Comparing Christianity and Islam

Damien50

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I understand. My problem with such view is simple. If this only true way has been revealed at some point of time (let's say, in year 33 A.D.) and has been known only since then, what about all the people before this true way was revealed? How about all the people who have never heard about the true way even after year 33 A.D. around the world until today? No hope? So I see such ideology as very very limiting and not co-inciding with the true nature of all-loving God.
That is a conundrum that isn't really a conundrum. If one is to believe the bible then they must believe that God is just and fair. In believing that He is just and fair, in my opinion, it could be assumed that come judgement he would reveal himself and his word and that would be their chance. Before the gospel of Christ it was to be the duty of His Holy nation of ancient Israel to be the shepherds of the world and bring everyone to Him but they loved the world more than they loved him.

I think every society since before Abraham to now have had a set of morals to live by and should they have never heard of God or the gospel that they will be judged for their actions and offered a chance. For all we know God could reveal himself to the dead but I don't think it is consistent with the character of God to believe that he would leave everyone that we ignorance or unlearned high and dry. He wants fellowship and love and there is no gain to damning people that were never reached.
 

Damien50

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I agree very much that the majority don't represent the individual, however, there's a more generalized result of any ideology and we can try and look at that, even though we know that there's a huge fluctuation between individuals. What I'm looking at and what I'm interested it is where religions or non-religious ideologies lead people eventually through their ideas. Whatever the worldview is, I think, the main question is "What it causes people to do?" You talk about personal sainctification or self-improvement, if I understood you correctly. So you're more interested in the internal aspect? It's very interesting, too. Because it helps humans to dig deeper into the spiritual or the unknown. However, if in the process of doing this the outside world, the society is suffering, do you think it's moral to keep worrying only about your personal quest and progress? Aren't individual and social inter-related?
My interest lies in personal growth for everyone. The outside world is comprised of individuals and if every individual tries to fix themselves individually and collectively as was the intent of having the church. I'm not wholly worrying about myself but you can't edify ad's help guide others when you're blind yourself.
 

Bacsi

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see my sig.
the end.
no need for nonsense arguments and ego games. most the christians and muslims are wrong about the other religion.
the dawah and missionary people usually argue but miss the whole point.
What's the whole point?
 

Bacsi

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That is a conundrum that isn't really a conundrum. If one is to believe the bible then they must believe that God is just and fair. In believing that He is just and fair, in my opinion, it could be assumed that come judgement he would reveal himself and his word and that would be their chance. Before the gospel of Christ it was to be the duty of His Holy nation of ancient Israel to be the shepherds of the world and bring everyone to Him but they loved the world more than they loved him.

I think every society since before Abraham to now have had a set of morals to live by and should they have never heard of God or the gospel that they will be judged for their actions and offered a chance. For all we know God could reveal himself to the dead but I don't think it is consistent with the character of God to believe that he would leave everyone that we ignorance or unlearned high and dry. He wants fellowship and love and there is no gain to damning people that were never reached.
All this sounds like there isn't a single way to salvation
 

Bacsi

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My interest lies in personal growth for everyone. The outside world is comprised of individuals and if every individual tries to fix themselves individually and collectively as was the intent of having the church. I'm not wholly worrying about myself but you can't edify ad's help guide others when you're blind yourself.
This is great. On the practical note, I sometimes see religious people who are so fixated on their own holiness that they ignore the world around them. They become so self-righteous and self-content that they don't really want to "love neighbours" actively. Some even go as far as removing themselves from the society in a monastery or other forms of full or partial seclusion.
 

Red Sky at Morning

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This is great. On the practical note, I sometimes see religious people who are so fixated on their own holiness that they ignore the world around them. They become so self-righteous and self-content that they don't really want to "love neighbours" actively. Some even go as far as removing themselves from the society in a monastery or other forms of full or partial seclusion.
Jesus saw things the same way as @Bacsi here! *

Matthew 23 New King James Version (NKJV)

Woe
to the Scribes and Pharisees


23 Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to His disciples, 2 saying: “The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 Therefore whatever they tell you [a]to observe, that observe and do, but do not do according to their works; for they say, and do not do. 4 For they bind heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on men’s shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers. 5 But all their works they do to be seen by men. They make their phylacteries broad and enlarge the borders of their garments. 6 They love the best places at feasts, the best seats in the synagogues, 7 greetings in the marketplaces, and to be called by men, ‘Rabbi, Rabbi.’ 8 But you, do not be called ‘Rabbi’; for One is your [c]Teacher, [d]the Christ, and you are all brethren. 9 Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. 10 And do not be called teachers; for One is your Teacher, the Christ. 11 But he who is greatest among you shall be your servant. 12 And whoever exalts himself will be [e]humbled, and he who humbles himself will be [f]exalted.

13 “But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in. 14 [g]Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you devour widows’ houses, and for a pretense make long prayers. Therefore you will receive greater condemnation.

15 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel land and sea to win one proselyte, and when he is won, you make him twice as much a son of [h]hell as yourselves.

16 “Woe to you, blind guides, who say, ‘Whoever swears by the temple, it is nothing; but whoever swears by the gold of the temple, he is obliged to perform it.’ 17 Fools and blind! For which is greater, the gold or the temple that sanctifies the gold? 18 And, ‘Whoever swears by the altar, it is nothing; but whoever swears by the gift that is on it, he is obliged to perform it.’ 19 Fools and blind! For which is greater, the gift or the altar that sanctifies the gift? 20 Therefore he who [j]swears by the altar, swears by it and by all things on it. 21 He who swears by the temple, swears by it and by Him who [k]dwells in it. 22 And he who swears by heaven, swears by the throne of God and by Him who sits on it.

23 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone. 24 Blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel!

25 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you cleanse the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of extortion and [l]self-indulgence. 26 Blind Pharisee, first cleanse the inside of the cup and dish, that the outside of them may be clean also.

27 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which indeed appear beautiful outwardly, but inside are full of dead men’s bones and all uncleanness. 28 Even so you also outwardly appear righteous to men, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.

29 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! Because you build the tombs of the prophets and [m]adorn the monuments of the righteous, 30 and say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.’

31 “Therefore you are witnesses against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers’ guilt. 33 Serpents, brood[n] of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell? 34 Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city, 35 that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

Jesus Laments over Jerusalem

37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! 38 See! Your house is left to you desolate; 39 for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’ ”

*Don't reject a Kingdom because its ambassadors have forgotten who they represent.
 
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What's the whole point?
The point is that there is an underlying metaphysical map that balances between the feminine and masculine and relates to God's Transcendence and immanence. you have the logical truth representing God's Transcendence and youhave the mystical truth representing Gods Immanence.
This requires a balance.
...the real Islam is balanced whereas the Islam of the masses today is just a sort of lost and most Muslims don't understand. So u have salafis on one side and Sufis on the other and no one is really balanced.
same as Judaism and Christianity Inc the sects within.

According the the verse in the sig Allah revealed the truth to all of us and what we differ on is due to ignorance of the whole map.

Don't get me wrong even in the Qur'an were told there are some Jews and Christians who are true to their religion and book and it is the same for Muslims.

Another form of truth is objective truth Vs subjective truth. Much of what is in scripture is mythological truth /subjective and its purpose is to shape the minds of people in ways God knows best. We don't possess that wisdom to fully understand the will of God. The verse n the sig makes it clear that Allah could have made us all one but chose not to and therefore the areas we differ on will have a perfect explanation.
For example were it not for the Jews rejecting Jesus the gentiles would not have been reckoned. Likewise it was due to their reshaping of the messianic archetypes in the aftermath of Roman Christianity and persecution during Byzantine times that they then sought to manifest a kingdom in Jerusalem and a new davidic Messiah ..and yet because of the curses in the Torah placed on them after their rejection of Jesus ..what they desired was given to their enemy.
End result that entire davidic and mosaic archetype manifested as prophet Mohammad saw instead..this was also the work of God.
So you then have to really look deep at these archetypes and the parts of scripture that shape them.
How does this extend to the new testament and Qur'an ie what type of things /events/people have and will yet come into the world?
Basically it's better to see how each religion and it's followers have their merits even when they appear fallen/lost.
 

Thunderian

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I think, in today's world, Islam is a much more dynamic religion than Christianity. Christianity has had its high time and is on a decline. I believe the Western world will one day become Muslim.
Christianity is on the decline, but this was prophesied. The western world is easy pickings for Islam because we've kept the good works of the Judeo-Christian values, but we've lost the spiritual and moral underpinning. So now, good works are whatever virtue signalling activity is in vogue, and morality is not based on any authority.

2 Timothy 3:​
1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.​
2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,​
3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,​
4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;​
5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.​
 

Red Sky at Morning

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Christianity is on the decline, but this was prophesied. The western world is easy pickings for Islam because we've kept the good works of the Judeo-Christian values, but we've lost the spiritual and moral underpinning. So now, good works are whatever virtue signalling activity is in vogue, and morality is not based on any authority.

2 Timothy 3:​


1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.​

2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,​

3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,​

4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;​

5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.​
Literally just watching this when your post popped up!

 

Damien50

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All this sounds like there isn't a single way to salvation
Granted that was the gift of the New Testament but it wasn't something that the Hebrews had. If you look at it from the perspective of dispensationalism then everyone will be judged according to the age they lived in whether that be during the time of Moses, Noah, David, Zechariah, Jesus, Timothy, and beyond. To me this is why humans are incapable of judging and why comments like so and so are going to hell or are already in hell is asinine. We lack the capacity to judge, we suffer from sin and hypocrisy. To judge your brother or sister and not truly know why they are an Abusive alcoholic, adulterous, murderers, and so on is a pointless endeavor when we can't ascertain the condition of another's heart the way God can.

I think the whole basis of salvation relies on the individual having a heart willing to accept and submit to God and that transcends our limited time on earth. I'm more worried about the people who have received the gospel and do nothing with it, refuse it, vilify it, revile it, misconstrue it rather than those that missed it.

It's hard for me to imagine even feeling so Holy that I might consider myself superior to my brother when I suffer the same ailment as he. If we're both sick no one is really winning.
 

rainerann

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I understand. My problem with such view is simple. If this only true way has been revealed at some point of time (let's say, in year 33 A.D.) and has been known only since then, what about all the people before this true way was revealed? How about all the people who have never heard about the true way even after year 33 A.D. around the world until today? No hope? So I see such ideology as very very limiting and not co-inciding with the true nature of all-loving God.
"For there is no respect of persons with God. All those who sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all those who sinned under the law will be judged by the law. For the hearers of the law are not righteous before God, but the doers of the law will be declared righteous. So, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, instinctively do what the law demands, they are a law to themselves even though they do not have the law. They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts. Their consciences confirm this. Their competing thoughts will either accuse or excuse them on the day when God judges what people have kept secret, according to my gospel through Christ Jesus. (Romans 2:11-16)

The whole chapter of Romans 2 might be beneficial to your with a question like this.
 

Bacsi

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"For there is no respect of persons with God. All those who sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all those who sinned under the law will be judged by the law. For the hearers of the law are not righteous before God, but the doers of the law will be declared righteous. So, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, instinctively do what the law demands, they are a law to themselves even though they do not have the law. They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts. Their consciences confirm this. Their competing thoughts will either accuse or excuse them on the day when God judges what people have kept secret, according to my gospel through Christ Jesus. (Romans 2:11-16)

The whole chapter of Romans 2 might be beneficial to your with a question like this.
It supports my view: Jésus is not the only way.
 

Damien50

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Before the Bible books were ever written, there were people living all over the globe.
And I think there was a universal acknowledgement of dogs but iniquity and false gods were chosen over Him. There has always been a way.
 

rainerann

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Many contradictions
You wondered how God would respond to people who didn't have the opportunity to be introduced to the Gospel. I explained that the Bible addressed this and recognizes that people are capable of intuitively knowing how to obey the one who created them. So, in conclusion, the Bible does say that Jesus is the only way and that people aren't judged for not being exposed to the Gospel, which seems like it would alleviate the confusion.
 
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