Debatable Questions About God, Satan, Etc

[Valerian]

So I have some debatable questions I would like to bring up because I'm noticing some loop holes in the story/timeline of Creationism and the concept of Evil's Origin. Here are some Questions:

1. How did Satan get tempt Adam and Eve to eat the apple if he was kicked out & banned from Heaven - How did he get back in? I question people this all the time, and regardless of religion, no one answers it and just dodges the question.

2. The creation and start of Evil, a lot of people, especially Christians, believe that Evil/sin exists because of Satan, but that obviously doesnt make sense because Satan wasn't always evil. Christians believe he was an angel who disobeyed God, and Muslims believe he was a Jinn who worshipped god so much that God allowed him out of any jinn in existence to have access into heaven among the angels, which he later than disobeyed God by not bowing to adam out of pride, & you know the rest.

But Evil existed before Satan was "evil", and if god is the creator of everything, that means he also created evil, but if god is fully benevolent, how did he create the concept evil?

3. Religion states that God is 100% against any type of sexual deviation, Whether it's sexual acts like homosexuality, or sex changes. But then explain intersex humans? 1 in every 2000 babies (which is actually a lot btw), is born with both a male & female reproductive organ. Why would God create humans that way? They are physically born that way, it isn't some "mental issue" like a lot of religious people say about being gay etc. God literally created them as both a male & female which contradicts everything religion states on how God views deviations especially regarding sexuality.


People are too busy trying to find contradictions in the most stupid areas like whether jesus wore wooden sandles when the bible actually says he was bare footed etc, when instead they miss the extremely obvious ones in front of us.

 

[rainerann]

So I have some debatable questions I would like to bring up because I'm noticing some loop holes in the story/timeline of Creationism and the concept of Evil's Origin. Here are some Questions:

1. How did Satan get tempt Adam and Eve to eat the apple if he was kicked out & banned from Heaven - How did he get back in? I question people this all the time, and regardless of religion, no one answers it and just dodges the question.

2. The creation and start of Evil, a lot of people, especially Christians, believe that Evil/sin exists because of Satan, but that obviously doesnt make sense because Satan wasn't always evil. Christians believe he was an angel who disobeyed God, and Muslims believe he was a Jinn who worshipped god so much that God allowed him out of any jinn in existence to have access into heaven among the angels, which he later than disobeyed God by not bowing to adam out of pride, & you know the rest.

But Evil existed before Satan was "evil", and if god is the creator of everything, that means he also created evil, but if god is fully benevolent, how did he create the concept evil?

3. Religion states that God is 100% against any type of sexual deviation, Whether it's sexual acts like homosexuality, or sex changes. But then explain intersex humans? 1 in every 2000 babies (which is actually a lot btw), is born with both a male & female reproductive organ. Why would God create humans that way? They are physically born that way, it isn't some "mental issue" like a lot of religious people say about being gay etc. God literally created them as both a male & female which contradicts everything religion states on how God views deviations especially regarding sexuality.


People are too busy trying to find contradictions in the most stupid areas like whether jesus wore wooden sandles when the bible actually says he was bare footed etc, when instead they miss the extremely obvious ones in front of us.

Satan tempted Adam and Eve through the serpent. The Garden of Eden was not in Heaven according to the second day of creation, which says the waters were separated from the waters. Heaven is above. Earth is below.

Evil came into being because of Satan's disobedience. Therefore, rebellion against God is the original sin and Satan is the first to rebel against God, which is why evil exists because of Satan because there was no one else who rebelled against God before this.

Intersex humans can be explained as part of a genetic mutation, so from a religious aspect we would need to explain the presence of genetic mutations. The Bible does not include a discussion on how these changes came into being. I don't know whether it is part of the reproductive process because I don't know when the reproductive process began according to the Bible.

We could discuss this from a scientific perspective with the information we have now. This would be better I think. You would have to look at this from a scientific perspective and try to prove that this sort of genetic mutation is beneficial or not. I would suggest that it is not beneficial in the long run because of how it could affect testosterone and estrogen levels. This is why this trait has not become dominant and appears to be a recessive mutation. However, this is a very superficial statement that I am making because I haven't really looked into the subject.

However, the point of the Bible is not to explain everything. The point of the Bible is to explain how sin and evil came into the world, how it has affected the world, and how we can know God despite living in this evil world.

 

[Todd]

1) The earth was created long before the story in Genesis chapter one. The earth was the place that Satan was cast down to when he was expelled from heaven. Adam and Eve were not in heaven when Satan lead them astray. The "creation" story in Genesis is simply the story of how God re-created the earth after it was in chaos because of Satan and 1/3 of the angels being exiled to the earth. God's intent was for man to take dominion over the earth and redeem it. Adam and Eve instead fell for the same lie that 1/3 of the angels did. Fortunately, Jesus the Messiah, the second Adam will return and rule and reign for 1000 years and show us all what God originally intended.

2.) Evil is simply the result when anybody or anything is not in submission to God. God has allowed creation and man to fall into a state that is not submitted to him. It is only during the temporal ages of creation that this will be the case. When individuals turn to God and submit to him at any level, he intervenes and showers his grace on our situations and circumstances. Once God reconciles all creation back to him, mankind, the angels, powers and principalities will never doubt or question the holiness and goodness of God agian. We will never be tempted to rebel against him again, because we will have the memory of what life on this planet was like when God let us think we were in control.

3.) See my post in the thread Trans? https://vigilantcitizenforums.com/threads/trans.1120/
Sexual deviation and even those born as intersex are simply a result of the fallen, sinful world we temporarily exist in. It was never God's intention for anyone to be born that way, or to become that way whether by choice or circumstance/environment. What is important is that God is always waiting for us to come to him and submit to his ways. I know God is capable of changing an individuals heart and how they feel/view themsleves. Can God do a miracle and change a gay to a hetrosexual? I believe he is capable, but that doesn't mean he always will. Can someone struggle with sexual identity and still have relationship with God, even if their sexual struggles do not fit perfectly in the will of God? Of course. I've never met anyone who has every bit of their life in perfect and complete submission to God, so who am I to say someone with sexual deviation issues can't have a level of trust or relationship with God?

 

[KoncreteMind]

To answer the second question:

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

God created evil and good so evil and good have to come from Him. Even in the book of Job, before Satan could do anything negative to Job he had to check in with God which shows (imo) that everything that happens, good AND bad, is because of Gods will. There's no way you can have an omnipotent Creator than ascribe the creation or source of evil to some other creation. It makes no sense but again, my view.

 

[Kung Fu]

So I have some debatable questions I would like to bring up because I'm noticing some loop holes in the story/timeline of Creationism and the concept of Evil's Origin. Here are some Questions:

1. How did Satan get tempt Adam and Eve to eat the apple if he was kicked out & banned from Heaven - How did he get back in? I question people this all the time, and regardless of religion, no one answers it and just dodges the question.

2. The creation and start of Evil, a lot of people, especially Christians, believe that Evil/sin exists because of Satan, but that obviously doesnt make sense because Satan wasn't always evil. Christians believe he was an angel who disobeyed God, and Muslims believe he was a Jinn who worshipped god so much that God allowed him out of any jinn in existence to have access into heaven among the angels, which he later than disobeyed God by not bowing to adam out of pride, & you know the rest.

But Evil existed before Satan was "evil", and if god is the creator of everything, that means he also created evil, but if god is fully benevolent, how did he create the concept evil?

3. Religion states that God is 100% against any type of sexual deviation, Whether it's sexual acts like homosexuality, or sex changes. But then explain intersex humans? 1 in every 2000 babies (which is actually a lot btw), is born with both a male & female reproductive organ. Why would God create humans that way? They are physically born that way, it isn't some "mental issue" like a lot of religious people say about being gay etc. God literally created them as both a male & female which contradicts everything religion states on how God views deviations especially regarding sexuality.


People are too busy trying to find contradictions in the most stupid areas like whether jesus wore wooden sandles when the bible actually says he was bare footed etc, when instead they miss the extremely obvious ones in front of us.

The reason none of it makes sense is because you're looking at it from a Christian perspective. Everything about Christianity is confusing.

 

[Valerian]

The reason none of it makes sense is because you're looking at it from a Christian perspective. Everything about Christianity is confusing.

That is why the above posters didnt make sense either lmao.

But even in an islamic point of view, these questions arent answered, and islam generally makes A LOT more sense than Christianity (mainly because islam wasnt altered through the centuries)

 

[Damien50]

@Todd
Bravo! Bravisimo!

@Valerian

What would lead you to believe that God has his hand in the genetic intermingling of everyone ever born?

 

[Camidria]

That is why the above posters didnt make sense either lmao.

But even in an islamic point of view, these questions arent answered, and islam generally makes A LOT more sense than Christianity (mainly because islam wasnt altered through the centuries)

Right, the Bible such as the Niv, Nlt and a few others was translated out of the Alexandrian, Vaticanus and Sinaticus codexes that was altered by the Gnostics. The King James was translated from the Septuagint (the first Greek Bible) That was not altered.

The Septuagint was translated out of more than 6000 manuscripts of scripture that were all meticulously copied and were all the same. When the Septuagint was compared a few years ago to the dead sea scrolls that was found in the early 1900`s it was found that there wasn't any difference between the two.

The Dead sea scrolls are older than the Septuagint...

There is a lot more proof in this video with sources etc. of the Bible's authenticity as well as a lot of other things that is quite mind blowing. So if you are really interested in truth then watch it through.

People always want to debate and when you give them proof they would rather criticise you as a person and what you say than take 2 hours of their life to find out the truth..

 

[Kung Fu]

Right, the Bible such as the Niv, Nlt and a few others was translated out of the Alexandrian, Vaticanus and Sinaticus codexes that was altered by the Gnostics. The King James was translated from the Septuagint (the first Greek Bible) That was not altered.

Right, because we're supposed to throw all those Bibles away even though we have original Greek manuscripts backing them up and instead take the KJB as the truth when this "original" Bible, which the KJB was copied from, doesn't even exist. It's illogical and backwards posts like this which allow scholars to rip you guys a new one every time.

 

[Kung Fu]

That is why the above posters didnt make sense either lmao.

But even in an islamic point of view, these questions arent answered, and islam generally makes A LOT more sense than Christianity (mainly because islam wasnt altered through the centuries)

Which part of it doesn't make sense from an Islamic viewpoint if I may ask?

 

[Karlysymon]

To answer the second question:

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

God created evil and good so evil and good have to come from Him. Even in the book of Job, before Satan could do anything negative to Job he had to check in with God which shows (imo) that everything that happens, good AND bad, is because of Gods will. There's no way you can have an omnipotent Creator than ascribe the creation or source of evil to some other creation. It makes no sense but again, my view.

I understand, its your pov. In that case, as iam sure you believe in God, it is a gross injustice on His part to punish people for evil (think lake of fire). Its unfair for Him to ask us to overcome our evil nature while He retains His.
Most religions have this as a running theme, there's some sort of punishment for evil doers, yet above is/are god(s) who is/are both good and evil but expects his/their creation to strive to be only good. Totally unfair

The claim He makes throught Scripture is; Iam a God of Justice....Justice and righteousness are the foundation of My throne...etc. So He ought to be just in His expectations.

You also have to realise that if He holds a dual nature both (good and bad) have to be exercised, one cannot remain dormant. If the evil in the world now is blamed on 'His evil-self', then the whole Paradise promise is a lie because that self will rear its head. In otherwords, we should just expect Earth 2.0.

So i will stick to what Scripture says....I the Lord do not change....In Him is no darkness at all....In Him, there is no shadow of turning....He takes no pleasure in evil
[Malachi 3:6, 1 John 1:5, James 1:17, Psalm 5:4 ]

Oh! One last thing. If He possesses a dual nature, i (as a christian) wonder why He wasted His time dying on the cross, because that was meant to solve the problem of sin/evil.

 

[KoncreteMind]

I understand, its your pov. In that case, as iam sure you believe in God, it is a gross injustice on His part to punish people for evil (think lake of fire). Its unfair for Him to ask us to overcome our evil nature while He retains His.
Most religions have this as a running theme, there's some sort of punishment for evil doers, yet above is/are god(s) who is/are both good and evil but expects his/their creation to strive to be only good. Totally unfair

The claim He makes throught Scripture is; Iam a God of Justice....Justice and righteousness are the foundation of My throne...etc. So He ought to be just in His expectations


You also have to realise that if He holds a dual nature both (good and bad) have to be exercised, one cannot remain dormant. If the evil in the world now is blamed on 'His evil-self', then the whole Paradise promise is a lie because that self will rear its head. In otherwords, we should just expect Earth 2.0.

So i will stick to what Scripture says....I the Lord do not change....In Him is no darkness at all....In Him, there is no shadow of turning....He takes no pleasure in evil
[Malachi 3:6, 1 John 1:5, James 1:17, Psalm 5:4 ]



Oh! One last thing. If He possesses a dual nature, i (as a christian) wonder why He wasted His time dying on the cross, because that was meant to solve the problem of sin/evil.

I definitely would NEVER say or insinuate that the Most High is evil. But He (well according to whoever wrote Isaiah 45:7) said that He creates good and evil. In one of the chronicles/kings books He sends an evil spirit to possess Saul. In the book of Job, before satan could take away any of Job's possessions/health/kids/wife etc... he had to get permission from God. So in your view, how doesnt this support that God controls good and evil? How doesnt Isaiah 45:7 support the conclusion that God created both good and evil? Heck, where did the tree of knowledge of good AND evil come from if not by His hand?

I think God created good and evil, told us the rewards/consequences of choosing one or the other, then gave us a choice to pick one or the other. I dont think He should be "blamed" because people chose evil, do you? I mean, we dont blame God for Adam and Eve's decision to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil though the tree could only exist because of God right? I think this is kinda similar to how people will say God is all love, though in the OT, He clearly and repeatedly states He hates certain things/people/nations. But some people choose to take certain verses over others. I do too, but I give God's words precedence over the words of man, or even "Jesus" since he said the One that sent him was greater than him. So if He said He hates, then He has hate no matter what 1 John says about Him being all love. Or if He said He creates/controls evil, then I take that to mean He creates/controls evil no matter what another verse that doesnt come from His mouth says about it. For me and my path, I think this is the most logical thing to do. Believe God first, then everything after that that aligns with what God said Himself. Thats why my suggestions to new starters is always to read the bible from front to back, believing it as you go. Eventually, you'll reach a point where something is not adding up, and thats when you go with what was established FIRST. But thats just me...

And this kinda ties into your last sentence. In the OT God never suggested that He would come die for sins to put an end to sin/evil. So why would Israel in the bible believe it when Jesus came around and some of his followers (because Jesus didnt suggest this either to my recollection) started to say that this was God's plan all along? Why would they believe that a man could die for their sins when Moses tried to do the same and was told that the man who sins against God is the one who dies and not told "No Moses, you're not good/God enough to do that" or something of that sort? As I said I take precedence of God's words over everything else. So if I cant show God supporting the belief, I personally choose not to hold it. Maybe this part of your post was directed at christians or even rhetorical. If so my mistake and you can disregard lol...

 

[Yahda]

@karlsmon Malachi 3:6 says For I am the Lord I change not and you are the sons of Jacob and; you have not yet come to your finish.

Psalms 5:4 says: For you are not a God who takes pleasure in wickedness. No one bad may remain with you.

Meaning YOU can't do evil, not God.

The rest of the scriptures are from the NT, which paints God as this loving, merciful, kum-by-Yah God when that's not the case when you read the OT.

Amos 3:6 if a horn is blown in a city do the people not tremble? If a calamity occurs in the city is it not I who caused it.

The God of the OT is and eye for an eye, hand for a hand, foot for a foot God (Exodus 21:24). The God of the NT is a unicorns and rainbow god. Just believe in the sun, have faith, everyone is saved * throws confetti *

Christians are in for a rude awakening.

Last but not least the serpent and Satan are two different entities.

 

[grateful servant]

1. How did Satan get tempt Adam and Eve to eat the apple if he was kicked out & banned from Heaven - How did he get back in? I question people this all the time, and regardless of religion, no one answers it and just dodges the question.

Allah knows best. It's a matter of the ghayb that's not explained in the Quran or Hadith so it's not something we need to know. He could have spoken to them from just outside Paradise or he may have entered the body of a snake like the Jewish sources say.

​

2. The creation and start of Evil, a lot of people, especially Christians, believe that Evil/sin exists because of Satan, but that obviously doesnt make sense because Satan wasn't always evil. Christians believe he was an angel who disobeyed God, and Muslims believe he was a Jinn who worshipped god so much that God allowed him out of any jinn in existence to have access into heaven among the angels, which he later than disobeyed God by not bowing to adam out of pride, & you know the rest.

But Evil existed before Satan was "evil", and if god is the creator of everything, that means he also created evil, but if god is fully benevolent, how did he create the concept evil?

Everything Allah created and how He created it is due to His divine wisdom. Evil is a test for us in this life ...if you think about it, you can't have one thing (like good) without it's opposite (evil). Ibnul Qayyim said: Allah most Glorified has placed all manner of good in Paradise and all manner of evil in the Fire. So the former is an abode which was chosen for good and the latter is an abode which was chosen for evil. And there is an abode in which good and evil are mixed and that is this abode (the life of this world). So when the Appointed Day comes, Allah will distinguish between the evil and the good and then the matter will rest upon two abodes only." (from: Provisions for the Herafter)

3. Religion states that God is 100% against any type of sexual deviation, Whether it's sexual acts like homosexuality, or sex changes. But then explain intersex humans? 1 in every 2000 babies (which is actually a lot btw), is born with both a male & female reproductive organ. Why would God create humans that way? They are physically born that way, it isn't some "mental issue" like a lot of religious people say about being gay etc. God literally created them as both a male & female which contradicts everything religion states on how God views deviations especially regarding sexuality.

Sexual deviation is different than intersex. Deviation (from anything) requires a conscious decision - choosing between what is right and what is wrong. Muslims use the Quran and Sunnah as the criterion for right and wrong. If someone is born with both sets of genitalia (or none or 'extra parts'), that doesn't mean they are deviant or sinful. I don't know why Allah made some people intersex just as I don't know why He creates some humans as male and some as female. Why some are born blind or without limbs etc...

Not to belittle your questions or anything, but maybe you should focus on how you can have a good life in the Akhirah, if you believe in God and the Last Day. Peace.

 

[A-Omega]

Creating evil in the Bible does not mean "I am the inventor of bad behavior." Evil in the modern sense is an adjective (e.g.,
he is evil"). In the Bible it is an adjective and a noun that refers to a JUDGMENT.

When Judah was trying to persuade Joseph to let Benjamin return home he said:

"33 Now therefore, I pray thee, let thy servant abide instead of the lad a bondman to my lord; and let the lad go up with his brethren.
34 For how shall I go up to my father, and the lad be not with me? lest peradventure I see the evil that shall come on my father." - Genesis 44:33-34.

When Isaiah rebuked his people for abandoning the faith to practice the occult he said:

"For thou hast trusted in thy wickedness: thou hast said, None seeth me. Thy wisdom and thy knowledge, it hath perverted thee; and thou hast said in thine heart, I am, and none else beside me. 11 Therefore shall evil come upon thee; thou shalt not know from whence it riseth: and mischief shall fall upon thee; thou shalt not be able to put it off: and desolation shall come upon thee suddenly, which thou shalt not know." - Isaiah 47:10-11.

In context this is referring to a judgment for their sin. This is the context of Isaiah 45 when The Lord says He "creates evil." It's not about God putting bad thoughts in your mind. You can do that all on your own with no problem. It's about God explaining that He has control over all events - good and bad. The whole passage is expressing His Sovereignty. It's not an explanation for the "origin of evil."

 

[Valerian]

Allah knows best. It's a matter of the ghayb that's not explained in the Quran or Hadith so it's not something we need to know. He could have spoken to them from just outside Paradise or he may have entered the body of a snake like the Jewish sources say.

​

Everything Allah created and how He created it is due to His divine wisdom. Evil is a test for us in this life ...if you think about it, you can't have one thing (like good) without it's opposite (evil). Ibnul Qayyim said: Allah most Glorified has placed all manner of good in Paradise and all manner of evil in the Fire. So the former is an abode which was chosen for good and the latter is an abode which was chosen for evil. And there is an abode in which good and evil are mixed and that is this abode (the life of this world). So when the Appointed Day comes, Allah will distinguish between the evil and the good and then the matter will rest upon two abodes only." (from: Provisions for the Herafter)


Sexual deviation is different than intersex. Deviation (from anything) requires a conscious decision - choosing between what is right and what is wrong. Muslims use the Quran and Sunnah as the criterion for right and wrong. If someone is born with both sets of genitalia (or none or 'extra parts'), that doesn't mean they are deviant or sinful. I don't know why Allah made some people intersex just as I don't know why He creates some humans as male and some as female. Why some are born blind or without limbs etc...

Not to belittle your questions or anything, but maybe you should focus on how you can have a good life in the Akhirah, if you believe in God and the Last Day. Peace.

In regards to your first statement, satan turning into a snake and entering heaven is still ...satan entering heave, it doesnt matter what fashion he wore when doing it. Also, I Really despise when people say its "not explained in religion so we don't NEED to know"

Yes we do NEED to know. We can't just ignore these things. Imagine if a muslim told a christian how it doesnt make sense that jesus is a man, the son of god, a holy spirit, and god all at the same time - in which a christian replied "we dont need to have an answer for that"

Most muslims/people in general regardless of beliefs would say that the christian in this analogy is dodging the question. But when muslims cant answer something, it's seen as acceptable in islam because it's "something we dont need to know"

"Something we dont need to know" is what color Prophet Muhammad's hair turban was. There's a huge difference here lol.

As for the intersex statement in regards to babies being born with defects etc, it isnt the same. Being born blind doesnt inhibit you in terms of creating sin for yourself, if anything it may prevent it. But being born with both private parts creates an allure of issues.

1. Your sexual indentity is unknown
2. Regardless of which "path" you go for sexually, you're considered sinful because you arent male nor female.
3. It causes major confusion and usually leads to suicide.

Religion specifically despises any type of sexual deviation, but being born with 2 sexual parts causes deviation. It doesn't make sense and it's quite contradicting.

Sexuality is interesting with religion because if God hates sexual deviation so much, why even have the concept of homosexuality or intersex humans? Being gay is obviously not a choice (im not saying its something you're born with, but we dont know the mechanics of it all yet), but its not a choice, so why even have the concept of it exist in humans? Muslims say the quran & the Hadith have the answers to every problem for humans regardless of time era, but yet there isnt anything useful on sexuality, especially intersex humans.

And considering 1 in every 1000-2000 babies are intersex, that would mean theres about 7 million humans with both parts, is that not enough to warrant a message from God about this topic? But there isnt one. And it's not like intersex is some new mutation, it's always existed, just like homosexuality.

(being a p***phile/beastiality doesn't count in this debate because those arent between 2 agreed adults/humans, so if anything, those 2 labels are ACTUAL sinful deviations because they harm something/someone)

 

[grateful servant]

Knowing how Satan convinced Adam and Hawa to disobey God is not from the Pillars of our Faith. So no, we don't need to know it.

Knowing Who God is and how we should live in submission to Him is, so the Christian's saying Jesus is God is not a good comparison.

Being intersex does not automatically lead to being sinful unless someone was engaging in sexual conduct outside of marriage. I only used the blind or limbless comparison to illustrate that we don't know why God does what He does. The issue is not black and white as you seem to make it. Someone may have more male traits than female or vice versa. Intersex could mean many different things.
I have seen the issue of intersex discussed by scholars of Islam and in light of Quran and hadith so maybe you aren't aware of it . I am not knowledgeable on the subject so I don't feel qualified to speak about it, but certainly there are scholars who have covered the issue in more detail and doctors who can determine the best course of action for people with both physical traits (male and female).

Alot of things cause confusion and lead to suicide, depends on the person, their level of faith, and support system. Ultimately it depends on how you view life- why are you here? If you beleive in God then do you beleive that He does not put on a person anymore than they can bear?

Obviously we have very different ideas about the issues and I don't think I could offer you anything to sway your stance. May you find peace in your life.

 

[AspiringSoul]

1)
The story, like much of what's in the early part of Genesis is not literal truth but mythological truth.
Satan is not A specific entity but a state of mind.
If you want to understand this look into Buddhism's description of Tanha and Chandha..this is the difference between fire and light.
The serpent is our own carnal nature ie in this case Adam and Even were tempted by their own carnal nature.
The story is particularly important ie awareness of this law led to curiousity which led to temptation and finally the sin.
Basically it's a way of explaining our metaphysical descent.


2)
The ultimate expression of God ie the universal consciousness/logos/word of God is a state of perfect unity.
However the state of seperation (ie creation/multiplicity) was the natural next step in the expression ie God being expressed through the macrocosm and the microcosm...
By becoming aware of our seperate self .desire was born. Desire directed the right way(chandha)is in alignment with unity/perfection etc but desire directed further towards our 'personal' self leads to evil/suffering etc..yet we are never cut off from the Essence of God hence 'My mercy surrounds everything'.
So even in the worst state of darkness..by merely believing in God..there is an opening to the eternal light. It's like Jesus said, even a mustard seed worth of faith will produce miracles ie even in the worst conditions...God will turn the soil (our heart) resulting in our suffering and experience our own evil until we finally manage to overcome that state and the seed (faith) becomes firmly rooted.

(1) Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri: The Prophet said, "When the people of Paradise will enter Paradise and the people of Hell will go to Hell, Allah will order those who have had faith equal to the weight of a grain of mustard seed to be taken out from Hell. So they will be taken out but (by then) they will be blackened (charred). Then they will be put in the river of Haya' (rain) or Hayat (life) (the Narrator is in doubt as to which is the right term), and they will revive like a grain that grows near the bank of a flood channel. Don't you see that it comes out yellow and twisted" (Book #2, Hadith #21)

Now to get to that point of planting good seeds, we have to become conscious of what a bad seed is and what it produces and also experience this 'tilling of the soil'. So it's basically necessary to experience pain in order to appreciate the significance of healing.
It's that same old theme of the problem of duality.

Whilst in eastern spirituality they mostly reject duality...in the Abrahimic religion it's about faith IN duality and bringing God to us ie planting the seed of faith within us.

think about it, most of us will never reach enlightenment in this life...but we can still....at ANY time we like connect with God and plant good seeds in us. It's just a matter of perseverance.





3)
To really understand this topic I think you require a better understanding from other religions like hinduism too.
they believe there are 3 states of mind
Sattva (purity)
Rajas (passion)
Tanha (ignorance)

in islam similarly we do have the state of Islam and Jahilliya. Passion isn't talked about in depth but the sufis called it HAWA. hawa is basically our etheric/pranic energy, the driving force behind desire. It's also the arabic name of Eve.

However the subtle difference here is in hinduism it teaches that not only do we deal with these states as individuals, but also as collective groups ie civilisations..
this is better understood if you know how the etheric energy around us ie our collective vibration is what dominates us.
So literally ANYone living in this society could be born gay these days (like I know a few muslims who've come out as gay and they were in religious families)...that's the civilisation we live in.
So if the majority of people are in a state of rajas..we all suffer from whatever symptoms are associated with that state.

Now compare that to what Paul talked about in Romans 1.....

People collectively FORGOT God..meaning they left the state of Sattva/islam and they entered into passion/rajas.
Those conditions eventually led to homosexuality and their destruction.

Think about it, we've gone from the RAPID rise of homosexuality...right to the RAPID rise of confused gender identity within the last century and moreso the last 30 years.
We're def a collective civilisation knee deep in rajas and tamas.


In Rev 6 he 3rd horseman represents the age of materialism and globalisation..the 4th horseman represents every calamity, ie self destruction. we're close to destroying ourselves and the planet, driven by personal desire.

it all goes back to that original point about Tanha (craving) and Chandha (wholesome desire).
To Buddha, Tanha was the root of all suffering.
God tells us the same thing.....and Jesus's view was to kill our carnal nature entirely.

imo as a muslim...
it's like God tells us
We belong to Allah and to Him we shall return
I actually think even these natural questions we're asking like Why God would even create us in this state and then cause us to experience suffering...when He has the power to make everything perfect...is a necessary step in our eventual ascent to God.


read sufi literature like Rumi's Mathnawi
here's how it begins

1 Listen1 to the reed (flute),* how it is complaining! It is telling
about separations,
(Saying), "Ever since I was severed from the reed field,4 men
and women have lamented in (the presence of) my shrill cries.5
3 "(But) I want a heart (which is) torn, torn from separation, so that
I may explain* the pain of yearning."

does this even make sense to you?

 

[Karlysymon]

I definitely would NEVER say or insinuate that the Most High is evil. But He (well according to whoever wrote Isaiah 45:7) said that He creates good and evil. In one of the chronicles/kings books He sends an evil spirit to possess Saul. In the book of Job, before satan could take away any of Job's possessions/health/kids/wife etc... he had to get permission from God. So in your view, how doesnt this support that God controls good and evil? How doesnt Isaiah 45:7 support the conclusion that God created both good and evil? Heck, where did the tree of knowledge of good AND evil come from if not by His hand?

I think God created good and evil, told us the rewards/consequences of choosing one or the other, then gave us a choice to pick one or the other. I dont think He should be "blamed" because people chose evil, do you? I mean, we dont blame God for Adam and Eve's decision to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil though the tree could only exist because of God right? I think this is kinda similar to how people will say God is all love, though in the OT, He clearly and repeatedly states He hates certain things/people/nations. But some people choose to take certain verses over others. I do too, but I give God's words precedence over the words of man, or even "Jesus" since he said the One that sent him was greater than him. So if He said He hates, then He has hate no matter what 1 John says about Him being all love. Or if He said He creates/controls evil, then I take that to mean He creates/controls evil no matter what another verse that doesnt come from His mouth says about it. For me and my path, I think this is the most logical thing to do. Believe God first, then everything after that that aligns with what God said Himself. Thats why my suggestions to new starters is always to read the bible from front to back, believing it as you go. Eventually, you'll reach a point where something is not adding up, and thats when you go with what was established FIRST. But thats just me...

God takes responsibility for the evil He PERMITS to occur. As for King Saul, his problems began in 1 Sam 15 when he was rejected as king for his rebellion. 2 Sam 7:15 states that God took His love away from him. When God leaves, someone else steps in to fill the vacuum. Its not like He shoved an evil spirit into Saul. The Bible says Satan entered Judas. Wasn't that by choice?
When you say God creates good and evil, you inadvertently state that He has a dual nature even though its something you do not believe, atleast thats how i understand your pov. @A-Omega explained the verse well, though.
Good and evil are directly tied to character and cannot be created like a plant or a dog. God is inherently good. All goodness originates from Him. Evil is opposite of or an inversion of goodness. The only reason evil exists is because of free-will. Without free-will, it wouldn't exist, we would all be automatons or"Yes-men". Despite the risks, no one wants to give it up to become a robot.

And this kinda ties into your last sentence. In the OT God never suggested that He would come die for sins to put an end to sin/evil.

So what was the point of the instructions regarding an unblemished sacrifice, given to Moses on Sinai?

So why would Israel in the bible believe it when Jesus came around and some of his followers (because Jesus didnt suggest this either to my recollection) started to say that this was God's plan all along? Why would they believe that a man could die for their sins when Moses tried to do the same and was told that the man who sins against God is the one who dies and not told "No Moses, you're not good/God enough to do that" or something of that sort? As I said I take precedence of God's words over everything else. So if I cant show God supporting the belief, I personally choose not to hold it. Maybe this part of your post was directed at christians or even rhetorical. If so my mistake and you can disregard lol...

The temple and its rites were very central to Israel's way of life. Why offer meaningless sacrifices for millenia?
The scriptures presented Christ both as a conquering King and a Suffering Servant. They clearly ignored the latter because it wasn't a solution to their present problems.
Yes, Jesus stated it...He came to give His life as a ransom for many (Matt 20:28). So did high priest Caiaphas (John 11:49-52)

 

[Karlysymon]

The rest of the scriptures are from the NT, which paints God as this loving, merciful, kum-by-Yah God when that's not the case
when you read the OT.

How do you feel or does it make any sense to you, to pray to an unloving, merciless OT God? By those character traits, its obvious He wouldn't give ear to your pleas.
Are these OT verses about a rainbows-unicorns and confetti God?

The Lord appeared to us in the past saying: I have loved you with an everlasting love, I have drawn you with loving kindness Jeremiah 31:3

the Lord is compassionate and
gracious, slow to anger, abounding in love. He will not always accuse, nor will he harbour his anger for
ever; he does not treat us as our sins deserve or repay us according to our iniquities. For as high as the heavens are above the earth, so great is his love for those who fear him; as far as the east is from the west, so far has he removed our transgressions from us. As a father has compassion on his children, so the Lord has compassion on those who fear him; for he knows how we are formed, he remembers that we are dust. Psalm 103:8-14

‘How can I give you up, Ephraim? How can I hand you over, Israel?
How can I treat you like Admah? How can I make you like Zeboiim? My heart is changed within me; all my compassion is aroused. I will not carry out my fierce anger, nor will I devastate Ephraim. For I am God, and not a man –
the Holy One among you. I will not come in wrath Hosea 11:8-9

Who is a God like you, who pardons sin and forgives the transgression
of the remnant of his inheritance? You do not stay angry for ever but delight to show mercy. You will again have compassion on us; you will tread our sins underfoot
and hurl all our iniquities into the depths of the sea. Micah 7:18-19


The verses are way too many....