Did Evolution Really Happen?

[Mr.Grieves]

That is a Stegosaurus, and who's to say the other creatures did not exist.

Without the artist's input, I can't imagine how you could make that claim. You can be as certain that that's a stegosaurus as an Alien-Origin enthusiast, someone who believes Aliens created us and have helped us along all our years, can be certain that this image

Depicts a helicopter, a Jestons style UFO, and a Star Wars Landspeeder. Scientists who study hieroglyphs say this is just a 'palimpsest' effect, as in they re-used this tablet years after it was originally carved, and the overlapping carvings combined with erosion resulted in what we modern folks can interpret as a helicopter, a Jetson's style UFO, and a Star Wars Landspeeder. If you believe in Alien Origin however, that explanation is unacceptable, and CLEARLY Egypt was ye-olde Tatooine.

IMO it takes a lot of faith to believe in genetic memory.

It takes no faith at all to believe in genetic or instinctual memory; it's demonstrably real, particularly in the animal kingdom. There are animals whom, with no parental guidance whatsoever, can migrate vast distances to ancestral feeding/breeding grounds, journeys they've never made before. There are animals/insects who are fully self-sufficient the very moment they're born, who hunt, who nest, who claim territories, who defend themselves and who reproduce all with no guidance and no example. They engage in these sometimes extremely complex behaviors not because they were taught or trained too, but because it's so deeply ingrained in their instinctual memory, wholly unclouded and unobstructed by the vagaries and complexity of our advanced brains. Check out these literally newborn lizards (and note the resemblance to your 'definitely a dinosaur!' sculpture!)

We possess instinctual memory, but it hasn't been the driving force for our survival for thousands and thousands of years now, and as with all things, 'Use it or Lose it.' One of the sacrifices our big, advanced brains impose upon us is an exceedingly muted/subdued instinct, and a complete lack of self-sufficiency where our young are concerned. Our brains need a huge amount of post-birth time to develop compared to other creatures, and our infants are among the most vulnerable on the planet for the longest stretch of time as a result.

Evolution gives people an excuse to say there is no God, and if there is no God then there is really no such thing as rules or right and wrong, so people can basically just do what they want.

Nonsense. I'd be seriously concerned about associating with anyone who legitimately felt the only reason they're not murdering, raping, stealing and lying their way through life is because the Bible and God tell them not too.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

@Mr.Grieves

"Depicts a helicopter, a Jestons style UFO, and a Star Wars Landspeeder. Scientists who study hieroglyphs say this is just a 'palimpsest' effect, as in they re-used this tablet years after it was originally carved, and the overlapping carvings combined with erosion resulted in what we modern folks can interpret as a helicopter, a Jetson's style UFO, and a Star Wars Landspeeder"

It's interesting you noticed this tablet. It raises more questions than it answers for the scientific materialist, I think...

If we look at the tablet as "data" the information we add is interpretation. The concept of extra-terrestrial life and the whole "Ancient Aliens" thing is very popular in the media. Under such a narrative, one might expect things like pyramids round the world, evidence of ancient knowledge and technologies etc.

From another perspective, ditching ET, inter-dimensional, hyper intelligent beings who many ancient cultures worshipped as gods but who the book of Enoch called "Watchers" may have left their signatures with the civilisations they were connected to. The possibility that these entities have a knowledge of technological possibilities would in no way surprise me.

As with creation and evolution, there is the raw data and there is the interpretation.

 

[Mr.Grieves]

From another perspective, ditching ET, inter-dimensional, hyper intelligent beings who many ancient cultures worshipped as gods but who the book of Enoch called "Watchers" may have left their signatures with the civilisations they were connected to. The possibility that these entities have a knowledge of technological possibilities would in no way surprise me.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

 

[Mr.Grieves]

The Movie-trailer voice in the first half-minute has me giggling already!

 

[Kung Fu]

The Movie-trailer voice in the first half-minute has me giggling already!

Why does it have you giggling?

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

The Movie-trailer voice in the first half-minute has me giggling already!

For what's it's worth, I agree - the content is better than the presentation though...

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Why does it have you giggling?

It's a little bit... "American"

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

In their book The Anthropic Cosmological Principle two prominent scientists Barrow and Tippler lay out ten steps that non-theistic evolutionary process would need to have gone through in order to bring about modern man. However, their calculations suggested that each of these steps were so improbable that even before it could ever possibly occur our sun would have ceased to exist and in the process obliterate Earth.

1) The development of the DNA-based genetic code.

2) The invention of aerobic respiration.

3) The invention of glucose fermentation to pyruvic acid is unique seme which evolved in bacteria and remained unmodified in all eukaryotes.

4) The origin of autotropic photosynthesis (oxygenic photosynthesis).

5) The origin of mitochondria: these are the bodies in the cytoplasm of eukaryotes wherein the energy molecule ATP is synthesized.

6) The formation of the centriole/kinetosome/undulipodia complex; such an event was essential to the evolution of the reproductive system of eukaryotes and of nerve cells.

7) The evolution of an eye precursor.

8) The development of an endoskeleton.

9) The development of chordates.

10) The evolution of Homo Sapiens in the chordate lineage.

The number that Barrow and Tippler calculated for atheistic evolution to have produced mankind purely by chance fell between the values of: 4^-180^110 000 and 4^-380^110 000.

http://reasonsforjesus.com/evolution-if-it-occurred-is-evidence-for-gods-existence/

 

[Camidria]

I agree with Red, the Book of Enoch explains that tablet and explains away the whole ancient alien theory, it helps you understand some of the Bible texts that people don't understand. I for one think pretty soon the 'evidence' for 'aliens' will be shown publicly to the whole world - this evidence actually testifies that our ancestors were technologically more advanced in the past before the flood under the guidence of the fallen angels. But it will be used to make people believe we were seeded here by ancient aliens...
There is a lot of proof out there that modern technology is rediscovered technology....

It takes no faith at all to believe in genetic or instinctual memory; it's demonstrably real, particularly in the animal kingdom.

Instictual or genetic memory that just happened randomly by trial and error, or can be pre programmed behaviours written into the DNA of animals by God. It really comes down to how you look at it... Have you ever done research on the millions of processes involved for any animal or human to conceive... the complexity of that one part of reproduction is so incredibly intricate. The possibility of that whole procedure just coming about by trial and error is so remote! You can even go to the cellular level of reproduction - it's not simple and easy, it's just as complex!
Everything you mentioned has been programmed into the instructions for every creature, their DNA - their 'book' of instructions for their behaviour, reproduction etc. If I told you wood and paint exploded and created a perfect story book you would laugh at me. But yet DNA that is vastly more complex just appeared like that out of nothing...

Nonsense. I'd be seriously concerned about associating with anyone who legitimately felt the only reason they're not murdering, raping, stealing and lying their way through life is because the Bible and God tell them not too.

The inherent goodness that we have in our lives is because there is a lawgiver namely God that shows us what is right and wrong. For those who choose against those laws they progress to the extremes you mentioned. Those who choose for those laws is good in a human sense. Those that have a real relationship with God like you would with another human, you can see something vastly different in their lives....

It looks like you have really not met people that have that relationship with God, rather you have met people trying out of their own strength to be good, and there is no difference between those people and the world.

 

[Mr.Grieves]

The number that Barrow and Tippler calculated for atheistic evolution to have produced mankind purely by chance fell between the values of: 4^-180^110 000 and 4^-380^110 000.

Through what remotely meaningful process could they have gone to calculate these odds? And what does 'purely by chance' mean to them?

I agree with Red, the Book of Enoch explains that tablet and explains away the whole ancient alien theory, it helps you understand some of the Bible texts that people don't understand.

So it can't be that the experts are right, and the tablet is just re-used and worn down, and people are reading too much into it? Landspeeders aren't even a real thing. Did The Watchers watch Star Wars, and like it so much that they left easter-eggs in the past? Don't get me wrong, good movies.

Instictual or genetic memory that just happened randomly by trial and error, or can be pre programmed behaviours written into the DNA of animals by God.

Did you know ducks are necrophiliacs? That Koala-Bears are vicious rapists? That all sorts of animals sometimes up and decide to eat their own young for no particular, discernible reason? Animals do strange, strange things... and not the sort of things you'd expect the Biblical Christian God to concoct.

Have you ever done research on the millions of processes involved for any animal or human to conceive... the complexity of that one part of reproduction is so incredibly intricate.

Indeed I have. I've learned, for instance, that there are an abundance of animals who don't need partners to reproduce; who can inseminate themselves with no need for 'male' or 'female'. There are animals who reproduce outside of their own bodies; laying down their eggs and waiting for a male to happen by and deposit his sperm, the two of them never even meeting. On the cellular level most organisms don't reproduce in the conventional sense; they just split themselves down the middle into two copies of the original.

If life were a pre-planned, thoroughly thought out, written-in-stone endeavor concocted by a supreme and flawless being with a penchant for order, obedience and purity, why is it such a random hodge-podge of creatures with such a random hodge-podge of behaviors, attributes and mechanisms for survival? Why is life in all its forms so exceedingly messy and strange?

Everything you mentioned has been programmed into the instructions for every creature, their DNA - their 'book' of instructions for their behaviour, reproduction etc.

But it hasn't. While SOME creatures are born with a seemingly complete understanding of their own situation and the requirements for their survival, many, many creatures aren't- and just like us need to be taught and trained by their parents. There's a very noticeable correlation between the intelligence of a creature and its need for guidance at birth, the smarter the animal typically the more guidance it needs.

If I told you wood and paint exploded and created a perfect story book you would laugh at me. But yet DNA that is vastly more complex just appeared like that out of nothing...

This supposes that DNA is perfect, that life is perfect, and we're perfect creatures. This isn't the case. The modern human genome is full of 'bum genes' that we have absolutely no use for, that serve absolutely no purpose. Genetic disorders are common, and the 'flaws' in our genes can predispose us toward diseases and conditions of all kinds. Our DNA is more a hastily scrawled diary we write as we go than a perfect and unchanging story-book authored at the dawn of time; it's the internal record of all that's come before, that also serves as the blueprint for what's to come in the future.. a blueprint that changes minutely with each new rendering.

To quote myself and Red from earlier in this thread:

Interesting response! One thing I was fascinated by when I studied it was how DNA is read and interpreted into proteins which in turn have intention (or appearance therof) behind them... It is one huge faith commitment to place the complexity of nature and the sophistication of systems under the direction of a blindfolded, mapless driver, but we each take such examples under advisement ;-)

I make no such commitment. Your hapless driver depends on the premise of an intended destination he somehow reached in spite of himself; that the world as we know it is like a paint-by-numbers masterwork that a donkey somehow perfectly slapped onto a canvas with its tail. What I have faith in is that one of a billion hapless drivers with no set destination is bound to eventually arrive somewhere; that with a billion blank canvases, that donkey is bound to eventually paint something.

 

[Camidria]

So it can't be that the experts are right, and the tablet is just re-used and worn down, and people are reading too much into it? Landspeeders aren't even a real thing. Did The Watchers watch Star Wars, and like it so much that they left easter-eggs in the past? Don't get me wrong, good movies.

Havn't you learned by now that we cannot trust the elite at all? That only the experts that fall in line with the propaganda that has been created for us will be heard and the rest will be silenced?

Did you know ducks are necrophiliacs? That Koala-Bears are vicious rapists? That all sorts of animals sometimes up and decide to eat their own young for no particular, discernible reason? Animals do strange, strange things... and not the sort of things you'd expect the Biblical Christian God to concoct.

The Bible does say that all flesh has been corrupted after the fall, that means animals too...

If life were a pre-planned, thoroughly thought out, written-in-stone endeavor concocted by a supreme and flawless being with a penchant for order, obedience and purity, why is it such a random hodge-podge of creatures with such a random hodge-podge of behaviors, attributes and mechanisms for survival? Why is life in all its forms so exceedingly messy and strange?

To show us that God can create however He wants, He loves to be unconventional - like recently I have realised that for many plants in the ocean there is a corresponding succulant plant that just looks the same in the desert, I see it that God wanted to show us He is not limited by anything. And people frequently use the 'sameness' angle to justify evolution, so God created all these weird and wonderful creatures to make scientists scratch their heads!

But it hasn't. While SOME creatures are born with a seemingly complete understanding of their own situation and the requirements for their survival, many, many creatures aren't- and just like us need to be taught and trained by their parents. There's a very noticeable correlation between the intelligence of a creature and its need for guidance at birth, the smarter the animal typically the more guidance it needs.

So? I said everything that you Mr Grieves mentioned has been programmed into the DNA like their instinct, every creature's book of instructions is different, will they be self sufficient from birth or go out on their own, will they stay in groups or be loners, will they have symbiosis or not. Like you have mentioned there is such weird and wonderful creatures, all unique in their ways!
For me this is just another way God has shown us about how creative He has been with creation!

This supposes that DNA is perfect, that life is perfect, and we're perfect creatures. This isn't the case. The modern human genome is full of 'bum genes' that we have absolutely no use for, that serve absolutely no purpose. Genetic disorders are common, and the 'flaws' in our genes can predispose us toward diseases and conditions of all kinds. Our DNA is more a hastily scrawled diary we write as we go than a perfect and unchanging story-book authored at the dawn of time; it's the internal record of all that's come before, that also serves as the blueprint for what's to come in the future.. a blueprint that changes minutely with each new rendering.

Again, after the fall all flesh was corrupted because of sin, humans have created many things in the past 400 years and also before the flood to make these things worse, the point is all flesh has been corrupted because of sin.

Mr. Grieves, I know deep down you have been through so much with people who didn't want to make an effort to answer you questions in the past. People that were pretenders and that just went with the program...

Consider this please - here I am and also others like Red Sky, we are from different continents (I am from South Africa). We have been through corrupted religious systems, we have been through tons of sound scientific research, we have a precious, tangible and real relationship with God where we hear Him, where miracles happen, where He uses us profoundly.
We are not closed off to the world and we have not been brainwashed, we have been where you are and back!

If you truly want deep down to be proven wrong then start reading the sources that we have given you, here is a link to many sources that can answer some of the questions you have been asking.

God wants a relationship with you, stop believing all the lies that the elite wants to show you - it is designed that you can get with their program. I challenge you to dig deeper!
When you do come to a space where you are ready to give God another change, send me a message, God has shown me why you where not able to hear His voice.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Havn't you learned by now that we cannot trust the elite at all? That only the experts that fall in line with the propaganda that has been created for us will be heard and the rest will be silenced?


The Bible does say that all flesh has been corrupted after the fall, that means animals too...


To show us that God can create however He wants, He loves to be unconventional - like recently I have realised that for many plants in the ocean there is a corresponding succulant plant that just looks the same in the desert, I see it that God wanted to show us He is not limited by anything. And people frequently use the 'sameness' angle to justify evolution, so God created all these weird and wonderful creatures to make scientists scratch their heads!


So? I said everything that you Mr Grieves mentioned has been programmed into the DNA like their instinct, every creature's book of instructions is different, will they be self sufficient from birth or go out on their own, will they stay in groups or be loners, will they have symbiosis or not. Like you have mentioned there is such weird and wonderful creatures, all unique in their ways!
For me this is just another way God has shown us about how creative He has been with creation!


Again, after the fall all flesh was corrupted because of sin, humans have created many things in the past 400 years and also before the flood to make these things worse, the point is all flesh has been corrupted because of sin.

Mr. Grieves, I know deep down you have been through so much with people who didn't want to make an effort to answer you questions in the past. People that were pretenders and that just went with the program...

Consider this please - here I am and also others like Red Sky, we are from different continents (I am from South Africa). We have been through corrupted religious systems, we have been through tons of sound scientific research, we have a precious, tangible and real relationship with God where we hear Him, where miracles happen, where He uses us profoundly.
We are not closed off to the world and we have not been brainwashed, we have been where you are and back!

If you truly want deep down to be proven wrong then start reading the sources that we have given you, here is a link to many sources that can answer some of the questions you have been asking.

God wants a relationship with you, stop believing all the lies that the elite wants to show you - it is designed that you can get with their program. I challenge you to dig deeper!
When you do come to a space where you are ready to give God another change, send me a message, God has shown me why you where not able to hear His voice.

Echoing your comments, sometimes your eyes need to adjust to see it...

 

[Mr.Grieves]

Havn't you learned by now that we cannot trust the elite at all?

Ah yes, the dreaded and nefarious scientific elite... just lookatem!

anyone who can make a living like that without severe back-pain is clearly evil incarnate.

The Bible does say that all flesh has been corrupted after the fall, that means animals too...

Seriously? All the nastiness ducks and koala bears get up to is ALSO Eve's fault? For the Mother of Humanity, the girl gets a lot of hate/blame.

And people frequently use the 'sameness' angle to justify evolution, so God created all these weird and wonderful creatures to make scientists scratch their heads!

Why does God want to confuse us?

I said everything that you Mr Grieves mentioned has been programmed into the DNA like their instinct

So a program, like in the memory of a computer, but in their genes..! Some kind of... genetic memory, right? What a clever notion. ;P

Mr. Grieves, I know deep down you have been through so much with people who didn't want to make an effort to answer you questions in the past. People that were pretenders and that just went with the program...

Consider this please - here I am and also others like Red Sky, we are from different continents (I am from South Africa). We have been through corrupted religious systems, we have been through tons of sound scientific research, we have a precious, tangible and real relationship with God where we hear Him, where miracles happen, where He uses us profoundly.
We are not closed off to the world and we have not been brainwashed, we have been where you are and back!

If you truly want deep down to be proven wrong then start reading the sources that we have given you, here is a link to many sources that can answer some of the questions you have been asking.

God wants a relationship with you, stop believing all the lies that the elite wants to show you - it is designed that you can get with their program. I challenge you to dig deeper!
When you do come to a space where you are ready to give God another change, send me a message, God has shown me why you where not able to hear His voice.

I appreciate the sentiment, I really do, but a lot of the things I presume you view as lies of the elite are to me established facts of reality, proven to me as thoroughly as such facts can be. Next to nothing at this point can convince me the world is only 5000 years old, or that men and dinosaurs chilled together. Next to nothing can convince me the world is flat, or that evolution isn't a thing and all creatures have always been as they are now, or that the outcome of death is eternal life in either torment or paradise depending on which Book/God I choose, with everyone reading the wrong book, all books being wrong in the opinions of their affiliate books, doomed to suffer forever.

I believe I'm too far gone, and the days of chasing the specter of faith are done for me. I went looking in earnest when I was young and bright-eyed, but came up empty often enough, and observed the harsher truths of the world in action enough to come to a conclusion. After all I've learned and seen and read, it would likely take a literal miracle to dissuade me of that conclusion, and alas, miracles seem conspicuously reserved for the faithful, in moments when none are looking.

Again, I appreciate the sentiment. Thank you for your kindness and decency!



P.S
A touch of irony, but your link to answers goes to a blank page.

 

[Camidria]

Ah yes, the dreaded and nefarious scientific elite... just lookatem!

anyone who can make a living like that without severe back-pain is clearly evil incarnate.


Seriously? All the nastiness ducks and koala bears get up to is ALSO Eve's fault? For the Mother of Humanity, the girl gets a lot of hate/blame.
Why does God want to confuse us?

So a program, like in the memory of a computer, but in their genes..! Some kind of... genetic memory, right? What a clever notion. ;P

I appreciate the sentiment, I really do, but a lot of the things I presume you view as lies of the elite are to me established facts of reality, proven to me as thoroughly as such facts can be. Next to nothing at this point can convince me the world is only 5000 years old, or that men and dinosaurs chilled together. Next to nothing can convince me the world is flat, or that evolution isn't a thing and all creatures have always been as they are now, or that the outcome of death is eternal life in either torment or paradise depending on which Book/God I choose, with everyone reading the wrong book, all books being wrong in the opinions of their affiliate books, doomed to suffer forever.

I believe I'm too far gone, and the days of chasing the specter of faith are done for me. I went looking in earnest when I was young and bright-eyed, but came up empty often enough, and observed the harsher truths of the world in action enough to come to a conclusion. After all I've learned and seen and read, it would likely take a literal miracle to dissuade me of that conclusion, and alas, miracles seem conspicuously reserved for the faithful, in moments when none are looking.

Again, I appreciate the sentiment. Thank you for your kindness and decency!



P.S
A touch of irony, but your link to answers goes to a blank page.

Tsk tsk let's try it again https://vigilantcitizenforums.com/threads/sources-that-helped-ground-my-faith-in-christianity-and-the-word-of-god.89/

 

[Camidria]

Again, I appreciate the sentiment. Thank you for your kindness and decency!

Likewise!

I believe I'm too far gone, and the days of chasing the specter of faith are done for me. I went looking in earnest when I was young and bright-eyed, but came up empty often enough, and observed the harsher truths of the world in action enough to come to a conclusion. After all I've learned and seen and read, it would likely take a literal miracle to dissuade me of that conclusion, and alas, miracles seem conspicuously reserved for the faithful, in moments when none are looking.

Just remember when you actually want answers and you are ready, then give me a shout as God has clearly told me what the problem is.
Best regards!

 

[Vytas]

I went looking in earnest when I was young and bright-eyed, but came up empty often enough, and observed the harsher truths of the world in action enough to come to a conclusion.

In other words you have chosen what you want to believe...

After all I've learned and seen and read, it would likely take a literal miracle to dissuade me of that conclusion

It's always a miracle.

 

[Mr.Grieves]

In other words you have chosen what you want to believe...

No, I've reached a conclusion I'd rather not have reached, but am unwilling to deceive myself about. Trust me, I'd prefer it if the world were a magical place, where miracles occur and benign powers watch over us. It's a great and highly reassuring story, understandable in its popularity, but a good story can't make the transition to reality just because I want it too, or because people who've been telling themselves and each other the story for generations insist it's not a story at all.

It's always a miracle.

Sometimes it's evil incarnate.

 

[Camidria]

Trust me, I'd prefer it if the world were a magical place, where miracles occur and benign powers watch over us.

Apart from my relationship with God, I have seen too many miracles to deny His existence. When you are in a church where God gets the glory and it's all about Him and not about everyone else, you see these things happening, and it is wonderful!

 

[Camidria]

Sometimes it's evil incarnate.

And yes, you have the devil that corrupts, and does false 'miracles' in the churches where its all about the people and not God....