Did Evolution Really Happen?

[Red Sky at Morning]

I was just wondering... How does the materialist world view explain the phenomenon of "words of knowledge" and genuine first hand healings?

Power of the mind? Collective unconscious? I did a "reductionist" degree, I get the whole materialist mindset, but in the end it's just like being colour-blind.

I don't mean to be disrespectful btw. I have a friend who can't see green. I can't explain it to him as it is nothing like red or blue...

 

[Vytas]

No, I've reached a conclusion I'd rather not have reached, but am unwilling to deceive myself about. Trust me, I'd prefer it if the world were a magical place, where miracles occur and benign powers watch over us. It's a great and highly reassuring story, understandable in its popularity, but a good story can't make the transition to reality just because I want it too, or because people who've been telling themselves and each other the story for generations insist it's not a story at all.


Sometimes it's evil incarnate.

I do pray in tongues, in this video it's obviously fake. Preacher must know it, but pays well i suppose...
Popularity has nothing to do with is. As soon as you become believer faith becomes experience, but after, not before. And when that happens this world starts to look fake and not not real, not the other one (spiritual)

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

If you have a foundational commitment that God doesn't exist, all data must be interpreted accordingly.

God existing is equated to "pigs flying" in popular atheist culture. Questioning that is atheist apostasy.

 

[Vytas]

If you have a foundational commitment that God doesn't exist, all data must be interpreted accordingly.

God existing is equated to "pigs flying" in popular atheist culture. Questioning that is atheist apostasy.

I really hope that people who discuss in conspiracy forum and fancy themselves awake, broke at least one foundational commitment before

 

[Etagloc]

This thread is still going- wow (lol)

 

[Etagloc]

If you have a foundational commitment that God doesn't exist, all data must be interpreted accordingly.

God existing is equated to "pigs flying" in popular atheist culture. Questioning that is atheist apostasy.

Is it really? That is horrifying lol. I thank God- where I live, atheism is not as big a thing.

 

[Etagloc]

I was just wondering... How does the materialist world view explain the phenomenon of "words of knowledge" and genuine first hand healings?

Power of the mind? Collective unconscious? I did a "reductionist" degree, I get the whole materialist mindset, but in the end it's just like being colour-blind.

I don't mean to be disrespectful btw. I have a friend who can't see green. I can't explain it to him as it is nothing like red or blue...

Well... religious phenomena... I think is to be taken seriously. William James wrote a great book (The Varieties of Religious Experience) that shook me to the core when i was an atheist.

I think there are things that can not be explained by science (at least by science as we know it).... but however..... I think we can find people of different religions who have had such experiences.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

This thread is still going- wow (lol)

It's been going for well over a century ;-)

 

[Mr.Grieves]

How does the materialist world view explain the phenomenon of "words of knowledge"

Can you elaborate? Don't know what this refers too.

genuine first hand healings?

You mean genuine faith-healings? Is there any evidence of such a thing confirmed by medical science? I mean an actual 'the tumor was there one day, then it was just gone the next' miraculous faith-healing?

Power of the mind? Collective unconscious?

One of the most universally successful medications is the Placebo. I do believe the disconnect between mind and body is nowhere near as distinct as a lot of us suppose, and that a positive shift in attitude can have a profound impact on physical health. If you're given reason to believe you're getting better, you'll feel better, and feeling better in a lot of cases may be a massive step toward getting better. It's well known that people suffering from depression don't just experience it in their head-space; they can experience profound fatigue, complete loss of appetite, aches and pains, nausea and vertigo, all as a result of their emotional malaise. Inversely, an uplifting emotional experience or state could very reasonably result in significant improvements in health.

I did a "reductionist" degree, I get the whole materialist mindset, but in the end it's just like being colour-blind.

I don't mean to be disrespectful btw. I have a friend who can't see green. I can't explain it to him as it is nothing like red or blue...

This is a fair analogy, and I honestly wholeheartedly agree with it. I do indeed believe- to an extent- that the difference between strong religious believers and those who find faith completely inaccessible is similar to the difference between the color-blind and the natural-sighted, and is likely tied to the body's production of DMT, a naturally occurring psychedelic present in all human beings. I personally believe that profound religious experience is a self-inflicted high; that the religious fits the faithful can work themselves up into is 'milking' this substance, but just like orgasms and laughing-fits, some people are more prone to them than others, while others still are completely incapable, by chance of birth.

I do pray in tongues, in this video it's obviously fake. Preacher must know it, but pays well i suppose...

The preacher in the video is borderline cynical in her efforts to work these kids up into fits in order to render them emotionally vulnerable and impressionable, with the clearly stated intention of recruiting them as 'soldiers' every bit as willing to kill themselves for Christ as Islamic extremist child-soldiers are for Allah. As vile as it gets, so far as I'm concerned.

God existing is equated to "pigs flying" in popular atheist culture.

What in the world is popular atheist culture?

Questioning that is atheist apostasy.

Apostasy from what...?

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Can you elaborate? Don't know what this refers too.


You mean genuine faith-healings? Is there any evidence of such a thing confirmed by medical science? I mean an actual 'the tumor was there one day, then it was just gone the next' miraculous faith-healing?


One of the most universally successful medications is the Placebo. I do believe the disconnect between mind and body is nowhere near as distinct as a lot of us suppose, and that a positive shift in attitude can have a profound impact on physical health. If you're given reason to believe you're getting better, you'll feel better, and feeling better in a lot of cases may be a massive step toward getting better. It's well known that people suffering from depression don't just experience it in their head-space; they can experience profound fatigue, complete loss of appetite, aches and pains, nausea and vertigo, all as a result of their emotional malaise. Inversely, an uplifting emotional experience or state could very reasonably result in significant improvements in health.


This is a fair analogy, and I honestly wholeheartedly agree with it. I do indeed believe- to an extent- that the difference between strong religious believers and those who find faith completely inaccessible is similar to the difference between the color-blind and the natural-sighted, and is likely tied to the body's production of DMT, a naturally occurring psychedelic present in all human beings. I personally believe that profound religious experience is a self-inflicted high; that the religious fits the faithful can work themselves up into is 'milking' this substance, but just like orgasms and laughing-fits, some people are more prone to them than others, while others still are completely incapable, by chance of birth.


The preacher in the video is borderline cynical in her efforts to work these kids up into fits in order to render them emotionally vulnerable and impressionable, with the clearly stated intention of recruiting them as 'soldiers' every bit as willing to kill themselves for Christ as Islamic extremist child-soldiers are for Allah. As vile as it gets, so far as I'm concerned.


What in the world is popular atheist culture?

Apostasy from what...?

This is something I experienced personally. Make of it what you choose...

This happened to me some years ago. I'm not going to press the point, but I leave it with you. You decide for yourself if the power of my belief made this happen.

My brother had a girlfriend when he was about 17 who had some very severe back trouble. She had a twisted spine and was given till her mid 20s before she would wind up in a wheelchair. She lived a few hours away from us and had come to visit with her friend for the weekend. That particular weekend Jim Sepulvida was sharing his experiences at an auditorum near to us and we had all wanted to hear him speak so we went.

Just to mention, this was 25 years ago and Jim is no longer with us but I found a YouTube video of his testimony.

Anyway, at the end of the meeting, he wentinto a time of praying for the sick. Various people had gone up to the front but she didn't. There was a pause and Jim stopped, saying that the Lord was telling him there were five women there with back trouble.

Four came forward...

Jim stopped and said there was still a woman with back trouble that needed to come forward. She told me afterwards she thought at that moment 'I'm 17 - that means I'm a girl - it's not me'

Jim paused, then said 'OK, will the GIRL with back trouble please come forward!'

She did.

No-one touched her and she was certainly not a regular at 'that' sort of church, but as Jim prayed for her she fell backwards and looked like she was fast asleep!!! When she came to after a little while, she was smiling from ear to ear and ran up the steps to us, then round the hall again... When she had calmed down a bit she told us that she had felt the love and presence of God as she lay there and had the physical sensation of her spine being knocked into line!

Returning the doctors she had a series of tests and was pronounced inexplicably healed.

 

[Vytas]

The preacher in the video is borderline cynical in her efforts to work these kids up into fits in order to render them emotionally vulnerable and impressionable, with the clearly stated intention of recruiting them as 'soldiers' every bit as willing to kill themselves for Christ as Islamic extremist child-soldiers are for Allah. As vile as it gets, so far as I'm concerned.

Do you perceive other people motivations with lightning speed and assurance always, or it's special treatment for believers? Kill myself in what sense? Any sort of suicide for any reason, is unacceptable... And im not sure i ever met "martyr material". You seem in all sincerity consider believers and faith itself as evil through and through. And i can see it's quite personal for you. Would love to know how it happened...

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

If you think about it, supernaturalism doesn't deny naturalism any more than red or blue deny green. I have received healings myself as well as other inexplicable experiences where Gods world has interfaced with mine.



Rather like a Venn diagram, these realities can cross over but than in no way weakens or comprosmises my confidence in to consistency of observational science. All it means is that the one who created it can supercede it.

 

[Etagloc]

What you're talking about is a real thing, Red Sky and actually contrary to a lot of peoples' assumptions- the reality of such phenomena is well documented.

But again- the issue I think.... we can find Christians who have encountered the supernatural. We can also find Muslims who have enountered it as well however.

What is to be made of that?

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

What you're talking about is a real thing, Red Sky and actually contrary to a lot of peoples' assumptions- the reality of such phenomena is well documented.

But again- the issue I think.... we can find Christians who have encountered the supernatural. We can also find Muslims who have enountered it as well however.

What is to be made of that?

As a Christian, one of the things I am called to be is a witness. What that means, if I were in a courtroom, would be to stand up and say what I have seen.

That's it ;-)

 

[Mr.Grieves]

This is something I experienced personally. Make of it what you choose...

This happened to me some years ago. I'm not going to press the point, but I leave it with you. You decide for yourself if the power of my belief made this happen.

My brother had a girlfriend when he was about 17 who had some very severe back trouble. She had a twisted spine and was given till her mid 20s before she would wind up in a wheelchair. She lived a few hours away from us and had come to visit with her friend for the weekend. That particular weekend Jim Sepulvida was sharing his experiences at an auditorum near to us and we had all wanted to hear him speak so we went.

Just to mention, this was 25 years ago and Jim is no longer with us but I found a YouTube video of his testimony.

Anyway, at the end of the meeting, he wentinto a time of praying for the sick. Various people had gone up to the front but she didn't. There was a pause and Jim stopped, saying that the Lord was telling him there were five women there with back trouble.

Four came forward...

Jim stopped and said there was still a woman with back trouble that needed to come forward. She told me afterwards she thought at that moment 'I'm 17 - that means I'm a girl - it's not me'

Jim paused, then said 'OK, will the GIRL with back trouble please come forward!'

She did.

No-one touched her and she was certainly not a regular at 'that' sort of church, but as Jim prayed for her she fell backwards and looked like she was fast asleep!!! When she came to after a little while, she was smiling from ear to ear and ran up the steps to us, then round the hall again... When she had calmed down a bit she told us that she had felt the love and presence of God as she lay there and had the physical sensation of her spine being knocked into line!

Returning the doctors she had a series of tests and was pronounced inexplicably healed.

Have you any record of this? Pre and post x-rays, doctors reports, etc.? Were you a child at the time?
The issue I have with these 'faith-healing' anecdotes is they rarely to never have any corroboration, which is strange considering such medical mysteries as the sudden recovery of a severe spinal condition would attract considerable attention. I've heard many stories like this, and I watched many stories like this play out on the boob-tube back in my Benny Hinn phase. If it were real though, if it truly worked, how could medicine even compete? Why aren't faith healers working at hospitals? Why are these powers so often imbued upon public speakers with venues to fill? And why are these men so often revealed as hucksters, charlatans, and snake-oil salesman?
I'm by no means calling you a liar, but is it possible you were mislead?

Do you perceive other people motivations with lightning speed and assurance always, or it's special treatment for believers? Kill myself in what sense? Any sort of suicide for any reason, is unacceptable... And im not sure i ever met "martyr material".

Did you watch the video to the end? I don't have to discern her motivations, she directly states them toward the end of the video, saying in no uncertain terms that she wants kids to be as willing to kill themselves for Christ as Islamic extremist child soldiers are for Allah. That's a near quotation.

You seem in all sincerity consider believers and faith itself as evil through and through. And i can see it's quite personal for you. Would love to know how it happened...

Pretty ironic that you'd accuse me of leaping to conclusions where peoples motivation is concerned and then come out with this. I'm not sure at all where you got this impression given the nature of the conversation up until this point, but no, I don't consider believers and faith as evil through and through. There are many aspects of faith and religion I find absolutely beautiful, such as...

What I view as evil through and through is the aggressive, abusive indoctrination of children for ANY purpose, be it religious, political, military, whatever. Teaching children is fine, but intentionally subjecting them to high-stress situations, frightening images and threats of extreme harm in order to work them up into tearful fits and then using this highly vulnerable, highly impressionable state to your advantage is sick and twisted in any context, be it a Bible-Camp or a Black Mass.

 

[Vytas]

Did you watch the video to the end? I don't have to discern her motivations, she directly states them toward the end of the video, saying in no uncertain terms that she wants kids to be as willing to kill themselves for Christ as Islamic extremist child soldiers are for Allah. That's a near quotation.

No to be honest i didn't, watched until i saw speaking in tongues was fake, at that moment i cared to know what have you seen. real thing or not...

Pretty ironic that you'd accuse me of leaping to conclusions where peoples motivation is concerned and then come out with this. I'm not sure at all where you got this impression given the nature of the conversation up until this point, but no, I don't consider believers and faith as evil through and through. There are many aspects of faith and religion I find absolutely beautiful, such as...

My bad i thought it was your own pov about killings suicides etc...I will have to agree with irony . Yeah religious institutions attract various people with various motives. Did priests become pedophiles, or pedophiles chose that profession for good access to kids?

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

@Mr.Grieves

"Have you any record of this? Pre and post x-rays, doctors reports, etc.? Were you a child at the time?"

I never came to faith because someone argued me into it! I respect your right to make your own mind up...

OK, reference this girl, I was 19, she was 18 and had been dating my brother. We both knew she had one leg two inches shorter than the other and that it was due to arthritis of the spine. She was under the supervision of the hospital and was having laser treatment to keep her mobile for longer.

She got healed that night, and her doctor was shocked but by no means incredulous as he was a Christian. She has been fine since, though we list touch when she and my brother split up.

Why this didn't make headline news I don't know, other than the fact that none of the other healings on my other family members did either ;-)

Why isn't everyone healed all the time? I don't know? Why isn't it like a magic formula? I have my ideas....

Anyway, to say more would be to overdo it. It amazed me and stayed with me and it was impossible. I'm fine with that though...

 

[Mr.Grieves]

My bad i thought it was your own pov about killings suicides etc..

No worries, it's easy to mistake people in conversations like this.

 

[Camidria]

I also want to share what happened with me. When I was 22 years, we went on a scouts camp and I was severely unfit, we went on this hike and I pulled a hamstring, it hurt like hell. I was basically immobile the next day, but that evening everybody was dancing and I wanted so much to join in. By then my leg felt better and I found if I just stretched it a bit between dancing it wouldn't hurt but as soon as I stopped moving the pain got progressively worse. I was an idiot for over exerting my leg because for the next four years whenever I went walking that hamstring would hurt so much that I couldn't walk for more than 15 minutes. Not even just in a mall!!

Enter my boyfriend (now husband) who loves hiking when I was around 26, by this time I was part of a church that was well balanced. There was a few people I knew that operated in the gift of healing, and as our relationship deepened the need to go hike and share in this passion was so important for me. I prayed and asked God to heal my hamstring as the doctors I went to said they couldn't do anything for me and I will have to live with it! (I waited too long to treat it as I had no medical when I was 22, and also I pretty much screwed up my leg - I was young and dumb!!)

I asked one of these people to pray for me after church, and a few weeks later our pastor said if we wanted healing we must put up our hands (he didn't call us forward). I was sort of doubting still at this stage that this healing will ever happen for me, I saw many friends receiving healing but never really thought it would happen to me. So I was very sceptical when I went for shopping after this and came home with no pain at all, I was sort of expecting the pain and brushed it off as a fluke. But every time after that when I went to the shops there was no pain, so I had to test this! A few weeks after this we went hiking again, and I thought today we will see if I am actually healed, after two hours I was pretty amazed that the intense pain that always came didn't come at all! I was elated, I cried and thanked God!! My boyfriend was also amazed and so happy as this meant we could go hiking more!

It's been another 5 years since then, happily hiking and walking everywhere ever since, the pain has never returned, I am forever grateful that God healed me!

 

[Aero]

Faith healing? Sometimes you have to look at all the empirical evidence. It really is more like an experiment than most would like to admit. A chemical process with some hidden components. Those hidden components being repressed symbols. So God could be in there, but we are looking for actual God in this scenario. Not symbolic God.

The parallels with alchemy are obvious here. The act of perfecting, or purifying oneself. And again most people are looking for an actual potion of immortality. Symbolic immortality isn't enough for the skeptics. People turn absolutely nothing into Gold all the time, and that's called magic in my book.

Lesser magic is like trickery, Greater magic comes from will. And the force of will gets shit done. This is the same type of stuff that's driven human survival, and innovation. It's not quite scientific, but it's almost science. This is how modern medicine evolved. And even today the scientific method revolves around experimentation, and observation.