Comparing Christianity and Islam

Joined
Mar 7, 2018
Messages
126
Likes
415
#81
John 6:40 King James Version (KJV)
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Did you mean this verse?
6-47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
Because in the verse that you mentioned, you have to see the Son of God to be qualified. I was not looking for a verse indicating salvation by faith, I just wanted to know what Christians think of the verses I mentioned.

FYI, Forever Light is NOT a Christian.
I know. That's why I directed my question toward "Christians".
 





Last edited:
Joined
Apr 22, 2017
Messages
1,398
Likes
2,723
#82
I know that, but aren't these commandments a higher level of Mosaic Law?
5- 17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
5-18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
5-19 Whosoever, therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.


As I see it, verse 19 is also connected to the previous verses, "therefore" as an indication. Jesus explicitly states that Moses Laws are not to be abolished, and what he teaches will take those laws higher and make those laws complete. Then he connects the kingdom of heaven with those commandments (Which I see as a higher level of Mosaic Law) and makes clear that you're not allowed to play with those commandments, you have to be more righteous than Pharisees to enter heaven. The following commandments he describes are clearly adding to the spiritual side of the Laws. But I don't see anything indicating you can enter heaven just by calling his name, at least not here. He is actually warning not to think like that at the end of the sermon.


From what I gather, you are saying that these commandments are sth different from Mosaic Law. But I think those are a higher level of what Moses taught. The sermon on the mount is so beautiful I can't get enough of it. Also, the last thing you said is quite what I believe, too.
They aren't higher levels but separate and only for Israel whereas the Royal Law, referenced by James and given by Jesus, is for everyone. Jesus fulfilled the Mosaic law in its entirety leaving us with the two greatest commandments. The mosaic is what Paul was referencing and the conflation and additions were of the Pharisees and part of why Jesus rebuked them.
 





Joined
Mar 24, 2017
Messages
3,783
Likes
5,991
#83
They aren't higher levels but separate and only for Israel whereas the Royal Law, referenced by James and given by Jesus, is for everyone. Jesus fulfilled the Mosaic law in its entirety leaving us with the two greatest commandments. The mosaic is what Paul was referencing and the conflation and additions were of the Pharisees and part of why Jesus rebuked them.
Heaven and earth haven't disappeared yet though.
 





Joined
Apr 22, 2017
Messages
1,398
Likes
2,723
#84
Heaven and earth haven't disappeared yet though.
Read the verses again
 





Joined
Apr 22, 2017
Messages
1,398
Likes
2,723
#86
I did and heaven and earth haven't disappeared and everything hasn't been accomplished yet seeing as Jesus hasn't returned.
He fulfilled the law. It's not in effect.
 





Joined
Mar 15, 2017
Messages
3,920
Likes
6,447
#88
But heaven and earth would pass away if he did. Tell me how he fulfilled the law when he hasn't finished everything he has set out to accomplish?
It would require logic predicated on theology you reject, but...

Question: "What does it mean that Jesus fulfilled the law, but did not abolish it?"

Answer:
In Matthew’s record of what is commonly called the Sermon on the Mount, these words of Jesus are recorded: “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished” (Matthew 5:17-18).

It is frequently argued that if Jesus did not “abolish” the law, then it must still be binding. Accordingly, such components as the Sabbath-day requirement must be operative still, along with perhaps numerous other elements of the Mosaic Law. This assumption is grounded in a misunderstanding of the words and intent of this passage. Christ did not suggest here that the binding nature of the law of Moses would remain forever in effect. Such a view would contradict everything we learn from the balance of the New Testament (Romans 10:4; Galatians 3:23-25; Ephesians 2:15).

Of special significance in this study is the word rendered “abolish.” It translates the Greek term kataluo, literally meaning “to loosen down.” The word is found seventeen times in the New Testament. It is used, for example, of the destruction of the Jewish temple by the Romans (Matthew 26:61; 27:40; Acts 6:14), and of the dissolving of the human body at death (2 Corinthians 5:1). The term can carry the extended meaning of “to overthrow,” i.e., “to render vain, deprive of success.” In classical Greek, it was used in connection with institutions, laws, etc., to convey the idea of “to invalidate.”

It is especially important to note how the word is used in Matthew 5:17. In this context, “abolish” is set in opposition to “fulfill.” Christ came “...not to abolish, but to fulfill.” Jesus did not come to this earth for the purpose of acting as an opponent of the law. His goal was not to prevent its fulfillment. Rather, He revered it, loved it, obeyed it, and brought it to fruition. He fulfilled the law’s prophetic utterances regarding Himself (Luke 24:44). Christ fulfilled the demands of the Mosaic law, which called for perfect obedience under threat of a “curse” (see Galatians 3:10, 13). In this sense, the law’s divine design will ever have an abiding effect. It will always accomplish the purpose for which it was given.

If, however, the law of Moses bears the same relationship to men today, in terms of its binding status, then it was not fulfilled, and Jesus failed at what He came to do. On the other hand, if the Lord did accomplish His goal, then the law was fulfilled, and it is not a binding legal institution today. Further, if the law of Moses was not fulfilled by Christ—and thus remains as a binding legal system for today—then it is not just partially binding. Rather, it is a totally compelling system. Jesus plainly said that not one “jot or tittle” (representative of the smallest markings of the Hebrew script) would pass away until all was fulfilled. Consequently, nothing of the law was to fail until it had completely accomplished its purpose. Jesus fulfilled the law. Jesus fulfilled all of the law. We cannot say that Jesus fulfilled the sacrificial system, but did not fulfill the other aspects of the law. Jesus either fulfilled all of the law, or none of it. What Jesus' death means for the sacrificial system, it also means for the other aspects of the law.

https://www.gotquestions.org/abolish-fulfill-law.html
 





Joined
Mar 24, 2017
Messages
3,783
Likes
5,991
#89
It would require logic predicated on theology you reject, but...

Question: "What does it mean that Jesus fulfilled the law, but did not abolish it?"

Answer: In Matthew’s record of what is commonly called the Sermon on the Mount, these words of Jesus are recorded: “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished” (Matthew 5:17-18).

It is frequently argued that if Jesus did not “abolish” the law, then it must still be binding. Accordingly, such components as the Sabbath-day requirement must be operative still, along with perhaps numerous other elements of the Mosaic Law. This assumption is grounded in a misunderstanding of the words and intent of this passage. Christ did not suggest here that the binding nature of the law of Moses would remain forever in effect. Such a view would contradict everything we learn from the balance of the New Testament (Romans 10:4; Galatians 3:23-25; Ephesians 2:15).
This is why you guys seem to twist words and jump through hula-hoops (truly no offense). Jesus says one thing but then Paul says something completely contradictory. In order to reconcile what Paul said you guys take simple statements that Jesus made and turn them into this confusing and complicated mess. If you were to take just Jesus's words then you would see that a lot of the confusion would end.

My beloved Jesus fasted, didn't eat pork, and was of the highest moral character. He followed these simple laws yet Christians, not all, seem to pick choose what they want to follow while also claiming that they're free from the laws their very own "God" followed.
 





Joined
Apr 22, 2017
Messages
1,398
Likes
2,723
#90
This is why you guys seem to twist words and jump through hula-hoops (truly no offense). Jesus says one thing but then Paul says something completely contradictory. In order to reconcile what Paul said you guys take simple statements that Jesus made and turn them into this confusing and complicated mess. If you were to take just Jesus's words then you would see that a lot of the confusion would end.
So what's your interpretation of Matthew 5:17-21? Let's stay on target.
 





Joined
Mar 24, 2017
Messages
3,783
Likes
5,991
#91
So what's your interpretation of Matthew 5:17-21? Let's stay on target.
Why are you telling me to stay on target when I'm replying to what Red posted? If you didn't like the direction it was going perhaps you should have responded to him.

Anyways, my interpretation is exactly what Jesus is saying in that he came to follow the law and what the prophets before him brought.

EDIT: I'll give you more. And until heaven and earth pass away nothing within the Law will be changed. The only time the Law will be done with is when everything is accomplished which is interesting because we know Jesus is to return and after his return Judgment Day happens.
 





Joined
Apr 22, 2017
Messages
1,398
Likes
2,723
#92
Why are you telling me to stay on target when I'm replying to what Red posted? If you didn't like the direction it was going perhaps you should have responded to him.

Anyways, my interpretation is exactly what Jesus is saying in that he came to follow the law and what the prophets before him brought.

EDIT: I'll give you more. And until heaven and earth pass away nothing within the Law will be changed. The only time the Law will be done with is when everything is accomplished which is interesting because we know Jesus is to return and after his return Judgment Day happens.
Would you mind expounding on what you believe encompasses the law?
 





Joined
Mar 24, 2017
Messages
3,783
Likes
5,991
#93
Would you mind expounding on what you believe encompasses the law?
You have the 10 Commandments and others as outlined in the Torah.

The real question I want to know is what were the actual laws that Moses(pbuh) preached and then Jesus after him. I believe the books we have now, though they have some truth in it, have also been heavily edited by scribes and their priests for worldly gain.

Funny enough the Sharia is based almost entirely on the Ten Commandments.
 





Joined
Apr 22, 2017
Messages
1,398
Likes
2,723
#94
You have the 10 Commandments and others as outlined in the Torah.

The real question I want to know is what were the actual laws that Moses(pbuh) preached and then Jesus after him. I believe the books we have now, though they have some truth in it, have also been heavily edited by scribes and their priests for worldly gain.
So the 10 commandments and the 600+ laws, in your opinion, are still in effect and yet tho be fulfilled until the return of Christ?

I believe in inerrancy so I can't answer you. Either my faith transcends logic or denies I'm still for inerrancy.
 





Joined
Mar 24, 2017
Messages
3,783
Likes
5,991
#95
So the 10 commandments and the 600+ laws, in your opinion, are still in effect and yet tho be fulfilled until the return of Christ?
I believe the laws that Moses(pbuh) revealed still apply today and that's exactly what Jesus said as well. Now what those laws actually are is up for debate. Only Jesus will be able to answer that when he returns at least for Christians and Jews.

I believe in inerrancy so I can't answer you. Either my faith transcends logic or denies I'm still for inerrancy.
That's cool. You can believe what you like.
 





Joined
Mar 15, 2017
Messages
3,920
Likes
6,447
#96
@Kung Fu and @Damien50

Excuse me for wading in but I just wanted to say that I don't think there are any "wrong" questions when trying to make sense of things.

Sometimes it is good to see the bigger picture before getting into the details. So...

Perhaps a starting point would to acknowledge that the Qur'an is a message that was given at more or less one point in history, whilst the Bible was revealed over many hundreds of years. The Quran in style is therefore prescriptive whilst the Bible is progressive.

Those of us who have kids understand what "progressive revelation" means in the way we deal with our children. I am different with mine at different ages and expect different things from them. Btw this is just an analogy to help.

God, in His relationship with man in the Bible deals like this - the "faith" chapter in Hebrews is a fantastic sweep through history, showing what faith in God meant. It wasn't about acting on law so much as acting out of faith and relationship with God to do what was asked. E.g. Noah - "Build a Boat", Gideon "Man Up" [my paraphrase].

Even with Jesus, there are the teachings and words He shared with the Jews (and gentiles), then there was the fullness of what they meant when interpreted through His death and resurrection.

There was the expectation of the Messiah looking forward, then the understanding of the Messiah in hindsight.

Jesus doesn't finish speaking till the end if the book of Revelation. To miss this progression in scripture is to miss the meaning.

When you do, it looks like a jigsaw tipped out on the floor. You need wisdom and the guidance of the Holy Spirit to put the pieces together properly.

God bless.

p.s. I just read a fuller and better explanation on the above so I include it here...

Dispensationalism is a system of theology which attempts to develop the Bible’s philosophy of history on the basis of the sovereign rule of God. Dispensationalism represents the whole of Scripture and history as being covered by several administrations of God’s rule. A dispensation is a religious order or system, conceived as divinely instituted, or as a stage in a progressive revelation, expressly adapted to the needs of a particular nation or period of time. The term “dispensation” can be defined as a particular way of God’s administering His rule over the world as He progressively works out His purpose for world history.

Throughout history God has employed several "dispensations" but only one way of salvation. Dispensational Theologians normally name each new dispensation after the new ruling factor or factors:

Dispensation of Innocence - From the creation of man to the fall of man.
Dispensation of Conscience - From the fall of man through the Noahic Flood.
Dispensation of Human Government - From the Noahic Flood to the call of Abraham.
Dispensation of Promise - From God’s call of Abraham to the giving of the Mosaic Law at Mount Sinai.
Dispensation of The Mosaic Law - From the giving of the Mosaic Law at Mount Sinai to the death of Jesus Christ on the Cross at Mount Calvary.
Dispensation of Grace - From Christ on the Cross to His Second Coming.
Dispensation of The Millennium - After the Second Coming of Christ to the release of Satan from the abyss and his final revolt.

The dispensations are chronologically successive. They are not different ways of salvation - the means of salvation has always been by grace through faith. The object of faith has always been God, but the content of faith has changed within different dispensations dependent upon progressive revelation found within His Word.

Genesis 12:3; Deuteronomy 28:25, 64-65; 30:1-5; 2 Samuel 7:8–16; Psalms 89; Isaiah 2:1–5; Jeremiah 31:31-34; Ezekiel 40-48; Daniel 9-12; Matthew 11:13; 16:18; 18:15-18; 24-25; 26:26-28; Mark 2:21-22; Mark 7:18-19; 14:22-24; Luke 22:19-20; Acts 2:16-21; 2:34-35; 15:13-17; Acts 13:46-47; 17:30; Romans 9-11; 1 Corinthians 11:23-25; 1 Corinthians 15:51-52; 2 Corinthians 3:5-6; Galatians 3:1-6:2; Ephesians 1:7-14; 2:11-18; 3:1-11, Colossians 1:24-28; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-5; Hebrews 7:1-28; 8:6-13; 10:14-18; 12:22-24; 1 Peter 2:9-12; Revelation 4-19
 





Last edited:
Joined
Apr 22, 2017
Messages
1,398
Likes
2,723
#97
@Kung Fu and @Damien50

Excuse me for wading in but I just wanted to say that I don't think there are any "wrong" questions when trying to make sense of things.

Sometimes it is good to see the bigger picture before getting into the details. So...

Perhaps a starting point would to acknowledge that the Qur'an is a message that was given at more or less one point in history, whilst the Bible was revealed over many hundreds of years. The Quran in style is therefore prescriptive whilst the Bible is progressive.

Those of us who have kids understand what "progressive revelation" means in the way we deal with our children. I am different with mine at different ages and expect different things from them. Btw this is just an analogy to help.

God, in His relationship with man in the Bible deals like this - the "faith" chapter in Hebrews is a fantastic sweep through history, showing what faith in God meant. It wasn't about acting on law so much as acting out of faith and relationship with God to do what was asked. E.g. Noah - "Build a Boat", Gideon "Man Up" [my paraphrase].

Even with Jesus, there are the teachings and words He shared with the Jews (and gentiles), then there was the fullness of what they meant when interpreted through His death and resurrection.

There was the expectation of the Messiah looking forward, then the understanding of the Messiah in hindsight.

Jesus doesn't finish speaking till the end if the book of Revelation. To miss this progression in scripture is to miss the meaning.

When you do, it looks like a jigsaw tipped out on the floor. You need wisdom and the guidance of the Holy Spirit to put the pieces together properly.

God bless.

p.s. I just read a fuller and better explanation on the above so I include it here...

Dispensationalism is a system of theology which attempts to develop the Bible’s philosophy of history on the basis of the sovereign rule of God. Dispensationalism represents the whole of Scripture and history as being covered by several administrations of God’s rule. A dispensation is a religious order or system, conceived as divinely instituted, or as a stage in a progressive revelation, expressly adapted to the needs of a particular nation or period of time. The term “dispensation” can be defined as a particular way of God’s administering His rule over the world as He progressively works out His purpose for world history.

Throughout history God has employed several "dispensations" but only one way of salvation. Dispensational Theologians normally name each new dispensation after the new ruling factor or factors:

Dispensation of Innocence - From the creation of man to the fall of man.
Dispensation of Conscience - From the fall of man through the Noahic Flood.
Dispensation of Human Government - From the Noahic Flood to the call of Abraham.
Dispensation of Promise - From God’s call of Abraham to the giving of the Mosaic Law at Mount Sinai.
Dispensation of The Mosaic Law - From the giving of the Mosaic Law at Mount Sinai to the death of Jesus Christ on the Cross at Mount Calvary.
Dispensation of Grace - From Christ on the Cross to His Second Coming.
Dispensation of The Millennium - After the Second Coming of Christ to the release of Satan from the abyss and his final revolt.

The dispensations are chronologically successive. They are not different ways of salvation - the means of salvation has always been by grace through faith. The object of faith has always been God, but the content of faith has changed within different dispensations dependent upon progressive revelation found within His Word.

Genesis 12:3; Deuteronomy 28:25, 64-65; 30:1-5; 2 Samuel 7:8–16; Psalms 89; Isaiah 2:1–5; Jeremiah 31:31-34; Ezekiel 40-48; Daniel 9-12; Matthew 11:13; 16:18; 18:15-18; 24-25; 26:26-28; Mark 2:21-22; Mark 7:18-19; 14:22-24; Luke 22:19-20; Acts 2:16-21; 2:34-35; 15:13-17; Acts 13:46-47; 17:30; Romans 9-11; 1 Corinthians 11:23-25; 1 Corinthians 15:51-52; 2 Corinthians 3:5-6; Galatians 3:1-6:2; Ephesians 1:7-14; 2:11-18; 3:1-11, Colossians 1:24-28; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-5; Hebrews 7:1-28; 8:6-13; 10:14-18; 12:22-24; 1 Peter 2:9-12; Revelation 4-19
I agree. With the institution of the new covenant upon the death and resurrection of Christ a transition from the laws of Moses occurs.

So what is the fulfillment in Matthew 5:18? I'm not of the opinion that it is fulfilling revelations.
 





Joined
Mar 15, 2017
Messages
3,920
Likes
6,447
#98
I agree. With the institution of the new covenant upon the death and resurrection of Christ a transition from the laws of Moses occurs.

So what is the fulfillment in Matthew 5:18? I'm not of the opinion that it is fulfilling revelations.
How about this from a commentary on Matthew 5:18?

Till all be fulfilled.--Literally, Till all things have come to pass. The words in the English version suggest an identity with the "fulfil" of Matthew 5:17, which is not found in the Greek. The same formula is used in the Greek of Matthew 24:34. The "all things" in both cases are the great facts of our Lord's life, death, resurrection, and the establishment of the kingdom of God. So taken, we find that the words do not assert, as at first they seem to do, the perpetual obligation even of the details of the Law, but the limit up to which the obligation was to last; and they are therefore not inconsistent with the words which speak of the system of the Law as a whole as "decaying and waxing old, and ready to vanish away" (Hebrews 8:13). The two "untils" have each of them their significance. Each "jot" or "tittle "must first complete its work; then, and not till then, will it pass away.

http://biblehub.com/matthew/5-18.htm
 





Joined
Apr 22, 2017
Messages
1,398
Likes
2,723
#99
How about this from a commentary on Matthew 5:18?

Till all be fulfilled.--Literally, Till all things have come to pass. The words in the English version suggest an identity with the "fulfil" of Matthew 5:17, which is not found in the Greek. The same formula is used in the Greek of Matthew 24:34. The "all things" in both cases are the great facts of our Lord's life, death, resurrection, and the establishment of the kingdom of God. So taken, we find that the words do not assert, as at first they seem to do, the perpetual obligation even of the details of the Law, but the limit up to which the obligation was to last; and they are therefore not inconsistent with the words which speak of the system of the Law as a whole as "decaying and waxing old, and ready to vanish away" (Hebrews 8:13). The two "untils" have each of them their significance. Each "jot" or "tittle "must first complete its work; then, and not till then, will it pass away.

http://biblehub.com/matthew/5-18.htm
That was my understanding. Had to cross check lol
 





Joined
Mar 24, 2017
Messages
3,783
Likes
5,991
I agree. With the institution of the new covenant upon the death and resurrection of Christ a transition from the laws of Moses occurs.

So what is the fulfillment in Matthew 5:18? I'm not of the opinion that it is fulfilling revelations.
Can you reference this "new covenant"?