Comparing Christianity and Islam

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#62
Muslims are "saved" (I don't know if that's the right term, but I think you know what I mean) by works.
This is the willful misconception many Christians have about Islam. Shame really. No matter how many times a Muslim explains the reality of salvation in Islam to them, they still refuse to accept it. The Almighty will judge between us in the matters in which we differ.
 





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#63
This is the willful misconception many Christians have about Islam. Shame really. No matter how many times a Muslim explains the reality of salvation in Islam to them, they still refuse to accept it. The Almighty will judge between us in the matters in which we differ.
I think it's a really productive discussion to have - there in no value in arguing "against" a faith you mischaracterise. It is much better to consider the big picture of the nature of soul of Man, the nature of God and His revelation on what he wants us to do (and has done Himself) to restore that relationship.
 





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#64
This is the willful misconception many Christians have about Islam. Shame really. No matter how many times a Muslim explains the reality of salvation in Islam to them, they still refuse to accept it. The Almighty will judge between us in the matters in which we differ.
Please explain how you have assurance of salvation through Islam. I do really want to know.

Another difference between Islam and Christianity is the concept of a missionary. Christians are told to spread the good news of Jesus Christ by telling the world about him. Islam doesn't do this, as far as I know, so that may be why it's not widely known how Islamic salvation works.

So tell us, how does it work? Say I wanted to convert to Islam right now. What would I have to do?
 





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#65
"Salvation in Islam has been explained many times on these boards.
I could even copy and paste from GS, myself and Haich and KF among others who have spent time explaining this concept.
It is the last 2 days of Ramadan btw.


Here is an excerpt from an article:
for full article please go here:
http://www.islamforchristians.com/salvation-islam/

Salvation in Islam
"Islam teaches that Jesus did not come to atone for the sins of humankind; rather, his purpose was to reaffirm the message of the Prophets (peace be upon them) before him.

None has the right to be worshipped but God, the One and the Only True Allah… (Aal `Imran 3:62)

The Islamic belief about Jesus’ crucifixion and death is clear. He did not die to atone for humankind’s sins. There was a plot to crucify Jesus but it did not succeed; he did not die but rather ascended into heaven. In the last days leading up to the Day of Judgment, Jesus will return to this world and continue to spread the belief in the Oneness of Allah. The Qur’an tells us that on the Day of Judgment Jesus will deny ever asking the people to worship him instead of, or along with Allah

And [beware the Day] when Allah will say, “O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, ‘Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah ?'” He will say, “Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right. If I had said it, You would have known it. You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is within Yourself. Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen. I said not to them except what You commanded me – to worship Allah , my Lord and your Lord. And I was a witness over them as long as I was among them; but when You took me up, You were the Observer over them, and You are, over all things, Witness. (Al-Ma’idah 5:116-117)

Islam conducts that a human being could attain salvation through the worship of Allah alone. A person must believe in the Oneness of Allah and not associating any partner with him, which is known in Islam as Tawhid (faith). Worship Allah and follow his commandments is the same message delivered by all the Prophets since Adam, the father of mankind, until Muhammad, last Prophet to humanity; one God, without partners, sons, or daughters. In this way, salvation can be achieved through sincere worship.

As mentioned earlier, Islam rejects the idea that a human being is born sinner due to the original sin of Adam. On the contrary, Islam teaches us that a human being is born sinless and inclined to worship Allah. This fact is proven true by a study conducted by Oxford University over three years. To keep the state of sinlessness, a human being must only follow the commandments of Allah and strive to live a righteous life. In case a person indulges into sins, he/she distant themselves from the mercy of Allah, however, sincere repentance brings a person back to Allah.

Allah says in the Qur’an:

And no bearer of burdens will bear the burden of another… (Fatir 35:18)

This leads us to the fundamental question, what is the mechanism of being sinless in Islam? What could a human being do in case of committing a sin?

It is a part of the human nature that a human being is prone to error and mistake whether deliberately or just a bad intention. Islam teaches us that Allah is the Most forgiving, Most Gracious, and the Most Merciful. Therefore, as human beings, we are constantly in need of forgiveness. Throughout the Qur’an Allah continually asks us to turn to Him in repentance and ask for His forgiveness. This is the road to salvation. This is our rescue from destruction. Muslims believe that this concept of repentance is shared by all the Prophets including Moses and Jesus not something newly brought by Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). It is narrated that the Prophet Muhammad said: “The one who repents from sin is like one who did not sin.” (Ibn Majah)"
 





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#66
Please explain how you have assurance of salvation through Islam. I do really want to know.

Another difference between Islam and Christianity is the concept of a missionary. Christians are told to spread the good news of Jesus Christ by telling the world about him. Islam doesn't do this, as far as I know, so that may be why it's not widely known how Islamic salvation works.

So tell us, how does it work? Say I wanted to convert to Islam right now. What would I have to do?
Islamic salvation is probably the easiest concept out there
1- let your virtues be more than your sins
2- Mercy of God
= Heaven.

How is that so "confusing"? Its not that the way of Salvation in Islam is not widely known, its just that you have a habit of repeating the same thing in every thread no matter how many times people answer them.
 





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#68
Islamic salvation is probably the easiest concept out there
1- let your virtues be more than your sins
2- Mercy of God
= Heaven.

How is that so "confusing"? Its not that the way of Salvation in Islam is not widely known, its just that you have a habit of repeating the same thing in every thread no matter how many times people answer them.
51% good deeds + 49% sins = heaven
51% sins + 49% good deeds = hell
50/50 = roll dice

It is actually simple. No assurances until one’s death
 





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#69
Rinse and repeat:

"DesertRose, post: 125584, member: 458"]
“…Be aware that none among you can attain Salvation only by virtue of his own deeds.”


The people asked him:
“O Allah’s Messenger, not even you?”

To which, the Prophet (SallAllahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) replied:

“Not even me, unless Allah encompasses me with His Mercy and Grace.”

It is known that the most righteous from humanity was Prophet Muhammad, SallAllahu Alayhi Wa Sallam, yet we find that even he would only enter Paradise due to Allah’s Grace. This becomes even clearer in another Prophetic Saying (hadeeth) in which we are told of the man who did good deeds his entire life and then thinks he will enter into Paradise on this basis, without the Grace of Allah. Such a person—who is arrogant enough to think that his own deeds will earn him Paradise—will be thrown into Hell, because He disbelieved in Allah’s Grace."
 





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#71
Say I wanted to convert to Islam right now. What would I have to do?
Believe and declare that there is no deity worthy of being worshiped but Allah (God- He is One and has no sons or partners) and Muhammad is His Messenger. Since you come from a Chrsitian background, you would want to affirm that Jesus is also God's Messenger. Simple.

After that all your past sins are wiped away -

you have a clean slate and fresh start to acquire knowledge and grow strong in your faith (belief in God, His angels, books , messengers, Last day and Divine Decree - the good and bad of it)

while acting upon the pillars and tenets that your Creator has ordained for you in this life such as, praying, fasting, giving charity, and all the other good things that will bring you a happy peaceful life in this world, salvation from the Fire, and the best in the afterLife, Paradise where you would see your Lord, by His Grace, if you truly believed.

End of Ramadan so that is my "missionary call" to you Thudnarian and anyone else who wishes to hear it. Peace.
 





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#72
Salvation in Islam has been explained many times on these boards.
I could even copy and paste from GS, myself and Haich and KF among others who have spent time explaining this concept.
It is the last 2 days of Ramadan btw.
Here's another difference between Islam and Christianity. Ask any Christian how to be saved and they will drop what they're doing and show you how.

More often than not, any time I ask a question about Islam, I get the old, "it's been posted so many times, etc." So post it again. What's the problem? :)
 





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#73
Here's another difference between Islam and Christianity. Ask any Christian how to be saved and they will drop what they're doing and show you how.

More often than not, any time I ask a question about Islam, I get the old, "it's been posted so many times, etc." So post it again. What's the problem? :)
Ofcourse they would show us, thats what happens when someone pays attention to you once in a million years.
 





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#74
Thank you. Now I have some questions.

Believe and declare that there is no deity worthy of being worshiped but Allah (God- He is One and has no sons or partners) and Muhammad is His Messenger.
Who is Allah? Where can I find that in the Quran?

Since you come from a Chrsitian background, you would want to affirm that Jesus is also God's Messenger. Simple.
I already have affirmed that Jesus Christ is God's messenger.

After that all your past sins are wiped away -
Where can I find that in the Quran?

praying, fasting, giving charity, and all the other good things that will bring you a happy peaceful life in this world
What does my salvation in Islam rest on? Doing these things? If I didn't do them, would I still be saved?

To you as well.
 





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#75
More often than not, any time I ask a question about Islam, I get the old, "it's been posted so many times, etc." So post it again. What's the problem? :)
You have a point.:oops:

TBH I am not 100% and for whatever reason instead of lying down and twiddling my thumbs.... I am back on this site .. :)

What does my salvation in Islam rest on? Doing these things? If I didn't do them, would I still be saved?
Anyway here is info on the last question and I think it is worth the read. BTW it is not the full dialogue just the relevant part if you want to read from the beginning please go to the link.
God willing, sister gs will address the rest and now I will go to rest. bye.

"Islam offers a guarantee to every sincere Muslim who obeys Allaah and remains in this state of devotion until he dies, that he will definitely enter Paradise. Allaah says in the Qur’aan (interpretation of the meanings):

“But those who believe and do deeds of righteousness, We shall admit them to the Gardens under which rivers flow (i.e., in Paradise), to dwell therein forever. Allaah’s promise is the truth, and whose words can be truer than those of Allaah? (Of course, none).” [al-Nisa’ 4:122]
“Allaah has promised those who believe and do deeds of righteousness, that for them there is forgiveness and a great reward (i.e., Paradise).” [al-Maa’idah 5:9]
“(They will enter) ‘Adn (Eden) Paradise (everlasting Gardens), which the Most Beneficent (Allaah) has promised to His servants in the unseen: verily, His promise must come to pass.” [Maryam 19:61]
“Say: ‘Is that (torment) better, or the Paradise of Eternity promised to the muttaqeen (pious and righteous persons)? It will be theirs as a reward and final destination.” [al-Furqaan 25:15]
“But those who fear Allaah and keep their duty to their Lord (Allaah), for them are built lofty rooms, one above another, under which rivers flow (i.e., Paradise). (This is) the Promise of Allaah, and Allaah does not fail in (His) promise.” [al-Zumar 39:20]


Islam also guarantees the disbeliever who ignores the commands of Allaah that he will definitely enter Hell. Allaah says (interpretation of the meanings):


“Allaah has promised the hypocrites, men and women, and the disbelievers, the Fire of Hell, therein shall they abide. It will suffice them. Allaah has cursed them and for them is the lasting torment.” [al-Tawbah 9:68]
“But those who disbelieve, for them will be the Fire of Hell. Neither will it have a complete killing effect on them so that they die, nor shall its torment be lightened for them. Thus do We requite every disbeliever!” [Faatir 35:36]


Allaah will say to the disbelievers on the Day of Judgement (interpretation of the meaning):


“This is Hell which you were promised! Burn therein this Day, for that you used to disbelieve!” [Yaa-Seen 36:63-64]

Allaah will not go back on His promise to either the believers or the disbelievers. He describes how both of them will be at the end of the Day of Judgement (interpretation of the meaning):


“And the dwellers of Paradise will call out to the dwellers of the Fire (saying): ‘We have indeed found true what our Lord had promised us; have you also found true, what your Lord promised (warnings, etc.)?’ They shall say, ‘Yes.’ Then a crier will proclaim between them: ‘The Curse of Allaah is on the zaalimeen (polytheists and wrongdoers, etc.).” [al-A’raaf 7:44]

Everyone who believes and does righteous deeds, and dies in this state, will definitely enter Paradise. Everyone who disbelieves and does evil deeds, and dies in this state, will definitely enter Hell.

One of the great guiding principles of Islam is that the believer should tread a path between fear and hope. He should not take it for granted that he will enter Paradise, because this will make him complacent, and he does not know in what state he will die. Nor should he assume that he is going to Hell, because this is despairing of the mercy of Allaah, which is forbidden. So the believer does righteous deeds, and hopes that Allaah will reward him for them, and he avoids evil deeds out of fear of the punishment of Allaah. If he commits a sin, he repents in order to gain forgiveness and protect himself from the punishment of Hell. Allaah forgives all sins and accepts the repentance of those who repent. If a believer fears that the good deeds he has sent on before him are not enough, as you suggest, then he will increase his efforts, in fear and hope. No matter how many righteous deeds he has sent on before him, he cannot rely on them and take them for granted, or else he will be doomed. He keeps striving and hoping for reward, and at the same time he fears lest his deeds be contaminated with any element of showing off, self-admiration, or anything that will lead to them being rejected by Allaah. Allaah describes the believers (interpretation of the meaning):


“… those who give that (their charity) which they give (and also do other good deeds) with their hearts full of fear (whether their alms and charity, etc.) have been accepted or not), because they are sure to return to their Lord (for reckoning).” [al-Mu’minoon 23:60]

So the believer keeps on striving, fearing and hoping, until he meets his Lord, believing in Tawheed (Divine Unity) and doing righteous deeds, and earns the pleasure of his Lord and Paradise. If you think about the matter, you will realize that these are the right motives for action, and that righteousness cannot be achieved in this life in any other way.

As regards what you say about original sin, this matter needs to be approached from several angles.

Firstly: The Islamic belief concerning human sin is: the individual bears the responsibility for his own sin; no one else should bear this burden for him, nor should he bear the burden for anyone else. Allah says (interpretation of the meaning): “And no bearer of burdens shall bear another’s burden…” [Faatir 35:18]. This refutes the idea of original sin. If the father commits a sin, what fault is that of his children and grandchildren? Why should they bear the burden of a sin that someone else committed? The Christian belief that the descendents should bear the sin of their father is the essence of injustice. How can any sane person say that the sin should be carried down the centuries by all of humanity, or that the children, grandchildren and subsequent descendants should be tainted because of their father’s sin?

Secondly, making mistakes is a part of human nature. Our Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said, “Every son of Aadam is bound to commit sins…” (reported by al-Tirmidhi, 2423), but Allaah has not left man unable to do anything about the mistakes that he makes. He gives man the opportunity to repent, and so the hadeeth (words of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) quoted above concludes: “…and the best of those who commit sins are those who repent.” The mercy of Allaah is clear in the teachings of Islam, as Allaah calls His servants (interpretation of the meaning): “Say, ‘O My servants who have transgressed against themselves (by committing evil deeds and sins)! Despair not of the Mercy of Allaah, verily Allaah forgives all sins. Truly, He is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.” [al-Zumar 39:53]

This is human nature, and this is the solution to the problem of sin. But to make this human nature, which is bound to make mistakes, a barrier between the servant and his Lord which will prevent him from ever earning the pleasure of God, and to say that the only way to reach God is through His sending His (so-called) son down to earth to be humiliated and crucified while his father looks on, so that mankind could be forgiven, is an extremely odd idea. Just describing it sounds so unlikely that there is no longer any need to refute it in detail. Once, when discussing this issue with a Christian, I said, “If you say that God sent down His son to be crucified to atone for the sins of the people alive at his time and afterwards, what about those who had come before and died as sinners before the time of Christ, and had no opportunity to know about him and believe in the Crucifixion so that their sins might be forgiven?” All he could say was: “No doubt our priests have an answer to that!” Even if they do have an answer, it is bound to be concocted. There is no real answer.

If you really examine the Christian teaching on human sin with an open mind, you will see that they say that God sacrificed His only son to atone for the sins of mankind, and that this son was a god. If it was true that he was a god who was beaten, insulted and crucified, and died, then this doctrine contains elements of blasphemy because it accuses God of weakness and helplessness. Is God really incapable of forgiving the sins of all His servants with just one word? If He is Able to do all things (and the Christians do not dispute this fact), then why would He need to sacrifice His son in order to achieve the same thing? (Glorified and exalted be He far above what the wrongdoers say about Him!)


“He is the Originator of the heavens and the earth. How can He have children when He has no wife? He created all things and He is the All-Knower of everything.” [al-An’aam 6:101 – interpretation of the meaning]

An ordinary man would not accept anyone harming his child; he would come to his defence, and would never hand him over to an enemy who would insult him, let alone leave him to face the worst kind of death. If this is the attitude of a mere created being, what then of the Creator?

Thirdly, the Christian doctrine of original sin has a negative effect because, as you have mentioned, it does not require any duties of man other than to believe that God sent His son to this earth to be crucified and to die to atone for the sins of mankind. Thus a person becomes a Christian and is to earn the pleasure of God and be admitted to heaven. Moreover, the Christian believes that everything that happened to the son of God was only to atone for his sins, past present and future, so there is no need to wonder why Christian societies have seen such an increase in murder, r*pe, robbery, alcoholism and other problems. After all, did not Christ die to atone for their sins, and haven’t their sins been wiped out, so why should they stop doing these things? Tell me, by your Lord, why do you sometimes execute murderers, or put criminals in jail, or punish them in other ways, if you believe that the criminal’s sins have all be atoned for and forgiven through the blood of Christ? Is this not a strange contradiction?

You ask why, if the Muslims are the chosen people of mankind, they do not spread their religion. The fact of the matter is that sincere Muslims have always sought to do just that. How else could Islam have spread from Makkah to Indonesia, Siberia, North Africa, Bosnia, South Africa and all parts of the world, East and West? The faults in the behaviour of some modern Muslims cannot be blamed on Islam; those faults are the result of going against Islamic teachings. It is not fair to blame the religion for the faults of some of its adherents who have gone against it or gone astray. Are Muslims not being more just than Christians when they affirm that the sinner is threatened with the punishment of Allaah unless he repents, and that for some sins there is a deterrent, a punishment to be carried out in this world as an expiation for the Hereafter, as in the case of the punishments for murder, theft, fornication/adultery, etc.?

What you say about it be so easy to become a Christian, as compared to becoming a Muslim, is clearly mistaken. The key to Islam is no more than two simple phrases: “Ash-hadu an laa ilaaha ill-Allaah wa anna Muhammadan Rasool-Allaah (I bear witness that there is no god except Allaah and that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allaah).” With these few words, a person enters Islam in a matter of seconds. There is no need for baptism or priests, or even to go to a certain place such as a mosque or anywhere else. Compare this with the ridiculous procedures of baptism which the Christians do when they want to admit someone to the Church. Then there is the fact that the Christians venerate the cross on which Jesus was tortured and crucified in great pain – as they claim. They take it as a sacred object of blessing and healing, instead of scorning it and hating it as a symbol of oppression and the worst possible way for the son of God to die!

Do you not see that the Muslims are closer than others to the truth, because they believe in all the Prophets and Messengers, respecting them all and recognizing that all of them taught the truth of Divine Unity (Tawheed) and that each of them was appointed by Allaah and sent to his people with laws that were appropriate to the time and place? When the fair-minded Christian sees the followers of Islam believing in Musa (Moses), ‘Eesaa (Jesus), and Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and in the original Torah and Gospel, as well as the Qur’aan, and sees his own people denying the Prophethood of Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and rejecting the Qur’aan, wouldn’t his open-mindedness make him think that the Muslims are most likely to be right?

You say that the Messiah said, “No one comes to the Father except through me”. We need, first of all, to be sure that these words can truly be attributed to Jesus. Secondly, this is clearly not true. How then could mankind have known God at the times of Nooh (Noah), Hood, Saalih, Yoonus (Jonah), Shu’ayb (Jethro), Ibraaheem (Abraham), Musa (Moses) and other Prophets? If you were to say that during the time of Jesus (upon whom be peace) and up to the time of the Final Prophet, Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) the Children of Israel had no other way to know the religion of Allaah except through the way of Jesus, this would be correct.

Finally, you quote the Messiah as saying, “I and the Father are one”. This is clearly not correct. If we examine the matter objectively, without letting our own desires get in the way, it becomes clear that the conjunction “and” in the phrase “I and the Father” implies that two separate entities are involved. “I” is one entity, and “the Father” is another. If you say, “So-and-so and I”, it is obvious to any rational person that they are two separate people. The equation 1+1+1=1 makes no sense to any rational person, whether he is a mathematician or not.

Finally, I advise you (and I do not think that you will reject this advice) to think deeply about what you have read, putting aside your background, any pre-conceived ideas, your own desires and feelings of attachment to your religion or culture, and to seek guidance sincerely from Allaah. Allaah Most Generous and will never let any of His servants down. Allaah is the One Who guides to the Straight Path, and He is Sufficient for us and is the best disposer of affairs.."

https://islamqa.info/en/2690
 





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#76
The Man Who Committed 99 Murders

There was a man from the Bani Israel who had killed ninety nine people. Then he decided to go out inquiring about [repentance]. He went to a monk and asked him, ‘Is there any repentance?’ He said, ‘No,’ so he killed him. He continued to ask and someone said to him, ‘Go to such and such a town.’ Death overtook him en route. The Angels of mercy and the Angels of punishment argued [regarding who should extract his soul]. Allah revealed to this village [the village he was headed to, to repent] to come near and that village to go further from him. He said, ‘Measure the distance between them, and he was a hand-span nearer to this village, and so he was forgiven
 





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#77
The way I see it, many Christians here think an assured salvation makes Christianity superior, but from what I understand, even Jesus himself states the opposite.

Okay, let me ask a question that I've been wrestling with for weeks...
As an outsider to Christianity, I find the idea of salvation based on faith alone (I mean literally being saved by faith without being righteous ) at odds with these verses:

5 - 19 Whosoever, therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

5 - 20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

7 - 21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Of course, I don't want to claim that I do understand bible perfectly or even that I'm qualified to draw my own conclusions about it, but I don't see why would Jesus teach all these things in the sermon on the mount, if the plan of salvation was to be magically saved by faith alone? I also noticed that he never mentions Jews and Gentiles have different paths of salvation (or maybe I'm missing sth?) Instead what I see is that after his crucifixion, Paul appears out of nowhere and preaches salvation by faith, calling the commandments a curse! which as I see it, is not exactly what Jesus teaches himself. Now I know that's a classic position Muslims normally take towards Paul, but that's not the point. I just want to know, how do you reconcile these verses with the idea of salvation by faith alone? Also, what kind of things Jesus is talking about as the "will of my Father"?

James

2:17 Even so FAITH, if it hath not WORKS, is DEAD, being alone.

2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will SHOW thee my faith BY my works.

2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils (liars) also believe, and tremble.

2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain (worthless) man, that FAITH WITHOUT WORKS is DEAD?

2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by WORKS, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar (and God made him your example)?

2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and BY WORKS was faith (trust in God) MADE PERFECT?

2:23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed ONLY God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

2:24 Ye see then how that by WORKS a man is justified, and NOT by faith only.

2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by WORKS, when she had received the messengers, and had sent [them] out another way?

2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD also.
That was an interesting passage that I find compatible with the verses I mentioned. The question is, why do Christians ignore it?
 





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#78
The way I see it, many Christians here think an assured salvation makes Christianity superior, but from what I understand, even Jesus himself states the opposite.

Okay, let me ask a question that I've been wrestling with for weeks...
As an outsider to Christianity, I find the idea of salvation based on faith alone (I mean literally being saved by faith without being righteous ) at odds with these verses:

5 - 19 Whosoever, therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

5 - 20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

7 - 21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Of course, I don't want to claim that I do understand bible perfectly or even that I'm qualified to draw my own conclusions about it, but I don't see why would Jesus teach all these things in the sermon on the mount, if the plan of salvation was to be magically saved by faith alone? I also noticed that he never mentions Jews and Gentiles have different paths of salvation (or maybe I'm missing sth?) Instead what I see is that after his crucifixion, Paul appears out of nowhere and preaches salvation by faith, calling the commandments a curse! which as I see it, is not exactly what Jesus teaches himself. Now I know that's a classic position Muslims normally take towards Paul, but that's not the point. I just want to know, how do you reconcile these verses with the idea of salvation by faith alone? Also, what kind of things Jesus is talking about as the "will of my Father"?



That was an interesting passage that I find compatible with the verses I mentioned. The question is, why do Christians ignore it?
Paul was speaking of the Mosaic law rather than the commandments. Salvation seals our spiritual from our flesh, a spiritual circumcision based on faith that reconciles what Adam forfeited in the garden and what gets us to Heaven. Though we may reach heaven, our rewards are all dependent on our obedience and our actions through life.

The commandments Jesus spoke of were loving God with all your heart and your neighbor as yourself. It is my belief that when Jesus speaks of doing the will of his father he means it in a figurative sense to symbolize their relationship and emphasize the point of obedience. Jesus isn't God but his word manifested in the flesh sent to do the will of God
 





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#79
The way I see it, many Christians here think an assured salvation makes Christianity superior, but from what I understand, even Jesus himself states the opposite.

Okay, let me ask a question that I've been wrestling with for weeks...
As an outsider to Christianity, I find the idea of salvation based on faith alone (I mean literally being saved by faith without being righteous ) at odds with these verses:

5 - 19 Whosoever, therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

5 - 20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

7 - 21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Of course, I don't want to claim that I do understand bible perfectly or even that I'm qualified to draw my own conclusions about it, but I don't see why would Jesus teach all these things in the sermon on the mount, if the plan of salvation was to be magically saved by faith alone? I also noticed that he never mentions Jews and Gentiles have different paths of salvation (or maybe I'm missing sth?) Instead what I see is that after his crucifixion, Paul appears out of nowhere and preaches salvation by faith, calling the commandments a curse! which as I see it, is not exactly what Jesus teaches himself. Now I know that's a classic position Muslims normally take towards Paul, but that's not the point. I just want to know, how do you reconcile these verses with the idea of salvation by faith alone? Also, what kind of things Jesus is talking about as the "will of my Father"?



That was an interesting passage that I find compatible with the verses I mentioned. The question is, why do Christians ignore it?
John 6:40 King James Version (KJV)
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.


Assurances of Salvation is the greatest gift from God the Father. I have zero doubt I will be in heaven NO MATTER WHAT. That doesn't mean I should be a fool and go commit all kind of sins because God will take my life away.

Romans 8:16 King James Version (KJV)
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:


FYI, Forever Light is NOT a Christian.
 





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#80
Paul was speaking of the Mosaic law rather than the commandments. Salvation seals our spiritual from our flesh, a spiritual circumcision based on faith that reconciles what Adam forfeited in the garden and what gets us to Heaven. Though we may reach heaven, our rewards are all dependent on our obedience and our actions through life.
I know that, but aren't these commandments a higher level of Mosaic Law?
5- 17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
5-18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
5-19 Whosoever, therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.


As I see it, verse 19 is also connected to the previous verses, "therefore" as an indication. Jesus explicitly states that Moses Laws are not to be abolished, and what he teaches will take those laws higher and make those laws complete. Then he connects the kingdom of heaven with those commandments (Which I see as a higher level of Mosaic Law) and makes clear that you're not allowed to play with those commandments, you have to be more righteous than Pharisees to enter heaven. The following commandments he describes are clearly adding to the spiritual side of the Laws. But I don't see anything indicating you can enter heaven just by calling his name, at least not here. He is actually warning not to think like that at the end of the sermon. But that's just my opinion.

The commandments Jesus spoke of were loving God with all your heart and your neighbor as yourself. It is my belief that when Jesus speaks of doing the will of his father he means it in a figurative sense to symbolize their relationship and emphasize the point of obedience. Jesus isn't God but his word manifested in the flesh sent to do the will of God.
From what I gather, you are saying that these commandments are sth different from Mosaic Law. But I think those are a higher level of what Moses taught. The sermon on the mount is so beautiful I can't get enough of it. Also, the last thing you said is quite what I believe, too.
 





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