enter eternal life with Him. This is not some random pick and choose or eeny meeny miny moe on His part as one supposed and neither will He show favoritism.

"No one comes to the Father except through Me."

How much more crystal clear can it get ? He decides who will enter into the kingdom of God ! There is no open border policy here. You need the stamp of approval from God to get in.

How will we get that stamp of approval into what we strive to achieve ? By trusting Him with our lives and do good works to show Him that we understand that faith and work are as inseparable as two feets to run a marathon.

"Look and listen you vain senseless fools faith without works is dead."

I love my wife and try to do what I can to put a smile on her face. It would be possible to marry someone without loving them or caring about their happiness, but what kind of marriage would that be? I could love someone but unless I actually married them, we would not be married.

You can want to serve God and please him, and you may admire Jesus greatly, but if you are not born again and have reached the realisation that Jesus is your saviour, and has the right to Lordship over your life, you remain unsaved.

 

[TokiEl]

You can want to serve God and please him, and you may admire Jesus greatly, but if you are not born again and have reached the realisation that Jesus is your saviour, and has the right to Lordship over your life, you remain unsaved.

You are not in the position to confer salvation on anybody so there is absolutely no need for you or anybody else to say you are saved and you are unsaved. Also you are not born again ! before your body is glorified.

 

[Vytas]

I am surprised that some don't even know and also argue against the absolute fact that Jesus Christ decides who will enter eternal life with Him.

He already picked all of us before existence of this world, we exist because He choose us. Now it's up to us to make it two way relationship, He loved us first, now either we come to him or we don't....

 

[Daciple]

Scripture is being abused by cherry picking just about any verses in order to justify one's personal flavour or doctrine. And that is why we have so many denominations.

I am surprised that some don't even know and also argue against the absolute fact that Jesus Christ decides who will enter eternal life with Him. This is not some random pick and choose or eeny meeny miny moe on His part as one supposed and neither will He show favoritism.

"No one comes to the Father except through Me."

How much more crystal clear can it get ? He decides who will enter into the kingdom of God ! There is no open border policy here. You need the stamp of approval from God to get in.

How will we get that stamp of approval into what we strive to achieve ? By trusting Him with our lives and do good works to show Him that we understand that faith and work are as inseparable as two feets to run a marathon.

"Look and listen you vain senseless fools faith without works is dead."

How is what I stated incorrect according to Scripture? I 100% agree there is absolutely no way to the Father save by Christ and Christ Alone. Yet does Christ choose? According to Scripture the Father does, no man can come to Christ unless the Father draws him. And Jesus holds all those that the Father gives to Him. However Scripture is clear that ALL men are offered Salvation, the Father draws all men to Christ at some point and in some way.

Please explain how this is incorrect, also please dont accuse me of Cherry Picking as I can accuse you as such if I chose too... Does the Father have to draw someone for them to come to Christ yes or no? Will Jesus keep all that the Father gives to Him yes or no? Does the Father and Christ will that all men be saved yes or no? Is all one need to do to be saved is believe on Christ yes or no?

 

[Daciple]

Also you are not born again ! before your body is glorified.

Where do you get this idea that one is not Born Again until they have their glorified body? I will accept what Jesus says concerning this topic:

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Jesus is talking about a Spiritual Birth here, and it is signified by the death of the Flesh aka the Old Man and the Birth of the Spiritual Man, the new Man, as Paul wrote about:

Eph 4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

These are present tense statements, the Old Man was Crucified with Christ on the Cross once we believe, and the New Man is Born, Created by God in Righteousness and Holiness after Baptism in the Holy Spirit which all happens when one simply believes on Christ.

Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.


Col 3:9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

Being Born Again is the term for the Spiritual Change that happens when one comes to Christ, they die and are Crucified on the Cross with Christ and then are Resurrected Spiritually with a New Man and the Holy Spirit living inside of them that guides them into the Mind and Will of God. Full Glorification happens when Christ raises us up on the Last Day, but no one who isnt Born Again aka has that Spiritual Change happen before they die will have the Resurrection unto Life with Christ...

 

[TokiEl]

Yet does Christ choose? According to Scripture the Father does, no man can come to Christ unless the Father draws him.

An extremely important point is that Jesus showed by example how we ought to nurture our relationship with God. He didn't come and say 'hey here I AM worship me'... but acted out His earthly life as an example in humility and obedience to God. How can God submit to God ? Well that is the awesome Threefold aspect of God. And when Philip asked Him 'show us the Father and that is enough for us'. Jesus made it crystal clear that He is in no way different from the Father. 'Anyone who has seen Me has seen the Father'.

Now the Father has given Jesus Christ all authority in Heaven and on earth and so make no mistake about it... you do not enter into the Kingdom of God except through Him.


Luke 13 23“Lord,” someone asked Him, “will only a few people be saved?”
Jesus answered, 24“Make every effort to enter through the narrow door.
For many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able.
25After the master of the house gets up and shuts the door,
you will stand outside knocking and saying, ‘Lord, open the door for us.’

But he will reply, ‘I do not know where you are from.’
26Then you will say, ‘We ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.’
27And he will answer, ‘I tell you, I do not know where you are from. Depart from me, all you evildoers.’

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

I think this guy manages to get the balance right in just 3 minutes...

 

[TokiEl]

Where do you get this idea that one is not Born Again until they have their glorified body? I will accept what Jesus says concerning this topic:

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Sigh you're not born again before you're born of the Spirit as in getting glorified which you might be at the last trump.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Another reason, it seems to me, is because the scriptures themselves are so ambiguously written and thus open to myriad, at times conflicting, interpretation. The history of Protestantism, as I read it, is one of never ending schism and church splits. At least Catholics are comparatively unanimous, even if they unanimously agree on arguably false doctrine .

I say that as somebody -a non-Christian, though educated in the tradition- who is interested in this sin question, as it is addressed by Christians, and am listening in on how the problem is thought to be remedied, or solved, by Jesus and his life's mission.

Perhaps some of the ambiguity comes from the conflict between our linear time-bound perspective and God's eternal viewpoint. I don't know many Christians who can clearly explain free will and predestination, not because they don't believe it but rather like when an artist renders a three dimensional transposition of what he sees on two dimensional paper, the result will always be somewhat less than the observed reality.

 

[floss]

He already picked all of us before existence of this world, we exist because He choose us. Now it's up to us to make it two way relationship, He loved us first, now either we come to him or we don't....

This is deep, I can see some truth in it. Can you elaborate with scriptures brother. Thanks

 

[TokiEl]

Another reason, it seems to me, is because the scriptures themselves are so ambiguously written and thus open to myriad, at times conflicting, interpretation.

Right and we all see as through a glass darkly.

It is not so easy to understand heavenly things which are invisible to us but in the Bible and by experience we can catch glimpses of that eternal imperial realm.

But truth be told there are a lot of false teachers out there.

 

[Serveto]

Perhaps some of the ambiguity comes from the conflict between our linear time-bound perspective and God's eternal viewpoint. I don't know many Christians who can clearly explain free will and predestination, not because they don't believe it but rather like when an artist renders a three dimensional transposition of what he sees on two dimensional paper, the result will always be somewhat less than the observed reality.

I understand that, with some especially spiritual concepts, often involving complex metaphysics, linear explanations will be inadequate. However, the practical question of whether or not a Christian, having become a Christian, remains a sinner ought not be that difficult to answer, it seems to me.

 

[Vytas]

This is deep, I can see some truth in it. Can you elaborate with scriptures brother. Thanks

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.


1Jn 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
1Jn 4:19 We love him, because he first loved us.


Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

 

[TokiEl]

However, the practical question of whether or not a Christian, once a Christian, remains a sinner ought not be that difficult to answer, it seems to me.

A lot of people are posing as Christians.

Some being born into that tradition and some actively seeking to undermine Christendom by comitting crimes and/or deceiving Christians.
A lot of Masons are pastors.

The solution for sinners is to believe that Jesus Christ is the all sufficient sacrifice for sins and so engage in a relationship with Him who hears our prayers and heals our body and mind and guides us into truths and good works.

 

[elsbet]

I understand that, with some especially spiritual concepts, often involving complex metaphysics, linear explanations will be inadequate. However, the practical question of whether or not a Christian, once a Christian, remains a sinner ought not be that difficult to answer, it seems to me.

Hmm
As long as the Spirit is in the body, yes-- we will sin-- the dreaded flesh, at war with the Spirit.
Is that what you are asking?

 

[Vytas]

On surface it seems denominations exist because of different view/explanation of scripture, but when you think about it, Why are they reading same thing and getting different answers/understanding? Thats because of enemy and his devices, very few people actually deal with bible berean way, most just simply trust what they are told by their leaders. We do not have too many denominations we do have too many religious leaders. How many we should actually have? 0. But because blind leads the blind... It a punishment for us as a body of Christ for not being bereans...

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

I was primarily addressing the issue of why there are so many Protestant denominations. Whether people are "cherry picking," which is always a possibility, though not the only possibility, or if the scriptures themselves are ambiguously written. For instance, and I don't mean to be cherry picking myself, but one scripture which comes to my mind, welling up no doubt from Sunday School lessons in times past, is this one (and sorry, any and everybody, if it is thought to be "out of context," I don't know the context and see no need to quote the whole chapter):

"He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil."
(1 John 3:8)​

...and to Peter, having commended him when he said "you are the Christ..." He rebukes him saying "Get thee behind me Satan"... Was Peter really Satan, or was there more going on there?

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

On surface it seems denominations exist because of different view/explanation of scripture, but when you think about it, Why are they reading same thing and getting different answers/understanding? Thats because of enemy and his devices, very few people actually deal with bible berean way, most just simply trust what they are told by their leaders. We do not have too many denominations we do have too many religious leaders. How many we should actually have? 0. But because blind leads blind... It a punishment for us a a body of Christ for not being bereans...

I.e. call no man "Father"?

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

On the subject of Calvinism Vs Arminianism, it is difficult but I think arguable that both are true.

There are past, present and future components to our salvation. Calvinism argues from past and future, and finds verses to support this. Arminianism argues for today and finds support.

The concept I came across was "Antinomy"...

antinomy
anˈtɪnəmi/
noun

1. a contradiction between two beliefs or conclusions that are in themselves reasonable; a paradox.
   "there are not many short novels capable of accommodating bewildering antinomies"

Free will? Predestination? Is "both" really too hard to handle?

 

[Serveto]

...and to Peter, having commended him when he said "you are the Christ..." He rebukes him saying "Get thee behind me Satan"... Was Peter really Satan, or was there more going on there?

I have no idea. I will sit out for awhile now and listen. Even though I posted, I don't want to get too involved in the substance of this discussion because I am starting to be, well, I think the word is convicted of my own sins and I don't like the feeling .