Did Jesus Abolish the law by fulfilling it?

[Cintra]

The bible says "Thou shalt name your sources, and not just make it up."

 

[Tidal]

What, specifically, does "believe on" mean, and does it include believing in, and accepting, the atoning properties of the blood of the high priest?

"And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house."
(Acts 16:31)​

"Believing" simply means believing that Jesus was the Son of God, or to put it another way, working at believing it.
Jesus said - "The work God requires is to believe in the one he has sent" (John 6:28 )
So all that heavy-duty "doctrinal" stuff isn't relevant to that goal; certainly the ordinary joes in the street didn't get bogged down in it-
"And the common people heard Jesus gladly" (Mark 12:37)

No doubt people asked him why they should believe in him, and his answer was-
"Even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father." (John 10:38 )

Jesus's 37 Miracles-
Bringing little girl back to life
Bringing widows son back to life
Bringing Lazarus back to life
Stilling the storm
Feeding 4000
Walking on sea
Feeding 5000
Coin in fishes mouth
Withering fig tree
Big catch of fish
Water into wine
Another big fish catch
Healing leper
Healing Centurions servant
Healing Peters mother-in-law
Healing sick at evening
Healing paralysed man
Healing haemorraging woman
Healing two blind men
Healing mans withered hand
Healing Canaanite womans daughter
Healing boy with seizures
Healing blind man
Healing deaf and dumb man
Healing another blind man
Healing crippled woman
Healing man with dropsy
Healing 10 lepers
Restoring a cut-off ear
Healing noblemans sons fever
Healing crippled man at Bethesda
Healing a born-blind man
Casting out demons into pigs
Curing a mute lunatic
Casting out dirty spirit
Curing a possessed blind-dumb man
Appeared to his followers after his death

 

[Cintra]

"Believing" simply means believing that Jesus was the Son of God, or to put it another way, working at believing it.
Jesus said - "The work God requires is to believe in the one he has sent" (John 6:28 )
So all that heavy-duty "doctrinal" stuff isn't relevant to that goal; certainly the ordinary joes in the street didn't get bogged down in it-
"And the common people heard Jesus gladly" (Mark 12:37)

No doubt people asked him why they should believe in him, and his answer was-
"Even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father." (John 10:38 )

Jesus's 37 Miracles-
Bringing little girl back to life
Bringing widows son back to life
Bringing Lazarus back to life
Stilling the storm
Feeding 4000
Walking on sea
Feeding 5000
Coin in fishes mouth
Withering fig tree
Big catch of fish
Water into wine
Another big fish catch
Healing leper
Healing Centurions servant
Healing Peters mother-in-law
Healing sick at evening
Healing paralysed man
Healing haemorraging woman
Healing two blind men
Healing mans withered hand
Healing Canaanite womans daughter
Healing boy with seizures
Healing blind man
Healing deaf and dumb man
Healing another blind man
Healing crippled woman
Healing man with dropsy
Healing 10 lepers
Restoring a cut-off ear
Healing noblemans sons fever
Healing crippled man at Bethesda
Healing a born-blind man
Casting out demons into pigs
Curing a mute lunatic
Casting out dirty spirit
Curing a possessed blind-dumb man
Appeared to his followers after his death

But the bible says "Thou shalt be honest about all things, for those that lie about my words are damned until the tenth generation."

It also says "They that are arrogant and rude shall not enter into the kingdom, but shalt be thrown into the pit of sulphur, and there thety shall writhe until etermity."

And "Do not falsify the words of god, but be humble and truthful in all things."

 

[A Freeman]

Actually you are the one who is in error and are spreading deception. You obviously don’t understand Jesus and why He came and you surely have no idea about being saved by grace through faith.

The Scriptures prove beyond any reasonable doubt otherwise.

Christ came to destroy sin/the works of the devil/breaking The Law.

Christ did NOT come to destroy The Law.

It couldn't be any simpler to understand. Anyone who isn't keeping The Law has no idea what Faith (trust in God) is. It's by the Grace of God we all weren't executed for our sinful/evil/criminal/lawless/satanic behavior long ago.

 

[Tidal]

..it would have been considerably easier for the common folk of Jesus' day to "believe," not least because Christianity offered a comparatively easier way to redemption..

Plus of course because Jesus said to the snooty priests what the people had been longing to say themselves for a long time..

"You're full of it"

“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites!
You are like whitewashed tombs, which look clean on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean" (Matt 23:27)

 

[Lisa]

"You're full of it"

Is that your paraphrase? Haha

 

[Cintra]

Is that your paraphrase? Haha

Nah, its from his secret special bible.
It's amazing the things it says.

It says this...

"Those that give their own opinions while pretending they are quoting from a source are liars and the thieves of truth. They are vile in the eye of god."

Its a really great version. I love it best.

 

[Lisa]

Nah, its from his secret special bible.
It's amazing the things it says.

It says this...

"Those that give their own opinions while pretending they are quoting from a source are liars and the thieves of truth. They are vile in the eye of god."

Its a really great version. I love it best.

I noticed he wasn’t up front about which version he uses.

 

[Cintra]

I noticed he wasn’t up front about which version he uses.

OMG! Yes!

I only asked because I was interested, and Tidal got really weird and defensive about it.
Really strange.

 

[KingKanti]

It is a salvation issue. Obedience has always been a test of loyalty to God. Starting from Adam and Eve, Cain and Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, the children of Israel etc. The Bible tells us what happens when we obey or disobey God. No one can walk with God without being obedient. Obedience is the result of having been saved by God's grace through Christ. Obedience is the evidence of faith in our lives, for we can only be righteous by faith. When we are obedient it means we love God. Obedience is not one of those things a Christian can skip doing. If we are true Christians we naturally obey. No one will make it to eternal life without being obedient. Disobedience is evidence that we are against God and reject Him and His precepts.

Of course we can't be obedient without God. We need God before we can obey, and we must choose to obey to receive the power to obey. We submit to God, God empowers us to do His will, we continue to obey, He empowers us to do more of His will, and so on and so forth. (Philippians 2:13) Without God’s saving grace, we have only our useless self-righteousness, but our obedience is crucial. We must choose to obey.

Romans 6:16, "Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?"

amen may God bless you for testifying to this truth in the name of Jesus Christ our Lord!

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

It is a salvation issue. Obedience has always been a test of loyalty to God. Starting from Adam and Eve, Cain and Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, the children of Israel etc. The Bible tells us what happens when we obey or disobey God. No one can walk with God without being obedient. Obedience is the result of having been saved by God's grace through Christ. Obedience is the evidence of faith in our lives, for we can only be righteous by faith. When we are obedient it means we love God. Obedience is not one of those things a Christian can skip doing. If we are true Christians we naturally obey. No one will make it to eternal life without being obedient. Disobedience is evidence that we are against God and reject Him and His precepts.

Of course we can't be obedient without God. We need God before we can obey, and we must choose to obey to receive the power to obey. We submit to God, God empowers us to do His will, we continue to obey, He empowers us to do more of His will, and so on and so forth. (Philippians 2:13) Without God’s saving grace, we have only our useless self-righteousness, but our obedience is crucial. We must choose to obey.

Romans 6:16, "Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?"

I don’t think we disagree at all on the value of obedience. Where the differences lie is in the understanding of the consequences of disobedience.

I believe disobedience leads to spiritual dryness, loss of fellowship with the Lord and works of “wood, hey and stubble”, leading to loss of joy and victory (and to discipline even up to the “sin unto death” i.e. maximum judgement), and loss or rewards in eternity.

 

[phipps]

I don’t think we disagree at all on the value of obedience. Where the differences lie is in the understanding of the consequences of disobedience.

I believe disobedience leads to spiritual dryness, loss of fellowship with the Lord and works of “wood, hey and stubble”, leading to loss of joy and victory (and to discipline even up to the “sin unto death” i.e. maximum judgement), and loss or rewards in eternity.

There shouldn't be a difference in the consequences of disobedience since the Bible is clear what will happen to those who disobey God. Don't you believe and trust God's Word?

Yes disobedience leads to spiritual decline, and if we don't repent and turn back we will lose eternal life. Its not a loss of rewards, its loss of eternal life. There is no such thing as a loss of rewards in heaven in the Bible. There are only two options in the Bible either you get in or you don't. The disobedient won't get in. I told you in the other post that God abhors sin, the Bible is clear on that. Whether they are little or big, of commission or omission. He loves us but not our sin. This explains why He left heaven to come and willingly die for our sin and sins. The death paid the debt and the penalty of sin and gives us power to overcome evil with good through His power that works within us. If we accept Christ, He gives us the power to obey.

I also told you that nothing that defiles will enter heaven after Jesus comes back the second time. Sin defiles."But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life" (Revelation 21:27). Add to this all the other warnings about what the consequences will be for the disobedient and its hard not to understand the clear Word of God on this subject.

 

[TokiEl]

I believe disobedience leads to spiritual dryness, loss of fellowship with the Lord and works of “wood, hey and stubble”, leading to loss of joy and victory (and to discipline even up to the “sin unto death” i.e. maximum judgement), and loss or rewards in eternity.

Where is the difference between that and sinners ?


Has there been no conversion after coming to Christ ? Do you suppose the Holy spirit is without power to convert a person ?

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Where is the difference between that and sinners ?

Has there been no conversion after coming to Christ ?

I only set out how I see it. You are both welcome to continue to interpret the Bible however you choose to. Romans 6, 7 and 8 seem to put our spiritual condition very clearly though.

 

[TokiEl]

I only set out how I see it. You are both welcome to continue to interpret the Bible however you choose to. Romans 6, 7 and 8 seem to put our spiritual condition very clearly though.

Is it possible that you have misunderstood Romans 7... thinking that Paul was still a sinnerman ?

 

[TokiEl]

Galatians 5 13For you, brothers, were called to freedom; but do not use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh. Rather, serve one another in love. 14The entire law is fulfilled in a single decree: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”a 15But if you keep on biting and devouring each other, watch out, or you will be consumed by each other.

16So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17For the flesh craves what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are opposed to each other, so that you do not do what you want. 18But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

19The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity, and debauchery; 20idolatry and sorcery; hatred, discord, jealousy, and rage; rivalries, divisions, factions, 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness, and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

24Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25Since we live by the Spirit, let us walk in step with the Spirit. 26Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying one another.

 

[phipps]

I only set out how I see it. You are both welcome to continue to interpret the Bible however you choose to. Romans 6, 7 and 8 seem to put our spiritual condition very clearly though.

You're the one interpreting the Bible wrong and you are making it contradict itself. Romans 6, 7 and 8 do not contradict the Bible you just haven't understood them and the entire Bible. God has never and never will excuse sin and no one who sins will enter heaven. Let the Word of God speak.

Proverbs 14:12, "There is a way that seems right to a man, But its end is the way of death."

Ezekiel 18:20, "The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself."

Mark 9:43, "If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched—"

Romans 6:23, "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." This not only refers to physical death, but to eternal separation from God, eternal death.

Ephesians 5:6, "Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience."

2 Peter 3:9, "The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance."

There is no such thing as God unconditionally accepting us regardless of our behaviour. Jesus does not save people in their sin. There is also no middle ground in the Bible when it comes to spiritual things. You are either for God or not. "No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be loyal to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon" (Matthew 6:24). This is the truth of God's Word.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Is it possible that you have misunderstood Romans 7... thinking that Paul was still a sinnerman ?

Paul acknowledges that as a believer you have the capacity to walk in the flesh or in the spirit. He exhorts the Romans to count themselves dead to sin and alive to God (not to make it so by doing, but because it is so in the spirit). Sanctification is learning to count ourselves dead to sin and alive to God and to walk as sons.

Taking the family imagery further, I don’t believe that God cuts off family members like a mafia boss if we fail to walk in the Spirit at all times, but the works done in the flesh will be wasted works, we will suffer loss and shame for doing them and will not receive the joy or rewards God would have had for us if we had been obedient.

 

[floss]

if we don't repent and turn back we will lose eternal life.

ELI5, how something ETERNAL can be lost? First define ETERNAL please.

 

[TokiEl]

Paul acknowledges that as a believer you have the capacity to walk in the flesh or in the spirit. He exhorts the Romans to count themselves dead to sin and alive to God (not to make it so by doing, but because it is so in the spirit). Sanctification is learning to count ourselves dead to sin and alive to God and to walk as sons.

Galatians 5 16So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17For the flesh craves what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are opposed to each other, so that you do not do what you want. 18But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

19The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity, and debauchery; 20idolatry and sorcery; hatred, discord, jealousy, and rage; rivalries, divisions, factions, 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness, and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

24Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25Since we live by the Spirit, let us walk in step with the Spirit. 26Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying one another.