Debates

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#22
I think debate and conversation on forums often fails because people are not particularly self-aware when it comes to world-view. Like @Maes17 I have spoken with people with all kinds of views over the years. I think it is very healthy to reflect on what you know and how you know it. Good debate is like submitting a paper you may have written to the public space for peer review. It carries risk of being misunderstood but can also help you crystallise your own ideas as others can offer the service of knocking the rough edges off your thinking.

When it comes to debate, a simple pattern of thought often causes a breakdown of communication.

Tom (not his real name) might be debating on a forum with Daisy (not her real name either). Using letters to denote the progression of ideas, Tom and Daisy might actually agree about point A but be talking about point D.

The problem is that they have slightly different interpretations of B, leading to entirely different positions on C, which in turn leads to Tom accusing Daisy of being a shill and Daisy blocking Tom and creating threads about how stupid people who take Tom's view on point D are!!!!

The moral of the tale?

When Tom and Daisy started talking, they would have been better first grounding their discussion on mutual respect and on how the agreed about A. As everything for them hinges on point B, as all conclusions are derived from that fork in the road, this would be the best area to debate (for them).

Why? Because you are not just debating about the ideas, but with the people who have those ideas.
Brilliant! Sums up most of what I think about the enmity that stems from discussions most of the time on here! Very beautiful analysis!
 





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#23
It is part of the annual Melbourne comedy festival. This is the most recent one. Mature audience only.


On Youtube search 2018 Melbourne comedy festival debate for next sections.
Lol, this is hilarious. Thanks so much for this. I watched for two minutes but it kinda puts me out of the mood I'm usually in, which is sadness, so I stop here. Thanks a lot though Jo.
 





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#24
^ P.s. A discussion of world and languages and radiometric dating here hopefully illustrate the point above:-

This is beautiful and everything but I stopped where it mentions that God Took a rest. Most Exalted Is He Above Being subjected to fatigue or any other deficiency. Thanks nonetheless RSAM.
 





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#25
Lol, this is hilarious. Thanks so much for this. I watched for two minutes but it kinda puts me out of the mood I'm usually in, which is sadness, so I stop here. Thanks a lot though Jo.
Why do you want to remain in sadness?

I agree Australian humour should be taken in small doses for those who don't have a mental anti-profanity/ anti-God filter. It is quite similar to British humour but has a lot of coarseness added.
 





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#26
This is beautiful and everything but I stopped where it mentions that God Took a rest. Most Exalted Is He Above Being subjected to fatigue or any other deficiency. Thanks nonetheless RSAM.
Why do you suppose God "rested" on the seventh day @yannick - do you believe the Bible is inferring that the creation wiped God out and he had to lie down for a day? Or... just possibly, was the rest put in place as a pattern for us?
 





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#27
Why do you want to remain in sadness?

I agree Australian humour should be taken in small doses for those who don't have a mental anti-profanity/ anti-God filter. It is quite similar to British humour but has a lot of coarseness added.
It's super nice, don't get me wrong but I try to live according to what is narrated with a sound chain of transmission that our Beloved Messenger (peace and blessings be upon him) said, “Do not laugh too much, for verily excessive laughter kills the heart.”

[Bukhari, Adab al-Mufrad; Sunan Tirmidhi; Sunan Ibn Maja; Musnad Ahmad]

And in some narrations, there is an addition, “For verily excessive laughter kills the heart and removes the light of one’s face,” or in another version, “For verily excessive laughter corrupts the heart.”

[Bayhaqi, Shu’ab]

I wanna feel sad for the people who are going to abide in hell eternally, I guess they must be those people who indulge in immoral acts and those who worship the devil and who are nevertheless living on this Earth as though it was Paradise itself while at the same time disbelieving in The Almighty, corrupting their own souls beyond repair (maybe?), and being cruel to others only to satisfy their desires.
 





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#28
Why do you suppose God "rested" on the seventh day @yannick - do you believe the Bible is inferring that the creation wiped God out and he had to lie down for a day? Or... just possibly, was the rest put in place as a pattern for us?
Thank you for the enlightenment!

Nonetheless, it isn't easily understood during this time that it's meant to be understood the way you just told me, which is that we are the ones who need to rest and not God. Consider what the Bible of the era after Jesus says as in The Verse of The Throne or The Ayat Al Kursi

Ayat Al Kursiyy.png
 





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#29
After the era of Jesus came the era of Muhammad (Peace and Blessings be upon both of them and all the other Messengers and Prophets).

Prophets.jpg
 





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#30
It's super nice, don't get me wrong but I try to live according to what is narrated with a sound chain of transmission that our Beloved Messenger (peace and blessings be upon him) said, “Do not laugh too much, for verily excessive laughter kills the heart.”

[Bukhari, Adab al-Mufrad; Sunan Tirmidhi; Sunan Ibn Maja; Musnad Ahmad]

And in some narrations, there is an addition, “For verily excessive laughter kills the heart and removes the light of one’s face,” or in another version, “For verily excessive laughter corrupts the heart.”

[Bayhaqi, Shu’ab]

I wanna feel sad for the people who are going to abide in hell eternally, I guess they must be those people who indulge in immoral acts and those who worship the devil and who are nevertheless living on this Earth as though it was Paradise itself while at the same time disbelieving in The Almighty, corrupting their own souls beyond repair (maybe?), and being cruel to others only to satisfy their desires.
There is enough to bring sorrow into a person's life without intentionally causing it like some type of penance. Depression is quite paralysing if you stay in that state for too long. I know that too well.

If you must pray to your God then pray for positive change for the world, loved ones, non-believers etc. A dead person's torment in Hell will not be improved by your thoughts of pity for them unfortunately.

philippians 4:8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.
9 Those things, which ye have both learned, and received, and heard, and seen in me, do: and the God of peace shall be with you.
 





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#31
I think debate and conversation on forums often fails because people are not particularly self-aware when it comes to world-view. Like @Maes17 I have spoken with people with all kinds of views over the years. I think it is very healthy to reflect on what you know and how you know it. Good debate is like submitting a paper you may have written to the public space for peer review. It carries risk of being misunderstood but can also help you crystallise your own ideas as others can offer the service of knocking the rough edges off your thinking.

When it comes to debate, a simple pattern of thought often causes a breakdown of communication.

Tom (not his real name) might be debating on a forum with Daisy (not her real name either). Using letters to denote the progression of ideas, Tom and Daisy might actually agree about point A but be talking about point D.

The problem is that they have slightly different interpretations of B, leading to entirely different positions on C, which in turn leads to Tom accusing Daisy of being a shill and Daisy blocking Tom and creating threads about how stupid people who take Tom's view on point D are!!!!

The moral of the tale?

When Tom and Daisy started talking, they would have been better first grounding their discussion on mutual respect and on how the agreed about A. As everything for them hinges on point B, as all conclusions are derived from that fork in the road, this would be the best area to debate (for them).

Why? Because you are not just debating about the ideas, but with the people who have those ideas.
Exactly
 





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#32
I'm guilty of misinterpreting things at times too.
I come back and read extensively before I make a reply.

It's really hard to know how we interpret things. That's why I go into arguments or debates with an open mind. As we all try to have a justified approach but different paths to the approach which can throw someone off.
 





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#33
There is enough to bring sorrow into a person's life without intentionally causing it like some type of penance. Depression is quite paralysing if you stay in that state for too long. I know that too well.

If you must pray to your God then pray for positive change for the world, loved ones, non-believers etc. A dead person's torment in Hell will not be improved by your thoughts of pity for them unfortunately.

philippians 4:8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.
9 Those things, which ye have both learned, and received, and heard, and seen in me, do: and the God of peace shall be with you.
For sure, though it's also quite spiritually healing to be able to worry like for 15 minutes about those who are doomed to hell and try to think of a way out for them.
 





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#35
Funny thing: In portuguese "debate" can both mean debate as in debating but it could also mean "convulsion".

Ele está debatendo is both "he is debating" but also "he is convulsing"
Now that's a surprise! Thanks for commenting! I am indeed honored! ^_^

convulsion

/kənˈvʌlʃ(ə)n/

noun

a sudden, violent, irregular movement of the body, caused by involuntary contraction of muscles and associated especially with brain disorders such as epilepsy, the presence of certain toxins or other agents in the blood, or fever in children.

"toxic side effects like convulsions"

synonyms: fit, seizure, paroxysm, spasm, attack, muscular contractions

a violent social or political upheaval.

"the convulsions of 1939–45"

synonyms: upheaval, eruption, turmoil, turbulence, disruption, agitation, disturbance, unrest, disorder, furore, upset, tumult, chaos

@elsbet , I just remembered you like Hinata! :)
 





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#36
I'm guilty of misinterpreting things at times too.
I come back and read extensively before I make a reply.

It's really hard to know how we interpret things. That's why I go into arguments or debates with an open mind. As we all try to have a justified approach but different paths to the approach which can throw someone off.
I'm just the same as you.

But you, Sir, seem to be very wise!
 





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#37
Thank you so much for your concern. The thing, with God, even that depression becomes enjoyable! God Is The Greatest Indeed and In Deeds.

Job
26:14


'And these are but the outer fringe of his works; how faint the whisper we hear of him! Who then can understand the thunder of his power?'

@DesertRose I know you've an eye for true beauty, Alhamdulillah!

GIC_front_1024x1024.jpg
 





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