Did Jesus burn in hell for three days?

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#62
I only find Jesus speaking about “Hell”, NOT “Abraham’s Bosom”.
This is the fourth or fifth time this verse has been quoted to you in response to your claim that "Abraham's bosom" appears nowhere in the Bible. Read the whole passage, please, and then make your case that there is no such thing.

And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
 





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#63
Jesus did not burn in hell at all. The Underworld is a place beneath the Earth's surface which has many levels. Egyptians named it Duat (also known as Tartarus for the Greeks) and Osiris was its ruler.

https://www.ancient-origins.net/his...-chambers-hell-afterlife-ancient-egypt-008228

The lake of fire is simply the lowest level of the Underworld and Jesus never went there. His descent in the Underworld is another parallel with the God Osiris. I know some Christians here do not like that comparison but let's face it there are many Egyptian elements in Christianity. Greek mythology as well (Appolyon, Titans etc.).
 





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#64
I do not subscribe to dispensationalism.
Then you do not subscribe to the Holy Scriptures, for Paul uses the word "stewardship", which means dispensation. A dispensation or stewardship is a period of time that God gives man to deal with the covenants (or test) that He has set before man in a certain way. Man has failed every "Stewardship".... What is the point? Without God, man left to himself is doomed...he needs God. So quit rejecting God's witness of man's nature and making up your own religion. Paul was preaching the Dispensation of the "Gospel" or a Steward of the Truth of the Good News, (1 Cor. 9:16-18) of which, we are in the "Stewardship" also, that has an ending. We are now under the "Stewardship" of Grace, and when it ends, we will be under the "Stewardship" (Dispensation) of The Kingdom (Rev. 20:11-15).
 





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#65
This is the fourth or fifth time this verse has been quoted to you in response to your claim that "Abraham's bosom" appears nowhere in the Bible. Read the whole passage, please, and then make your case that there is no such thing.


And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
Read the entire passage.


Luke 16 KJB :
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

^^According to verse 23, the rich man is in Hell. He looks “UP” & sees Abraham & Lazarus (far away) in Heaven. This indicates the rich man is “down”.....makes sense, since Heaven is above; Hell is below.

Abraham is embracing Lazarus, giving him a hug, which explains why Lazarus is in his bosom.....THAT is what the rich man sees when he looks up from Hell.

“Bosom” has ONE Biblical meaning: the frontal chest area.

Abraham’s “bosom” is his CHEST AREA......NOT a geographical location!

This is confirmed in verse 25 when Abraham says Lazarus is “comforted”. Abraham is hugging Lazarus, because Abraham is also in Heaven.

Abraham was saved, as the Bible says his faith was counted as righteousness:

“For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.”......Romans 4:8 KJB

When you hold/embrace a person in your bosom (chest), that means you are hugging them. Hugging is an act of COMFORTING someone, is it not??

When we have a tornado come through (we get about 2-4 annually), we go into this special mini-basement shelter/safe room underground that we access through the floor of the closet beneath our staircase. When my daughter hears them approaching (they are incredibly loud, with a very distinct sound—like a massive freight train, or a roller coaster at top speed) she becomes afraid.

I take her into my bosom to comfort her. That doesn’t mean she is actually climbing into my chest cavity, or that my bosom has detached and become a supernatural holding cell, does it? No, it simply means I am hugging her.

You guys are turning your misunderstanding of Luke 16 into a false doctrine.

You say that Luke 16 was not a parable, and I agree, so why don’t you believe the literal meaning when it says Lazarus was in Abraham’s bosom (Lazarus was hugged by Abraham)?

That is what it means everywhere else in the Bible:

“And Sarai said unto Abram, My wrong be upon thee: I have given my maid into thy bosom; and when she saw that she had conceived, I was despised in her eyes: the LORD judge between me and thee.”....Genesis 16:5 KJB

^^^^If “Abraham’s bosom” is a supernatural place that OT saints went to upon death, please explain how Abraham’s wife sent her maid (Who was ALIVE) to Abraham’s bosom & she got pregnant? How did she return if she (according to your explanation of the purpose of Abraham’s bosom) had to stay there until after Christ died and went down to fetch those who were held there??


“And she arose at midnight, and took my son from beside me, while thine handmaid slept, and laid it in her bosom, and laid her dead child in my bosom.”......1 Kings 3:20 KJB

^^2 baby boys, one dead, one alive, both going to a “bosom”, but clearly NOT “Abraham’s bosom”...does that mean the dead baby went to Hell? Or perhaps the “wrong” bosom??

Can you please expound on this for me, because I thought babies went to Heaven when they die but that one went to a woman’s bosom instead of Abraham’s. Why??

How can ALL these different bosoms exist apart from Abraham’s? Are these all different supernatural holding cells?


“Now there was leaning on Jesus' bosom one of his disciples, whom Jesus loved.”.....John 13:23 KJB

^^^So here we have John leaning on Jesus bosom. Both are alive.

Taking your theory of Abraham’s bosom being an underground place dead OT saints go to until Jesus fetched them just DOES NOT match up with all the other uses & descriptions of “bosom” in the Bible.

They ALL seem to be speaking of a person’s physical, frontal chest area......in BOTH the NT AND the OT.

Yet you claim out of all the mentions, the one in Luke 16 means something completely different than all the others, even though the other occurrences corroborate one another??

AND add to that the fact that NOWHERE else in the entire Bible is it mentioned that some other realm within the heart of the earth exists a place called “Abraham’s bosom”.

You take the passage in Luke 16 literally ........everywhere EXCEPT the word “bosom”.

It seems much more likely that YOU are misunderstanding Luke 16.

As I said, if you just compare Scripture to Scripture and let the Bible define itself, it is clear as a bell......no need to listen to people who tell you to translate anything into a language you don’t understand, or isolate one verse and create a doctrine contradictory to its meaning, which is consistent everywhere else in the Bible.

Whoever taught you that strange doctrine of Abraham’s bosom was deceived, or a deceiver.

0BC93350-4820-4CE6-A9CC-5194CC0CBFFE.jpeg
 





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#66
I agree with @Claire Rousseau 's asessment that Abraham's Bosom is not refering to a geopraphical or spiritual location and that it is conveying that Abraham was indeed comforting Lazarus. However I disagree that this story is a literal, historical story. It is indeed a parable. This parable already existed in the Gemara Babylonicum (The babylonian version of the Talmud). Jesus was using a parable that the pharisees were already familiar with to emphasis the points he had already made in the preceding parables.

The subject of the parables has nothing to do with establishing doctrine about the afterlife or establishing the doctrine of endless torment. There are so many absurd conclusions that would have to be made if the story is taken as literal. The story is rife with symbolic gestures consistent with symbolism used throughout scripture.
 





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#67
Read the entire passage.


Luke 16 KJB :
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

^^According to verse 23, the rich man is in Hell. He looks “UP” & sees Abraham & Lazarus (far away) in Heaven. This indicates the rich man is “down”.....makes sense, since Heaven is above; Hell is below.

Abraham is embracing Lazarus, giving him a hug, which explains why Lazarus is in his bosom.....THAT is what the rich man sees when he looks up from Hell.

“Bosom” has ONE Biblical meaning: the frontal chest area.

Abraham’s “bosom” is his CHEST AREA......NOT a geographical location!

This is confirmed in verse 25 when Abraham says Lazarus is “comforted”. Abraham is hugging Lazarus, because Abraham is also in Heaven.

Abraham was saved, as the Bible says his faith was counted as righteousness:

“For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.”......Romans 4:8 KJB

When you hold/embrace a person in your bosom (chest), that means you are hugging them. Hugging is an act of COMFORTING someone, is it not??

When we have a tornado come through (we get about 2-4 annually), we go into this special mini-basement shelter/safe room underground that we access through the floor of the closet beneath our staircase. When my daughter hears them approaching (they are incredibly loud, with a very distinct sound—like a massive freight train, or a roller coaster at top speed) she becomes afraid.

I take her into my bosom to comfort her. That doesn’t mean she is actually climbing into my chest cavity, or that my bosom has detached and become a supernatural holding cell, does it? No, it simply means I am hugging her.

You guys are turning your misunderstanding of Luke 16 into a false doctrine.

You say that Luke 16 was not a parable, and I agree, so why don’t you believe the literal meaning when it says Lazarus was in Abraham’s bosom (Lazarus was hugged by Abraham)?

That is what it means everywhere else in the Bible:

“And Sarai said unto Abram, My wrong be upon thee: I have given my maid into thy bosom; and when she saw that she had conceived, I was despised in her eyes: the LORD judge between me and thee.”....Genesis 16:5 KJB

^^^^If “Abraham’s bosom” is a supernatural place that OT saints went to upon death, please explain how Abraham’s wife sent her maid (Who was ALIVE) to Abraham’s bosom & she got pregnant? How did she return if she (according to your explanation of the purpose of Abraham’s bosom) had to stay there until after Christ died and went down to fetch those who were held there??


“And she arose at midnight, and took my son from beside me, while thine handmaid slept, and laid it in her bosom, and laid her dead child in my bosom.”......1 Kings 3:20 KJB

^^2 baby boys, one dead, one alive, both going to a “bosom”, but clearly NOT “Abraham’s bosom”...does that mean the dead baby went to Hell? Or perhaps the “wrong” bosom??

Can you please expound on this for me, because I thought babies went to Heaven when they die but that one went to a woman’s bosom instead of Abraham’s. Why??

How can ALL these different bosoms exist apart from Abraham’s? Are these all different supernatural holding cells?


“Now there was leaning on Jesus' bosom one of his disciples, whom Jesus loved.”.....John 13:23 KJB

^^^So here we have John leaning on Jesus bosom. Both are alive.

Taking your theory of Abraham’s bosom being an underground place dead OT saints go to until Jesus fetched them just DOES NOT match up with all the other uses & descriptions of “bosom” in the Bible.

They ALL seem to be speaking of a person’s physical, frontal chest area......in BOTH the NT AND the OT.

Yet you claim out of all the mentions, the one in Luke 16 means something completely different than all the others, even though the other occurrences corroborate one another??

AND add to that the fact that NOWHERE else in the entire Bible is it mentioned that some other realm within the heart of the earth exists a place called “Abraham’s bosom”.

You take the passage in Luke 16 literally ........everywhere EXCEPT the word “bosom”.

It seems much more likely that YOU are misunderstanding Luke 16.

As I said, if you just compare Scripture to Scripture and let the Bible define itself, it is clear as a bell......no need to listen to people who tell you to translate anything into a language you don’t understand, or isolate one verse and create a doctrine contradictory to its meaning, which is consistent everywhere else in the Bible.

Whoever taught you that strange doctrine of Abraham’s bosom was deceived, or a deceiver.

View attachment 23634
The name isn't really that important. If it will move things along, why don't you just pick a name for the place where the righteous dead waited for Jesus Christ to die so they could go to Heaven, and we'll use that name for it from now on?
 





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#68
The name isn't really that important. If it will move things along, why don't you just pick a name for the place where the righteous dead waited for Jesus Christ to die so they could go to Heaven, and we'll use that name for it from now on?
Never.
Because I cannot and will not add to God’s perfect Word, nor will I dare to teach others to do so.

It is not mine to change.

I would rather just believe what God wrote.
 





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#69
Never.
Because I cannot and will not add to God’s perfect Word, nor will I dare to teach others to do so.

It is not mine to change.

I would rather just believe what God wrote.
Not asking you to change anything. Just answer a question:

Where does God say Old Testament saints went when they died?
 





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#70
Not asking you to change anything. Just answer a question:

Where does God say Old Testament saints went when they died?
Heaven, just like us.

That is why Abraham was already in Heaven when Jesus told the story of Lazarus & the rich man.

OT saints were saved the same way we are: believing on and calling upon the Lord to save them.

Remember that WE experience time in a linear fashion....God, however, is NOT bound by time & space as we are; He is outside of it.

He can see the end from the beginning.

Jesus Christ is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

God always promised that He would provide a Messiah to save us from our sins. God cannot lie, His Word is more solid than oak. If He says He will do something, it is as good as done.

The Bible only teaches 2 destinations: Heaven for believers or Hell for unbelievers.

Psalms 139 KJB:
7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?

8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

I already provided Scriptures a few posts ago of Enoch & Elijah in Heaven.
 





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#71
Heaven, just like us.

That is why Abraham was already in Heaven when Jesus told the story of Lazarus & the rich man.

OT saints were saved the same way we are: believing on and calling upon the Lord to save them.

Remember that WE experience time in a linear fashion....God, however, is NOT bound by time & space as we are; He is outside of it.

He can see the end from the beginning.

Jesus Christ is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

God always promised that He would provide a Messiah to save us from our sins. God cannot lie, His Word is more solid than oak. If He says He will do something, it is as good as done.

The Bible only teaches 2 destinations: Heaven for believers or Hell for unbelievers.

Psalms 139 KJB:
7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?

8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

I already provided Scriptures a few posts ago of Enoch & Elijah in Heaven.

So if all these people went to Heaven before Jesus then what do you make if this very specific and exclusionary verse?

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Also what did Jesus say to Martha, I am pretty sure He was very specific as to where He went or better yet had NOT gone since dying and Resurrecting:

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

If that is not good enough the New Testament states exactly where Jesus went when He died, which is going to completely ruin your ideology and actually go directly to the OP:

Acts 2:25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:
26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:
27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

So according to the New Testament Scriptures, in English, Jesus soul WENT to Hell, but wasnt LEFT there. Jesus HAD to have gone TO Hell in order for the Scriptures to say He wouldnt be LEFT there.

So now the onus is on you to stick to your personal preference of rejecting the underlying Greek/Hebrew Texts of what word was used in that Scripture and accept that Jesus WENT TO HELL itself.

I personally do not know how you are going to stay consistent with your ideologies and personal preferences in light of Scriptures that teach NO ONE went to Heaven before Christ, and the English which say specifically that Jesus WENT TO HELL.

I however understand that there are different words in the underlying Text that tell us exactly what the original author was speaking about, which is that Jesus went to HADES or the GRAVE and the Scripture is saying the God wont leave Him THERE.

All of which is congruent with everything else I and others have been stating. The Grave consisted of what we refer to as Abrahams Bosom and a place where the Lost were, Jesus went THERE preached and took the rest of the dead that were there into Heaven, just as Scriptures describe.

In my view it is either believe that or believe Jesus literally went into Hell itself, which is not something I believe He did, but if I take the English exactly as it is written then I would HAVE to believe such at thing, which I would assume the ideology of the OP comes from..

Again to each their own, believe whatever you want, be inconsistent in your personal preferences and what the English says trying to twist everything to make them not conflict, or accept what the Greek/Hebrew states which is consistent with the rest of Scripture and Jesus own words...
 





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#72
He can see the end from the beginning.

Jesus Christ is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
That's something to think about. But if the same rule is applied to everything, everything loses purpose. Everything is already done.
 





Yahda

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#73
Genesis 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

In the scriptures of the Old Testament, death was described as rest/sleep by God.

God NEVER promised his chosen heaven. His promise was that they would return to the “promised” land.
 





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#74
Genesis 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

In the scriptures of the Old Testament, death was described as rest/sleep by God.

God NEVER promised his chosen heaven. His promise was that they would return to the “promised” land.[/Q
Have you ever read the New Covenant (New Testament)? It says different. The reason it was not clear in the OT, is because The NT Scriptures says it was, "left up to Christ to bring life and immortality to light...not that He created it at that time, but He brought to light what He had already created and existed. (2 Tim. 1:9-10)
 





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#75
So if all these people went to Heaven before Jesus then what do you make if this very specific and exclusionary verse?

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Also what did Jesus say to Martha, I am pretty sure He was very specific as to where He went or better yet had NOT gone since dying and Resurrecting:

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

If that is not good enough the New Testament states exactly where Jesus went when He died, which is going to completely ruin your ideology and actually go directly to the OP:

Acts 2:25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:
26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:
27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

So according to the New Testament Scriptures, in English, Jesus soul WENT to Hell, but wasnt LEFT there. Jesus HAD to have gone TO Hell in order for the Scriptures to say He wouldnt be LEFT there.

So now the onus is on you to stick to your personal preference of rejecting the underlying Greek/Hebrew Texts of what word was used in that Scripture and accept that Jesus WENT TO HELL itself.

I personally do not know how you are going to stay consistent with your ideologies and personal preferences in light of Scriptures that teach NO ONE went to Heaven before Christ, and the English which say specifically that Jesus WENT TO HELL.

I however understand that there are different words in the underlying Text that tell us exactly what the original author was speaking about, which is that Jesus went to HADES or the GRAVE and the Scripture is saying the God wont leave Him THERE.

All of which is congruent with everything else I and others have been stating. The Grave consisted of what we refer to as Abrahams Bosom and a place where the Lost were, Jesus went THERE preached and took the rest of the dead that were there into Heaven, just as Scriptures describe.

In my view it is either believe that or believe Jesus literally went into Hell itself, which is not something I believe He did, but if I take the English exactly as it is written then I would HAVE to believe such at thing, which I would assume the ideology of the OP comes from..

Again to each their own, believe whatever you want, be inconsistent in your personal preferences and what the English says trying to twist everything to make them not conflict, or accept what the Greek/Hebrew states which is consistent with the rest of Scripture and Jesus own words...
The Bible does not say that no spirit or soul went to Heaven in the OT, only that no human BODY (flesh) has. The only flesh to ascend to Heaven was Christ Who was, as He said, IN Heaven. He said that while He was standing on earth.....because He is omnipresent.

Our bodies remain in the grave until our bodily resurrection which occurs at Jesus second coming.

But the spirit of all believers who have died are currently in Heaven:

2 Kings 2:11 KJB:
“And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.”


^^^That is an OT saint going UP to HEAVEN.

Do you agree or disagree that the Bible says Elijah went up to Heaven??

2 Kings 2:11 is very CLEAR.

Yes, I believe Jesus did go to Hell after His death on the Cross., and no, He was not left there, because He conquered death and Hell. But nowhere does it state He brought anyone up from Hell or the grave. Only Himself.

The unsaved remain there (Hell) to this day.
 





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#76
2 Kings 2:11 KJB:
“And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.”


^^^That is an OT saint going UP to HEAVEN.

Do you agree or disagree that the Bible says Elijah went up to Heaven??

2 Kings 2:11 is very CLEAR.
The scripture says that Elijah went into “the heavens”, plural. He did not go to “heaven”, singular.

There were even a group of people who went to look for Elijah because they concluded that the Spirit took him somewhere nearby.

2 Kings 2:15-16
And when the sons of the prophets which were to view at Jericho saw him, they said, The spirit of Elijah doth rest on Elisha. And they came to meet him, and bowed themselves to the ground before him.

And they said unto him, Behold now, there be with thy servants fifty strong men; let them go, we pray thee, and seek thy master: lest peradventure the Spirit of YHWH hath taken him up, and cast him upon some mountain, or into some valley.
There’s nothing to indicate that Elijah was taken up to the 3rd heaven where God lives.
 





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#77
The scripture says that Elijah went into “the heavens”, plural. He did not go to “heaven”, singular.

There were even a group of people who went to look for Elijah because they concluded that the Spirit took him somewhere nearby.

2 Kings 2:15-16


There’s nothing to indicate that Elijah was taken up to the 3rd heaven where God lives.
The KJB says “Heaven”, singular.
 





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#78
The KJB says “Heaven”, singular.
Once again @Claire Rousseau shows her stubborness and actually believes an English Translation commisioned by a political figure is more authoratative than the original hebrew words used by the actual authors of the scripture.

שָׁמַיִם shâmayim, shaw-mah'-yim; dual of an unused singular שָׁמֶה shâmeh; from an unused root meaning to be lofty; the sky (as aloft; the dual perhaps alluding to the visible arch in which the clouds move, as well as to the higher ether where the celestial bodies revolve):—air, × astrologer, heaven(-s).
 





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#79
The KJB says “Heaven”, singular.
yes it does, but that’s not correct, because what is in the Hebrew says “the heavens”.

The word used is ha’shamayim. The HA means ‘the’(like in Ha’Mashiach - the Messiah), and Shamayim, which is plural, is heavens.

The same phrase is in Genesis. God created HA’SHAMAYIM - the heavens.

Elijah was taken into HA’SHAMAYIM - the heavens.
 





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#80
Once again @Claire Rousseau shows her stubborness and actually believes an English Translation commisioned by a political figure is more authoratative than the original hebrew words used by the actual authors of the scripture.

שָׁמַיִם shâmayim, shaw-mah'-yim; dual of an unused singular שָׁמֶה shâmeh; from an unused root meaning to be lofty; the sky (as aloft; the dual perhaps alluding to the visible arch in which the clouds move, as well as to the higher ether where the celestial bodies revolve):—air, × astrologer, heaven(-s).
Not at all.

However, what I DO have is unwavering FAITH that God can and DID preserve His perfect Word as He promised.

I also have FAITH that, God, Who CREATED all languages, btw, can & DID translate His Word perfectly into other languages (including English, which is the most widely spoken language throughout the world) so that people of all nations who are not native in Greek & Hebrew could ALSO confidently read & study God’s Word on their own—without relying on an interpreter or clergyman to “teach” them the Bible.

The Holy Spirit is the only teacher we need, and the only one that is truly trustworthy.