Did Evolution Really Happen?

Lisa

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Well, it doesn't have to be god-like, actually, I believe many of us evolve quite well, we learn stuff, we do good things and everything.
How is that evolving? Isn't that what people do anyway, they grow up? Hardly seems like evolution to me and not god-like at all.
 

makeorbreak

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Evolution is a whole different thing from adaptation. Anyone who believes in the big bang theory must also believe in God. Let me explain. If all of these elements and chemicals were just floating around in the solar system and then, an explosion magically causes these elements and chemicals to combine, forming the earth and all of its continents, atmospheres and life forms, where did the big bang come from? How does it happen that an explosion that usually tear things apart suddenly create land masses, water and life forms which conveniently match up to each other for procreation? This does not happen without a master plan.

Go ahead, try it yourself. Put some chemicals in a bucket and ignite it. What will you create? It won't be life. Oh, and another thing, try creating oil yourself. I tried burying the neighbour's dog in the back yard and checked later but no oil. The neighbour wasn't happy either. It might have something to do with the fact their dog wasn't dead at the time but the point is that the experiment failed.

Back to evolution. Creatures may change but it's adaptation. A creature who is living in a dark environment will naturally adapt their vision requirements. An animal with limited food supplies in their environment will adapt to eat foods otherwise not acceptable to their digestive systems. Then, there are animals such as spiders and sharks which have not changed. Their basic body type has stayed the same. The different variations in each animal line are just that, variations designed in by God.

Who or what is God though? I'm not sure if I believe in a humanlike form living in the heavens, setting destinies for everyone. However, there is some power that has set the solar system and all of its intricacies into motion. It was not haphazard or some cosmic mistake.
 

mecca

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Oh, and another thing, try creating oil yourself. I tried burying the neighbour's dog in the back yard and checked later but no oil. The neighbour wasn't happy either. It might have something to do with the fact their dog wasn't dead at the time but the point is that the experiment failed.
Um... what?
 

mecca

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Anyone who believes in the big bang theory must also believe in God. Let me explain. If all of these elements and chemicals were just floating around in the solar system and then, an explosion magically causes these elements and chemicals to combine, forming the earth and all of its continents, atmospheres and life forms, where did the big bang come from? How does it happen that an explosion that usually tear things apart suddenly create land masses, water and life forms which conveniently match up to each other for procreation? This does not happen without a master plan.
I agree.
 

Mr.Grieves

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Evolution is a whole different thing from adaptation. Anyone who believes in the big bang theory must also believe in God.
First off, evolution and the big bang are completely separate subjects, and neither theory depends or relies on the other.
If all of these elements and chemicals were just floating around in the solar system and then, an explosion magically causes these elements and chemicals to combine, forming the earth and all of its continents, atmospheres and life forms, where did the big bang come from?
This is a major misconception about what the 'Big Bang' was theorized to be. First lets sort out the terminology. The 'Solar System' is comprised of those objects- planets, moons, asteroids, etc.- which circle or 'orbit' our sun, such as Mars, Neptune, Saturn, etc. The Solar System, while incredibly ancient, is not the beginning, and itself was forged over billions of years. The Solar System wasn't instantly created as we know it by the Big Bang, it formed over time in the aftermath of the Big Bang, which produced the rudimentary 'elements and chemicals' which, through further reactions and events, would eventually come to form matter as we know it.

The Big Bang isn't theorized to be the event that turned random elements and chemicals into the earth/the sun/etc., its the event which is theorized to have begun our Universe, long, long before the earth/the sun/etc existed. The Universe, based on this theory, is an event; basically a massive explosion. Much like smoke, fire, heat, shrapnel are the byproducts of explosions on our scale, space, time, matter and energy were the byproducts of the Big Bang, and we all exist within that ongoing aftermath. 'Where did the explosion come from?' is an incredibly good question, especially considering it's theorized to have taken place in the absence of space and time, but there are answers being sought out, many of which are incredibly difficult to wrap one's head around without a degree in quantum physics. It is, for example, theorized that 'Nothing' is just an abstraction, and doesn't exist in nature. That even i the absence of all space, time, matter and energy, massless but incredibly powerful and self-destructive sub-atomic particles are constantly winking in and out of existence and trying to tear themselves apart, and that a natural byproduct of this 'angry absence' is explosive reactions, 'Big Bangs' as it were. This theory suggests ours was not the first, last, or only big bang; that our universe is one of many, perhaps an infinite number.
Go ahead, try it yourself. Put some chemicals in a bucket and ignite it. What will you create? It won't be life.
It's true, you can't create life with a bucket-fire, but the big bang theory has nothing to do with the inception of life. You can, however, create diamonds with a really, really strong bucket-fire..
and suns are the biggest, most powerful bucket-fires of them all, able to completely transform elements. All of earth's precious metals- in fact most of the matter on earth in general is sun-forged.

Oh, and another thing, try creating oil yourself. I tried burying the neighbour's dog in the back yard and checked later but no oil. The neighbour wasn't happy either. It might have something to do with the fact their dog wasn't dead at the time but the point is that the experiment failed.
The bit about the dog was my attempt at humor but it shows how ridiculous science can sometimes be with their theories. Decaying dinosaurs cannot possibly become fossil fuels and chaos, as in the big bang theory, can only cause more chaos.
'Fossil Fuel' doesn't mean 'It's dinosaurs'. 'Fossil Fuel' refers to fossilized algae and plant-matter, most of it from long before dinosaurs or probably even animals as we know them were a thing. here's a little kids edu-video that should explain it.
Back to evolution. Creatures may change but it's adaptation. A creature who is living in a dark environment will naturally adapt their vision requirements.
In fact, creatures living in dark environments for generations upon generations go blind. Eventually, over enough generations, they lose their eyes outright. If light began finding its way into that environment again, and the blind creatures were able to survive, many generations later they'd likely start developing eyes again. Adaptation and evolution are almost synonymous. Evolution is just adaptation in the long term.

Then, there are animals such as spiders and sharks which have not changed. Their basic body type has stayed the same.
Animals who have stayed the same over hundreds of thousands, even millions of years have done so because they've been successful just the way they are. A misconception about evolution is that everything is evolving towards something; that it's some kind of race to a 'perfect' or 'higher' state of being, that humanity is winning this race, and in a few hundred-thousand years we'll all be perfect entities comprised of pure light or something. That's absolutely not the case. Evolution has no ultimate destination, and there is no 'final form' to be achieved.
 

Red Sky at Morning

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First off, evolution and the big bang are completely separate subjects, and neither theory depends or relies on the other.
This is a major misconception about what the 'Big Bang' was theorized to be. First lets sort out the terminology. The 'Solar System' is comprised of those objects- planets, moons, asteroids, etc.- which circle or 'orbit' our sun, such as Mars, Neptune, Saturn, etc. The Solar System, while incredibly ancient, is not the beginning, and itself was forged over billions of years. The Solar System wasn't instantly created as we know it by the Big Bang, it formed over time in the aftermath of the Big Bang, which produced the rudimentary 'elements and chemicals' which, through further reactions and events, would eventually come to form matter as we know it.

The Big Bang isn't theorized to be the event that turned random elements and chemicals into the earth/the sun/etc., its the event which is theorized to have begun our Universe, long, long before the earth/the sun/etc existed. The Universe, based on this theory, is an event; basically a massive explosion. Much like smoke, fire, heat, shrapnel are the byproducts of explosions on our scale, space, time, matter and energy were the byproducts of the Big Bang, and we all exist within that ongoing aftermath. 'Where did the explosion come from?' is an incredibly good question, especially considering it's theorized to have taken place in the absence of space and time, but there are answers being sought out, many of which are incredibly difficult to wrap one's head around without a degree in quantum physics. It is, for example, theorized that 'Nothing' is just an abstraction, and doesn't exist in nature. That even i the absence of all space, time, matter and energy, massless but incredibly powerful and self-destructive sub-atomic particles are constantly winking in and out of existence and trying to tear themselves apart, and that a natural byproduct of this 'angry absence' is explosive reactions, 'Big Bangs' as it were. This theory suggests ours was not the first, last, or only big bang; that our universe is one of many, perhaps an infinite number.

It's true, you can't create life with a bucket-fire, but the big bang theory has nothing to do with the inception of life. You can, however, create diamonds with a really, really strong bucket-fire..
and suns are the biggest, most powerful bucket-fires of them all, able to completely transform elements. All of earth's precious metals- in fact most of the matter on earth in general is sun-forged.



'Fossil Fuel' doesn't mean 'It's dinosaurs'. 'Fossil Fuel' refers to fossilized algae and plant-matter, most of it from long before dinosaurs or probably even animals as we know them were a thing. here's a little kids edu-video that should explain it.

In fact, creatures living in dark environments for generations upon generations go blind. Eventually, over enough generations, they lose their eyes outright. If light began finding its way into that environment again, and the blind creatures were able to survive, many generations later they'd likely start developing eyes again. Adaptation and evolution are almost synonymous. Evolution is just adaptation in the long term.


Animals who have stayed the same over hundreds of thousands, even millions of years have done so because they've been successful just the way they are. A misconception about evolution is that everything is evolving towards something; that it's some kind of race to a 'perfect' or 'higher' state of being, that humanity is winning this race, and in a few hundred-thousand years we'll all be perfect entities comprised of pure light or something. That's absolutely not the case. Evolution has no ultimate destination, and there is no 'final form' to be achieved.
You summarise the current Big Bang and evolutionary narrative well, including the quantum / multiverse hypothesis.

Do you really believe it? Just wondering if you have faith in the theory?
 

makeorbreak

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Aren't you glad God instilled in you the ability to think and reason so you can attempt to explain His plans?
 

Red Sky at Morning

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Truthfully, talking about origins is rather like trying to eat a watermelon with no cutlery.

To get anywhere with it, you need to chop it up and chew it a bit...
 

Mr.Grieves

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You summarise the current Big Bang and evolutionary narrative well, including the quantum / multiverse hypothesis.

Do you really believe it? Just wondering if you have faith in the theory?
'Believe' is a strong word, I'd go with 'entertain'. It strikes me as reasonable, plausible, and intriguing, which is more than I can say for 'Because an all-powerful dude said so.'
 

elsbet

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'Believe' is a strong word, I'd go with 'entertain'. It strikes me as reasonable, plausible, and intriguing, which is more than I can say for 'Because an all-powerful dude said so.'
Well, an all-powerful *supernatural* dude.

Do you believe in the supernatural? Just curious. :)
 

Mr.Grieves

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Both sides could be right. A lot of scientists believe in a higher power than themselves.
Indeed they do, and I can by no means claim to know as a certainty that they're wrong.
It's important though to know what it is you're dismissing before you dismiss something. Concepts like the big bang and evolution are challenging to be sure, but it's better to accept the challenge and wrap as much of your brains around them as you can before deciding either way. You can far more reasonably and intelligently confront scientific theory you doubt if you make an effort to learn/understand that theory, as Red Sky often demonstrates.
Do you believe in the supernatural? Just curious. :)
I believe there may be aspects of nature we don't yet understand and thus could be perceived as 'super', but no, I don't believe in the 'supernatural' in the traditional sense, particularly in relation to ghosts/afterlives/magic.
 

Red Sky at Morning

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I am interested in the concept of "narrative" as applied to scientific observations. An example of this might be in the names of constellations. We have a group of stars and that grouping has an image drawn around it to interpret it as a story.

In the same way, there is the data, and there is the interpretation. I think anyone looking at evidence for the past would benefit in being "bi-lingual" in the question of creation or evolution. Properly understanding the narrative even of the alternate view does nothing to diminish the evidence.

The "Scopes" trial involved a teacher being prosecuted for teaching evolution at school. This could be argued as a case of one narrative being afraid of another. As more information has emerged, the alternate (original) view of a created universe has seen a resurgence, but now the scientific establishment does not wish that narrative to be applied to the data.

This is a long way of saying that it pays to examine evidence and come to a reasoned conclusion. @Mr.Grieves - you impress me by understanding the difference between "believe" and "entertain"...
 
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