"Concentration camps-like" migrant youth shelters in the US have taken over 10,000 children.

irrationalNinja

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Your defending someone who has been proven so wrong, so many times... including here and now. You offered no opinions or verifiable facts regarding the topic of discussion.... "a classic example of a characteristic of all social justice warriors: SJW’s Always Project." Congrats, by your own definition you are an official SJW genius.
I offer no defense (especially to someone who needs none - handling this thread as artfully as has @Thunderian), simply an injection into the conversation, for those keeping score.

I guess there's some who will think I am always the problem, and there's nothing that can change that. All I want is a good discussion. @Mr.Grieves, I thought you and I had a relatively pleasant exchange. Thanks.

Is everyone OK with this happening over and over again on this board?
It is annoying to read page after page and thread after thread... the Narrative is tired and played, name calling is juvenile, and ignored dialectic is boring.

And it is bemusing... reading continuous accusations comparing @Thunderian to the MSM... actually using the Narratives of the MSM to level the accusations. Facts and reality are completely ignored in place of rhetorical diatribes filled with MSNBC- and CNN-level delusion.

@Thunderian
IMHO... For some, discourse is simply impossible due to the development of a disconnect that does not allow ratiocination (a reasoned train of thought)...

The result is people programmed to be incapable of understanding dialectic discourse.

Concerning the link to the press conference... for anyone who has not read it, to fully understand the situation or to rethink your state of apoplexy, read it.

It is amusing (and relatively familiar) how the reporters repeatedly ignore Secretary Nielsen’s answers, refusing to follow-up on the facts: 1) it is up to Congress to solve a problem with a law both Presidents Bush and Obama were not interested in fixing; 2) the overwhelming majority of children were separated from their parents by their parents when they were sent packing to the border either unaccompanied or accompanied by someone who is not a familial relation.
 

justjess

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Have you heard that children were separated from their parents under Obama & Clinton? Then, you need a little Facts vs Myths lesson. Michelle Martin, PhD Cal State Fullerton summed up the most important FACTS:

There is so much misinformation out there about the Trump administration's new "zero tolerance" policy that requires criminal prosecution, which then warrants the separating of parents and children at the border. Before responding to a post defending this policy, please do your research...As a professor at a local Cal State, I research and write about these issues, so here, I'll make it easier for you:

Myth: This is not a new policy and was practiced under Obama and Clinton - FALSE. The policy to separate parents and children is new and was instituted on 4/6/2018. It was the brainchild of John Kelly and Stephen Miller to serve as a deterrent for undocumented immigration, approved by Trump, and adopted by Sessions. Prior administrations detained migrant families, but didn’t have a practice of forcibly separating parents from their children unless the adults were deemed unfit. https://www.justice.gov/opa/press-release/file/1049751/download?utm_medium=email&utm_source=govdelivery

Myth: This is the only way to deter undocumented immigration - FALSE. Annual trends show that arrests for undocumented entry are at a 46 year low, and undocumented crossings dropped in 2007, with a net loss (more people leaving than arriving). Deportations have increased steadily though (spiking in 1996 and more recently), because several laws that were passed since 1996 have made it legally more difficult to gain legal status for people already here, and thus increased their deportations (I address this later under the myth that it's the Democrats' fault). What we mostly have now are people crossing the border illegally because they've already been hired by a US company, or because they are seeking political asylum. Economic migrants come to this country because our country has kept the demand going. But again, many of these people impacted by Trump's "zero tolerance" policy appear to be political asylum-seekers. https://www.npr.org/2017/12/05/568546381/arrests-for-illegal-border-crossings-hit-46-year-low

Myth: Most of the people coming across the border are just trying to take advantage of our country by taking our jobs - FALSE. Most of the parents who have been impacted by Trump's "zero tolerance" policy have presented themselves as political asylum-seekers at a U.S. port-of-entry, from El Salvador, Guatemala, and Honduras. Rather than processing their claims, they have been taken into custody on the spot and had their children ripped from their arms. The ACLU alleges that this practice violates the Asylum Act, and the UN asserts that it violates the UN Treaty on the State of Refugees, one of the few treaties the US has ratified. This is an illegal act on the part of the United States government, not to mention morally and ethically reprehensible. https://www.nytimes.com/2001/12/21/us/meatpackers-profits-hinge-on-pool-of-immigrant-labor.html

Myth: We're a country that respects the Rule of Law, and if people break the law, this is what they get - FALSE. We are a country that has an above-ground system of immigration and an underground system. Our government (under both parties) has always been aware that US companies recruit workers in the poorest parts of Mexico for cheap labor, and ICE (and its predecessor INS) has looked the other way because this underground economy benefits our country to the tune of billions of dollars annually. Thus, even though the majority of people crossing the border now are asylum-seekers, those who are economic migrants (migrant workers) likely have been recruited here to do jobs Americans will not do. https://www.upi.com/Top_News/Opinion/2016/10/26/Donald-Trumps-wall-ignores-the-economic-logic-of-undocumented-immigrant-labor/2621477498203/

Myth: The children have to be separated from their parents because there parents must be arrested and it would be cruel to put children in jail with their parents - FALSE. First, in the case of economic migrants crossing the border illegally, criminal prosecution has not been the legal norm, and families have been kept together at all cost. Also, crossing the border without documentation is a typically a misdemeanor not requiring arrest, but rather a civil proceeding. Additionally, parents who have been detained have historically been detained with their children in ICE "family residential centers," again, for civil processing. The Trump administration's shift in policy is for political purposes only, not legal ones. See p. 18: https://www.aclu.org/legal-document/ms-l-v-ice-plaintiffs-opposition-defendants-motion-dismiss-doc-56

Myth: We have rampant fraud in our asylum process the proof of which is the significant increase we have in the number of people applying for asylum. FALSE. The increase in asylum seekers is a direct result of the increase in civil conflict and violence across the globe. While some people may believe that we shouldn't allow any refugees into our country because "it's not our problem," neither our current asylum law, nor our ideological foundation as a country support such an isolationist approach. There is very little evidence to support Sessions' claim that abuse of our asylum-seeking policies is rampant. Also, what Sessions failed to mention is that the majority of asylum seekers are from China, not South of the border. Here is a very fair and balanced assessment of his statements: http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2017/oct/19/jeff-sessions/jeff-sessions-claim-about-asylum-system-fraudulent/

Myth: The Democrats caused this, "it's their law." FALSE. Neither the Republicans nor the Democrats caused this, the Trump administration did (although the Republicans could fix this today, and have refused). I believe what this myth refers to is the passage of the Illegal Immigration Reform and Immigrant Responsibility Act, which were both passed under Clinton in 1996. These laws essentially made unauthorized entry into the US a crime (typically a misdemeanor for first-time offenders), but under both Republicans and Democrats, these cases were handled through civil deportation proceedings, not a criminal proceeding, which did not require separation. And again, even in cases where detainment was required, families were always kept together in family residential centers, unless the parents were deemed unfit (as mentioned above). Thus, Trump's assertion that he hates this policy but has no choice but to separate the parents from their children, because the Democrats "gave us this law" is false and nothing more than propaganda designed to compel negotiation on bad policy. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/trump-democrats-us-border-migrant-families-children-parents-mexico-separate-a8401521.html

Myth: The parents and children will be reunited shortly, once the parents' court cases are finalized. FALSE. Criminal court is a vastly different beast than civil court proceedings. Also, the children are being processed as unaccompanied minors ("unaccompanied alien children"), which typically means they are sent into the custody of the Office of Refugee Resettlement (ORR), which is part of the Department of Health and Human Services (DHS). Under normal circumstances when a child enters the country without his or her parent, ORR attempts to locate a family member within a few weeks, and the child is then released to a family member, or if a family member cannot be located, the child is placed in a residential center (anywhere in the country), or in some cases, foster care. Prior to Trump's new policy, ORR was operating at 95% capacity, and they simply cannot effectively manage the influx of 2000+ children, some as young as 4 months. Also, keep in mind, these are not unaccompanied minor children, they have parents. There is great legal ambiguity on how and even whether the parents will get their children back because we are in uncharted territory right now. According to the ACLU lawsuit (see below), there is currently no easy vehicle for reuniting parents with their children. Additionally, according to a May 2018 report, numerous cases of verbal, physical and sexual abuse were found to have occurred in these residential centers. https://www.aclu.org/news/aclu-obtains-documents-showing-widespread-abuse-child-immigrants-us-custody

Myth: This policy is legal. LIKELY FALSE. The ACLU filed a lawsuit against the Trump administration on 5/6/18, and a recent court ruling denied the government's motion to dismiss the suit. The judge deciding the case stated that the Trump Administration policy is "brutal, offensive, and fails to comport with traditional notions of fair play and decency." The case is moving forward because it was deemed to have legal merit. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-06-07/aclu-suit-over-child-separations-at-border-may-proceed-judge
Facts.
 

Mr.Grieves

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Something else that blows my mind is how much money is being spent on these incarcerations. Something like roughly 800 dollars per person being held per night that they're held? That's madness. You could put these people up in a best-western instead for a fraction of the cost.
 

A.J.

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Didn't read all the prior posts but a few things to add.... Political and religious establishments have been complicit with this.... Including children being smuggled in unaccompanied... This is big business and kids are being used for global corporate agenda...
 
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A.J.

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First read this....
https://theconservativetreehouse.com/2018/06/20/illegal-immigration-and-lax-border-controls-are-the-epicenter-of-the-uniparty/

Then see how 10K brought unaccompanied. Parents were AWOL - this is a set up
"NIELSEN: So I want to be clear on a couple of other things. The vast majority, vast vast majority of children who are in the care of HHS right now — 10,000 of the 12,000 — were sent here alone by their parents. That’s when they were separated."
http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2018/06/18/http-www-breitbart-com-big-government-2018-06-18-dhs-secretary-kirstjen-nielsen-challenges-cowardly-congress-for-failure-on-immigration-laws/
 

A.J.

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Pics from obama admin that media never reported on http://amp.dailycaller.com/2018/06/19/photos-obama-immigration-detention-facilities/

CIA backed Washington Post reports: Obama administration placed children with human traffickers, report says....
https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/obama-administration-placed-children-with-human-traffickers-report-says/2016/01/28/39465050-c542-11e5-9693-933a4d31bcc8_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.d1c18630367d

http://m.ncregister.com/daily-news/obama_administration_eases_ban_on_funds_for_sex_trafficking_groups#.WyuXyZ8pA0M

I'm not a trump disciple but he does not appear lockstep with the uniparty (or else he wouldn't be the target of trumped up investigation he has been from the very beginning)
 
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A.J.

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And let's not forget this... Trump can still be a scumbag and not knee deep in this level of evil and depravity...
https://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews/crime/item/25713-dr-phil-interview-exposes-global-elite-pedophiles
God can use anything and anyone to shake things up...I, for one, am praying

"Because when parents send their kids to cross Mexico alone, taking them into custody — which is the plan, by the way — at the border is not the same as putting them “concentration camps”:
Vox’s Dara Lind is making this same point if you don’t believe us. He tweeted “most of” these kids are unaccompanied minors and “were not forcibly separated”..."
most of those 11K were not forcibly separated; they are legit unaccompanied minors (generally teens) who came to the US without their parents/guardians.
https://twitchy.com/gregp-3534/2018/06/19/surprise-vox-writer-backs-up-kirstjen-nielsen-most-of-the-kids-in-detention-are-unaccompanied-minors-not-forcibly-separated/
 
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TempestOfTempo

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I offer no defense (especially to someone who needs none - handling this thread as artfully as has @Thunderian), simply an injection into the conversation, for those keeping score.



It is annoying to read page after page and thread after thread... the Narrative is tired and played, name calling is juvenile, and ignored dialectic is boring.

And it is bemusing... reading continuous accusations comparing @Thunderian to the MSM... actually using the Narratives of the MSM to level the accusations. Facts and reality are completely ignored in place of rhetorical diatribes filled with MSNBC- and CNN-level delusion.

@Thunderian
IMHO... For some, discourse is simply impossible due to the development of a disconnect that does not allow ratiocination (a reasoned train of thought)...

The result is people programmed to be incapable of understanding dialectic discourse.

Concerning the link to the press conference... for anyone who has not read it, to fully understand the situation or to rethink your state of apoplexy, read it.

It is amusing (and relatively familiar) how the reporters repeatedly ignore Secretary Nielsen’s answers, refusing to follow-up on the facts: 1) it is up to Congress to solve a problem with a law both Presidents Bush and Obama were not interested in fixing; 2) the overwhelming majority of children were separated from their parents by their parents when they were sent packing to the border either unaccompanied or accompanied by someone who is not a familial relation.
Between the two of you, you haven't posted a single correct piece of information in this thread related to the topic. No wonder you and that bloviating blowhard are getting along so well. Misery usually does love company..........
 

ohhi9876

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breaking news: Melania making surprise trip to border! funny she is going and not him. she seems pissed. report via cnn. says she will meet with children... seems like she wants answers. he doesn't i guess.
 

justjess

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We aren’t talking about the unaccompanied minors.

We ARE talking about the 2000+ children that came with their parents who were forcibly separated from their families SINCE MAY and held in the equivalent of a detention center alone, where as previously they had been held in FAMILY CENTERS WITH THEIR FAMILIES pending a determination. There is no reason holding them in FAMILY CENTERS needed to end, it was cheaper and more humane.

We ended orphanages ages ago because of the trauma it inflicted on young children.
 

ohhi9876

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We aren’t talking about the unaccompanied minors.

We ARE talking about the 2000+ children that came with their parents who were forcibly separated from their families SINCE MAY and held in the equivalent of a detention center alone, where as previously they had been held in FAMILY CENTERS WITH THEIR FAMILIES pending a determination. There is no reason holding them in FAMILY CENTERS needed to end, it was cheaper and more humane.

We ended orphanages ages ago because of the trauma it inflicted on young children.
so it just started in may? why are people saying it has been going on and on ... need info linked here to get facts. thanks!
 

TempestOfTempo

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so it just started in may? why are people saying it has been going on and on ... need info linked here to get facts. thanks!
The policy has been in effect for longer than the May date, but for whatever reasons it has been accelerated recently is my understanding. But you are correct to ask for clarification, lets all put our heads together and see what kind of verifiable info we can come up with regarding your inquiry.......
 

TempestOfTempo

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I linked it above early this morning. It started with sessions “no tolerance” policy which was enacted in May of this year.
I think the posters question may have been regarding the reports of these policies existing under the Obama regime and possibly before. But it was my understanding that the current situation was the result of Sessions policy implementation as well.
 

justjess

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https://mobile.nytimes.com/2018/06/19/us/fact-check-trump-child-separation.html

But Mr. Trump was misrepresenting his own policy. There is no law that says children must be taken from their parents if they cross the border unlawfully, and previous administrations have made exceptions for those traveling with minor children when prosecuting immigrants for illegal entry. A “zero tolerance” policy created by the president in April and put into effect last month by the attorney general, Jeff Sessions, allows no such exceptions, Mr. Trump’s advisers say.
https://mobile.nytimes.com/2018/06/15/us/politics/trump-immigration-separation-border.html

https://www.vox.com/platform/amp/2018/6/11/17443198/children-immigrant-families-separated-parents

And I apologize, it was April not may
 

justjess

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I think the posters question may have been regarding the reports of these policies existing under the Obama regime and possibly before. But it was my understanding that the current situation was the result of Sessions policy implementation as well.
I linked earlier first thing this morning an entire breakdown fact vs myth in a quote. It should be on the previous page. It explains prior to this policy families were usually held in family facilities together - not seperate- from their children except in extraordinary circumstances.
 

TempestOfTempo

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So the policy explicitly demanding the forced separation (and subsequent trauma and forced psychotropic drug intake) lies directly at the Trump regimes feet. Meanwhile, hes not allowing for the reunification of already separated families and those children in question have, in large part, literally vanished from the system once they were placed inside of it. These are the actions of those who steal children and disappear them, there is no question of that...... so the question now becomes, why? Why have these children been stolen and disappeared by the Trump administration?
 

justjess

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At the top of this page I posted something inside a quote that has additional links and sources for every aspect of this horrendous situation. Anyone seeking further info should refer to it.

As for why... well Epstein was a great friend of his..

Edit: he also submitted a proposal to end the practice which included as a requirement funding for his border wall, so one of two things - the kids are being used as hostages so he can get his damn wall, or more nefariously they are disappearing to his pedo friends or both. Probably both.
 

TempestOfTempo

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At the top of this page I posted something inside a quote that has additional links and sources for every aspect of this horrendous situation. Anyone seeking further info should refer to it.

As for why... well Epstein was a great friend of his..

Edit: he also submitted a proposal to end the practice which included as a requirement funding for his border wall, so one of two things - the kids are being used as hostages so he can get his damn wall, or more nefariously they are disappearing to his pedo friends or both. Probably both.
Thats the ticket. This is a demonic power play any way its sliced..... and with the history and connections of the players involved, it doesn't take much to piece together the players motives.
 
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